Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

kida

spockety wrote: »

It's hardly easy. A lot of the teams they were playing during these runs were relegation or UEFA cup spot scrappers who had a lot riding on the matches.

But see, there you go again anyway.. when Liverpool do something it's always for any other reason other than the fact they were good and deserved it!

I wasn't commneting on the teams they played. There was no pressure on Liverpool as it didn't really matter if they won or lost.

Show me the last time Liverpool had a meaningful run when they had a realistic chance of winning the league. League winners consistently do this.

mike65

It always matters. If only for CL quaification.

Mie.

spockety

kida wrote: »

I wasn't commneting on the teams they played. There was no pressure on Liverpool as it didn't really matter if they won or lost.

Show me the last time Liverpool had a meaningful run when they had a realistic chance of winning the league. League winners consistently do this.

My point is that it really doesn't make any difference to you or people with that kind of opinion. Even if Liverpool win the league it still won't matter, there will have been some other reason for it.

kida

spockety wrote: »

My point is that it really doesn't make any difference to you or people with that kind of opinion. Even if Liverpool win the league it still won't matter, there will have been some other reason for it.

dodge the issue - so when was it then?

Melion

The reason we havent been pushing for the title in previous seaons is because of píss poor starts, thats been shown and proven. For 2 years running we had the most points from October to May, surely that shows we can go on a title challenging run.

herbieflowers

I'm not sure if I buy the poor start equation. I mean, every team encounters a bad run at some stage does it really matter when it occurs in the season?

Melion

herbieflowers wrote: »

I'm not sure if I buy the poor start equation. I mean, every team encounters a bad run at some stage does it really matter when it occurs in the season?

Of course it does, if you're too far behind by october you wont get back into it. Whereas if your top by 6 points, have a blip and end up only 3 points behind its not as bad.

Unearthly

Melion wrote: »

The reason we havent been pushing for the title in previous seaons is because of píss poor starts, thats been shown and proven. For 2 years running we had the most points from October to May, surely that shows we can go on a title challenging run.

Have you got proof that you had more points from October to May?

I'm only going by my own instinct here but I can remember Man Utd and Chelsea going on amazing runs throughout the season apart from the odd game or 2 near the end when the title was decided. I also remember Liverpool dropping points because they were resting for CL

Open to be proven wrong though.

herbieflowers

So a bad start implies that you're going to lose more points than a mere bad patch?

Melion

Unearthly wrote: »

Have you got proof that you had more points from October to May?

I'm only going by my own instinct here but I can remember Man Utd and Chelsea going on amazing runs throughout the season apart from the odd game or 2 near the end when the title was decided. I also remember Liverpool dropping points because they were resting for CL

Open to be proven wrong though.

Ill have a look, and im not talking about last season

Melion

herbieflowers wrote: »

So a bad start implies that you're going to lose more points than a mere bad patch?

If you start off poor when other teams start off well you could easily be 15 points behind after 10 games. Compare to the team top of the table in January, maybe 6 points ahead. They have a blip, knocks them for a few games and that leaves them 6-9 points behind. So yes, im saying its probably better to have a blip mid-season rather that at the start of the season

Unearthly

Oops sorry

So that makes it 2004/2005 plus 2005/2006 then?

Can't see it being 2004/2005 as you finished below Everton and lost many times. Chelsea also finished nearly 40 points ahead of you

Challenge is on Melion

herbieflowers

Yeah, i'm not disagreeing with you I was just wondering that's all...it;s better to be ahead I guess than to be chasing, but I don't think it was solely down to Liverpool's poor starts that they didn't win the league. They generally lost / dropped points agaisnt the big sides, despite good form after Xmas, and tended to drop points from resting players etc.

Dont be at yourself

kida: for the last few seasons, we were out of the league by October. As such, we can't show you a run of games that was crucial to the title. This isn't news.

However, as mike pointed out, we put together not one, but two 'championship winning form' runs in the 05/06, which included a record-breaking number of clean sheets, and played out alongside runs in the CL and FA Cup. That we managed to do all that and finish 1 point off United in the league after such a shocking opening few weeks of the campaign surely demonstrates an equally great mental and physical toughness.

But as spockety says, some people would rather argue that black is white than entertain the notion that Liverpool are title contenders.

An Citeog

Nobody's saying Liverpool aren't title contenders. The point is, you can't claim to have "championship winning form" if you haven't actually won the championship in nearly 20 years. If Liverpool finish top of the league in May, then you can look back and say that those scrappy victories were "championship winning form".

Dont be at yourself

Nobody's saying Liverpool aren't title contenders. The point is, you can't claim to have "championship winning form" if you haven't actually won the championship in nearly 20 years. If Liverpool finish top of the league in May, then you can look back and say that those scrappy victories were "championship winning form".

Aha! The crux of the problem. You seem to be operating off a different definition of 'championship-winning form' to everybody else!

In football terms, 'championship-winning form' means the ability to put together a run of wins, including taking 3 points from tight games and even games were you didn't deserve them, over a long period of time. How a team fared in previous seasons has no relevance on their 'championship-winning form' for the current season. What with it being a different championship and all.

Just to clarify: it does not mean 'the form of teams who have won the championship in the last 20 years'.

kida

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

kida: for the last few seasons, we were out of the league by October. As such, we can't show you a run of games that was crucial to the title. This isn't news.

However, as mike pointed out, we put together not one, but two 'championship winning form' runs in the 05/06, which included a record-breaking number of clean sheets, and played out alongside runs in the CL and FA Cup. That we managed to do all that and finish 1 point off United in the league after such a shocking opening few weeks of the campaign surely demonstrates an equally great mental and physical toughness.

But as spockety says, some people would rather argue that black is white than entertain the notion that Liverpool are title contenders.

take a look back to 05/06 - Once Utd had no chance of the league they took their foot of the gas. How many points behind were they when Utd had a chance to win the league?

An Citeog

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Aha! The crux of the problem. You seem to be operating off a different definition of 'championship-winning form' to everybody else!

In football terms, 'championship-winning form' means the ability to put together a run of wins, including taking 3 points from tight games and even games were you didn't deserve them, over a long period of time. How a team fared in previous seasons has no relevance on their 'championship-winning form' for the current season. What with it being a different championship and all.

Just to clarify: it does not mean 'the form of teams who have won the championship in the last 20 years'.

It's more about precedence than a regressional analysis of each teams performance in previous seasons. It's only championship winning form if you go on to win the championship. All of the top 4 teams are capable of putting and have put a run of wins together, even Liverpool! The difference is that United, Arsenal and Chelsea have all gone on to lift the title whereas Liverpool haven't.

Maybe I just view it differently to others. I just think there are some terms in football that are over-used and have lost a lot of meaning, this being a mild case of that.

Tusky

An Citeog wrote: »

It's more about precedence than a regressional analysis of each teams performance in previous seasons. It's only championship winning form if you go on to win the championship. All of the top 4 teams are capable of putting and have put a run of wins together, even Liverpool! The difference is that United, Arsenal and Chelsea have all gone on to lift the title whereas Liverpool haven't.

Maybe I just view it differently to others. I just think there are some terms in football that are over-used and have lost a lot of meaning, this being a mild case of that.

Hmmm - I think this (which seems pointless and silly) is down to a disagreement over the meaning of a term. Championship winning form to me, is when a team goes on a run, winning games comfortably and then scraping 1-0 wins when needed. Its when a team is playing really good over a period of time. That is championship winning form.

If they have won the championship recently or wither they go on to win it that season, is irrelevant. There form could dip, they could pick up injuries and finishing in 2nd, 3rd or 4th. That doesn't change that fact that for a time, they were playing championship winning stuff. This is just my opinion of course!

Example - Arsenal for the most part of this season have been on championship winning form. If they suddenly turn crap after Christmas and finish 4th...that doesn't take away from the fact that we were in championship winning form up until Christmas.

spockety

Yeah but Liverpool playing this season are not the same as Liverpool playing last season, 4 seasons ago, or 19 seasons ago.

Same goes for Utd, Chelsea, and Arsenal.
They can only be judged on what they're doing this season. Right now, all the top 4 are playing Championship winning football. If they weren't, it wouldn't be so tight at the top.

BTW, if it was about precedence, then you would have been saying 3 years ago that Chelsea weren't playing "Championship Winning" football, despite a cash injection of 300M and topping the table, because they hadn't won a league in 50 years!

herbieflowers

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

However, as mike pointed out, we put together not one, but two 'championship winning form' runs in the 05/06, which included a record-breaking number of clean sheets, and played out alongside runs in the CL and FA Cup. That we managed to do all that and finish 1 point off United in the league after such a shocking opening few weeks of the campaign surely demonstrates an equally great mental and physical toughness.

But as spockety says, some people would rather argue that black is white than entertain the notion that Liverpool are title contenders.

Come on, do you actually beleive that any team in the league that year were genuine titel contenders? Chelsea destroyed everyone in their path! Utd (falsely) were considered title contenders not because they were anywhere near Chelsea but by virtue of the fact that they were second for the majority of the season! Which counts for sweet fa if you're behind as much as they were.

The reason I don't think Pool were challengers that season or last season for that matter was because of their results for the most part against the top sides. In 05/06 iirc they were hammered by Chelsea at home and drew against Utd at home too, lost away to Chelsea and Utd too.

zing

Melion is right about more points from Oct -> May for at least one season. Distinctly remember Andy Gray or some other muppet like him spouting on about how if the season had started in October we'd have won the league. But of course the season didn't start in October so it was a pretty pointless thing for them to say.

~Rebel~

Aye, in 05/06 we had more points then United and Chelsea from october till season's end.

I find this whole "its easy to win games once your out of contention" thing kind of laughable. Do the opposition suddenly take it easy against you if your out of contention? I don't think so. You still have to go out there, play your game, and get the 3 points. If anything it would make more sense to start dropping stupid points once out of contention as the concentration/goal wouldn't be there so the teams own performance level would drop and other teams would beat them easier (such as what Charlton used always do once they got safe, and their goal for the season had effectively been achieved).

Herbie; I know what you're saying about all teams having their blips, so whats the difference if its at the start of the season rather then middle. I agree with the others that its tougher coming from behind (thats what she said), but i dont think this is the reason. Liverpool haven't just had blips at the start, they've been absolutely awful. If ManU or Chelsea's blips had been as bad as Liverpool starts then i dont think they'd have won the leagues themselves either. Hopefully this season signals an end of these disasterous starts, but we wont know till next season i guess!

PHB

My thing about Liverpool and title running form is that they haven't yet put together a string of results. Take for example a 7 game period. United have been able to get 21 points in that. Arsenal have been able to get 21 points in that. Chelsea have been able to get 19 points in that. The best Liverpool have done is 15 points. They keep slipping up, constantly. United slipped up at the start, and boucned back. Chelsea have slipped up at the start, but bounced back. Arsenal had a great start, and now slipped up. The big question is now can they bounce back. Liverpool still haven't shown that ability to put together those runs this year.

People will say, oh they've done it in the past. Maybe so, but they've never done it when they were title contenders. Is that a coincidence? I don't think so.

Tusky

PHB wrote: »

My thing about Liverpool and title running form is that they haven't yet put together a string of results. Take for example a 7 game period. United have been able to get 21 points in that. Arsenal have been able to get 21 points in that. Chelsea have been able to get 19 points in that. The best Liverpool have done is 15 points. They keep slipping up, constantly. United slipped up at the start, and boucned back. Chelsea have slipped up at the start, but bounced back. Arsenal had a great start, and now slipped up. The big question is now can they bounce back. Liverpool still haven't shown that ability to put together those runs this year.

People will say, oh they've done it in the past. Maybe so, but they've never done it when they were title contenders. Is that a coincidence? I don't think so.

I'd go along with that. I think we have been really good this season but its the odd result that has disappointed i.e Reading or Birmingham. Having said that, we are only 6 points behind utd and have a game in hand so all is still to play for.

PHB

Absolutely, but the thing is, if you look at United's form or Chelsea's form, they are putting together big runs, then failing, then putting together big runs again.
Liverpool are still only 6 points behind because United had a very poor start and Chelsea had a bad patch when Mourinho got sacked. The issue is, unless something changes at Liverpool, they will continue to slide. What that is, I'm not sure, but Rafa has to change his methods/tactics. It's still all to play for, but unless something changes at Liverpool, by March they will be significantly behind the other three.

~Rebel~

PHB wrote: »

Absolutely, but the thing is, if you look at United's form or Chelsea's form, they are putting together big runs, then failing, then putting together big runs again.
Liverpool are still only 6 points behind because United had a very poor start and Chelsea had a bad patch when Mourinho got sacked. The issue is, unless something changes at Liverpool, they will continue to slide. What that is, I'm not sure, but Rafa has to change his methods/tactics. It's still all to play for, but unless something changes at Liverpool, by March they will be significantly behind the other three.

Can look at it both ways, we need something to change from our current seasons form, to bring it up a notch to eradicate the consistent slip ups your mention, or alternatively we need things to be the same i.e to have the form we usually have from this point of the season onwards. Dont know about Rafa needing to change tactics/methods, whatever he's done in the past would sit pretty well with me!

I know what your saying that we havent shown that form while still title contenders, but on the other hand, we haven't ever been title contenders at this point anyway (under Rafa) so we're entering a new situation altogether of actually having a chance.

Fingers crossed! Will be delighted to have a fit and fresh Alonso, and even Pennant, for the second half of the season

zing

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Will be delighted to have a fit and fresh Alonso, and even Pennant, for the second half of the season

And dare I add Kewell to that list...

Tusky

PHB wrote: »

Absolutely, but the thing is, if you look at United's form or Chelsea's form, they are putting together big runs, then failing, then putting together big runs again.
Liverpool are still only 6 points behind because United had a very poor start and Chelsea had a bad patch when Mourinho got sacked. The issue is, unless something changes at Liverpool, they will continue to slide. What that is, I'm not sure, but Rafa has to change his methods/tactics. It's still all to play for, but unless something changes at Liverpool, by March they will be significantly behind the other three.

I suppose we will just have to wait and see! Before the season I said I would be happy if we were challenging for the top and thats exactly what is happening so Im a happy fan as is.

Melion

PHB wrote: »

Absolutely, but the thing is, if you look at United's form or Chelsea's form, they are putting together big runs, then failing, then putting together big runs again.
Liverpool are still only 6 points behind because United had a very poor start and Chelsea had a bad patch when Mourinho got sacked. The issue is, unless something changes at Liverpool, they will continue to slide. What that is, I'm not sure, but Rafa has to change his methods/tactics. It's still all to play for, but unless something changes at Liverpool, by March they will be significantly behind the other three.

Excuses again, United had a poor start and Mourinho had a blip(did they?) when Mourinho got sacked. We have lost 1 game this season, what is all this talk about?

kida

Melion wrote: »

Excuses again, United had a poor start and Mourinho had a blip(did they?) when Mourinho got sacked. We have lost 1 game this season, what is all this talk about?

how many back to back PL wins have Liverpool got?

Melion

kida wrote: »

how many back to back PL wins have Liverpool got?

What has that got to do with anything, out of interest?

How many CL's have United got?

How big is your da?

shotamoose

Momo's mouthing off again.

Sissoko: I Want To Leave

Liverpool midfielder Momo Sissoko has declared that he is sick and tired over his lack of playing time at the club and wants to leave.

The 23-year-old has barely featured this season, and is behind the likes of Steven Gerard, Javier Mascherano and Xabi Alonso in the centre-midfield pecking order.

The Malian international’s lack of action has led to rumours he will leave Liverpool in January, and the player himself admits this is more than a possibility.

“I am sick and tired and want to leave,” said Sissoko.

“I am really disappointed because the game against Marseille [on Tuesday night] I was counting on.

“I respect the choices of the coach but now I want to discuss my future before the January transfer market. I am not happy about playing one game per month.”

Sissoko has been heavily associated with a transfer to Juventus, with their boss Claudio Ranieri a huge admirer.

The Bianconeri placed a bid for the ex-Valencia man in the summer, however they were scared off by his price tag.

With Juve in desperate need of a new centre-midfielder, there is every chance they may table a fresh offer next month.

Might be best for all concerned if Juve did come back with a nice big offer in January. I don't think Momo can really have too many complaints about the chances Rafa's given him but if he wants out so be it.

Jazzy

sell sell sell! Lucas is far superior

d22ontour

Melion wrote: »

Excuses again, United had a poor start and Mourinho had a blip(did they?) when Mourinho got sacked. We have lost 1 game this season, what is all this talk about?

So you are saying United didn't have a poor start ? Last i checked it was Uniteds worst start in 15+ years,Liverpools best start in how many years ? Lost 1 game ,that's pretty impressive though drawing 6 isnt.

:rolleyes:

Jazzy

Melion wrote: »

How many CL's have United got?

way to make a point! cos thats loike totally relevant!

their point is that to mount a serious title challenge we have to rack up a long string of victories... not just 3 in a row.
and you know wat... they're right!

PiE

Oh god keep it in the match thread.

sweetie

indeed, theirs been an infection of manu fans in here.
might go and start spouting ****e in their thread

Unearthly

sweetie wrote: »

indeed, theirs been an infection of manu fans in here.
might go and start spouting ****e in their thread

:rolleyes:

I suggest you go read Desf's post in the rules discussion topic. He makes a good point about comments like the above.

d22ontour

sweetie wrote: »

indeed, theirs been an infection of manu fans in here.
might go and start spouting ****e in their thread

Sure if we have to read ya doing it here then why not there too ?

Guy:Incognito

Are Mali in the African nations?I'd imagine Momo would be a bit harder to shift if he'll be head straigh toff on any club he signs for. Probably wont go anywhere till the summer.

machiavellianme

Whats the story with the new stadium plans being scrapped? The BBC quote the mirror as saying its no longer viable? Terrible news if true as it really begs the question as to why we got the Americans onboard.

mike65

I'll wait for a more substantial article.

Mike.

Tusky

Lots of stories coming out now that the stadium plans are to be scrapped and a more modest design is to be used. sigh.

astrofool

I'm sure Everton will let you share their new stadium, you can be joint sponsored by Tesco, like Rangers/Celtic did/do with ntl/carling

PHB

I thought they had been approved by the council already? Will they have to go through the whole process again. The credit crunch is gona hit these plans hard, I wonder how Arsenals loans are doing. United are pretty worried about it, the Glazers are desperately trying to refinance. That said, the plans for the new stadium were put forth when the credit crunch was already in full swing.

Tusky

PHB wrote: »

I thought they had been approved by the council already? Will they have to go through the whole process again. The credit crunch is gona hit these plans hard, I wonder how Arsenals loans are doing. United are pretty worried about it, the Glazers are desperately trying to refinance. That said, the plans for the new stadium were put forth when the credit crunch was already in full swing.

Not sure about the planning. I think they got planning permission for a 60,000 seater stadium regardless of the design. They would have the option to bring the capacity up to 78,000 before it was to be completed.

There has basically been three different stadiums in the works.

60,000 bowl stadium (7 year old Moorse plans)
70-78,000 unique looking Texan design (at a cost of 500m+)
70,000 bowl stadium (tweaked version of Moorse plans)

As far as reports are concerned, the unique stadium with the glass sides and massive kop has been ditched for a tweaked version of the bowl stadium. Theres has been uproar on lots of Liverpool sites. Personally, I liked both designs so Im not overly fussed although what worries me is the timing. The club did not need this news to leak the day before our game against utd. Specially with everything that has gone on over the last couple of months...

Heres a good breakdown of situation : http://www.anfieldroad.com/news/200712152734/parry-hints-at-changes-to-stadium-plans.html/

sweetie

Unearthly wrote: »

:rolleyes:

I suggest you go read Desf's post in the rules discussion topic. He makes a good point about comments like the above.

Apologies, have a bad flu and was just getting tired of all the pool v united stuff.
No offence meant to any utd fans and most of them make good points on this thread (phb, archimedes etc~)

won't happen again

mayordenis

can't really expect people to keep up with every little whim of the mods at all times anyway.

GBX

Saw the highlights from the Bolton v City game, Guthrie looked good today. Set up a few chances.