Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

Guy:Incognito

Tusky wrote: »

It

What Im trying to say is...it wasn't zonal marking as a system that lost us the game. It was the players not carrying out zonal marking correctly. If we man marked, and they scored from a corner, is that just bad marking or is it the system that is flawed ?
... ?

Course it was. The marking was carried out correctly (as per the system). 2 rows of 4 players across the box as usual with 2 on the posts. Thats everyone. doesnt leave anyone to cover the edge of the box.

If it's man marking and someone scores, the player that was supposed to be markign the scorer is at fault.

redspider

Well, a typical Liverpool v Man Utd game of recent seasons. Liverpool doing better in terms of football and goalscoring chances, yet Man Utd coming away with all 3 pts. Many will feel 'we wuz robbed'. In a way, yes, yet in another way, its a pattern that we see far too often in these games and not a surprising result by any shade of the imagination.

Liverpool played with gusto, but they couldnt unlock Man Utd, although they came very close a couple of times. Van der Sar making a few mistakes, and we should have capitalised on one of them. I felt that Torres wasnt playing his best form, perhaps feeling some pressure as this being a top game. Gerrard played well, as he usually does, but perhaps in the second half was trying too hard collecting the ball deep. Nothing came from our free kicks, which were good opportunties, and I thought that Gerrard should have given the last one to Aurelio who is a good option for a silky curler, although Stevie was close with his effort.

Babel did quite well when he came on, and Kewell, well, unfortunately not good enough for this level I'm afraid (okay for Marseille though).

Liverpool can feel no great shame in the defeat.

I'm not allowed to comment on our prospects for winning the league title, but, well, you probably know them anyway.

Redspider

ps: Arsenal beat Chelsea, but there was some background to it. One was that Terry was injured out of it from a bad foul. The 2nd thing was that the goal was a mistake from Cech, very rare. That goal changed the game as Chelsea went for an equaliser and left the back bare, playing into the hands of Arsenal's break. All those chances near the end were a bit deceptive though, as if it was 0-0, they would not have been happening. Chelsea were playing do or die, and Arsenal could score even when 4 players were facing 2. The fact that Arsenal didnt score is more of an indication that their scoring problems in some games is still there.

whatawaster

zonal marking had nothing to do with today's goal. If Benayoun hadn't been such a tool and had pushed out like the rest of the defence, then Tevez would have been offside.

Reina - 7 - not a lot to do, and what he did do he did well
Arbeloa - 6 - got forward well, but decent delivery was non-existant and he kept cutting inside instead of taking Evra on.
Riise - 4 - i feel like i'm constantly giving him a hard time, but he really deserves it on today's showing. Apart from his general inability to kick a ball to a teammate, on a couple of occassions when he ventured forward and had a shot he turned and walked back as United counter-attacked down the left. Not good enough.
Carragher - 5 - absolutely attrocious on the ball, constantly gave it away.
Hyypia - 6 - same as above, though not quite as bad. We need Danny back pronto.
Mascerano - 7 - one of our best players I thought, though his passing was poor at times.
Gerrard - 6 - Not at his best.
Benayoun - 4 - Dunphy is right about one thing - he is a west ham player, nothing more.
Kewell - 6 - Hit and miss.
Kuyt - 4 - Awful. Never took a touch, always looked to flick on the ball first time, and time and time again our attacks broke down because of it.
Torres - 6 - one or two good flashes, but he was largely starved of service and isolated. Should have scored with that header though.

Crouch - 6 - Didn't make a lot of difference
Babel - 7 - looked very good when he came on

Tusky

Stekelly wrote: »

Course it was. The marking was carried out correctly (as per the system). 2 rows of 4 players across the box as usual with 2 on the posts. Thats everyone. doesnt leave anyone to cover the edge of the box.

If it's man marking and someone scores, the player that was supposed to be markign the scorer is at fault.

So by your rational zonal marking never takes into account the man at the edge of the box ? Sorry, but thats nonsense. It was bad defending, it wasnt the system that was at fault.

Guy:Incognito

Tusky wrote: »

So by your rational zonal marking never takes into account the man at the edge of the box ? Sorry, but thats nonsense. It was bad defending, it wasnt the system that was at fault.

You answer it so. When they set up in two rows of 4 and two men on the posts, who covers the men outside the box?

dc69

I dont think our losses can be atributed to zonal marking.we have a very good defensive record so it seems to be working.

Our team is fine in alot of areas,the area today that would have made a huge difference were two good wingers.kuyt and voronin should be squad players and thats it,so should crouch.torres and babel up front as our main two,so that leaves either voronin or kuyt to go,i would sell or release voronin.

as for the wingers,any such as mancini,quaresma or joaquin etc.



our defence is fine as this
1st choice finnan-carragher-agger-risse or

2nd choice arbeloa-hobbs-agger-aurelio..

that is good enough imo (or if not,its not as bad as other areas)

midfield

1st choice joaquin-gerrard-mashcerano-quaresma

2nd choice benayoun-alonso-lucas-pennant

strikers

1st choice Torres-Babel

2nd choice Kuyt-Crouch

this means voronin and sissoko are surplus

Tusky

Stekelly wrote: »

You answer it so. When they set up in two rows of 4 and two men on the posts, who covers the men outside the box?

I have seen us mark the man on the edge of the box countless times. You still havent told me why zonal marking is more defensive than other systems...

Anyway, this argument is going round in circles. Reports going around that the meeting went well and Gillette has come out and said that 'Rafa is their man'. Some good news at last.

Guy:Incognito

Tusky wrote: »

I have seen us mark the man on the edge of the box countless times. You still havent told me why zonal marking is more defensive than other systems...
.

I never said Zonal marking is more defensive, I said we play very defensively and that makes Zonal markign look good for the stats,

Tusky

Stekelly wrote: »

I never said Zonal marking is more defensive, I said we play very defensively and that makes Zonal markign look good for the stats,

Stekelly wrote: »

Unfortunately being the defensive team that zonal marking requires limits the goal scoring ability of the team.

This is basically saying that zonal marking is more defensive....or requires you to be more defensive. How does how you defend corners and free kicks limit the goal scoring ability of the team ?

(Im not having a go at you, Im just a little confused as to what youre implying because to me, it makes absolutely no sense.)

lordgoat

whatawaster wrote: »

zonal marking had nothing to do with today's goal. If Benayoun hadn't been such a tool and had pushed out like the rest of the defence, then Tevez would have been offside.

Never leave the post til the ball is clear. Simple rule.

If he had and tevez steps over the ball, it's still a goal. Someone should have seen it sooner but some credit to giggs for taking another quick set piece, you can't buy experience like that.

zing

Tusky wrote: »

Reports going around that the meeting went well and Gillette has come out and said that 'Rafa is their man'. Some good news at last.

According to the guys at liverpool.no he gave a speech at the former players xmas party this evening that wend along the lines of:

Gillett stood up to talk and started the speech with saying that british press has written alot of stuff about disagreements between the owners and the manager and for that, he apologizes.

"This weren't supposed to happen, but it has happened, and now the focus has to be on finding a common platform to continue our cooperation" He continued with saying that everyone are looking at constructive solutions for the path ahead.

"Rafa is the one we want as a manager further on, and we have faith in him"
"I've been married over 40 years and have first hand knowledge about how to solve an arguement. We concentraded on getting a overview over the situation, and I felt we accomplished that".

He continued to say that he was disappointed over todays match, and he felt the result was unfair.

We got a squad now that's better than it was a year ago, and we wish to continue to further build on this squad. It's a great task we've started on here in Liverpool FC, and we've barely started with this task. We want to accomplish top notch results on every areas, it is what we wish for", he added, clearly hinting towards #19.

"The transfer window opens soon and we might use the option that gives us, or we might not"[/B], he said quite briefly before ending with the following sentence:

"Liverpool is a great club. We are well aware that we have something very valuable on our hands. Liverpool is not our club, it's your club. The supporters club. It's always been that way, and it will always be that way.


As for the comments about us needing more wingers - or proper ones anyway - haven't we been trying (and failing) to find suitable ones for the last few years. Doubt if there's a winger left in Europe that Rafa hasn't considered at this stage - and some from further afield too..

dc69

zing wrote: »

As for the comments about us needing more wingers - or proper ones anyway - haven't we been trying (and failing) to find suitable ones for the last few years. Doubt if there's a winger left in Europe that Rafa hasn't considered at this stage - and some from further afield too..

good find

which is becuase he hasnt had money,hicks and gillete need to put 50 million in an armani wallet,give it to benitez and buy him a plane ticket that goes from england to spain via portugal,and when he returns we may have some:)

raven136

deserved more from the first half performance but sadly got nothing,we were all huff in the 2nd half and united ending up just about deserving victors.Our loss has nothing to do with zonal marking(It works,our record shows that)it was very poor performances by good players that did us.
Kuyt,Riise,Kewell,Masch all had very bad games and in Riise's case is a constant thing.Kuyt should never have been picked ahead of Crouch for this game,his style of play is meat and drink for Rio and Vidic.
All in all im disappointed but its not the end of the world,now we just have to go to United,Arsenal and Chelsea and win:D

gosplan

Liverpool lacked decent wingers and a real passer of the ball yesterday.

Don't think Utd deserved the win at all but there was just no penetration from pool through the middle or in the wings.

Alonso would have made a big big difference IMO.

tibor

Stekelly wrote: »

You just keep saying its good. Todays soft goal was easily avoided and was becasue of zonal marking.

Bollocks.

The goal yesterday was nothing to do with zonal marking.
The goal was because Benayoun got caught ball watching on the line and didn't hear the call to step out with the rest of the team. If he'd been paying attention and taking 3 steps off the line, Tevez would've been offside.
Simple.

The system is not the problem.

tibor

whatawaster wrote: »

zonal marking had nothing to do with today's goal. If Benayoun hadn't been such a tool and had pushed out like the rest of the defence, then Tevez would have been offside.

FINALLY! Glad someone else that saw that!

Can't believe the amount of people here regurgitating the crap from Jamie Redknapp and Andy Gray. Didn't you watch the match yourselves??

Tusky

tibor wrote: »

FINALLY! Glad someone else that saw that!

Can't believe the amount of people here regurgitating the crap from Jamie Redknapp and Andy Gray. Didn't you watch the match yourselves??

Finally ?

Ive been arguing about zonal marking for about 3 pages now!

spockety

Disappointing match, and it has given plenty of fodder for the doom mongers unfortunately.

United came and did a smash and grab.. not for the first time.. and they have to be commended for that. Anybody who slams Zonal marking really needs to do their research. In Liverpool's case in particular, zonal marking is a proven way of keeping the ball out of the net in set pieces. It also provides something for Andy Gray to talk about and earn his wages in the very rare ocassions where it isn't implemented correctly. And that is the key, the implementation, not the system.

Unfortunately when it is not implemented correctly, the system is seen as flawed.
When man marking is not implemented correctly, the implementation is seen as flawed.
Why is this?

Liverpool have improved on last season, it is a catchup game now, but there's 5 matches in the next 3 weeks, and I'm still happier to wait until May to judge things. If liverpool end up 30 points of the pace, then OUCH. But I doubt that's going to be the case.

mike65

I stayed off this thread preceisly cos of the last 3/4 pages!

Its done, Arsenal did us a small favour by beating Chelsea (yes, they are proberbly the "target" this season) and now Liverpool have a Chelsea cup-tie on Wednesday then Pompey (who have exellent away form) on Saturday. Will rafa rest a few and hope the Chavs are also protecting assets or will his focus shift a bit after yesterday and put everything into a cup of some sort this season? (not the tin-cup please!)

Mike.

~Rebel~

Posted this on the match thread, figured may as well throw it up here as well.

The way the Liverpool team is going, im optimistic that we will have a very settled 9 out of 11 within 6 months. Looking at the way its going, the number of automatic starters is growing whenever someone shines head and shoulders over the competition for that spot. E.g Torres has joined in leaving the other spot to be rotated between the other 3. I think Babel will join this soon enough, especially if he can start being as effective from the start as he has been from the bench.

So that would leave a fairly stable team of players who start nearly every game if fit.

Reina, Finnan, Agger, Carra, Arbeloa, Masch, Alonso, Gerrard, Babel, Torres

Those guys soon will probably be playing nearly every game. The odd bit of rotating will be done for Babel and Kewell, which is ok, same with the fullbacks, arbeloa occasionally playing RB and Aurelio/rise playing LB, but overall we would have a fairly stable regular main 9 players which is exactly what United and arsenal have, especially if we got someone in like benzema, Carlos Eduardo or Mancini who are of the babel WF mould, we'd have a very definate 'best team'

raven136

2 losses by either united and arsenal is all it takes.One thing though,we have to beat 2 of them away from home,for mental reasons if nothing else.It must be playing on the players and staff minds that we havent breaten them.Im not giving up hope but its going to be very hard.At least i want us in with a shout with 4 games to go

~Rebel~

Being linked with Muntari, which is an odd one. Being put down to an option if we lose Mascherano, but they're not really the same type of player..

anyway,

Liverpool are reported to be weighing up a move for Portsmouth's Sulley Muntari.

Muntari has impressed at Fratton Park since his summer arrival from Udinese and his performances are thought to have alerted Reds boss Rafa Benitez.

Benitez is drawing up his list of targets in the January transfer window and could make a move for Muntari if he is priced out of a deal for Javier Mascherano.

The Ghana international has quickly adapted to life in England and he is a big fans' favourite at Pompey.

The 23-year-old has admitted he would be interested in a move to a bigger club if the chance became available.

Dream
"I want to end up at one of the biggest clubs - that is every player's dream," Muntari is quoted as saying in the Mirror.

"Of course I will try my best here and help Portsmouth win many things, and maybe qualify for Europe, but eventually I would like to play for a bigger club."

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11669_2986538,00.html

spockety

Parry confirms the stadium rumours

===================

Meanwhile, Rick Parry today admitted Liverpool have had to shelve their futuristic stadium design for Stanley Park because of spiralling costs, not due to the credit crunch in America, as reported elsewhere.

Liverpool are now considering their options but Parry moved to reassure fans that the club remains confident that a new stadium will be delivered in time for the start of the 2011/2012 season, in keeping with the original timescale.

He said: “We are now considering two schemes but the stadium will be a 70,000 seater.

“The new stadium will be a significant improvement on the original plans and a slightly downgraded version of the new ones.

“And it will be a massive improvement on where we were 12 months ago, if not quite as dramatic as the plans unveiled in the summer.

“The single tier Kop remains fundamental to the design and we are not expecting any delays – it should be on schedule for 2011.”

raven136

anyone else find it hilarious that united fans are wetting themselves over anderson?he looks good but this new keane/viera tag is terrible.and i thought it was only us pool fns who went overboard:D

Paul Tergat

raven136 wrote: »

anyone else find it hilarious that united fans are wetting themselves over anderson?he looks good but this new keane/viera tag is terrible.and i thought it was only us pool fns who went overboard:D

to be honest i think we've every reason to be excited, the lad is a classy looking players and he's bound to improve while at united. have you seen much of him play other than yesterdays game?

raven136

spockety wrote: »

Parry confirms the stadium rumours

===================

Meanwhile, Rick Parry today admitted Liverpool have had to shelve their futuristic stadium design for Stanley Park because of spiralling costs, not due to the credit crunch in America, as reported elsewhere.

Liverpool are now considering their options but Parry moved to reassure fans that the club remains confident that a new stadium will be delivered in time for the start of the 2011/2012 season, in keeping with the original timescale.

He said: “We are now considering two schemes but the stadium will be a 70,000 seater.

“The new stadium will be a significant improvement on the original plans and a slightly downgraded version of the new ones.

“And it will be a massive improvement on where we were 12 months ago, if not quite as dramatic as the plans unveiled in the summer.

“The single tier Kop remains fundamental to the design and we are not expecting any delays – it should be on schedule for 2011.”

FFS....

zing

raven136 wrote: »

he looks good but this new keane/viera tag is terrible.

You mean the new Momo ?

raven136

p_larkin99 wrote: »

to be honest i think we've every reason to be excited, the lad is a classy looking players and he's bound to improve while at united. have you seen much of him play other than yesterdays game?

i have indeed,i live with a die hard united fan and he is good but not that good.Also credit must go to Hargreaves who was the better of the two

spockety

You're asking for trouble slagging off United players only a day after they beat us.....

Anderson looked very composed yesterday I have to say.

~Rebel~

raven136 wrote:

anyone else find it hilarious that united fans are wetting themselves over anderson?he looks good but this new keane/viera tag is terrible.and i thought it was only us pool fns who went overboard:D

To be fair to them, its what they've been looking for for an age, and have had many many failures in the attempt to find. They've spent the past 5 or so years looking for the new "scholes and keane", and now it looks like they finally have something comparable in terms of ability in Hargreaves and Anderson, not the same, but the best they've had for a good while. CM has been their weak spot for a few years.

Paul Tergat

raven136 wrote: »

i have indeed,i live with a die hard united fan and he is good but not that good.Also credit must go to Hargreaves who was the better of the two

I think he's showing all the signs of being a potentially amazing player.

he's great on the ball,good vison/can spot a pass and make it.

he has speed, a great engine (we've yet to see him shooting but that will come im sure)

he can run with the ball, he can tackle and has a great footballing brain. whats been most surprising is that he can defend and seems to relish that.

just want a bit more runs from him like yesterday which he is well capable of

PHB

Stekelly wrote: »

No its because we cant combine an effective attack and defense in the same team.

I think this is at the root of Liverpools problem. They play a very defensive game normally against the big teams. 2 deep lying midfielders, and rely on a bit of magic up front. That's how they won the CL, it can work in a cup, but it'll never work in a league. If they play an attacking game, their defense is gona be opened up. Riise and Hyypia are not good enough defensively. Yesterday they tried to play a balanced game, and they did it well. The midfield provided decent protection and only concedded due to a set piece. However, because they did this, they had very little going forward. Gerrard couldn't do what he normally does because he had much more responsibility defensively. As such, it was up to the front 4, only one of which is good enough to win a league as part of a first 11, the other 3 being squad players.

I thought this was the problem that Liverpool had at the start of the season and I stand by it. Liverpool have too many average players. Crouch/Kuyt/Voronin imo are all players who can play in a championship winning squad. Of this, there is no doubt. I'd be happy to have anyone of them at United as 3rd or 4th choice. They are however not 1st or 2nd choice quality.
The same is true of the wingers.
Kewell/Yossi/Pennant are all gooe nough to be at a championship winning squad. None of them are good enough to be first choice.
If you were to make the squad perfect (and no squad is)
I think Liverpool need the following.
CB cover of real quality
LB cover of real quality/or even first choice (I think Arbeloa could be Liverpools O'Shea)
Two new wingers
One new striker
These all need to be top class.

I think some of the targets people said at good, Huntelaar, Bezmxxxx (the Lyon guy ), Mancini.

The prices you guys said are nuts though. Torres was actually a complete steal at 20 million. I'd expect to have to pay similar prices for Mancini and Benzmxxx (remmber Lyon are absolute ****ers to deal with in the transfer market)

mike65

Agger and Alonso can't get back fast enough.

Mike.

raven136

liverpool have scored 27 goals in the league and have a goal difference of 17,this is the 3rd best in the league and not bad for a team who cant play attacking football.
United played with 2 defensive midfielders also,they just took thier chances(or chance)while had torres headed on target it would have been so different.

A few eay things are rolled out to attack Pool and Rafa,he doesnt play Torres,He Rotates too much,he plays defensive mids and zonal defence doesnt work.I dont know if its laziness or stupidity but zonal defence has brought two club record clean sheets,Torres has scored 12 in 16 in his first season and started all but two games.Rotation has brough 3 cup finals in 3 years and defensive football has brought a champions league goalscoring record and 4 goals off the "attacking teams" of the league.

I guess that there must be other reasons why pool are a defensive team who cant play attacking football.Also if our player are as bad as everyone says its an even greater achievement to be in this position

Kanney

Very dissapointed with yesterdays result.But dont want to talk about it after so much abuse in town wearing my Pool jacket from Man U supporters.
But my input is about the Chelski match on Wednesday, I'm fairly confident that Babel will start up front, thought he did well when he came on, really looking like hes getting more comfortable in England. Hopefully because he has so much potential.
Unfortunately I see Voronin probably playing alongside, where it should be Crouch, I think Torres will be left on the bench, rested... Maybe Alonso will be back in time for that will he?

machiavellianme

Yesterday is over so I guess its time to look onward to Wednesday and the weekend. Can we beat Chelsea and Pompey convincingly and turn our fortunes around?
I hope we get a decent team for Chelsea, with Hobbs and Anderson or Lindfield getting a chance to impress. Hopefully we can win both and turn our current streak of losses and unluckiness around.

Melion

raven136 wrote: »

anyone else find it hilarious that united fans are wetting themselves over anderson?he looks good but this new keane/viera tag is terrible.and i thought it was only us pool fns who went overboard:D

No because he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world in a few years. He is amazing, i was disgusted when they signed him this summer.

Melion

And regarding Wednesday, i think Rafa will name a first strength team. Dont think any reserves will get a run(maybe Hobbs for half an hour at the end). We cant afford another loss, im sure Rafa knows that.

Zapp Brannigan

I'd rather see a weak team go out. Don't give a fuck about the Carling Cup, and would rather have the team rested and come out all guns blazing against Pompy.

Tusky

In the league, Liverpool have scored 3 less goals than utd & conceded 2 more. In all comps, they have scored more goals. We narrowly lost to utd in a tightly contested game...we have a great team & squad.

[edit] also we have a game in hand

Just thought I should put that in there to counteract some of the other silly posts.

mike65

Derby 6-0 makes things look better than they might actually be.

Mike.

kida

Tusky wrote: »

In the league, Liverpool have scored 3 less goals than utd & conceded 2 more. In all comps, they have scored more goals. We narrowly lost to utd in a tightly contested game...we have a great team & squad.

Just thought I should put that in there to counteract some of the other silly posts.

points is all that matter

Guy:Incognito

tibor wrote: »

FINALLY! Glad someone else that saw that!

Can't believe the amount of people here regurgitating the crap from Jamie Redknapp and Andy Gray. Didn't you watch the match yourselves??

? I posted that in my first post about zonal marking (although I thought it was Kewell on the post). Just goes to show that people dont actually read much of the thread.

If Rooney hadnt skewed his shot and rifled it inot the top corner instead it wouldnt have made a difference anyway.

As has been said, this is going round in circles. But one last time for good luck., zonal markign for corners means 2 rows of 4 players in the box and 2 players on the posts, result? no players coverign the egde of the box where Rooney and 2 other Utd players inside him were waiting.

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Being linked with Muntari, which is an odd one. Being put down to an option if we lose Mascherano, but they're not really the same type of player..

anyway,

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11669_2986538,00.html

Keeping Mascherano is obviously the best choice. Plus if he ends up at one of the other top 3 English clubs it would be a bit of a double blow.

prendy

points is all that matter

Derby 6-0 makes things look better than they might actually be.
Mike.

exactly...beating derby 6-0 is not much better than 1-0
the fact is utd are 9 poins ahead of us and therefore 9 points better than us.
games in hand i know but id rather the points!
utd grinded out a good result...

Tusky

kida wrote: »

points is all that matter

But the discussion wasn't about points. It was about Liverpools supposed inability to combine attack and defense. Therefore, in this instance, goals scored and conceded do matter.

kida

Tusky wrote: »

But the discussion wasn't about points. It was about Liverpools supposed inability to combine attack and defense. Therefore, in this instance, goals scored and conceded do matter.

if so average goals per game vs average conceded per game is more relevant

Tusky

kida wrote: »

if so average goals per game vs average conceded per game is more relevant

These are figures for the league.

Liverpool
average goals scored - Home: 2 Away: 1.4
average goals conceded - Home: 0.6 Away: 0.6

Man Utd
average goals scored - Home : 2.2 Away 1.2
average goals conceded - Home: 0.2 Away 0.8

There is not as much between the teams as a lot of posts that followed the game on Sunday would have you believe. Liverpool don't need to sell half of their team...

An Citeog

Tusky wrote: »

These are figures for the league.

Liverpool
average goals scored - Home: 2 Away: 1.4
average goals conceded - Home: 0.6 Away: 0.6

Man Utd
average goals scored - Home : 2.2 Away 1.2
average goals conceded - Home: 0.2 Away 0.8

There is not as much between the teams as a lot of posts that followed the game on Sunday would have you believe. Liverpool don't need to sell half of their team...

Without wanting to get into a flame war, United had a poor start to the season and only managed to score 7 goals in 8 games. Our first big win was the 4-0 over Wigan in October. Despite all that, we've still scored more than Liverpool, who had their best start to a season in years. Just to put a bit of perspective on those stats!

kida

Tusky wrote: »

These are figures for the league.

Liverpool
average goals scored - Home: 2 Away: 1.4
average goals conceded - Home: 0.6 Away: 0.6

Man Utd
average goals scored - Home : 2.2 Away 1.2
average goals conceded - Home: 0.2 Away 0.8

There is not as much between the teams as a lot of posts that followed the game on Sunday would have you believe. Liverpool don't need to sell half of their team...

3 points for a home win or an away win so why split it? The ratio of goals scored vs conceded is most important and is what I was getting at.

Pool
Scored 1.6875
Conceded 0.625
Ratio of scored vs conceded = 2.7


Utd
Scored 1.941176471
Conceded 0.470588235
Ratio of scored vs conceded = 4.125


Uts are over 50% better off and as put above this is after their worst start

el rabitos

PLD GD PTS
1 Arsenal 17 20 40
2 Man Utd 17 22 39
3 Chelsea 17 14 34
4 Man City 17 5 33
5 Liverpool 16 17 30

you can talk about averages and percentages all day long lads, the thread is starting to look like a bleedin tompkins article

"no no, its all good, we can still win the league, we win 98.7% of our games against clubs that wear white, and we're playing spurs and fulham in our next 2 games at home and they lose 87.9" of their games against teams that wear red"

ffs. we're clearly the 4th best team in the league. clearly. when one of the other 3 have a bad season we finish 3rd.

i'm not slating rafa or being a pessimistic knee-jerker, its just going to take time and money. the team is constantly evolving under benitez which is good, but the other 3 teams are evolving and improving every year too. i'm interested to see how we get on in january and the summer as far as improving the squad.

kewell*
yossi
riise*
arbeloa*
hyypia (purely down to age)
kuyt*
voronin
crouch
pennant*
aurelio
sissoko

not one of those above players should be regulars in our first team. the ones with * are in arguably our best team, that is simply not good enough, and i'd be fairly certain rafa is well aware of this.

some of them are fine squad players, riise, crouch, aurelio, arbeloa, hyypia, and there in lies the problem of left back, 3 of our regular left backs are in that list. not good enough.

rafa is obviously improving the team as fast as possible, but the cash doesnt seem to be there to improve it at the rate needed to win the league, its too big an ask for these players, cups are always winnable by a good squad and thats what we have, but the league just asks too many questions of too many limited players.

add onto that rafa's actual style of play and i just dont see it as a recipe to winning the premiership. our whole style of play is based on the opposition making mistakes and us punishing them, and it works pretty well in the champions league against teams that try to play football.

but against teams like reading and the other average joes that surrender possesion so easily we have so much of the ball that they cant make mistakes, and when we have the ball we have no idea what to do with it and run out of ideas very fast.

its a bit like banging heads off the wall right now and i'm sure rafa feel frustrated, he's a sore loser himself so i guess all we can do is hope theres funds in place and rafa gets in early on deals faster than last summer.