2D Beat 'Em Ups...Does anyone care anymore?

Gizzle

Last week, while going around with a raging hangover hunger, I suddenly got an inexplicable urge to buy a 2D beat 'em up. Guilty Gear XX #Reload, specifically.

Anyway's long story short, couldn't find it anywhere, but I did pick up Neo Geo Battle Coliseum for a tenner(!), and it got me thinking, does anyone play 2D beat 'em ups anymore? I remember back in the day in my friends house we literally had a multiple ten hour solid sessions of Marvel versus Street Fighter, great depth and strategy required and good fun too.

Have the 3D fighters negated the need for 2D ones? What dye think?

WellyJ

I still prefer the 2d street fighters to any of the latest stuff like Tekken 5 etc.

The simplicity yet fiendish learning curve make them some of the best games of all time.

I LOVE Street fighter alpha 3 still play it all the time on my MAME cabinet,

Well with Kawaks. And now that Street Fighter 3 is emulated, cant get enough of that either.

Malice

Funny that this thread came up. I cracked and bought a convertor in Maplin yesterday to allow a PS2 joypad to be used on a PC. The difference it makes to MAME is astounding! Finally I can actually compete against the CPU on games
I'm trying to get to grips with King of Fighters 2000 at the moment so yes, I care anyway!

Do you regard games like Final Fight and Streets of Rage as 2D Beat 'Em Ups like Street Fighter II etc or would you say there are a completely different genre?

Retr0gamer

It's a case of the casual gamer going for established series like Tekken and ignoring 2D games because they aren't 3D. It doesn't matter that the 2D artwork in Guilty Gear is far better looking than any 3D fighter ever made the ignorant masses will think it's dated.

The casual market will also ignore games like Street Fighter 3, Guilty Gear and even the Virtua Fighter series for far inferior games like Tekken and Dead or Alive simply because they look better or are established franchises. If you look at the tournaments were all the best players play the most popular games are Street Fighter 3 and Virtua Fighter since they are considered the best. Games like Soul Calibur and Tekken are there but the level of play isn't nearly as good and are only there due to their popularity. The hardcore gaming market and the studios that are dedicated to still producing these games will keep them alive but it is destined to always be in the hardcore niche.

It's a real shame that we have come to a stage were 2D games just aren't going to sell no matter how good they are. I think since the 16-bit era 2D gameplay has been perfected and provides a much more solid experience than 3D gaming. Many hold up a buggy and often frustrating game like the GTA series as the pinnacle of the last generation of consoles. I found the 2D shmup Gradius V by far the best gaming experience of that generation, but hardly anyone bought it (when it was released I got a load of PM's from people thanking me for recommending it to them hasn't happened with any other games I recommend).

I've recently been playing Odin Sphere on the PS2 which is a 3D beat'em up with RPG elements. Despite all the Unreal Engine games and the previews of the latest games like Crysis, none of them match how gorgeous Odin Sphere looks.

Gizzle

malice_ wrote:

I'm trying to get to grips with King of Fighters 2000 at the moment so yes, I care anyway!

Do you regard games like Final Fight and Streets of Rage as 2D Beat 'Em Ups like Street Fighter II etc or would you say there are a completely different genre?

I was just talking about the "Capcom" style 2D beat 'em up. I think there's far more strategy involved and especially in vs. human matches, the psychology ramps the tension up to something that I've never experienced in any multiplayer game, regardless of genre. I fell out with a mate for a while once because he "cheesed" a victory in Marvel vs. Capcom 2, he beat me 45 games to 44.

And Guilty Gear? Fantastic game, finally got it yesterday, beautiful and sharp 2D graphics and animation. I'm a big fan of the instant kills too!

TechnoFreek

Gizzle wrote:

Have the 3D fighters negated the need for 2D ones? What dye think?

I do agree to some extent but I think fighters (both 2D and 3D) just like FPS's are a somewhat stagnant genre. That's not to say there are no good fighting games coming out but it just means that consumer interest has wained over the years due to market saturation

magick

yup too many 2d's cames into the market but SF2 is the daddy of em all but would love to play Street Fighter the first one, played in an arcade agggges ago and it wasnt bad at all !

Fnz

I don't like 3D beat em ups. I just can't get into 'em at all. It's just personal preference - I prefer the more 'cartoony' 2D style.

Retr0gamer wrote:

I've recently been playing Odin Sphere on the PS2 which is a 3D beat'em up with RPG elements. Despite all the Unreal Engine games and the previews of the latest games like Crysis, none of them match how gorgeous Odin Sphere looks.

I showed my brother Odin Sphere, then, with a puzzled expression he asked "why are the graphics so crap?".

Me: WHAAAAAAT?

Brother: It's not even 3D, I only like 3D graphics.

Me: aaAARRRGGGGHHHHH *head explodes*

Gizzle

magick wrote:

yup too many 2d's cames into the market but SF2 is the daddy of em all but would love to play Street Fighter the first one, played in an arcade agggges ago and it wasnt bad at all !

The one where you could only pick Ryu or Ken (Japan or the US)? Man, I remember playing that in Rocketts in Tramore about 14 years ago...memories...

From what I recall it was pretty woeful too. I'd a better time playing Pang.

*idea*

So, what are peoples favourite 2D beat 'em up? Not side scrolling beat 'em up, now...

Giblet

Sf3 Total class.

Fnz

I've played very little of Street Fighter 3 so that may yet prove to be best, but I've had the most fun with Street Fighter Alpha 2. I do not like the Street Fighter games that feature weird 'isms' (gimmicks) such as are found in Vs. Capcom and Vs. SNK. These Vs. games felt off balance to me.

Retr0gamer

Fnz wrote:

I showed my brother Odin Sphere, then, with a puzzled expression he asked "why are the graphics so crap?".

Me: WHAAAAAAT?

Brother: It's not even 3D, I only like 3D graphics.

Me: aaAARRRGGGGHHHHH *head explodes*

Had the same experience with my own brother. He thought I was playing a 'crap ugly SNES game' when I was playing Odin Sphere and he always complains about me playing Saturn games when I'm playing glorious looking 2D games like Soukyugurentai, Radiant Silvergun, Salamander 2 etc.

Strange thing is he doesn't mind me playing Gradius V because it's in 3D (it does look gorgeous I suppose but not Odin Sphere gorgeous).

Anyway my favourite 2D fighter is definitely SF2: Turbo. It is for me the best 2D fighter ever made. Wonderfully balanced and with a perfect combo and control system. I never liked the Supers in SSF2: Turbo so this is my SF2 version of choice.

I also have a soft spot for SNKs wonderful Samurai Showdown 2. It plays a lot differently to any other fighting game, very slow paced and strategic. It looked gorgeous as well. I remember many fighting game experts rated this higher than SF2 until Turbo came out.

L31mr0d

Yeah I do, i'll regularly take SF Alpha with me on my GBASP when traveling, great fun, Akuma ftw

Creature

I still play them all the time. Actually apart form the odd RPG and strategy 2D beat 'em ups are all I really play. I'm mostly playing Hyper Street fighter and the superb SF alpha Anthology (pretty much arcade perfect port) on the PS2 as well as those of the king of fighters series. Ignition did a good job bringing the SNK fighters over to the European market especially with KOF 2003 and 2002 but I found the others quite poor, Battle Coliseum in particular.

Its unfortunate that people tend to ignore the 2D fighters now because of the flashy 3D ones available. It is understandable though since a lot of people wouldn't even look at a game unless the graphics are 3D at least. Also the famous ones such as Tekken and Soul Calibur are pushed a lot more than the lesser known games like the King of fighters and Guilty Gear which most people wouldn't really know about unless they specifically look out for them.

My favourite is Super SF 2 Turbo.

Giblet

Don't like Turbo myself. Champ edition or Super Turbo maybe.

indough

Retr0gamer wrote:

If you look at the tournaments were all the best players play the most popular games are Street Fighter 3 and Virtua Fighter since they are considered the best. Games like Soul Calibur and Tekken are there but the level of play isn't nearly as good and are only there due to their popularity.

Ah now I think you're paraphrasing a bit there mate, Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast is widely regarded as being one of the best games ever, not to mention in the beat 'em up category. Must admit i've never been a Tekken fan myself though

Rabies

magick wrote:

yup too many 2d's cames into the market but SF2 is the daddy of em all but would love to play Street Fighter the first one, played in an arcade agggges ago and it wasnt bad at all !

Original Street Fighter in the arcade?

I used to have it on my C64. Don't think it was in the arcade.

Giblet

It used to have a half-basketball type thing sticking out of it that you punched. The harder you hit it, the harder the punch was. It kept getting broken so they replaced it with six buttons.

Rabies

Giblet wrote:

It used to have a half-basketball type thing sticking out of it that you punched. The harder you hit it, the harder the punch was. It kept getting broken so they replaced it with six buttons.

/runs to wiki


Ahhh.... so it was

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_Fighter_%28video_game%29

Its true, you do learn something new every day

thelordofcheese

Fnz wrote:

I don't like 3D beat em ups. I just can't get into 'em at all. It's just personal preference - I prefer the more 'cartoony' 2D style.


I showed my brother Odin Sphere, then, with a puzzled expression he asked "why are the graphics so crap?".

Me: WHAAAAAAT?

Brother: It's not even 3D, I only like 3D graphics.

Me: aaAARRRGGGGHHHHH *head explodes*

I'd have disowned him on the spot.
heck, i'll disown him for you if you want.

Fnz

thelordofcheese wrote:

I'd have disowned him on the spot.
heck, i'll disown him for you if you want.

s'alright, some childish name-calling sorted him out!

lol... me and my temper.

gizmo

Marvel Super Heroes
Marvel Vs. Capcom
Marvel Vs. Street Fighter
X-Men Vs. Street Fighter

*nyom*

evad_lhorg

i have that guilty gear game if you want it

Kinetic^

2D beat em ups are definately better than the 3d versions. There's just no need for them to be 3D.

Gizzle

evad_lhorg wrote:

i have that guilty gear game if you want it

Cheers evad, but after trawling all of Dublin City and not finding it anywhere, it was in my local Xtravision for the princely sum of €15. Score.

For all the hours I've put into it, Marvel vs. Capcom 2 would have to be my fave. I used to be the ultimate whiff-punisher with Jin and his Saotome Cyclone finisher.

And Akuma and his Shun Goku Satsu.

But then my mate built up an annoying team of Guile/Captain America/Ken and destroyed me with his unfeasibly high priority linking combo's to Final Justice. Fnarr.

evad_lhorg

I find marvel vs capcom 2 being the biggest button basher of the lot. the combos are way too easy to pull off.

Gizzle

evad_lhorg wrote:

I find marvel vs capcom 2 being the biggest button basher of the lot. the combos are way too easy to pull off.

Maybe, but it's not pulling off the combos that's skillful, it's linking them up correctly and timing them to get the maximum hits. If you fluff them then you leave yourself wide open for punishment.

Bubs101

Mortal Kombat

Retr0gamer

Bubs101 wrote:

Mortal Kombat

I hope you are trolling. The MK games are some of the worst 2D fighters ever. The best you can say about them is that MK2 was acceptable.

K.O.Kiki

There is a reason why fighting games are in decline.
The market for them has always been niche, we've just been too preoccupied by combos & frame stats to notice.
But while most genres of computer games have tried to move on, "hardcore" fighters just kept on inbreeding & getting more complex -- taking each others systems, modifying others, adding gauges, "states", and all that other guff new players can't be arsed.
And all the while, ignoring (for the most part) how to provide a better experience for those who don't have a big group for regular competition.

*sigh* Nowadays, I might play a little Garou or SFA3 online (3S when I feel like getting my butt kicked).
However, I have one last hope left: Super Smash Bros Brawl! Here's hoping the wizards at HAL remember how to teach kids the value of 2D awesomeness!

Retr0gamer

I think you made a very valid point there K. O. Kiki

I think the same thing is happening with Shmups. Some of the newer bullet hell games are so ridiculously tough that there is no enjoyment to be had by anyone but the real hardcore shmup players (just look at the videos for Mushihimesama on youtube). I lost interest in fighting games when move lists started to be over 100 moves long and more and more gimmicks like ism's and super gauges were introduced.

I think that the fighting game creators should look at the example of SF2 and SF3. They are simple uncomplicated games but with no less depth than games with silly combo's, gimmicks and ridiculously large move lists.