Greystones Marina - Permission GRANTED

Ossie

In their defence of the controversial, so-called "re-development" of Greystones harbour, Wicklow County Council trot out the usual cliched hyperbole about "world class" facilities and a "rejuvenated" harbour.

In reality, this is a monstrosity, the proverbial blot on the landscape, totally out of keeping with the essential low-rise character of Greystones village,which will obscure irreparably the view of the sweep of coastline from Greystones north to Bray Head.

In addition, and to add insult to injury, part of the land being used for this exploitation is public foreshore. This is a worrying and unsettling precedent. Those swashbuckling “developers” merrily carving up the Irish countryside care little for such sentimental twaddle.

“Progress” and “development” are the swashbucklers’ watchwords and those Luddites opposing their vision of how this country should be, would, no doubt, face accusations of not being prepared to move with the times.

Those of us who believe our countryside should be treated in a sympathetic, respectful fashion, rather than having it ravaged by greedy speculators appear to be forever fighting a rearguard action.

No sooner had the proposal to “develop” Dun Laoghaire public baths appear to have been put to bed than this project gets the green light and the same threat lingers over the baths at Blackrock.

Our coast now, as well as the countryside, is up for grabs. Many of us are tired of being lectured by officialdom as to what we want and what’s good for us.

However, in the case of Greystones, that this monstrosity would be permitted was entirely foreseeable in the light of the continuing ribbon developmentsouth of the town between thereand Kilcoole, where ranks ofapartments give it the appearance of downtown Miami, minus the weather.

Sadly, given that we’ve seen once again the same golden circle continue to line up to payhomage at Bertie’s tent at Ballybrit and the Government’s dogged determination to run a motorway alongside the symbol of our national identity at Tara, the vandalism of a run down Victorian harbour is scarcely surprising.

DAVID MARLBOROUGH, KENILWORTH PARK, DUBLIN 6W

westtip

With thousands in opposition they should set up a trust fund and take this all the way they can in the courts it sets up an incredibly horrific precedent re the foreshore and I hope the opposition to this disgusting and shameless decision by An Bord Pleanala continue their excellent opposition to hold it up even further - even if it only wipes the smug faces of those b******d developers - this was a sad day for the entire country not just Greystones.

westtip

Joliegood wrote:

Very sad day indeed for the town. It's hard to accept that the views of the beach and Bray Head will be gone forever. I hope the developers are happy with lining their pockets against the wishes of the vast majority of the town. Shame.

In a way you can't blame those greedy developers - but the town councillors and county councillors are the ones who should hang their heads in shame every last one of them should have their thick lips removed from the bowl of cream they are enjoying as councillors (fat expense accounts [SNIP] etc) and be dutifully removed from office at the next local election - just remember the election of Dublin City Council after the Wood Quay affair - the Greystones Town Councillors who approved this scheme - your days are numbered with your backsides on council seats - you will all be thrown out on your ears - perhaps then you will realise what democray is about. Name them, shame them and throw these them out in a democratic way.

mikedragon32

Westtip, I don't care how aggreived you are, I'll not be allowing any hint of slander, so I've edited that comment out.

Wineman

mikedragon32 wrote:

There is an article on page 14 of todays Irish Times about the development for anyone who is interested. I'll try to post it up from the electronic version later.

Any luck with this article Mike?

Ossie

Wineman wrote:

Any luck with this article Mike?

The process that led to An Bord Pleanala saying 'yes' to the Greystones harbour proposal lacked sustainability, fairness and openness, maintains Evelyn Cawley .

This project has attracted 9,000 objections (more than the number opposing the incinerator in Ringsend), making it one of the most controversial projects in the history of the State. A majority of Greystones voters supported general election candidates opposed to the project.

That this decision was published in August is a clear indication An Bord Pleanala is uncomfortable with the extent of local opposition and is acutely aware its decision is contrary to the expressed wish of the vast majority of the public.

The original project was clear. It was simply to build a working harbour and mitigate against the coastal erosion of Bray Head.

However, the public-private partnership (PPP) between Sispar and Wicklow County Council expanded the brief without prior, proper or fair public consultation to include a major residential development and a "world-class" marina, elements they said were needed to make the project economically viable.

After five days of an oral hearing in April 2006 and major submissions by the Greystones Protection and Development Association, residents of the area and the wider community it was very evident that this expanded proposal was flawed and did not have the community's support. As a result, An Bord Pleanala requested further information and a downsizing of the plan which resulted in the unusual step of reopening the oral hearing last April.

Local people were heartened, believing that having presented significant issues of public concern, including the precedent set by the use of the foreshore to bolster the development's economic viability, in addition to the strength of public opposition, there was enough evidence to prevent this large-scale overdevelopment of a fine Victorian area from going ahead.

The planning process was once again to fail democracy.

An Bord Pleanala's decision to allow this 300 million development attempts to give legal sanction to the concept of local authorities "gifting" parts of the foreshore (a public amenity) and indeed the surrounding seas to private consortia as part of a PPP.

This has implications for all coastal areas. At a minimum one would believe that the Minister for the Environment would safeguard the foreshore as a natural asset from development. This decision will lead to further development in the greater Dublin Bay area.

However, neither the previous nor the present minister has been inclined to take a stand. So do we really need a Department of the Environment if PPPs can ride roughshod over community interests?

The lack of sustainability inherent in this project is evident to anyone even vaguely familiar with Greystones. The town has already almost doubled in size without any significant improvement in road access in the last four years.

Traffic on its main street is congested and Dart services at peak times are oversubscribed. This is even before another 1,500 people and 1,000 car-parking spaces are added to the central area.

Clearly during the construction phase of this project, thousands of additional truck movements will materialise through the main street and other already congested residential areas in order to facilitate this inappropriate and oversized project, whose completion will remove one of the county's most attractive views and landmarks.

As a lesson in democracy, there is much to be learned from the close relationships that have developed between private developers and local authorities. No other community group in Ireland has gathered so much support in objecting to a development. The majority of local representatives on Wicklow County Council and Greystones Town Council voted in favour despite overwhelming public opposition.

This support, together with An Bord Pleanala's subtle coaching of the developers, puts a question mark over the fairness and openness of the process by which this decision has been reached. It is difficult to understand the pro-developer mentality that insists on vandalising the few remaining natural areas of beauty that have not yet been wantonly destroyed by needless overdevelopment.

The short-term financial gains in terms of development levies and other incomes which will accrue to Wicklow County Council from this project have taken precedence over the loss to the community and the environment.

Our legacy to the next generation will be much the poorer.

Evelyn Cawley is spokeswoman for the GPDA

matt-dublin

westtip wrote:

With thousands in opposition they should set up a trust fund and take this all the way they can in the courts it sets up an incredibly horrific precedent re the foreshore and I hope the opposition to this disgusting and shameless decision by An Bord Pleanala continue their excellent opposition to hold it up even further - even if it only wipes the smug faces of those b******d developers - this was a sad day for the entire country not just Greystones.

ha ha set up a trust fund...

people objected to it and that about as far as they'll go,
i would say 1 in every 1000 objecters would put their own money to it!

fishdog

Please correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding that the two points below are correct:

Social & affordable housing in this project = 0

Access to the marina to the general public (other than those of us fortunate to own boats there) = 0

matt-dublin

Ossie wrote:

The process that led to An Bord Pleanala saying 'yes' to the Greystones harbour proposal lacked sustainability, fairness and openness, maintains Evelyn Cawley .

This project has attracted 9,000 objections (more than the number opposing the incinerator in Ringsend), making it one of the most controversial projects in the history of the State. A majority of Greystones voters supported general election candidates opposed to the project.

That this decision was published in August is a clear indication An Bord Pleanala is uncomfortable with the extent of local opposition and is acutely aware its decision is contrary to the expressed wish of the vast majority of the public.

The original project was clear. It was simply to build a working harbour and mitigate against the coastal erosion of Bray Head.

However, the public-private partnership (PPP) between Sispar and Wicklow County Council expanded the brief without prior, proper or fair public consultation to include a major residential development and a "world-class" marina, elements they said were needed to make the project economically viable.

After five days of an oral hearing in April 2006 and major submissions by the Greystones Protection and Development Association, residents of the area and the wider community it was very evident that this expanded proposal was flawed and did not have the community's support. As a result, An Bord Pleanala requested further information and a downsizing of the plan which resulted in the unusual step of reopening the oral hearing last April.

Local people were heartened, believing that having presented significant issues of public concern, including the precedent set by the use of the foreshore to bolster the development's economic viability, in addition to the strength of public opposition, there was enough evidence to prevent this large-scale overdevelopment of a fine Victorian area from going ahead.

The planning process was once again to fail democracy.

An Bord Pleanala's decision to allow this 300 million development attempts to give legal sanction to the concept of local authorities "gifting" parts of the foreshore (a public amenity) and indeed the surrounding seas to private consortia as part of a PPP.

This has implications for all coastal areas. At a minimum one would believe that the Minister for the Environment would safeguard the foreshore as a natural asset from development. This decision will lead to further development in the greater Dublin Bay area.

However, neither the previous nor the present minister has been inclined to take a stand. So do we really need a Department of the Environment if PPPs can ride roughshod over community interests?

The lack of sustainability inherent in this project is evident to anyone even vaguely familiar with Greystones. The town has already almost doubled in size without any significant improvement in road access in the last four years.

Traffic on its main street is congested and Dart services at peak times are oversubscribed. This is even before another 1,500 people and 1,000 car-parking spaces are added to the central area.

Clearly during the construction phase of this project, thousands of additional truck movements will materialise through the main street and other already congested residential areas in order to facilitate this inappropriate and oversized project, whose completion will remove one of the county's most attractive views and landmarks.

As a lesson in democracy, there is much to be learned from the close relationships that have developed between private developers and local authorities. No other community group in Ireland has gathered so much support in objecting to a development. The majority of local representatives on Wicklow County Council and Greystones Town Council voted in favour despite overwhelming public opposition.

This support, together with An Bord Pleanala's subtle coaching of the developers, puts a question mark over the fairness and openness of the process by which this decision has been reached. It is difficult to understand the pro-developer mentality that insists on vandalising the few remaining natural areas of beauty that have not yet been wantonly destroyed by needless overdevelopment.

The short-term financial gains in terms of development levies and other incomes which will accrue to Wicklow County Council from this project have taken precedence over the loss to the community and the environment.

Our legacy to the next generation will be much the poorer.

Evelyn Cawley is spokeswoman for the GPDA

ossie, there was also another article pro-marina that you should put up, putting only the abti-marina article up is biased

fishdog

You would be suprised Matt. I sold my house there because of it! That is going alot further than just objecting;

matt-dublin

fishdog wrote:

Please correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding that the two points below are correct:

Social & affordable housing in this project = 0

Access to the marina to the general public (other than those of us fortunate to own boats there) = 0

the marina will be a private marina, IE you will have to buy/lease a birth to get onto it.

The piers will be public.

otherwise you would get everyone and their pet monkeys going onto the marina and stealing stuff off boats.

matt-dublin

fishdog wrote:

You would be suprised Matt. I sold my house there because of it! That is going alot further than just objecting;

thats going a bit overboard now!

where did you live? charlesland?

if so.. you won't even see it from there!

matt-dublin

personally, all arguements aside, i think it looks quote well,

here's a photomontage of what it will look like from the junction of cliff and beach road (where the triangle thingy is)
(attached file)

i got this from here (huge file, 65MB) http://www.wicklow.ie/specialprojects/Greystones%20Additional%20Information/Volume%202/AMENDMENTS%20TO%20THE%20EIS/6_greystones%20HI%20RES%20v1.pdf

mikedragon32

matt-dublin wrote:

ossie, there was also another article pro-marina that you should put up, putting only the abti-marina article up is biased

Indeed it is biased. Here's the other side:

An Bord Pleanála's recent go-ahead for the Greystones harbour marina and housing development will deliver a world-class facility, argues Sean Quirke .

Over the next few years the people of Greystones and north Wicklow will be able to enjoy a wide range of new amenities in the currently derelict harbour area, including a spectacular new public square, facilities for local sporting clubs, a new public beach and park, boardwalk, piers and better access to the cliff walk to Bray.

Throughout all the discussion and debate, there has been a general agreement from both sides that something needs to be done about the rundown and underused harbour. The scheme which will now be built was selected after a public procurement process where the emphasis was placed on the quality of architecture and public realm proposed.

The project is one of the most innovative and visionary projects undertaken by a local authority in this country which will see more than €50 million worth of public facilities provided as part of its €300 million cost. It is a public-private partnership between Wicklow County Council and Sispar, a joint venture company made up of John Sisk and Son Ltd and Park Developments.

The continued growth of the Greystones/Delgany area will see the population double between 2002 and 2016, bringing with it increased demands for access to high-quality amenity areas.

Taken together with the recently-opened Charlesland recreational complex and the swimming pool and community hall under construction, the harbour's redevelopment will ensure that the residents of Greystones will be able to avail of amenities unrivalled in most towns in Ireland.

The community club facilities provided as part of the project include those for the Sea Scouts and sailing, ridge angling, rowing and diving clubs. The 16-acre public park will add to the amenity value and act as a hugely improved gateway to the spectacular Greystones to Bray cliff walk.

The plans have had a long and thorough examination in the planning process at local and national level. In 2005, more than 1,000 people visited an exhibition of the plans when they were put on public display. Comments led to amendments to the development.

There were 10 days of oral hearings conducted over two sittings by an inspector of An Bord Pleanála when the arguments of those in favour of and opposed to the development were extensively articulated and supported by their documentary submissions.

Indeed, some of the points made by those opposed to the development at the first oral hearing seem to have subsequently made an impact with the board, which sought additional information from Sispar and the county council to reduce the residential and commercial component of the development and made a number of other significant changes. A major component of this was the construction of a dramatic new public square on the waterfront. The square, about the size of Smithfield in Dublin, will be a focal point for the town at the heart of the old harbour area.

This week's decision strikes a fair balance between both sides of the debate. Divergent views have been expressed but throughout it has had the support of eight of the nine members of Greystones Town Council, the Chamber of Commerce and the Harbour Users Group.

The county council and Sispar have already set out the detailed local consultation measures they propose while the development is under way. These have been endorsed by one of the board's conditions, which states that before the development starts a local liaison committee should be set up to act as a forum for disseminating information on planning and construction work. The council and company will continue to work closely with local organisations, residents' groups and schools to ensure that inconvenience caused by construction work is minimised.

The board's approval set out conditions about road access to the site and traffic calming, reducing road traffic by bringing some materials in by sea and hours of operation on site. Work is expected to begin in the autumn and will be completed within four to five years.

Now it is time for all of us who have discussed this issue for the last four years to move forward together to ensure Greystones gets a world-class harbour and a range of resources for the community that will be the envy of the country.

Sean Quirke is director of services with Wicklow County Council.

Joliegood

matt-dublin wrote:

personally, all arguements aside, i think it looks quote well,

here's a photomontage of what it will look like from the junction of cliff and beach road (where the triangle thingy is)
(attached file)

i got this from here (huge file, 65MB) http://www.wicklow.ie/specialprojects/Greystones%20Additional%20Information/Volume%202/AMENDMENTS%20TO%20THE%20EIS/6_greystones%20HI%20RES%20v1.pdf

Just had a look at view 10 on this. The impact on the current residents is particullarly galling.

foxy06

I'd hate to be the person living in the house in view 19. There sea view will be turned into an apartment view.

Joliegood

foxy06 wrote:

I'd hate to be the person living in the house in view 19. There sea view will be turned into an apartment view.

That's the one I meant Foxy, it's on page 19 put listed as view 10 on the file.

Horrible, having that view taken away from you. Never mind 5 years (at least) of noise and dust.

woodser

This thread is going nowhere fast people are posting lenghty posts about arguments they have.
The basic reality is that the bulldozers are going to move in in September or so I hear from the developers and the project will be fully complete in 2011.
So what everyone should be focussing on here is that we all know beforehand what the 13 conditions attached are and what is the method of policing these and making sure that as some poster mentioned that they are all complied with and how is compliance enforced and breaches penalised.

To illustrate this.One of the conditions attached to the new pool was that all construction traffic would come down the S.A.R. well i can tell you that 8 a.m. every morning this week I encountered trucks causing chaos at the Wicklow Arms bends bearing the same name as the onsite contractor .I called the planning enforcement office after 20 min delay and much reversing this morning .They werent even aware of this stipulation .I was told that if what I was saying were true they'd issue a WARNING.:mad: I got a call at 4 p.m. saying they agreed with what I said and had found the stipulation and will be writing to the contractor in the coming weeks informing of the breach of condition :rolleyes: --Holy jaysus.So I asked what would happen if it persisted .Well then I was told.
I would have to make a statement to the Gardai. The Planning Enforcement office W.C.C., The Dept of the Environment and Local Govt who oversee the project .The Dept of Tourism Sport and Recreation who grant aided the project and again to W.C.C. who awarded the tender.If any of these decided to pursue this I would have to come to court as their witness.Aw jaysus it'd be easier and less painful to seduce Mary Harney.

cheers

Joliegood wrote:

That's the one I meant Foxy, it's on page 19 put listed as view 10 on the file.

Horrible, having that view taken away from you. Never mind 5 years (at least) of noise and dust.

I think people like these that probably paid higher money for their house because of the sea views should be compensated by sisk and the council.!

fishdog

Matt the house that I lived in was about 20 yards from the sailing club, not Charlesland!
I would not describe my decision as "overboard". Like most people living in the area directly affected by the marina I am appalled!


You do not seem bothered that only people who "buy/lease" a birth will get on it. This is not normal in most countries. It is hardley for "the people of Greystones" then is it?? Is it just for a select few that have the money and connections to enjoy.

matt-dublin

fishdog wrote:

You do not seem bothered that only people who "buy/lease" a birth will get on it. This is not normal in most countries. It is hardley for "the people of Greystones" then is it?? Is it just for a select few that have the money and connections to enjoy.

Actually it is normal in most countries...

Access to all marinas is policed,

Porta banus, Dun Laoghaire, Howth YC, Malahide YC

You need access cards to get onto them all!!

I don't know where you get your information from regarding marinas, but if you don't have a boat on one, or you're not going to a boat you have no need to be on a marina!

The piers on both side will be open to public access.

If the marina is going to be open to public access then there is huge a liability for those who will have births there, as in vandalism to boats, theft of equipment etc etc.

Also there will be availability for temporary births, usually charged on a per night basis for over nighters and tourists who bring boats in.

All of the boats on the marina will be private, so the public should have no right to go in there unless you own or are a passanger in one of the boats.

I think you need to check your source of information before you go blasting private marinas

fishdog

Sorry to upset you Matt but in France for example the general public can walk along the marina without owning boats! I have done this many times myself. It can be very nice. I dont know what you mean by "blasting".

Access to all marinas is policed,

Sorry this is rubbish!

I don't know where you get your information from regarding marinas

Personal experience!

but if you don't have a boat on one, or you're not going to a boat you have no need to be on a marina!

I suppose you may have no need to enjoy a public park either, but it can be nice!

Most people can not afford to own the type of boats that will end up in a marina such as this. It would be nice for the people of Greystones to at least be able to salvage something out of this huge mistake that is being forced on us by being permitted to walk along and admire the boats close up!

matt-dublin

Sorry Fishdog, but I think you need to look again, alot of the marinas in france are unpoliceable as they are directly along harbour walls which are a little higher than water level, and spread out over much further areas.

The marina is going to be in similar design to Dun Laoghaire Marina, literally just to hold boats, with pontoons that are no wider than 3.5 feet, with no guard rails. Which brings into the equation, public liability.

Also in france, where most of those public marinas are (perpignan for example) they don't have hoodlums and vandals like we do here.

I'd like you to try and go get onto Dun Laoghaire Marina without knowing someone there or owning a boat.

I've a lot of experience with marinas, being a competant sailor, And i've been to plenty around the world.

Porto Banus for example, operates a similar layout to French Marinas, but is heavily policed by private security firms, and the floating marina (similar to dun laoghaire) is protected by key access and security guard.

You will be able to walk along the pier and admire the boats, you won't be further than 20 feet away from them. You may be a good person and just want to admire the boats, but for 1 of you , there's 4 nacker kids that will be on board the boats stealing stuff, and vandalising.

and if you tell me im wrong you're simply being naive. (no personal abuse intended) but I'm sorry, we don't lieve in france, if you want an open marina go live there.

fishdog

Done a little sailing myself Matt, and I know what you are saying. I sailed out of Howth marina and will never forget the security/access difference between the marina experience there and what I found at the other end of my little trip to France.

Also in france, where most of those public marinas are (perpignan for example) they don't have hoodlums and vandals like we do here.

So maybe we are not ready for a marina here

When I thing of marina I think of beautiful images that I have experienced in France, Corsica etc. It is something that is a fantastic asset to a town that is there to be enjoyed by all. Not the case with this one Im afraid! It has a very elietist feel to it.

but for 1 of you , there's 4 nacker kids that will be on board the boats stealing stuff, and vandalising.

I know the point you are making, but this makes it feel like it is only there for a very small minority.

we don't lieve in france, if you want an open marina go live there.

I just dont want Greystones destroyed for a few wealthy people. As I pointed out I moved away from the harbour already.




The propossed marina to me (and everyone I talk to) is very ugly and lacks imagination. I dont mind the disruption in building it, you got to crack a few eggs to make an omelette. I can live with the size of it, but the appearence and height no way! I feel that it is completely out of sync with the rest of the town.



Im sure Matt that on your travels you have seen some beautiful marinas, much more beautiful than this design, or am I wrong???

Joliegood

I couldn't care less about access. It's the grotesque size and design of the thing that gets me. I wonder how white those walls will stay. Graffiti 'artists' will love it.

matt-dublin

Im sure Matt that on your travels you have seen some beautiful marinas, much more beautiful than this design, or am I wrong???

I have seen some fantastic marinas, The one in new york down by ground zero is amazing, - secured

leucate marina (more of a port) is beautiful, but there's noone there so noone can do anything to the boats, but the police walk the board walk regurlary

Boston Harbour Marina, MA, USA, Looks fantastic on a clear day with the skyscrapers right behind it, - Highly Secured

Chicago Northerly Island Marina has fantastic views of lake michigan, You can walk around the outskirts, but each pontoon is locked with a key code gate.

San Diego Marina, Has fantastic views of the pacific, it only has 3 access points onto it, all of which you need a keycard to get through.

The majority of marina's in the UK are blocked to public access as well.

Marina's are designed for people to keep their boats on, not for people to meander around. Personally, if i owned a boat on a marina, i wouldn't want someone to be able to get within 10 feet of it. Boats cost a lot of money, and the majority of rht boats due for the marina will cost anywhere between €10,000 to anywhere well over €1Million. Personally, if I wouldn't dock my boat in an unsecured marina, if i had the option of an unsecure marina and a mooring, i would take the mooring any day.

but this makes it feel like it is only there for a very small minority

Of course it is, for whoever has a boat!
Does it piss you off that people have bigger houses and more money than you? If so, work harder or win the lotto!

The propossed marina to me (and everyone I talk to) is very ugly and lacks imagination. I dont mind the disruption in building it, you got to crack a few eggs to make an omelette. I can live with the size of it, but the appearence and height no way! I feel that it is completely out of sync with the rest of the town.

The marina isn't going to be high!, its at water level, and the clubhouses won't be more than 2 storeys above water level! Its 4 storey apartments I think you'll find you're talking about there, and I agree, they're minging, will be over priced, and a €1800 management fees per year for the small ones!

Of course its going to look out of sync with the rest of the town, what do you expect them to build delapidated looking roads with potholes and sunken speed ramps? Do you expect them to use crumbling red brick for the buldings?

I don't think so!

They're not going to build something that looks and feels delapidated! (like greystones main st.) They need to build it with new materials, and strong enough to withstand the south westerly prevailing wind that can easily gust up to a force 8!

Anyone who i've talked to in the recent past is Pro Marina, It could do great things for the town, but a lot of people don't want to see that, all they seem to care about it the run down heritage town that needs to be saved!

Face up, the world is modernising, People need places to live, and I need somewhere to put my boat! If you don't agree with it, get over it! The public shouldn't be allowed access to people's private boats, how would you like if i had access to your upstairs bathroom without your knowledge?

You'd never know when i was there, with how many people, or what i was doing in there. If you can't see the sensibality in that i really don't knwo what to say!

Sparks

matt-dublin wrote:

Of course it is, for whoever has a boat!
Does it piss you off that people have bigger houses and more money than you? If so, work harder or win the lotto!

Hmmmm.
So who'd you pay to buy the foreshore matt?

Anyone who i've talked to in the recent past is Pro Marina

Well, the country club doesn't let in the riff-raff, does it?

Face up, the world is modernising, People need places to live, and I need somewhere to put my boat!

Awww diddums. Maybe you should win the lotto and buy a chunk of the foreshore?

how would you like if i had access to your upstairs bathroom without your knowledge?

About as much as if you'd permission to build all over the public foreshore without the public's permission.

matt-dublin

@sparks, most of those points don't even validate as arguement! what has the foreshore go to do with me?

Oh right, i want to use the marina, and I'm prepared to pay to use it, so I had to pay for part of the fore shore... ah right...
Good Arguement... Next!

Riff raff? what riff raff? Most people who own boats around the area are average joes who have ganged up to buy a boat! so i don't know what you're talking about... Another good arguement!... NEXT

Diddums? Lotto? Foreshore???

NEXT!!!!

It might be a public foreshore, but couldn't be properly used because of the amount of dog sh1t, rubbish and poor access to it! Plus, with the development its going to be rejuvinated(spelling)

Joliegood

matt-dublin wrote:

I have seen some fantastic marinas, The one in new york down by ground zero is amazing, - secured

leucate marina (more of a port) is beautiful, but there's noone there so noone can do anything to the boats, but the police walk the board walk regurlary

Boston Harbour Marina, MA, USA, Looks fantastic on a clear day with the skyscrapers right behind it, - Highly Secured

Chicago Northerly Island Marina has fantastic views of lake michigan, You can walk around the outskirts, but each pontoon is locked with a key code gate.

San Diego Marina, Has fantastic views of the pacific, it only has 3 access points onto it, all of which you need a keycard to get through.

The majority of marina's in the UK are blocked to public access as

In fairness Matt, that's hardly surprising. Closed for much more sinister and serious reasons I'd imagine.

matt-dublin

Joliegood wrote:

In fairness Matt, that's hardly surprising. Closed for much more sinister and serious reasons I'd imagine.

sorry you've lost me there, can you elaborate?

I think you mean about the marina in NY?