Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

NotWormBoy

It'd have been different if Liverpool had hit the bar a few times, or had spurned a host of chances or something like that. But we didn't create anything really of note in the second half. If you want to stick the word tactically in before outclassed, feel free then you might see where I'm coming from. But I don't mean just tactically.

Drag00n79

It was a horrible match. I had a feeling after Torres' header went wide that it would turn out as it did. Just like last year our profligacy in front of goal came back to haunt us. However, I didn't expect the United winning goal to be as much our fault as it was.

The fact is we created sweet f.a. in the 2nd half bar a couple of speculative long shots - and thats the thing I find hardest to swallow about today's performance. Of course, probably our best passer was missing in Alonso but that does not excuse our ineffectual play when we were chasing the game. Like most of the other fans I feel we have a few in our panel who simply are not good enough for this club - despite the substantial money paid out on them in some cases. All in all, today was a very bad day not because we lost to United but because we never looked like getting nor deserving anything more.

Paul Tergat

Serious question here now...do you think that you can sustain a title challenge?

i know a few of you pool fans are saying that some players aren't good enough and when you add in you still have to play the big teams all away (and your recent record isn't good against the big teams in the PL) does that mean we can expect to see you battling for 3rd/4th rather than the title?

also, lets say you are given £30m for January - who do you go out and buy? do you go for one top drawer player or 3 10m players?

Jazzy

we need wingers. good ones... with brains

Mr Alan

btw, if we rotated today we would have won!!

~Rebel~

Being cold about it, i wouldn't mind selling say 2 (or maybe even 3) of Pennant Yossi Kewell and Riise and bringing in 1 proper world class winger who can do the unexpected and add another dimension. The same for up front. I love Kuyt, I love his work ethic and the things he can do when he's on form. He can be a great finisher and he can be a great link up man, but these things seem to be dropping out of his game a bit and if they dont come back, we should seriously be thinking of offloading. Maybe sell himself or Voronin and bring in a second proper top notch player like Huntelaar, or even cheaper, maybe Afonso Alves or Amauri (who would both be decent options if crouch was sold, adding similer attributes but with extra pace)

Paul Tergat

Well 2 of ya's have mentioned wingers, but who would it be?

and who would be the other winger? would it be a case of playing Gerrard right alonso/masch centre and then buying left winger?

Guy:Incognito

Mr Alan wrote: »

btw, if we rotated today we would have won!!

Or if Rafa knew how to defend set pieces. Zonal markign is poo. I honestly think it's pure luck we havent conceded more from corners. Any gob****e knows to have someone on the edge of the box to counter the lieks of Rooney hanging around there and doing exactly what he did. Utd had two more players inside Rooney that could have come onto that ball aswell. When the ball deflected to Tevez there ended up being 3 players standing on their own in our 6 yard box (inc Tevez)

Another mistake I think was made in the goal was Kewell. If you look at Masch, just before Rooney hits it, he runs off the line and outside the 6 yard box. Kewell stayed on the line. When Tevez scored Reina put his hand up. I think Kewell was supposed to come off the line like Masch and Tevez would have been offside, but he stood on the post instead.

We might have lacked going forward but at least if we hadnt conceded a soft goal at least we wouldnt have lost.

Zapp Brannigan

Quaresma or Mancini and I'd be happy. Benzema to replace either Crouch, Kuyt or Voronin and I'd be a very happy man!

Mr Alan

Stekelly wrote: »

Or if Rafa knew how to defend set pieces. Zonal markign is poo. I honestly think it's pure luck we havent conceded more from corners.

Andy Gray?! is that you?!??!

Rafa has used zonal marking since he came to Liverpool and our defensive record is outstanding. Zonal marking is the business!

Melion

Jesus christ, the over-reaction is back anyway.
Sell Pennant? Why?
He was excellent for us this season until he got injured(bar the Porto game).

~Rebel~

p_larkin99 wrote:

also, lets say you are given £30m for January - who do you go out and buy? do you go for one top drawer player or 3 10m players?

Hmmm think i'd approach Ajax about a potential swap+cash deal for Huntelaar in exchange for Kuyt. Would probably leave about 23/25ish million.

Id go for Benzema with an offer of 14 or so million from Lyon.

Id offer 6 or 7 million for Mancini since he's a bit of a want away and also look at the situation of Carlos Eduardo who joined the german second division from Gremio last year on a dodgy looking stepping stone/acclimitisation move.

final 4 to 6 ish million on a CB.

Guy:Incognito

Mr Alan wrote: »

Andy Gray?! is that you?!??!

Rafa has used zonal marking since he came to Liverpool and our defensive record is outstanding. Zonal marking is the business!

Seriously, how can you defend that defending (:D)? It was so obvious that we are weak like taht and Utd exposed it with ease. Why not back up what your sayign instead of just sayign "it's good ok"

Zonal markign resulted in no player on the edge of the box when Rooney was hanging around there (he does that all the time, does Rafa not watch football that doesnt involve Liverpool?) and him haveign a free shot. It also resulted in Tevez and 2 others standing on their own in the 6 yard box.

How can you defend that system?

~Rebel~

Melion wrote:

Jesus christ, the over-reaction is back anyway.
Sell Pennant? Why?
He was excellent for us this season until he got injured(bar the Porto game).

Pennant is good, but do you honestly think that should be the height of our ambitions? Decent? Thats why I said i was being cold about it, because he's not done much wrong, he's just not something particularly special, which is what id love at the club. Would be happy to have Pennant as backup and sell Benayoun (which is why i mentioned a list and said sell 2), but the point was that all of those listed would drop down the pecking order or be sold.

Im not convinced by Quaresma, not very consistent.

Mr Alan

Stekelly wrote: »

Why not back up what your sayign instead of just sayign "it's good ok"

Have we not had the best defensive record in the league for the last three seasons using zonal marking?

Stekelly wrote: »

How can you defend that system?

same as above

Guy:Incognito

Mr Alan wrote: »

Have we not had the best defensive record in the league for the last three seasons using zonal marking?




same as above

As I said , I think we've been very lucky.

Does it matter how good our defensive record is when we lost? We are 5th and 9 points off the top. I'd happily swap 10 goals conceded for 10 points.

We lost a very vital game (moreso after last week) as a direct result of zonal marking.

I dont think that it was a coincidence that Torres was on the egde of the box in the 2nd half.

Paul Tergat

Personally i reckon Pool shouldn't play with wingers, think it suits them to more more through the middle in a diamond?

Mascherano

Alonso - Lucas (you all seem to rate him highly)

Gerrard

Gerrard could be given a free role and not have to worry too much about the defensive side of the game? would that not work out for ya's?



also, when looking at signings, should Pool be looking at these young players (Rebel you mentioned Carlos Eduardo) and be waiting another few seasons for them to develop or buying finished products like Torres.
To me Pool seem to buy iffy players who arent top notch - Benayoun/Kuyt 2 players i am not a fan of and don't believe should be in a top team.

Mr Alan

so now we are not good enough defensively?! come on! teams give away soft goals, we give away less than most teams (all other teams in the PL?), there is nothing wrong with zonal marking.

you cant argue with how successful its been for us.

Guy:Incognito

Mr Alan wrote: »

so now we are not good enough defensively?! come on! teams give away soft goals, we give away less than most teams (all other teams in the PL?), there is nothing wrong with zonal marking.

you cant argue with how successful its been for us.

You just keep saying its good. Todays soft goal was easily avoided and was becasue of zonal marking. We have a great defensive record because the team is geared towards defending, not just as a result of zonal marking. We havnt been outscoring the top teams in the league.

Mr Alan wrote: »

you cant argue with how successful its been for us.

We havnt won the league.

Zapp Brannigan

p_larkin99 wrote: »

also, when looking at signings, should Pool be looking at these young players (Rebel you mentioned Carlos Eduardo) and be waiting another few seasons for them to develop or buying finished products like Torres.

Would hardly call Torres a finished product, but I can see what you mean. for me I don't feel the first team is strong enough at the moment for us to be solely focussing on youth, like Arsenal did. I also like the idea of the 3 in the midfield, but with that we'd still need to find another top or future top striker. Someone like Benzema would fit right into our 4-3-3 with Babel, Torres and Benzema making up the 3 strikers.

Mr Alan

Stekelly wrote: »

We havnt won the league.

and do you think that is because of zonal marking?

IrishMike

Zapp Brannigan wrote: »

Would hardly call Torres a finished product

Just wondering what your reasons for this are Zapp?
He has an outstanding scoring record for a man in a crap team who was a lone striker.
He has been on fire all season and this was probably his worst match
but that was mainly down to a lack of service and support.
He oozes quality and is probably the best player brought to the premiership this summer.
Even dunphy says he is "awesome" that has to tell u something.

Guy:Incognito

Mr Alan wrote: »

and do you think that is because of zonal marking?

No its because we cant combine an effective attack and defense in the same team. Using man to man marking in a defensive minded team will also result in a great defensive record when you have good players.

None off the other top teams use such obvious zonal marking and they've won the league.

Zapp Brannigan

IrishMike wrote: »

Just wondering what your reasons for this are Zapp?
He has an outstanding scoring record for a man in a crap team who was a lone striker.
He has been on fire all season and this was probably his worst match
but that was mainly down to a lack of service and support.
He oozes quality and is probably the best player brought to the premiership this summer.
Even dunphy says he is "awesome" that has to tell u something.

He's not the finished article because he's only 23. He's yet to reach his peak. I think he's still one of the best players at Liverpool, but he's only going to get better.

Paul Tergat

Zapp Brannigan wrote: »

Would hardly call Torres a finished product, but I can see what you mean. for me I don't feel the first team is strong enough at the moment for us to be solely focussing on youth, like Arsenal did. I also like the idea of the 3 in the midfield, but with that we'd still need to find another top or future top striker. Someone like Benzema would fit right into our 4-3-3 with Babel, Torres and Benzema making up the 3 strikers.

I hope he doesn't get any better!

yeah my point was that there are first team gaps to fill rather than buying players for the future

Tusky

SteKelly. You're not looking at the big picture. We have been using zonal marking for 3.5 years and have one of the best defensive record in the league. I think we have conceded about 3 goals as a result of set pieces in the last 18 months.!

Does it always work ? No. The problem is, when it doesn't work, it usually looks quite bad.

If we used another system, lets say, man marking, we might concede twice as many goals but nobody would say 'thats the man marking at fault there'.

The fact is, zonal marking works and the stats are there as proof.

Mr Alan

They also have better players, there has been a gulf in the quality of our squad compared to our competitors for a number of years, we are getting closer to their quality now, but we aint quite there yet, but our superb defensive record (in a large part due to zonal marking) will be a major reason when we win a league again.

btw, when you said we were lucky we dont concede more?! you cant be lucky for three years.

Guy:Incognito

Tusky wrote: »

SteKelly. You're not looking at the big picture. We have been using zonal marking for 3.5 years and have one of the best defensive record in the league. I think we have conceded about 3 goals as a result of set pieces in the last 18 months.!

Does it always work ? No. The problem is, when it doesn't work, it usually looks quite bad.

If we used another system, lets say, man marking, we might concede twice as many goals but nobody would say 'thats the man marking at fault there'.

The fact is, zonal marking works and the stats are there as proof.

Zonal marking works for a defensive team. Unfortunately being the defensive team that zonal marking requires limits the goal scoring ability of the team. You can not lose games by defending , but you cant win them that way.


As for te standard of players, that sentirely on Rafa's shoulders. Less quantity and more qualiy would do nicely. If I'm honest , I dont give a flying **** about buildign for the future.I'd rather sucess now. If we wait 5 years, Carra will be going or gone, Gerrard will be 32ish. Aurelio and Kewell will be gone or very close to going. These players will have to be replaced. You can only build for th efuture so much and it cant be to the detriment of present sucess.

Mr Alan wrote: »

btw, when you said we were lucky we dont concede more?! you cant be lucky for three years.

TBY i think have had more than our fair share of luck. Combine with very good centre halfs and a lot of last ditch defending. Reina has also done very well with shot stopping ad tends to fair well in 1 on 1's,

Tusky

Stekelly wrote: »

Zonal marking works for a defensive team. Unfortunately being the defensive team that zonal marking requires limits the goal scoring ability of the team. You can not lose games by defending , but you cant win them that way.

Zonal marking works for a defensive team ? What are you talking about. Being defensive or attack minded has nothing to do with zonal marking.

Paul Tergat

I agree with what Ste is saying

I hate zonal marking and reckon it's easier to exploit than man marking.
If a player falls withing a defenders zone its only natural that when the attacker moves the defender will try to stick with them. today people got drawn out of their zone for the goal as they got attracted to the ball

Tusky

If everything that has been said in this thread and the match thread are to be believed.

-Rotation is ****
-Zonal Marking is ****
-Rafa makes **** subs
-Rafa is crap in the transfer market
-Liverpools team & squad arent good enough
-Liverpool were 'outclassed' today
-It was an easy game for utd

I could go on. Todays result was very very disappointing but I think people are being a little dramatic.

~Rebel~

but its not even in use particularly for open play, only really set pieces, how does that have anything to do with a defensive or attacking team?

Mr Alan

people are being way too dramatic

Guy:Incognito

Tusky wrote: »

Zonal marking works for a defensive team ? What are you talking about. Being defensive or attack minded has nothing to do with zonal marking.

Being defensive minded covers the frailties of a zonal markign system.

Paul Tergat

Tusky wrote: »

If everything that has been said in this thread and the match thread are to be believed.

-Rotation is **** it can work but i think havent a settled team is more important

-Zonal Marking is **** yes i agree it is

-Rafa makes **** subs i dont agree with this no, what other options were on offer today for example?

-Rafa is crap in the transfer market i still think he's hit and miss

-Liverpools team & squad arent good enough for what? if its a title push then i don't think either are good enough


-Liverpool were 'outclassed' today rubbish


-It was an easy game for utd it wasn't easy, just expected Pool to create a whole lot more

I could go on. Todays result was very very disappointing but I think people are being a little dramatic.

people are bound to overreact after losing the cup final

Mr Alan

ste: but that still doesnt explain why we concede so few goals from set pieces?

Guy:Incognito

~Rebel~ wrote: »

but its not even in use particularly for open play, only really set pieces, how does that have anything to do with a defensive or attacking team?

It's the mentality. Opposition players are not be picked up properly and marked.

Mr Alan

Stekelly wrote: »

It's the mentality. Opposition players are not be picked up properly and marked.

but we concede **** all goals from set pieces, so it very obviously works?!

Guy:Incognito

Mr Alan wrote: »

ste: but that still doesnt explain why we concede so few goals from set pieces?

Wheres the stats? At what stage does it stop being a set pice and start being open play?

Look at the way Liverpools back line sets up when a player gets down the line to cross a ball against us. So often I see an opposition player on his own around the back post area. The lin emoves as a unit towards the ball and leaves huge gaps in behind. It's happenign with every combination of players oer the last few years and that rules out players mistakes and points at tactics.

Guy:Incognito

Mr Alan wrote: »

but we concede **** all goals from set pieces, so it very obviously works?!

I was talikng about in genaral. Open play included.


As i said though, nothing changes the fact that due to slack zonal markign we lost a vital game to proably our main challengers for the title (if we are mountign a challenge)

~Rebel~

Stekelly wrote:

I was talikng about in genaral. Open play included

But Zonal marking doesn't really come into play from Open play. Its not like a runner gets ignored in open play because its someone elses zone, Carra turns up everywhere in defence, Finnan can ofen be found across the middle of defence etc etc

The way we look, it only looks liek zonal marking gets seriously used for set pieces

Mr Alan

i dont know where i'd get the stats tbh, but it is well known that our defensive record from set pieces is excellent. conceding a goal against the mancs today doesnt all of a sudden change that.

Guy:Incognito

~Rebel~ wrote: »

But Zonal marking doesn't really come into play from Open play. Its not like a runner gets ignored in open play because its someone elses zone, Carra turns up everywhere in defence, Finnan can ofen be found across the middle of defence etc etc

It does if you look at it closely. The line of defenders tends to move sideways as a unit towards the ball, leaving gaps in behind.

I also think we play the offside too often at times(to compensate for a lack of pace?). We've been good at it but the luck will run out (we seem to get a high proportion of marginal and fairly obviously just offside decisions in our favour)

Mr Alan

Stekelly wrote: »

I was talikng about in genaral. Open play included.

well we dont use zonal marking in open play, only at set pieces.

Stekelly wrote: »

As i said though, nothing changes the fact that due to slack zonal markign we lost a vital game to proably our main challengers for the title (if we are mountign a challenge)

i agree, we did lose a game today because of zonal marking (along with our inability to open up a team despite attacking for large portions of it).... but that doesnt mean it doesnt work. If carragher was at fault for a goal today, would you be calling for him to be dropped? No way you would, and do you know why? because he would serve us well for the rest of the season, like . . . . . you guessed it . . . . zonal marking

Guy:Incognito

Mr Alan wrote: »

i dont know where i'd get the stats tbh, but it is well known that our defensive record from set pieces is excellent. conceding a goal against the mancs today doesnt all of a sudden change that.

where did the 3 goals from set pieces thing coe from though?

I think it has to change something. If I was Harry Redknapp I'd be telling my players to keep an eye for the huge amount of space that opens up on the edge of the box.I'll bet it's there next week. Whether Pompy exploit it or not is a seperate issue.

Mr Alan

i didnt say we'd only conceded three from set pieces, think that was someone else. . .

Guy:Incognito

Mr Alan wrote: »

well we dont use zonal marking in open play, only at set pieces.

I answered that 1 post up

Mr Alan wrote: »

i agree, we did lose a game today because of zonal marking (along with our inability to open up a team despite attacking for large portions of it).... but that doesnt mean it doesnt work. If carragher was at fault for a goal today, would you be calling for him to be dropped? No way you would, and do you know why? because he would serve us well for the rest of the season, like . . . . . you guessed it . . . . zonal marking

Ar eyou reading what I've said at all? I dont believe zonal markign has served us all that well. A defensive attitude in general has. If as you said , zonal markign only comes into play on set pieces, then it's not a huge contributor towards the defensive record anyway.

Mr Alan wrote: »

along with our inability to open up a team despite attacking for large portions of it

That caused us not to win, thats a different issue altogether. Conceding made us lose,nothign else. Dont concede and you dont lose, simple as.

Tusky

Mr Alan wrote: »

i didnt say we'd only conceded three from set pieces, think that was someone else. . .

It was me. A commentator said recently that we had only conceded two from set pieces in last 18 months, today makes it 3.

You do know Ste that zonal marking is only used for set pieces ? We mark normally in all other situations. There is no praise of zonal marking when it works but when we do conceed a goal due to it (v.rarely) everyone starts with the 'zonal marking is ****' talk. Its annoying.

What Im trying to say is...it wasn't zonal marking as a system that lost us the game. It was the players not carrying out zonal marking correctly. If we man marked, and they scored from a corner, is that just bad marking or is it the system that is flawed ?

Also, I still dont know where you are getting the 'zonal marking' suits defensive teams. Why... ?

~Rebel~

Stekelly wrote:

It does if you look at it closely. The line of defenders tends to move sideways as a unit towards the ball, leaving gaps in behind.

I definately dont consider that to be zonal marking, thats just basic football, was doing it with my local team at 15 even. if the ball is on the left in midfield, the whole line of back 4 shift across that side, with the LB being near the line and the RB being near the edge of the box and both CB's fairly equidistant between them, as the ball gets crossed to the right, the RB moves over to the line, the LB comes in and the CB's shuffle across, and they all move up and back the back based on who's in control of the offside calls (i assume Carra for pool), its just basic teamplay that all this happens through, if you watch, the whole team does this, everything shifts and rotates around the position of the ball, most teams do.

dobsdave

Any further news on the press release about the meeting tonight?