student = idealistic; adult = realistic

The Bollox

I was having a discussion with a friend last night about how pretty much all of my peers in the last election, myself included, voted for the greens with atleast one of their votes. While nearly all adults didn't, and mainly voted for the bigger parties like FF or FG or SF only. Is it really that black and white? I mean I am fairly idealistic. I honestly think that if the Greens were brought into government that they would really change the country for the better.

I know in my heart that it wouldn't work out that way, that the Greens wouldn't be able to run the country properly. That it takes a party like Fianna Fáil, who do all the nitty gritty stuff that keeps us ticking over, despite all the stick they get off students and adults alike complaining about taxes and the health system.

my friend quoted Churchill saying "Show me a young Conservative and I’ll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I’ll show you someone with no brains" and it pretty much set in stone what I fear; that in a few years I will have to abandon my idealistic views and accept the coarse fact that a party with so much potential just won't make Ireland what they say they can.

I wasn't sure if this rant was best suited here or in AH, so move if you feel it isn't serious enough or whatever. I just want to know what your views are on the topic. are all students blinded by idealism? or are there many older, wiser people who still cling to hopes and dreams or do they let go?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

IMO, it boils down to a loss of innocence

When we're students, we don't have the same sort of responsibilities as adults with regard to jobs, family and the like and the idealism is born out of an innocence that we can end world hunger and cure every disease etc.

As we grow up and begin to earn our own money, we start to want to protect, improve and expand our 'empires', and thus shift to the right. We realise that there are some things which are just intrinsic to the world.

Churchill's words, although cynical, are quite profound.

mike65

Students are free to dream, bill payers are not (except when they sleep).

Mike.

maniac101

OP, the title of your thread labels 'adults' like they're a different species. As a student who's old enough to vote, you ARE an adult!!

The vast majority of students who are old enough to vote don't actually vote at all (and they're all adults). That's not idealism, that's apathy. Students certainly haven't earned the 'idealistic' label. That's way too flattering for them.

The Bollox

so what am I supposed to call them? post graduates? +30's?

and almost all my peers that I asked who go to college did vote. almost all of my peers who I asked who didn't go to college didn't vote

stovelid

Mixture of burn-out/loss of innocence (depending on your original politcial slant) and self-interest (home owners, parents, tax payers etc).

brianthebard

Em, this is a joke. Are all the people in the Green party under 25? They are the party that you single out as being idealistic. There are plenty of other parties you could apply the label to.

The Bollox

brianthebard wrote:

Em, this is a joke. Are all the people in the Green party under 25? They are the party that you single out as being idealistic. There are plenty of other parties you could apply the label to.

I realise that, but it is the most prominent party I have seen college goers vote for, and that 'postgrads' or whatever you want to label them, don't. and they look down on the college people for voting for them

Akrasia

voting for FF/FG is a result of a mental illness.

The only medication that works is currently illegal.

brianthebard

The Bollox wrote:

I realise that, but it is the most prominent party I have seen college goers vote for, and that 'postgrads' or whatever you want to label them, don't. and they look down on the college people for voting for them

What are you basing this on? In NUIM the most active young party group are YFG, does that mean they are the most popular among students? I don't understand what you mean by postgrads, are you referring to masters and phd students? they are still "college people" and still vote I imagine.

The Bollox

brianthebard wrote:

I don't understand what you mean by postgrads, are you referring to masters and phd students? they are still "college people" and still vote I imagine.

I said post grads because someone already gave out to me for saying 'adults'

FTA69

Sean_K wrote:

When we're students, we don't have the same sort of responsibilities as adults with regard to jobs, family and the like and the idealism is born out of an innocence that we can end world hunger and cure every disease etc.

Speak for yourself, I am left-wing because I grew up with f*ck all and I realised the system wasn't fair.

I'm no longer in college, I now work 60 hours a week in London, and I still have f*ck all, and I'm still left-wing.

Idealism doesn't necessarily have to be the preserve of the youth, as BTB said Young Fine Gael are often the most populous youth wing in colleges.

indough

I don't think that most college students are idealistic, most just pretend to be lefties because they think that it's a requirement of college life

I've never understood why people feel the need to veer to either side anyway, surely we must all have some issues to which we feel conservatively about and some to which we hold a more liberal point of view? Deciding which side you belong to only leads to those arguments where you are arguing a point that you don't even really believe in.

College students have less of a stake in status quo and so are naturally going to be less conservative.

eoin5

Picking between left or right within the bounds of most representative democracys (including Ireland) is about as meaningful as picking between yellow or orange jelly babies.

Akrasia

Deleted User wrote:

College students have less of a stake in status quo and so are naturally going to be less conservative.

How does that explain the Anti war movement and the fact that so many 'rational' conservatives were pro war, while the 'idealistic (naive)' youth and lefties were staunchly anti war? (especially given that the WMD excuse has been proven to have been a complete fraud and the total chaos that the left predicted has materialised)

What stake do Irish conservatives have in an American war in Iraq?

It's not just ideology, it's also about the mental illness that I mentioned earlier. An Irrational trust in authority, despite repeatedly having that trust abused.

The inability for people to realise that they're being lied to blatantly. The irrational desire to believe proven liars. Why is the Sunday Independent the most popular newspaper in the country? Anyone with half a brain knows that it's a self serving corrupt rag that wouldn't know integrity if it punched them in the face.

Conservatives (unless they're in the small minority of elites who personally benefit hugely from the deception) are like the battered wives who refuse to leave because they think they need their husband and believe him when he says he's sorry and won't do it again.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Akrasia wrote:

What stake do Irish conservatives have in an American war in Iraq?

It's not about a monetary or physical stake, it's about preserving an ideology and a way of life.

Akrasia wrote:

Why is the Sunday Independent the most popular newspaper in the country? Anyone with half a brain knows that it's a self serving corrupt rag that wouldn't know integrity if it punched them in the face.

Can't argua with that, it's a terrible paper.

Akrasia wrote:

Conservatives (unless they're in the small minority of elites who personally benefit hugely from the deception) are like the battered wives who refuse to leave because they think they need their husband and believe him when he says he's sorry and won't do it again.

And liberals are like tiny little puppy dogs that obsess and enthuse over tiny little things and never being happy with what they've got, while all the clever conservatives sell them stuff and live happy lives knowing they've succeeded in being a cut above their fellow man.


Sorry to be facetious, but from an objective standpoint, battles between the hard left and right are going nowhere! although admittedly they are very important in terms of progress and moral development, so i wont complain.

Akrasia

indough wrote:

You write about the 'total chaos' of the situation as if that is actually the way it stands. Don't be so naive. The situation has panned out exactly as planned.

And you support it? You support massive increases in anti western sentiment and the death of a million Iraqis?

There is no 'Democracy' in Iraq by the way, and if you though the invasion had anything at all, even in the slightest, with bringing democracy to the middle east then you are suffering from the same inability to recognise lies that I mentioned earlier.

No one was ever looking for WMD's, so what? Do you think that the conservatives really bought that line?

'The Conservatives' are split into simple camps and each are sold a different kind of propaganda. It's why there seem to be so many inconsistent reasons for the war. It's sold to half the people through fear patriotism and revenge (9/11 and 'terrorism') And it's sold to the other side through Greed and ideology (Freedom(capitalism) and oil.)
In reality, a few corporations, made an absolute unmerciful killing, and the Iraqis and U.S. troops and individual contractors suffered a killing

Of course not, they just played along with it because it was what was necessary to get the job done.

what job? The imperialist sacking of a nation? The theft of lives and resources?. You support the deliberate use of propaganda to control people's minds because you can not win the argument on your own merits. If you repeat that propaganda knowing full well that it is false and misleading, then you are no different from Goebbels or any communist propagandist.

If you do support 'freedom' you should support an open and informed debate, not massive state and corporate propaganda campaigns

There is no great conspiracy.

If the vast majority of conservatives are involved in generating and spreading propaganda that they themselves know to be false in order to convince feeble minded people to support their cause, then this is a conspiracy. If on the other hand most conservatives actually believed the WMD and Freedom and Democracy nonsense, then they're all mentally Ill

It isn't a 'minority of elites' that benefit from the deception, it's you and me. And your children, and their children too.

Nonsense. The richest 1% made billions and billions of dollars in profits. Everyone else in the world had to put up with higher petrol prices and suffered the humiliation of feeling complicit in crimes against humanity.

One day you will be thankful that this war was fought and won by the coalition forces, I can pretty much assure you. And if you're not happy with it then it really won't matter, because the world will still move nicely along and be a better place for what has happened.

Such confidence about the future in light of the utter devastation that we see in Iraq is a sign of a delusional mind. I completely fail to see how killing a million people so oil companies and arms dealers can make more profits will benefit me or my children

As far as i'm concerned, they could have blatantly came out and said 'we want to turn the middle east into a democracy and exploit the oil in the region', and I still would have supported the war. Ethics and morality only have so much going for them in terms of international relations, and in the case in point we're not exactly dealing with the most ethically sound of states.

Are you talking about Iraq or America here?

I'm not trying to be condescending to you or any liberals, but I genuinely think that the difference between the left and right is that the right realizes that sometimes you have to do dirty work in order to make the world a better place. If the liberals had their way through the course of history then we would probably be typing our posts in German right now.

More unadulterated rubbish. Stalinist Russia defeated Germany. America didnt even turn up until near the end. And if 'Liberals' had our way, WW1 would never have happened and hitler would never have risen to power.

And the U.S. actions in dropping two nuclear bombs onto civilians in Japan were the single greatest acts of terrorism in the history of Humanity.

Of course the Nazi's weren't liberals but what I mean to say is that not everyone will instantly decide not to ever go to war again, and whoever was to do it first would just be destroyed. Remember that the civil liberties liberals cherish oh so dearly would quickly vanish if the enemies of the western world were to get their way.

Civil Liberties that Liberals fought and died for against the 'conservative' slavers and factory owners? The Civil Liberties like right to a free press (not a corporate o political propaganda device) Right to privacy (not compulsary biometric ID cards and 24 hour surveillance and constant tracking that conservatives are in favour of?

We don't live in an ideal world, and we never will. That is just something that liberals will never accept. Having said that, life is often about compromise, and anyone serious about politics should realize that there are good points and ideas to be drawn from both sides.

There is no compromise when it comes to Imperialism, genocide and crimes against humanity

Fremen

Idealism doesn't necessarily have to be the preserve of the youth, as BTB said Young Fine Gael are often the most pompous youth wing in colleges.

FYP

oscarBravo

Just a polite reminder: this is the political theory forum. I don't mind passing references to Iraq, but if you want to start debating the war (or any other specific political issue), take it to Politics.

Ta!

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Akrasia wrote:

There is no compromise when it comes to Imperialism, genocide and crimes against humanity

I commend your rhetoric but respectfully question the substance of you beliefs.

Akrasia

indough wrote:

That just goes to show how much you know. Because the Russians took Berlin they won the war for us? Haha!

The russians held the eastern front by themselves. More people fought and died on the eastern front than in all the other theatres of war Combined (almost 16 million casualties, more than 10 million on the Russian side) (just soldiers, never mind civilian casualties)

The United states suffered only 2% of the military deaths in the whole war. Their sacrifice was nothing compared even with the Chinese casualties in the pacific front.

If it wasn't for the Russian resistance, Hitler would have totally dominated the continent and overwhelmed the U.K.

Akrasia

Sean_K wrote:

I commend your rhetoric but respectfully question the substance of you beliefs.

What's that supposed to mean?

brianthebard

The Bollox wrote:

I said post grads because someone already gave out to me for saying 'adults'

Yeah the problem is that you are getting more and more vague which means your point is less and less pointed.

brianthebard

indough wrote:

That just goes to show how much you know. Because the Russians took Berlin they won the war for us? Haha!

If this goes any further it might get sent to history, but seriously if you don't realise that the USSR made the biggest contribution to the defeat of Germany then you shouldn't be talking about it. And who's this "us" you speak of?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Akrasia wrote:

What's that supposed to mean?

It means that, although hugely hyperbolic statements such as

There is no compromise when it comes to Imperialism, genocide and crimes against humanity

sound great, are extremely powerful, have a certain ellegance and are invaluable to the case of any sort of hard-line politics, at the end of the day they are just hot-air. They mean absolutely nothing.

Of course there is no compromise when it comes to Imperialism, genocide and crimes against humanity, however, you make the assumption that all vaguely right wing politics extolls the virtues of genocide and crimes against humanity which is preposterous.

The Bollox

brianthebard wrote:

If this goes any further it might get sent to history, but seriously if you don't realise that the USSR made the biggest contribution to the defeat of Germany then you shouldn't be talking about it. And who's this "us" you speak of?

I know, but it's hard to stay focused when so many posters badger me with my phrasing.

basically my point was is it a constant that as you get older you veer more and more towards the right wing?

Akrasia

Sean_K wrote:

sound great, are extremely powerful, have a certain ellegance and are invaluable to the case of any sort of hard-line politics, at the end of the day they are just hot-air. They mean absolutely nothing.

of course it means something. For one thing, It means that Torture is always wrong, no matter who does it. How many conservatives are opposed to rendition and guantanamo bay?

Of course there is no compromise when it comes to Imperialism, genocide and crimes against humanity, however, you make the assumption that all vaguely right wing politics extolls the virtues of genocide and crimes against humanity which is preposterous.

Not according to the previous poster "indough" who I was directly responding to and who had claimed that most conservatives know that the lies governments tell to justify war are false, but go along with them anyway because they are pragmatic and support their imperialism agenda, even when it results in crimes against humanity.

Most 'conservatives' support the Gaza Ghetto (mass collective punishment) because they support the Israeli annexation of the middle east (or are too blind to see what the real agenda of zionism actually is)


rthrhfyh

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Akrasia wrote:

of course it means something. For one thing, It means that Torture is always wrong, no matter who does it. How many conservatives are opposed to rendition and guantanamo bay?

I was dealing with the statement in the context that you originally wrote it, not as a standalone principal.

Akrasia wrote:

Most 'conservatives' support the Gaza Ghetto (mass collective punishment) because they support the Israeli annexation of the middle east (or are too blind to see what the real agenda of zionism actually is)

By conservatives, do you mean US Republicans?

You can blame conservatism for all our problems, but I can guarantee you that over in China or Russia, there are many people just like you who blame the left for all the problems in their economy and the incomprehensible poverty which is like nothing we see in Ireland

brianthebard

The Bollox wrote:

I know, but it's hard to stay focused when so many posters badger me with my phrasing.

basically my point was is it a constant that as you get older you veer more and more towards the right wing?

With respect, I didn't intentionally badger you. The point I'm trying to make is that your initial post was vague to say the least. You've provided no stats or anything to suggest that you might be right, beyond circumstantial evidence. the political theory heading of this forum suggests that you should be trying to put forward a more convincing argument than that (imo). If you can't show that as X number of people aged, Y percent became more conservative, in spite of leftist or radical thinking in their earlier years, then whats the point? And for the record its not even that I don't think you might be right, I just think that unless you can show me some reason to believe you I won't be able to.

The Bollox

so this forum is all about facts and not opinions, or if it is opinion it needs to be backed up by facts? is there no room for a discussion like this based purely on opinions? if I had known that I would have posted in AH (and have had a mockery made of the post) and then have it moved here