Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

spockety

There will be no problem with negotiating with the owners, his loan deal has a clause that specifies Liverpool's buyout option at a fixed price. Rumoured to be 17m, but the way football really works vs. what you see in the papaers it could well be less than that.

zing

IrishMike wrote: »

You do realise you are talking about
selling one of the 3 or 4 best central midfielders in Europe based on the performance
of Lucas in 3 games??

I said it wouldn't surprise me if Xabi was sold within 18 months - was certainly not calling for it. And it was based on more than just the 3 or 4 games Lucas has started - things like Xabi not being close to the form of his first season or two (but still streets ahead of many others), Rafa's apparent obsession with signing midfielders - particularly defensive ones along with him not being one with much time for sentiment.

Of the current 'best midfield in the world' I just see Momo going sooner rather than later and of the other 3 I think Xabi would be the most likely to go next.

There is a better chance of Anfield being sold than Alonso

News just in - Anfield was sold back in Feb..

prendy

Only thing i will say on that Rebel is how good a price is it?
€17 million seems an awful amount of money for a defensive midfielder.
I know he is only 23 but playing it around in my head i find it very hard to
justify that kind of outlay.
An example is Yaya Toure at Barcelona. He is very Sissoko like but is also
actually able to pass the ball!
A player like him could replace both Mascherano and Sissoko and he cost less
than €7 million.
Not for a second doubting Mascherano but just wondering if we are paying
Carrick money for the guy?

good point...17 mill seems alot for a position where we already have 4 top class players.
i agree that masc is a great player but if its a choice between him and strengthening 2 other positions...centre back/winger id have to go for 2 decent cover players.

~Rebel~

IrishMike wrote:

Only thing i will say on that Rebel is how good a price is it?
€17 million seems an awful amount of money for a defensive midfielder.
I know he is only 23 but playing it around in my head i find it very hard to
justify that kind of outlay.
An example is Yaya Toure at Barcelona. He is very Sissoko like but is also
actually able to pass the ball!
A player like him could replace both Mascherano and Sissoko and he cost less
than €7 million.
Not for a second doubting Mascherano but just wondering if we are paying
Carrick money for the guy?

No question its a lot of money, but i'd be confident we would make at least that much back on a future sale. Also, as was pointed out by someone else, it's probably less then the 17m in reality.

Yaya was a rarity though, fantastic value at reportedly between 6 and 8million pounds, but thats the other scale to the 'carrick money' comparison in that he was particularly under-priced, which happens far less then overpriced. I would definately prefer Masch anyway though.


Prendy, do we really have 4 top class players there already? I think we look immediately weaker without Masch. Sissoko is Not a top class player. He's a good player, and an effective player, but not top class by any stretch. Masch is also by a mile the best DMF in the Makalele mould at the club, also free's up both Alonso and Gerrard (and lucas) do be more effective up the park which Sissoko simply can't do.

E.g would we be where we are now if for the past few months we didn't have Masch to hold the fort for Alonso?

PHB

Yaya Toure was really really underpriced, and I've still no idea how that deal was done. Mascherano is a pretty good deal at 17 million, especialy when you consider resale value. Realisitically, even if he suddenly flopped, you'd still sell him on for 10. If he didn't, you'd easily make back what you got for him.

IrishMike

Torres 11
Babel 5
Benayoun 5
Voronin 4

25 Goals so far from 4 of rafas signings in the summer.
That is a pretty mindblowing return especially when you consider that Voronin and Babel
have started less than 20 games between them. ( and that dunphy and co reckon that they are rubbish!)

An Citeog

IrishMike wrote: »

Torres 11
Babel 5
Benayoun 5
Voronin 4

25 Goals so far from 4 of rafas signings in the summer.
That is a pretty mindblowing return especially when you consider that Voronin and Babel
have started less than 20 games between them. ( and that dunphy and co reckon that they are rubbish!)

Whatever about Babel but Voronin is distinctly average. I saw him quite a bit for Leverkusen last season and he just never impressed me. He's had some good games for Liverpool but I still see him as a bit of a headless chicken and I wouldn't want to be relying on him for goals. There's a reason why you got him for free!

Babel is a promising talent with pace to burn. Could prove to be a very good signing. Benayoun is another very good technical player but I'm not sure if he's got that much room for improvement in him. Again, time will tell.

Torres is pure class and one of the best signings Liverpool have made in a while. Could be the man to bring Liverpool onto that next level.

Tusky

On Mascherano, 17m is not over priced. If the current champions of the premiership can spend 17m on Hargreaves, 16m on Carrick (is that correct?) & 17m on Anderson we should be able to spend 17m on Mascherano.

Add to the fact that he is already settled at Liverpool and there is 0 chance that he will be a flop and I think is a great bit of business. Its not as if Rafa has overspent on center midfielder's.

5m for Sissoko
5m for Lucas
10m for Alonso

Some good business there...

Something I was thinking about today. We are the most decorated club in English football, probably in the top couple for worldwide fan base. We have recently got new owners, if these owners cant put forward the kind of cash that Utd & Chelsea can, what was the point of the takeover ? Surely we could have attracted somebody with a bigger wallet ?

An Citeog wrote: »

There's a reason why you got him for free!

Same reason Saviola & Ballack* were free ? His contract was up. I think hes a good player but is 4th choice at best and should be treated as such. When he gets picked ahead of the others its a little annoying. I also feel he is too similar to Kuyt so is kind of surplus to requirements at Anfield.

Guy:Incognito

Tusky wrote: »

Same reason Saviola & Shevshenko were free ? .

Did Chelsea not pay £30m for Shevchenko? Ballack was free, but he's Shyte . Come to think of it, so is Shevchenko.:)

PHB

if these owners cant put forward the kind of cash that Utd & Chelsea can, what was the point of the takeover ? Surely we could have attracted somebody with a bigger wallet ?

Maybe it was so they could make money? The owners are like the Glazers, but luckily for you, the cost of the club wasn't as high, so the debt isn't as high. Also they were smart enough not to transfer the debt onto the club, even though it is effectively on the club. They learnt a lot from the Glazer situation, and Liverpool fans, the majority of them, some Liverpool fans realised this from the start, are only beginning to see what the new owners are all about, and that's money.

An Citeog

Tusky wrote: »

Same reason Saviola & Shevshenko were free ? His contract was up. I think hes a good player but is 4th choice at best and should be treated as such. When he gets picked ahead of the others its a little annoying. I also feel he is too similar to Kuyt so is kind of surplus to requirements at Anfield.

Yeah, Shevchenko cost Chelsea around £30 million. They got Ballack for free, but tbh he'd been planning that for quite a while. He's got a reputation as somewhat of a mercenary and Bayern did all they could to persuade him to stay. He went to Chelsea because they offered him wages that nobody else in world football could match.

Voronin was an alright player for a fairly poor Leverkusen team. I'm sure they would have liked to keep him but weren't really that bothered in the end, particularly because they'd agreed a deal in principle with Patrick Helmes. Neither the fans nor the board fought vigorously to keep him. Yes, he's a decent 4th choice striker and I'm sure he can cover for injuries etc. I just don't see the point in bringing in mediocre players when you've got some very good young strikers coming through the youth ranks. Why not give the likes of Anderson etc their chance?

An Citeog

PHB wrote: »

Maybe it was so they could make money? The owners are like the Glazers, but luckily for you, the cost of the club wasn't as high, so the debt isn't as high. Also they were smart enough not to transfer the debt onto the club, even though it is effectively on the club. They learnt a lot from the Glazer situation, and Liverpool fans, the majority of them, some Liverpool fans realised this from the start, are only beginning to see what the new owners are all about, and that's money.

It's fairly simple:

American owners want a return on their investment.

Russian/Middle Eastern/some Asian owners just want a new toy. They don't just throw away their money, but the return on investment isn't what drives them.

IrishMike

An Citeog wrote: »

I just don't see the point in bringing in mediocre players when you've got some very good young strikers coming through the youth ranks. Why not give the likes of Anderson etc their chance?

Sorry to be pedantic but anderson is a winger while voronin is striker.
Imho it would have been better business to keep FSP and not sign voronin at all.
Think he would have added something different especially since Liverpool
finally seem to be playing more attacking football.
All ifs and maybes at this stage though

An Citeog

IrishMike wrote: »

Sorry to be pedantic but anderson is a winger while voronin is striker.
Imho it would have been better business to keep FSP and not sign voronin at all.
Think he would have added something different especially since Liverpool
finally seem to be playing more attacking football.
All ifs and maybes at this stage though

I don't really know much about the up and coming players but you get the point. 2 FA youth cup finals in a row, is it? I hear you've got some half decent young attackers. Also, Babel is really a striker, not a winger. So technically Voronin should be 5th choice.

Tusky

Stekelly wrote: »

Did Chelsea not pay £30m for Shevchenko? Ballack was free, but he's Shyte . Come to think of it, so is Shevchenko.:)

ugh. I meant Ballack I swear! Its been a long day.

An Citeog wrote: »

It's fairly simple:

American owners want a return on their investment.

Russian/Middle Eastern/some Asian owners just want a new toy. They don't just throw away their money, but the return on investment isn't what drives them.

Yeah...I wont judge the yanks too early. They said themselves that if they were just in it for the money, investing in a football club isnt the best way to do it which sounds believable. Surely there are better places to put your cash if you are simply interested in a return ?

However, DIC were worth 20 of Hicks+Gillett (in financial terms) so kind of disappointed we weren't bought by them considering how close it came. We spent around 46 million this summer but got back around 23 from sales so thats a total spend of 23. Hell of a lot of that came from our success in getting to the final of the champions league so they haven't really invested at all.

Sorry to be pedantic but anderson is a winger while voronin is striker.
Imho it would have been better business to keep FSP and not sign voronin at all.
Think he would have added something different especially since Liverpool
finally seem to be playing more attacking football.
All ifs and maybes at this stage though

I always liked Pongolle and he never really got a fair chance. However, he wanted regular first team football and he wasnt happy being 3rd of 4th choice so had to be sold.

Id be happy with-

Torres
Babel
Crouch
Kuyt

or

Torres
Crouch
Kuyt
new striker (and keep babel as a winger)

IrishMike

I would have even kept Neil Mellor rather than Voronin.
At least he was young had an amazing underage scoring record and could have been a
good squad player.

Guy:Incognito

IrishMike wrote: »

I would have even kept Neil Mellor rather than Voronin.
At least he was young had an amazing underage scoring record and could have been a
good squad player.

Not to mention a telling contribution in the Olyimpiakos and Arsenal games.

+1 for should have kept Mellor

IrishMike

Ah mellor against arsenal, now there is a memory

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cXUTIoL9DU

Brethitmanhart

Definately think keeping Pongolle would be best option, but if he wanted 1st team.
I think FSP played very well for us and was the key difference in the *******cos match aswell as playing very well against Luton.
Deserved better I think....I think he should have stayed for just another year as he could have broken into the team then.

sweetie

IrishMike wrote: »

I would have even kept Neil Mellor rather than Voronin.
At least he was young had an amazing underage scoring record and could have been a
good squad player.

where is he now?

Guy:Incognito

sweetie wrote: »

where is he now?

Preston

Kanney

Stekelly wrote: »

Preston

I thought he went to Rennes, somewhere in France anyway.

Guy:Incognito

Kanney wrote: »

I thought he went to Rennes, somewhere in France anyway.

Mellor? No, definately with Preston.


Pongolle went to Recreativo

ButcherOfNog

Good win for the reserves tonight, 3-0 against Everton, we played them off the pitch

Nemeth got two, thats four goals in his first two appearances, looks very promising, Leto impressed yet again, perhaps next season he'll be able to give a better account of himself in the first team.

Zapp Brannigan

Have to say thought Nemeth looked good today. Might Rafa have bought a gem for the future there? Pacheko looks like another poached Barca star, hope he progresses well. I think Jordy Brouwer is a bit muck though, never seen a good performance from him in the Reserves.

Melion

We've got a lot of unbelivable looking youngsters. There are a lot in the u-18's aswell. Amoo, Ajdarevic, Eccleston and Bueno are the top of the pile though

Zapp Brannigan

i think Marvin Puery (spelling?), the young german striker looks a decent prospect. And we can't forget about Lindfield, Anderson and Hamill.

Melion

Ive caught highlights of Paul Anderson a few times this season, he does look like he could be something special.

whatawaster

the reserves played very well last night. I've watched the last 4 or 5 games now, and the players who have really impressed me are Plessis (a sort of technically able Sissoko type player), Insua (really good going forward), Nemeth and Pacheco. Nemeth is just back from injury but 4 goals in 2 games is great by any standards and his general trickery on the ball was very pleasing. It'd be great if he got a game against Chelsea, imo we have too many big games coming up to play the likes of Gerrard, Carra, Torres in that game, so it would be great if he got a chance.

Pacheco looks a real find. he's small and slight but he's only 16, his touch is excellent and he's lightning. He is great at dropping deep or going wide and picking out a telling pass. Both the front two who finished the game last night looked very intelligent and it would be good to see them form a partnership. Especially as Brouwer looks rubbish.

Negatives for me were Leto (he's got ability, but doesn't know when to stop running, and plus he's not as young as some of the others so that goes against him)and Brouwer.

El Zhar also played very well on the right, though should have stayed on his feet for the penalty shout.

mike65

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/2007/12/05/kopello-89520-20205135/

Fabio Capello has been 'tapped up' twice by Liverpool as Rafa Benitez battles to stay in command at Anfield.

Capello claims he was contacted before and after last week's Champions League win over Porto as boss Benitez's relationship with owners George Gillett and Tom Hicks reached crisis point.

If any of this were true there would be much more detail.

Mike.

Glad to finally have access to here!

Big game to watch tonight (Newcastle v Arsenal), lets hope Arsenal somehow drop points! Its a hard month for Arsenal while we have some easy games so hopefully we can catch up.

What are all your views on how Sissoko has been playing? I think hes been terrible this year compared to a decent year last year. Had a nightmare in the Newcastle game and the games before he was just as bad.

mike65

Arsenal will be going north without Hleb and Fabregas I think while I suspect Newcastle will pull themselves together for this one.

Mike.

DeadSkin

KaG1888 wrote: »

Big game to watch tonight (Newcastle v Arsenal), lets hope Arsenal somehow drop points!

Hope is right . Newcastle are gone to the dogs the last few games.
I know we got a good result up there a couple of weeks ago, but they were poor, I don't see Arsenal droppin' points in this one.

Zapp Brannigan

can't see Arsenal losing to Newcastle, the barcodes are a shambles and Arsenal should have enough good players without Cesc and Hleb to put them to the sword.

Kanney

Stekelly wrote: »

Mellor? No, definately with Preston.


Pongolle went to Recreativo

I thought you were talking about Sinama

There are without Hleb Flamini and Cesc. I don't see it happening. Being at St.James Park is actually going to go against Newcastle if recent results are to be taken into account. Would be nice to see Arsenal draw from their game in hand.
Carragher should be back for the weekend trip to Reading? Anyone else on for a Torres hat trick?

mike65

Shush! He'd need to start first

Mike.

Lads I think the match tonight will be different. Big Sam has to get a result I feel as the 3-1 loss at the weekend was a shocker following the hockeying we gave them(SISSOKO WAS EVEN PLAYING ). It wouldn't suprise me if they got a draw or even won ,BUT saying that Arsenal are favorites for sure. Cesc and Hleb not playing could make a big difference.

Torres is doing great and he looks absolutely world class, hes been the striker we've been waiting for for years! Bring on Rio and Vidic Sunday week, they wont be able to catch this fella.

Spud83

KaG1888 wrote: »

Lads I think the match tonight will be different. Big Sam has to get a result I feel as the 3-1 loss at the weekend was a shocker following the hockeying we gave them(SISSOKO WAS EVEN PLAYING ). It wouldn't suprise me if they got a draw or even won ,BUT saying that Arsenal are favorites for sure. Cesc and Hleb not playing could make a big difference.

Torres is doing great and he looks absolutely world class, hes been the striker we've been waiting for for years! Bring on Rio and Vidic Sunday week, they wont be able to catch this fella.

Why is Helb out?

alanmurphy83

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Why is Helb out?

From Arsenal website
''And during that morale-boosting victory in Birmingham, Hleb collected a hamstring problem while Flamini fell victim to a recurrence of his thigh injury.''

IrishMike

Arsenal could be in a spot of bother for this game.
Surely Newcastle will pull some sort of a performance and drag a draw out of somewhere.
Then again Theo Walcott could come from the bench and score a hattrick!

IrishMike

IrishMike wrote: »

Arsenal could be in a spot of bother for this game.
Surely Newcastle will pull some sort of a performance and drag a draw out of somewhere.
Then again Theo Walcott could come from the bench and score a hattrick!

Hopefully he stays on that bench....although he might start with those injuries. I see these kind of games as big games for Liverpool because we won there.

Tusky

Arent Arsenal without Hleb, Flamini, Fabregas & Ven Persie ? Some of their best players...

Wouldn't be surprised at if the result was a draw. Heres hoping! Also, I have a feeling Torres wont start in our next three games. We play Reading, Marseille & then utd within a week or so and I fear Rafa will rest him for one of them. Maybe Reading ?

herbieflowers

they were without them, except Flamini, versus Villa and Villa are a much better side...can they cope agian? It's a real test of character but they seem to be able to grind out win after win regardless at the moment...

Hopefully Torres will be given a rest, versus Man U! Benitez goes bonkers...if he;s not already!

Tusky

herbieflowers wrote: »

they were without them, except Flamini, versus Villa and Villa are a much better side...can they cope agian? It's a real test of character but they seem to be able to grind out win after win regardless at the moment...

Hopefully Torres will be given a rest, versus Man U! Benitez goes bonkers...if he;s not already!

Thought Hleb played against Villa ?

whatawaster

Tusky wrote: »

Arent Arsenal without Hleb, Flamini, Fabregas & Ven Persie ? Some of their best players...

Wouldn't be surprised at if the result was a draw. Heres hoping! Also, I have a feeling Torres wont start in our next three games. We play Reading, Marseille & then utd within a week or so and I fear Rafa will rest him for one of them. Maybe Reading ?

No, Torres MUST play all three. Rest him vs Chelsea in the league cup. Ditto Gerrard. It's vital we win the next two games and go into the United game with momentum. If we're two up at half time against reading, rest them then.

prendy

Rest him in training...he's young and well able to play 3 games a week!
dont understand this resting players crap...surely a game is better than training..if he needs a rest then give him a day off training!

PHB

Thought Hleb played against Villa ?

He did, and he was utterly immense. Incredible performance. I'm very hopeful about Newcastle tonight, if only it were anybody but Newcastle :P

Jazzy

whatawaster wrote: »

No, Torres MUST play all three. Rest him vs Chelsea in the league cup. Ditto Gerrard. It's vital we win the next two games and go into the United game with momentum. If we're two up at half time against reading, rest them then.

bingo!

PHB

Realistically I think we'll see Torres rested for the CL game. Especially considering United will be sending out kids against Roma.

dobsdave

Kanney wrote: »

.......Carragher should be back for the weekend trip to Reading?

On the echo site, said that Benitez was considering not playing Carragher at Reading as if he gets a yellow card he misses the Utd game.