student = idealistic; adult = realistic

maniac101

The Bollox wrote:

I said post grads because someone already gave out to me for saying 'adults'

Bollox, I wasn't giving out to you. I just found the title of your thread unclear. I guess you're comparing students with ex-students. I still wouldn't agree that students are in any way more idealistic than anyone else. When I was a student, most people I knew, including myself, might have sat around and discussed what was wrong with the world. But when it came to election time pragmatism ruled the day; none of us was prepared to fork out for the bus fare home and miss the following day's lectures in order to vote. Therefore none of us could have been considered idealists. It's perhaps unfair to judge others by my own low standards, but the few students that I now know behave in the same manner.

SkepticOne

Stating the obvious: the idealist in politics is concerned with how things work in theory. Does the idea make sense and is it appealing. It makes sense that the younger you are, the less experience you have and the more you rely on how things look in theory. In a democracy this is tempered by the views of older people with a more pragmatic, experience based approach. It is one of several changes in political outlook that people tend to go through as they get older. It makes sense when you consider the different interests of the different age groups. Ultimately it is about serving one's own interest.

AckwelFoley

Simple reason is hat students vote for Sinn Feinn for a rose tinted view unted ireland.

They vote for the greens and other left wing parties because they want to tax the bollox out of every thing that makes the economy run.

The best parties are the left of center and or the right of center parties. There are no right wing parties in Ireland, some would say the most RW would be the PD's but compared to what real right wing is, they're not.

An economy needs balance, we need to create an incentive to attract job creating multi nationals to come to ireland, we need to create the incentive for ppl to work, and not over tax the wealthy or else they will do the natural thing and **** off out of ireland with their wealth, as what happened in the 1980s in england when the super tax took 90p in every pound.

the_syco

snyper wrote:

Simple reason is hat students vote for Sinn Feinn for a rose tinted view unted ireland.

I voted for SF when I believed that the 'RA was doing a good job. I now vote FF, as they get companys that make jobs. I vote a local Labour dude in sometimes, as he does stuff locally. I voted for a FG wan last election, as she did half usefull stuff nearby, but you have to be wary with FG.

FF f**k up badly, but not as bad as FG did.

milmo

Akrasia wrote:

How does that explain the Anti war movement and the fact that so many 'rational' conservatives were pro war, while the 'idealistic (naive)' youth and lefties were staunchly anti war? (especially given that the WMD excuse has been proven to have been a complete fraud and the total chaos that the left predicted has materialised)

Many people, of all political persuasions were against the war in Iraq. I myself, and I doubt I'm alone in this, would have not felt comfortable associating with the "anti-war" groups that have hijacked this issue (be that Sinn Fein, Socialist Workers, PANA, or any off the hachet wielding hairys down in Shannon).

The war was never a left/right divide.

The "total chaos that the left materialised", but ye were not the only ones to predict the dangers of a military intervention in one of the most politically volitile areas of the world. Given that (IMO) extremist left groups are predicting that the sky will fall on an almost daily basis I can only draw the conclusion that a broken clock is right twice a day!

milmo

Student politics is dead in this country.

Most students don't have an interest in politics and are therefore are more likey to vote for parties that peddle idealism and radical change rather than the political establishment.

IMHO this could be for a number of reasons.

(a) Rejecting their parents values
(b) Not really knowing much about the issues at hand
(c) Don't pay taxes, aren't affected by mortgage interest rates, aren't paying creche fees, aren't caught in commuter gridlock etc, etc, etc

Views change quicky when they are out in the real world!

AckwelFoley

the_syco wrote:

I voted for SF when I believed that the 'RA was doing a good job. I now vote FF, as they get companys that make jobs. I vote a local Labour dude in sometimes, as he does stuff locally. I voted for a FG wan last election, as she did half usefull stuff nearby, but you have to be wary with FG.

FF f**k up badly, but not as bad as FG did.

Im willing to bet that most ppl that vote for SF dont actually realise the type of economic system that those guys want to implement on this country. Part of the reason they did so badly in the election is because of how outside of the debate on our economic system our old friend gerry is. They are the most left wing party in the country, they do have guys at local level that work well for ppl, but in a government - if they were the majority, it would be time to pull up ur tent and leave the country.

oscarBravo

Just a gentle reminder: this isn't a thread on either SF or the Iraq war, lest anyone get tempted to sidetrack it.

karen3212

I was reading somwhere that in the US at least, it is when a woman has a child that they change, for the most part from voting democratic to voting for Republicans. I can only imagine that they influence their husbands to do the same thing.

We don't have left or right wing parties here really, except small ones.

So, I think one might have to look into the reasons why parents become so focused on their own child, as opposed to thinking that your own child doesn't live in a bubble, and will one day have to live and interact with the children of other parents. I think some parents become extremely focussed on their own children, to the detriment of other parents and children in their society.

eoin5

milmo I think student politics is growing in strength in this country, and especially the more radical end of things.

karen3212 wrote:

We don't have left or right wing parties here really, except small ones.

Comparing our major parties to other countries I'd count both FF and FG as right wing. I think its one of the reasons why our students seem to hinge towards more radical views.

Hotblack Desiato

eoin5 wrote:

Comparing our major parties to other countries I'd count both FF and FG as right wing. I think its one of the reasons why our students seem to hinge towards more radical views.

LOL. Bertie is a self-proclaimed socialist (yeah, I know, but bear with me) and Enda wants Aer Lingus to be brought back under State control. Even the PDs were only ever centre-right and both FF and FG are well to the left of them.

From our point of view, the 'left-right divide' in the US looks more like a right - extreme right divide. If you think FF or FG can hold a candle to conservative US Republicans, well... :rolleyes: about covers it.

eoin5

I was comparing them to the rest of the world, not the US in particular. The US have a particularly messed up system.

FF is in the business of selling out the country.
FG tried to tax childrens shoes (theyll never recover fully from that ).
Theyre both nationalist parties.

Theyre right wing parties that incorporate some leftish values.

Brian?

Its an interesting topic and you are right the people become less idealistic as they grow older. I refuse to believe that this is due to increased realism, I believe it is due to the pressures of society to conform or suffer.

The Bollox wrote: »

I was having a discussion with a friend last night about how pretty much all of my peers in the last election, myself included, voted for the greens with atleast one of their votes. While nearly all adults didn't, and mainly voted for the bigger parties like FF or FG or SF only. Is it really that black and white? I mean I am fairly idealistic. I honestly think that if the Greens were brought into government that they would really change the country for the better.

The motivation for people vote for the larger parties in most cases has very little to with ideals in my opinion and more to do with self interest and fear of the unknown. People will vote for a party that they think will put more money in their pocket at the end of the week so they can pay for their mortgage, car and childminding(just examples obviously). They rarely stop to consider that its the fault of these larger parties that they are paying so much for their mortgage, car and childminding.

The Bollox wrote: »

I know in my heart that it wouldn't work out that way, that the Greens wouldn't be able to run the country properly. That it takes a party like Fianna Fáil, who do all the nitty gritty stuff that keeps us ticking over, despite all the stick they get off students and adults alike complaining about taxes and the health system..

I'm not saying the Greens would be able to run the country properly, I don't vote for them myself, but the fact that you doubt it tells me that you are already starting to doubt you ideals. Is this what you call the realism?

The Bollox wrote: »

my friend quoted Churchill saying "Show me a young Conservative and I’ll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I’ll show you someone with no brains" and it pretty much set in stone what I fear; that in a few years I will have to abandon my idealistic views and accept the coarse fact that a party with so much potential just won't make Ireland what they say they can...

Anyone who quotes Churchill loses any argument by default if you ask me. If you already know that in a few years you'll have to abandon your views, I'd hardly call them ideals.

The Bollox wrote: »

I wasn't sure if this rant was best suited here or in AH, so move if you feel it isn't serious enough or whatever. I just want to know what your views are on the topic. are all students blinded by idealism? or are there many older, wiser people who still cling to hopes and dreams or do they let go?

There are many older people who cling to ideals, otherwise there would be not Socialist Party, no Greens, no Sinn Fein(debatable ideals and all) etc..


I have no idea whether I got across what I wanted to here, I very rarely post on boards, let alone in the political theory board. If not I apologise. The reason that I did reply was that it hit close to home, I recently talked to someone who was socialist in college and now votes PD. Coudln't believe it.


Brian

Thomas_S_Hunterson

briankeating wrote: »

Anyone who quotes Churchill loses any argument by default if you ask me. If you already know that in a few years you'll have to abandon your views, I'd hardly call them ideals.

I think you're missing the point of the quote, it's an observation of whoever said it, not a belief or axiom in itself.

Brian?

Sean_K wrote: »

I think you're missing the point of the quote, it's an observation of whoever said it, not a belief or axiom in itself.

Ahh but then you missed the point of what I was saying, it was supposed to a joke, a throw away remark if you will.

I suppose I should have thrown in some sort of smiley or some such beside it

Sleepy

Personally, I think Mr. Churchill would consider me someone with no brains or heart (a tin scarecrow perhaps?) as I was fairly right wing in college (voted PD's) and have moved further and further left as I get older...

Tar.Aldarion

People start to have responsibilities as they get older as people have said.They want a short term fix and do not care about the long term. They want things to stay the same, same old lives, same old capitalist needs to sate. Out for yourselves, this is what you reap.
Simple human nature.

DadaKopf

I'm not 100% with you there. It's fair to say younger people are less incorporated into 'the system' than adults. Because of that, kids don't 'fit in' to adult worlds. This actually makes kids extremely observant critics of adult worlds, just as any excluded group can point out the contradictions and injustices of various issues. Adults, by contrast, become blinded by 'the system' as they become incorporated into it via the jobs market, taxation, the banking system, and a whole panoply of other structures that narrow one's aspirations, corrodes one's values and brainwashes people into defending the status quo even if it contradicts their nature.

It's a shame that we too easily lose our once keen critical eye. We do this because our culture tells us that the opinions of children aren't worth snot - their observations are naive and unsophisticated. If we gave children a voice, maybe that might change a little.

Keeping a kid's perspective on things is difficult, but equally, people very much dislike many aspects of their worlds that they believe they simply have to accept. But this is only the case so long as people believe it.

Rossibaby

i think it is common sense to suggest that people sometimes abandon their socialist beliefs when they get older...sure they have a family to feed,a house to do up and a car to buy...it turns into a talent show.they lose their empathy with the working and under class people and only seek a bigger pay check for themselves.Im sure you'll find many college socialists throughout ireland in the socialist party and the workers party.in many ways they do it because they feel its cool or something to that effect,they are 'trendies'.but when their back is against the wall and they have the choice to in the future, im sure nearly every single one would abandon their 'beliefs' for material wealth

CerebralCortex

snyper wrote: »

Im willing to bet that most ppl that vote for SF dont actually realise the type of economic system that those guys want to implement on this country. Part of the reason they did so badly in the election is because of how outside of the debate on our economic system our old friend gerry is. They are the most left wing party in the country, they do have guys at local level that work well for ppl, but in a government - if they were the majority, it would be time to pull up ur tent and leave the country.

I'm curious. Do you think any political party would do something to upset Ireland economically? I'm actually asking out of complete lack of knowledge and not to prove a point. I remember in the last elections someone was going to vote for FF over FG because FG were going to raise corporation tax. I found the concept difficult to fathom and I'm not pointing fingers at any particular party.

As regards the OP I think as a nation we're disgracefully cynical and fearful and quite often resign our selfs to absolutism. For example "I have to vote Fianna Fail or the economy is f**ked" I think politicians clean up on this front especially FF who are commendable at manipulating that kind of sentiment (not criticising just an example).

CerebralCortex

Sleepy wrote: »

Personally, I think Mr. Churchill would consider me someone with no brains or heart (a tin scarecrow perhaps?) as I was fairly right wing in college (voted PD's) and have moved further and further left as I get older...

I love it when people buck the trend.

EamonnKeane

I think we are forgetting that what was much of what was "idealistic" in the past is seen as "realistic" nowadays; and much of what was "realistic" in the past is seen as monstrous nowadays.

lightsinthebay

Aye, I don't buy the premise of the opening post, I reckon the 'left wing student' thing is a bit of a myth. I certainly do not see much evidence of it in Ireland today. In fact one might say the opposite - the generation that came of age in the 60s, 70s, and even 80s, is more politicised. It is the case I think that younger people are more likely to go for newer things (less tied by old loyalties), when politicised, hence Sinn Fein overtaking the SDLP among youth, this is true also of the radical right - the Nazi party were dominant in German universities before elsewhere in the society, or the 60s New Left in Europe is a good example - there was way more youth in, or supporting, trotskist, maoist, or anarchist groups, but most of the left was older, and in or supporting the older left parties - social democrat or communist....so maybe a particular type of left could be associated with youth (at a particular time) but this was far from being the whole left.

Students can be visible in media friendly protests, far left parties, and the like, cause they have more time and are flexible in their commitments, but this is far from representative of students as a whole, the overwhelming bulk of whom are apolitical, not politically committed or right wing.

Most trade union or community activists are gonna be older (more of a stake in their jobs or neighbourhoods, more experience). Last year the Labour Party canvassers that came to my door seemed older also.