Cycle Lanes

dumbyearbook

Hi,

Dunno if this seems a bit rude to some cyclists (I say this as I am sure some of you will agree with me...:D )

But why dont you use the cycle lanes when available - Round Dundrum/Sandyford/Leopardstown there are cycle lanes everywhere - and the bikes are out in the middle of the bloody road :mad:

Any excuses?

Cabaal

dumbyearbook if you'll do a search youi'll find plenty of threads here regarding the pros and cons of cycle lanes in Ireland.

You'll find there badly planned, badly layed out, badly maintained and this leads to cyclist not using them because they can endanger the cyclists life more then cycling on the road can.

Personally I think this thread should be locked because its only going to turn into a flame war, there's plenty of info already posted on this board and the op should search for it imho

dumbyearbook

Point taken; I obviously should have done a search first. Forget it its grand then.

--edit---

Did a search there it damn all out there on this tbh, I think the cycle lanes in the areas i mentioned earleir are in good condition?

Cabaal

I'm sure people will be along shortly to post some info

rubadub

There is no such thing as a "cycle lane" in Irish law, only cycle tracks, and cycle ways. I am not just being pedantic, there are clear definitions of what constitutes a cycle track or cycle way. Many of these apparent "cycle lanes", are technically footpaths, it is illegal to cycle on them. It is pretty clear that they are footpaths since most pedestrians choose to walk on them rather than the perfectly good footpath right beside them.

I used to go on the cycle tracks up & down leopardstown road. Now I always cycle on the road from leopardstown to whites cross, I think it is safer for me to do so, I have had many close calls with pedestrians, and all the parked cars, especially since the mobile phone ban in cars, many pull in wherever they want.

The "cycle lanes" are not "perfectly fine", either, far from it. If a "cycle lane" is not fit to cycle a motorcycle on then it is unsuitable for a bicycle. Why do you think the gardai are issued with slow mountain bikes. A road bike would not last pissing time on a cycle track.

On the way up from whites cross to leopardstown I use the road if it is empty, mainly to avoid all the kerbs, cars, dips, glass and wandering pedestrians.

These are my "excuses". I would love to hear motorists excuses for using cycle tracks as mobile phone stopping points, and why pedestrians walk on them.

I am waiting for the day the gardai pull me in for cycling on the road from leopardstown to whites cross, I dont think I have ever seen a 200m stretch without cars or pedestrians on it. So if questioned I will simply point them out as the reason why it is unsafe to cycle on them, and then question them about what they are going to do about it.

dumbyearbook

From the tone of the post above youd think the roads in Ireland were all in top shape/safe!

Motorists put up with poor roads as much as cyclists put up with poor lanes/paths can you not stay out of traffic though when possible?,


guy tried to pull out in front of my car the other day and looked at me as if where are you going?

Meanwhile i look to the cylcle path/lane provided for him......there are cycle paths/lanes avoided by cyclists that should be used.

Why bother putting them in if they are not used?

markpb

Like Cabaal said, a lot aren't suitable for the purpose intended: cycling safely

Typical problems would be a lack of segregation from the footpath so pedestrians can wander in unknowingly, lacking a safe way to cross road junctions so motorists will turn across them not realising there's a path there, lacking a safe exit at the end or when a cyclists needs to be in a turning right lane or obstructions such as street furniture, lamp posts, etc on the path.

Less obvious problems would be dish ramps outside each driveway or house (sesickness ahoy!) or tracks that are inaccessible to road cleaners so they're covered in broken glass or wet leaves.

I guess I could sum it up by saying a lot of the lanes weren't designed with commuter cyclists in mind. Some of them are fine for a leisurely Sunday cycle but not much else.

pete4130

Most of the cycles lanes you mention are on the roadside, so become prime parking and undertaking spots for cars who don't stick to their respective lanes and not to mention turning left without looking and cutting up cylcists.

The cycles lanes are usually awash with debris, stones, gravel, broken glass and general rubbish whcih makes it difficult and sometimes dangerous to cycle in the cycles lanes.

Mostly this debris is pushed there by the passing cars (through not fault of the cars). Alot of gulleys and drains are also either raised or more often than not sunken an inch or more which could result in a fall from a bike if not avoided or seen and almost certainly a puncture at any decent speed. These potholes are not dealt with as readily as the ones on the main road.

The seperated cycle lanes (on the footpaths) are mostly not very good. With pedestrians walking in them and not in the designated walking area of the footpath and smoe of the cycle lanes on foothpaths in this city simply end at a kerb sometimes with no dip to dismount and remount the cycle lane where it crosses a road on the left side.

Sometimes cyclists have to take up a road position that might seem selfish to drivers but this is sometimes the only way that cyclists can get the room they need to on the roads.

I find it hard that you can say the cycle lanes are in good condition if you don't regularly use them on bicycle (I don't mean to be offensive with that observation). It seems like an unsubstantiated opinion.


Well thats my take on the cycle lane situation and is only my opinion. I both drive and cycle and make sure to give plenty of space.

Pete.

kmick

One of the main reasons you cant use the lanes in ireland is the left turn problem. Cars will overtake you and make a sharp left turn assuming that a car has precedence over a bike. When you are on the road it is bad enough but when cycling on the cycle lane around there every 20 meters you have to cross a road. Any car on the road WILL cut you up regardless of whether you are technically ahead or not. Add in the cars parked, pedestrians walking, trees, difficult and dangerous cambers on these tracks and they are basically unusable.

Agent J

dumbyearbook wrote:

Why bother putting them in if they are not used?

Two words.

Tax breaks.

I live in maynooth and was shown some of the cycle lanes and the only reason they are built was tax breaks.

There is one on the main street which runs in the middle of the path. I kid you not in the middle of it so people treat it as a foot path.I usually never bother with it.

The cycle lanes on campus are a running joke. The set up is like 2 seperate roads(One for cars and one for bikes) both on the same level with 2 way traffic on each. Of course cars pay no heed to it since its on the same level
so you can end up playing a game of chicken with a car...

A few of the ones in the various housing estates. You can tell they were built and designed by someone who never touched a bike. There are no entrance/exit kerbs. Its all the same height so unless you can get a really good bounce you should dismount and lift it up on to the path.

dumbyearbook

Hi,

We may as well stop cycle lanes so? Beacuse they are'nt clean and therefore anre'nt safe.

And because the cycle lanes are used by cars and the cycle paths are used by pedestrians.

I have cycled a bike on the path and found it grand @ Pete4130?

I see some good points above the left turn and getting cut across on the road. Fair enough - they just seem like such a waste and bikes around traffic freak me out - im so scared someone will fall off their bike in front of me!

dumbyearbook

Agent J wrote:

Two words.

Tax breaks.
QUOTE]

explain?

markpb

Agent J wrote:

You can tell they were built and designed by someone who never touched a bike.

I sent an email to DCC a few months ago pointing out some problems with the Swords Road / Drumcondra Road cycle lane. His reply might clear a few things up.

"Thanks for your recent email re cycle lanes in Dublin which has been passed on to me as I too am a regular cyclist."

"At present, there is no one in charge of overall cycling in Dublin. Each area traffic engineer deals with cycling matters in his own area (I am in the South Central area."

Points of interest are that no-one from north dublin area replied to my mail, no-one from south dublin actually responsible for the cycle lanes replied, the no-one is in overall control and the guy who did reply only did so because he cycles too and the people responsible are road engineers. I guess that sums up Dublin's approach to cycle lanes

dumbyearbook wrote:

We may as well stop cycle lanes so? Beacuse they are'nt clean and therefore anre'nt safe.

Or we could build them properly and encourage people to cycle to work or school in a safe, cheap, reliable, environmentally friendly, healthy and efficient way.

pete4130

I didn't say that all cycle lanes weren't good. I was statign that from my experience with cycle lanes I've found the majority of them aren't great. As mentioned by another memeber, the cycle lanes are probably suitable for leisure cycling but for commuting it's a different story. Leisure cycling would be in the evenings/weekends when the weather would be better, less traffic rather than rush hour when traffic volumes are heavy, people are stuck in their cars wanting to get home, getting frustrated being in gridlock.

I disagree that the provision of cycle lanes should be stopped. In principle they are good. In theory they don't work as well as they could due to poor layout, design, lack of segregation etc....

If you know the customs house at all you can see one of the better examples of a segregated cycle lane as you come from Amiens Street towards the North Quays:

-It's on road level (no pedestrians)

-It's got a raised kerd to seperate it from traffic (no cars & less debris as it lie on the road side of the seperating kerb)

-It's off the footpath's kerb (no pedstrians)

It's a pity it's only about 30 metres long.


Pete

dumbyearbook

Seems there are good reasons to be on the road then.

We just need proper cycle lanes with proper planning and that will keep cars on the road and bikes away from traffic.

I'm actually concerned cause if somefalls off his bike in front of you that would be it - i note not one of you appreciate that some motorists have concern for the cyclist and i actually do - altough i just want ye out of my way tbh!

I'm very much into being environmentally friendly and healthy so bikes are good - just not near a car !

rubadub

dumbyearbook wrote:

From the tone of the post above youd think the roads in Ireland were all in top shape/safe!

Compared to the cycletracks, yes they are! why do you think so many cyclists chose them over cycletracks.

I use both cycletracks and roads, sounds like you have only experienced roads.

dumbyearbook wrote:

guy tried to pull out in front of my car the other day and looked at me as if where are you going?

Amazingly cyclists, motorists & pedestrians are all the same species, good & bad, and many people are more than one of the above groups. I have had motorists and pedestrians look at me on cycletracks looking at me as though I was in the wrong, and idiot is an idiot- on a bike, on foot or drving.

dumbyearbook wrote:

Why bother putting them in if they are not used?

So politicians can look like they are doing something, yet would never dream of cycling themselves. I really do not know why they continue putting them in when nobody uses them. It would be like putting in a third lane, the extra slow lane and forcing all cars below 1.2L to drive on it. Then littering it with bumps, glass & pedestrians. Would you use this lane if it was available?

dumbyearbook wrote:

We may as well stop cycle lanes so? Beacuse they are'nt clean and therefore anre'nt safe.

Yep, I agree, seems the logical solution, you seem to be understanding the issue now.

I have cycled a bike on the path and found it grand @ Pete4130?

Well that is also illegal to do, most footpaths are in far more suitable to cycle on than cycletracks, less pedestrians (most being on cycletracks), less glass & bumps too. Unfortunately you are more likely to be stopped by the gardai for doing so.

im so scared someone will fall off their bike in front of me!

The cyclist is probably more scared than you, yet has more fear cycling on the cycletracks.

dumbyearbook

The footpath i was referring to was actually a cycle path. No Law broke then.

I am starting to understand!

I am actually concerened and have no chip as regards bikes its just it is unsafe for them to be in traffic, and that guy that pulled out in front of me was an idiot but imo he should have been on the cycle path full stop it was 7.30 am very few pedestrians the path was perfect for him i see loads of other bikes on it.

kenmc

I cycle on the road from dundrum to leopardstown every day, because, believe it or not, I feel SAFER on the road with the traffic than taking my life into my hands on the cycle lanes - wheelie bins, cars pulling out of driveways, glass, gravel, pedestrians, dogsh1t, dogs, cars turning left across you, cars parked on the cycleways - you name it.

Now if you're toddling along at barely above walking pace then all of this is probably not much of a problem. If however , like me, you consider cycling to be a) a form of exercise and b) a means of getting from a to b quickly, then all of these dangers on the cycle lanes are unacceptable. I have lost count the number of close calls I have had while on the cycle lanes, whereas I can count on 1 finger (yes, finger) the number if times I have nearly been taken out on the road.

So we're forced onto the road. And because of the ignorance of a substantial number of drivers, we're forced to adopt an aggressive position on the road in order to ensure that we are not forced off the road by foxrock tractors on a school run trying to get two vehicles into a space for 1. By staying far enough out from the kerb it means I am not forced into any drains/potholes etc which could send me out under a car, but also it means that anyone who wants to overtake me has to wait for a safe place to do so, when they can make a full overtaking manouver rather than just squeezing by me with oncoming traffic. And as I'm doing 45kph in the 50kph zone I'm not exactly holding up traffic much either.

So thats why we are not in the cycle lane.
Oh and hey, you should probably actually thank people like me; because I choose to leave my car at home (despite paying full whack for my road tax, insurance and NCT), there's one less car in the traffic jam in front of you! So give us a break.

Agent J

dumbyearbook wrote:

Agent J wrote:

Two words.

Tax breaks.

explain?

As in if you build a road and stick a set of cycle paths/lanes on them the building company gets a tax reduction.

Im not sure if this is a cross the board thing but i was told this was the case in a few of the new estates in maynooth.


Pete-

I know the lane you are talking about. Its for cyclists to cycle safely aganist the traffic but the amount of muppets i see going the wrong way on it. Problem is it wouldnt be pratical on longer roads and cost factor.

Rule of thumb to discerin decent cyclists from ones to be avoided.

If they have a helmet odds are they are more likely to obey the rules of the road.

pete4130

It's not unsafe for cyclists to be on the roads with cars. I think it's an ingrained attitude from drivers that they have exclusive rights to the road. I've tried to put my arguement across for bikes in a reasonable manner. My only suggestion for you to get a real insight into what cyclists face would be to cycle for a week or two from home to work and to treat the bicycle as you would your car, to cycle it for commuting rather than a leisurely cycle in rush hour traffic. It believe it wouldn't be long before you'd have a different perspective on the situation. It's not just about pedestrians on the path, its the numerous other reasons that have been mentioned why cyclists use the roads.

pete4130

@ Agent J,

Interestingly I read an article on a study performed regarding cars and cyclists who do 7 don't wear cycle helmets. I can't remember the exact figures but from memory I think cars drove 18% closer to cyclists that chose to wear helmets as they saw them as being more experienced so thought the wouldn't need as much room as an inexperienced cyclists....sorry if thats off topic.

rubadub

dumbyearbook wrote:

The footpath i was referring to was actually a cycle path. No Law broke then.

I thought that was what you meant, just getting a sneaky comment in about the footpaths being more suitable for bikes

But the "cycle path" you were on could very well have technically been a footpath, even if a dirty big bike is painted on it (and ignored). There are certain signings required by law and many do not have them. Many are very grey areas, if you come from whites cross to fox rock church it gets crazy. Most of that road is not technically a cycle track, it is littered with people and glass. If you obey the law and cycle on the road then your life is put at risk by maniac bus drivers and taximen. Then when you come to the bus stop near foxrock it just seems to fade away, people all over the place, on the path, "cycle track", and the road.

You may think the path you were on was OK, but as another poster mentioned it is not suitable for any speed, or road bikes. As I said earlier if a cycletrack is unsuitable for a motorbike, then it is unsuitable for a bicycle, and a motorbike will have good suspension to offset any argument about motorbikes greater speed. In fact on my bike I am regularly cycling around the speed limit, and overtaking cars. On the N11, I can get up to 55km/hr. The main reason I cannot get up to that speed all the time is the poor quality of the cycle tracks (and roads for that matter).

dumbyearbook

Fair enough I get what you guys are saying.

Mucco

http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/research.html

Here ya' go. A site summarising research into the safety of cycle lanes. It basically says they're more dangerous than the road.

M

kenmc

This is pretty clear I think and reinforces most of the points above:
Cycle paths 292 accidents per million cycle miles, against 104 for minor roads and 111 for major roads.

cyclopath2001

Mucco wrote:

http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/research.html
Here ya' go. A site summarising research into the safety of cycle lanes. It basically says they're more dangerous than the road.M

Especially when built by an Irish local authority.

Agent J

pete4130 wrote:

@ Agent J,

Interestingly I read an article on a study performed regarding cars and cyclists who do 7 don't wear cycle helmets. I can't remember the exact figures but from memory I think cars drove 18% closer to cyclists that chose to wear helmets as they saw them as being more experienced so thought the wouldn't need as much room as an inexperienced cyclists....sorry if thats off topic.

Wow. Makes logical(As in stupid) sense.

Still wouldnt take off my helmet though.

Correct me if i am wrong though. It is a rule of the road or something that we must were helmets?

pete4130

It isn't a rule to wear a helmet on the roads. requirements are lights, reflectors at night time. the bike to be roadworthy condition (this refers to 2 brakes, straight wheels in good condition, tyres, all nuts/bolts to be tight and the handlebars to be straight) according to the new rules of the road book...somewhere around page 155 I think.

I do recommend wearing a helemt, i personally do for my work commute.

Dirk Gently

dumbyearbook wrote:

that guy that pulled out in front of me was an idiot but imo he should have been on the cycle path full stop it was 7.30 am very few pedestrians the path was perfect for him i see loads of other bikes on it.

Out of interest did you notice what kind of bike it was?

The reason I ask is because I've been cycling mountain bikes for about 10 years now and always found the cycle paths ok (when walkers weren't in my way or cars parked on them) but I recently spent near 800 euro on a decent road bike with no suspension with really thin wheels. I've found that I'm very restricted in what routes I can take now and that the vast majority of cycle tracks are too dangerous for me to use. I now only use small stretches of cycle path here and there and use the road the majority of the time even if a cycle track is running adjacent. The simple fact of the mater is the cycle paths / tracks are not suitable for purpose. No cyclist would willingly use a road if he could safely use a cycle track without fear of crashing into people, damaging his/her bike. With the amount of cars parked on cycle tracks it’s actually better to stay on the road so as you don't have to swing out onto the road to over take parked cars.

On a certain road I use often I can cycle up a fairly steep hill using the perfect road surface at about 20 - 25kph. Same road coming down it if I use the cycle track I get about 10-15kph because I'm being bounced around the place on the bad surface. Thats 10kph faster going up the hill using the road surface than actually going down the hill using the cycle path. I'm not a speed junkie by any means just using it as an example of the differance in surfaces between road and track. If I'm not very careful going down that track I come off the bike and under a bus. Luckily there's too many pedestrians on the cycle path for me to lose control anyway because I usually have to crawl along asking people to move for me.

Get a lend of a road bike, cycle round Dublin for a week using cycle tracks and then report back as to which method is safer. I'm not being smart, it's just something I didn't even notice after 10 years of cycling until I got a decent bike. I feel like asking the government for a refund for my new bike. Imagine you bought a car and then had no where to drive it safely without damaging it and there were barriers in your way every few feet.

I agree with whoever said it above, there’s no such thing as cyclist’s v motorists v pedestrians, just good road users and bad road users. There are always going to be rouge cyclists, I see them everyday and they bug the hell out of me because it gives us all a bad name but the big problem is the cycle track system is not fit for purpose, forcing cyclists to be second class citizens and an unwelcome nuisance in the eyes of motorists and pedestrians.

oobydooby

clown bag wrote:

Out of interest did you notice what kind of bike it was?
... but I recently spent near 800 euro on a decent road bike with no suspension with really thin wheels. I've found that I'm very restricted in what routes I can take now and that the vast majority of cycle tracks are too dangerous for me to use. ... I feel like asking the government for a refund for my new bike. Imagine you bought a car and then had no where to drive it safely without damaging it and there were barriers in your way every few feet.

Yeah, it seems like if you want a new bike for many of Dublin's cycle tracks you need to get the equivalent of an SUV model

@ OP - I had the same naive view about cycle tracks until recently after chatting with people in the Dublin Cycling Campaign and hearing views on this forum. Here's my motor analogy: It's safer for cars to drive on a motorway but here are some drawbacks; after turning off a motorway motorists are used to speed and comfort which may dull their senses; if somebody learned to drive on a motorway and practiced on a motorway (exclusively) how would they then cope with regular roads...

Finally, how safe would a motorway be if it was "cost-effectivised" by having right turns off it / across it as a cost-cutter?

The bad condition of the tracks is symptomatic of cyclists being excluded from the planning process (and perhaps from the roads in the planners' plan).

dumbyearbook

oobydooby wrote:

clown bag wrote:

Out of interest did you notice what kind of bike it was?
... but I recently spent near 800 euro on a decent road bike with no suspension with really thin wheels. I've found that I'm very restricted in what routes I can take now and that the vast majority of cycle tracks are too dangerous for me to use. ... I feel like asking the government for a refund for my new bike. Imagine you bought a car and then had no where to drive it safely without damaging it and there were barriers in your way every few feet.

Yeah, it seems like if you want a new bike for many of Dublin's cycle tracks you need to get the equivalent of an SUV model

@ OP - I had the same naive view about cycle tracks until recently after chatting with people in the Dublin Cycling Campaign and hearing views on this forum. Here's my motor analogy: It's safer for cars to drive on a motorway but here are some drawbacks; after turning off a motorway motorists are used to speed and comfort which may dull their senses; if somebody learned to drive on a motorway and practiced on a motorway (exclusively) how would they then cope with regular roads...

Finally, how safe would a motorway be if it was "cost-effectivised" by having right turns off it / across it as a cost-cutter?

The bad condition of the tracks is symptomatic of cyclists being excluded from the planning process (and perhaps from the roads in the planners' plan).

I understand your point on the palnning process and exclusion of cyclists, but for the life of me don't know what the whole Motorway analogy is about.