Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

One Cold Hand

Mr Alan wrote: »

Rafa should under no circumstances get the sack. And that is not just my opinion of Rafa from my blinkered "love Rafa" eyes. When he came to Liverpool he talked about a 5 year plan. In the first year he won the CL. He should be given his five years.

ps. O neill has buckets of money to spend at Villa, and hasnt. Much to many Villa fans disgust.

Yeah but he hasn't wasted money on over-priced rubbish! Any expensive players he's bought have made an impact: young, reo-coker. The cheaper ones were bought as squad players: harewood, knight. Villa can't expect to attract Ronaldino!! And I think Rafa has shown that spending money the sake of it doesn't necessarily work.

Mr Alan

Archimedes wrote: »

In all honesty Al, if youre suggesting that a manager should spend money on players just to keep the fans happy, youre fighting a losing battle. No point signing players who you dont feel are right for the club just to keep the pressure off you, and maybe thats what Benitez has been doing so far.

Thats not wat i'm saying at all. Villas squad is only an injury of two from falling apart. Its a dangerously thin squad, most Villa fans will admit this. He should have signed more players in the summer and didnt, they've been blessed to get this far with the thin squad they have. They can now strenghten.

Rafa had a job when he took over at Liverpool. He needed to make Liverpool competitive again. Moores could not afford to spend the money re-juvinating the squad and was actively seeking buyers. In the meantime Rafa had the task of beginning to overhaul the squad. He has done that and in the mean time, made us one of the best teams in Europe. including winning the CL. Proper finance arrived in the summer and he bought very well.

I still think that the gap in the league this year will not be as big as it has been in the past few years. But his job should not hinge on succes this season as a must.

Next thing you know we'll become Newcastle

Mr Alan

One Cold Hand wrote: »

Yeah but he hasn't wasted money on over-priced rubbish! Any expensive players he's bought have made an impact: young, reo-coker. The cheaper ones were bought as squad players: harewood, knight. Villa can't expect to attract Ronaldino!! And I think Rafa has shown that spending money the sake of it doesn't necessarily work.

i agree it doesnt work but it was hardly just for the sake of it, remember we have won the CL and FA cup and been to another CL final.

I'm not giving Villa stick. Just saying i dont think MON would be an improvement on Rafa at all.

~Rebel~

Archimedes wrote: »

In all honesty Al, if youre suggesting that a manager should spend money on players just to keep the fans happy, youre fighting a losing battle. No point signing players who you dont feel are right for the club just to keep the pressure off you, and maybe thats what Benitez has been doing so far.

The signings issue is one which i think is very unfair to put at Rafa, whatever about the others.

Before the americans came in, yes he spread the money around on quantity over quality, but all the signs point that he didn't have a choice in this. ANy time he was interested in high quality but expensive players he was shot down by the board. Every time. Villa, Aguero, Alves etc etc. And so he had to go for the Bellamy's and the Gonzalez's of the world.

I think its no coincidence that when the americans brought the financial backing for last summer that he was able to go and spent 20mill on Torres and 11 on Babel. This wasn't so much because they were dedicating a tonne of money to us, but more that the risk of getting big players wouldn't cripple the club if they flopped as it would before they added security. They still obviously weren't willing to break the bank, only giving the same money as most other clubs spent (and also in that they wouldn't allow Rafa to buy Malouda), but they allowed him to spend it on those he actually really wanted, and he went for the higher end.

event

im not saying some of you, cos i wasnt here back then but i know from my pool fan friends (real life they said the exact same about houllier

5 year plan, give him time, rebuilding a squad, etc

if in 5 years, rafa hasnt won the league, what then?
give another manager 5 years to win a league?

im not suggesting sacking managers after one year, but i think serious questions need to be asked this year, and they will be in the boardroom.

i dont know of any other managers that could replace him. Jose could, and he could win them a league in two years, but pool fans would never get over themselves to allow it.
Rijkard wouldnt do it, ten cate was his brains. Not many others out there so that alone is the reason alone i reckon he wont be sacked in the summer (unless he secures a trophy, that is)

next year though, he needs to mount a challenge, and not a one like he has before today, but keeping within a point or two of the leaders, and perhaps leading for a while.

I dont mind benitez, though ill admit im not a fan of the man personally, but i can see he is a top notch tactician.

I think this is a neutral enough view, im a leeds fan, so dont really care for many teams in the prem at the minute

Guy:Incognito

I'm very surprised nobody (bar me but that seems to have been glossed over) has mentioned David Bentley. He's been in great form and has the advantage over European wingers of not needing time to bed in to the league. I think signing both him and Anelka in this transfer window could do wonders for the 1st team.

Mr Alan

I think David Bentley would be an excellent buy.

~Rebel~

Stekelly wrote: »

I'm very surprised nobody (bar me but that seems to have been glossed over) has mentioned David Bentley. He's been in great form and has the advantage over European wingers of not needing time to bed in to the league. I think signing both him and Anelka in this transfer window could do wonders for the 1st team.

id be delighted with both of those to be honest.

d22ontour

Mr Alan wrote: »

Rafa should under no circumstances get the sack.

That's true , he should get the 5 years to attempt to win the title.My badly worded post the other night ' ' was proved right in what i was trying to say as Pool fans have posted here too.The last 5 games or so have seen Pool nick late wins/draws against a few poor teams and they looked to be running out of steam.Still only a possible 9 points but when it hits 10+ 'and it will me thinks' then i feel it will be too much with the other big 3 away.

gary the great

This is so frustrating.

Rafa is going to do it though, its not going to be done overnight, Rafa needs more time. He inherited a ****e team. I watched the 2005 CL final the other day, if we can win the CL team with Traore, Smicer, baros, biscan etc we can win the league, even if it takes a few more years.

So ye everyone gets there way and Rafa goes, who replaces him? With the obvious exception of Mourinho, nobody is as good. Id bve seriously pissed if Klinsman got it.

I dont think rafa is totally to blame, thats squad is definetly good enough to win the league. position for position I think we're better than United and Arsenal. Its just inconsistency, but how do we solve that. i just dont think theres belief among the players.

DSB

gary the great wrote: »

position for position I think we're better than United

Oh lord. Delusions of grandeur to the extreme here.

jank

I dont think rafa is totally to blame, thats squad is definetly good enough to win the league. position for position I think we're better than United and Arsenal

LOL:)

DSB

I actually think player for player Liverpool might be a little better than Arsenal. But Wenger has got an amazing system working whereby every player he has is perfectly suited to what he wants them to do. Even the youth players can come in and beat Premiership sides like Blackburn. The man is a genius. I wouldn't think there'd be much in it between Liverpool and Arsenal playerwise. But as a team they're oceans apart.

PHB

Liverpool should get fourth, and if they don't, they have only themselves to blame. I can't see it happening.
Rafa is gona focus on the CL, but another good run (without a win) is just a failure of a season. IMO even a win has to be considered at least a serious failure of a season, especially since the league was clearly the priority.

A couple of things,
I wish people would stop saying, 'oh my god, stop being silly. United / Chelsea / Arsenal have results like this all the time, it's not the end of the world'. That is just silly. It's like saying, 'don't worry, it's just one result'. Yes it's one result, but all of them taking together are lots of results, and this happens to Liverpool a lot!

Nothing wrong with our tactics tonight or the team that started.

Why then did you draw?

Rafa is not the problem.

Whose fault is this?

The squad, as much as i'd hoped otherwise, is not good enough.

Look you can say what you want about not having the money, but the simple fact of the matter is that Rafa has had a lot of money to spend, and on the whole, Liverpool haven't improved a huge amount since he took over.
The managers job is to work with what he has. Mourinho Fergie and Wenger all did this, all have made their squads real challengers. Wenger did it with nothing, Fergie did it with the same net spend as Liverpool, Mourinho did it with a lot more. Rafa can't do it

Imagine if he'd been allowed to buy Villa, Aguero and Alves. When he was first interested in each, they would have cost a combined total of 31million. Villa went for 8mill, Aguero for 15 and the price for Alves when Rafa joined us was 5 to 8mill. None of them were sanctioned.

Maybe if he hadn't signed so many duds the board would be willing to back him a little more?

Before the americans came in, yes he spread the money around on quantity over quality, but all the signs point that he didn't have a choice in this. ANy time he was interested in high quality but expensive players he was shot down by the board. Every time. Villa, Aguero, Alves etc etc. And so he had to go for the Bellamy's and the Gonzalez's of the world.

This is absolute bull**** and I've pointed it out umpteen times. Rafa choose this policy. Instead of working with the players he had, he sold them all. Pretty much none are left of the pre-Rafa era.

He made the simple choice, between spending 15 million on real young talent and keeping a player he had, or buying two average players for 7.5 million each. He did this constantly.
When he took the right approach, like buying and paying for quality or buying youth talent, he's done pretty well.
When he's tried to wing it, with good players bought for average prices, he's ****ed up royally.
He's spend millions on utter ****e, and that's why Liverpool are still barely better off than they were 3 years ago.
I've shown it before, but
Same money
Same time
Similar numbers kept (albeit with Liverpool keeping slightly less than United)
He fails utterly compared to Wenger, he fails compared to Fergie.


Oh as for blaming it on Parry, that's hilarious when you consider the utter ineptitude of Gill and Kenyon when it comes to transfers.

Oh yeh, and the whole Rafa has been signing top academy youngsters. I've got some news for you. Chelsea/Arsenal/United have been doing that for the last 3-20 years, and two of those clubs have an incredible track record at spotting young talent. You place an awful lot of faith in something that Rafa has never shown himself to be good at, and something that the rivals are doing at the least the same level.

See thats the problem right there? What the **** does the european cup have to do with this? You think rafa is > then wenger? I bet you do!!

We are not talking about arsenal now are we. We are talking about 18 years becoming 19. I give you a neutral view on whats wrong and you get all smart about it. What can i expect sure.

Hit the nail on the head. Ask any sane person who they would want at the head of their team next year, Rafa or Wenger? About 99.9999999% of people would pick Wenger in a spilt second. I'd say a good half at least of Liverpool fans would too.

The following problems I have with Rafa as a manager:

A. Transfer Market
- Buys quantity over quality
He will buy two average players rather than one good player.
- Has poor judgement
Countless poor buys, but the highlights I think are Morientes, Zenden, Crouch

B. Player Control
- Isn't willing to work with players
He didn't want to work with any Houllier players, despite the fact that most of the winning CL team were his. Also isn't willing to give young players who don't work out a chance, i.e. Gonzalez
- Doesn't have great discipline
Still can't reign in Gerrard after all this time.

C. Tactics (Both Match and League)
- Way too negative. Would rather a draw over risking losing. Will win ya cups but not leagues
- Approachs each match individually. Doesn't try and set Liverpool a style, tries to make Liverpool beat every other team, rather than let them try to beat Liverpool. As such, he's bound to get it wrong.
- Rotation: It's not that he rotates, that's fine. It's that he rotates poorly! Picks the wrong time and the wrong players.

kryogen

DSB wrote: »

Oh lord. Delusions of grandeur to the extreme here.

have to agree here, some people really need to take the rose colour glasses off once in a while, man for man united have a better starting XI then liverpool, as do arsenal, as do chelsea, liverpool fans will disagree because they are liverpool fans!! who wants to admit their team is inferior in quality? and could you make up your minds please, when it suits ye the players you have arent good enough and he needs money to buy the better players that can compete and then ye claim that the players ye have are as good as uniteds and arsenals? which is it

~Rebel~

kryogen wrote: »

and could you make up your minds please, when it suits ye the players you have arent good enough and he needs money to buy the better players that can compete and then ye claim that the players ye have are as good as uniteds and arsenals? which is it

well you see the problem here is that we are all different. Some firmly believe in the former, some with the latter, and some are in between. Getting us to all agree in our opinions and on how we feel about the clubs situation for you isn't going to happen.

kryogen

PHB wrote: »

Liverpool should get fourth, and if they don't, they have only themselves to blame. I can't see it happening.
Rafa is gona focus on the CL, but another good run (without a win) is just a failure of a season. IMO even a win has to be considered at least a serious failure of a season, especially since the league was clearly the priority.

A couple of things,
I wish people would stop saying, 'oh my god, stop being silly. United / Chelsea / Arsenal have results like this all the time, it's not the end of the world'. That is just silly. It's like saying, 'don't worry, it's just one result'. Yes it's one result, but all of them taking together are lots of results, and this happens to Liverpool a lot!



Why then did you lose?




Whose fault is this?



Look you can say what you want about not having the money, but the simple fact of the matter is that Rafa has had a lot of money to spend, and on the whole, Liverpool haven't improved a huge amount since he took over.
The managers job is to work with what he has. Mourinho Fergie and Wenger all did this, all have made their squads real challengers. Wenger did it with nothing, Fergie did it with the same net spend as Liverpool, Mourinho did it with a lot more. Rafa can't do it



Maybe if he hadn't signed so many duds the board would be willing to back him a little more?



This is absolute bull**** and I've pointed it out umpteen times. Rafa choose this policy. Instead of working with the players he had, he sold them all. Pretty much none are left of the pre-Rafa era.

He made the simple choice, between spending 15 million on real young talent and keeping a player he had, or buying two average players for 7.5 million each. He did this constantly.
When he took the right approach, like buying and paying for quality or buying youth talent, he's done pretty well.
When he's tried to wing it, with good players bought for average prices, he's ****ed up royally.
He's spend millions on utter ****e, and that's why Liverpool are still barely better off than they were 3 years ago.
I've shown it before, but
Same money
Same time
Similar numbers kept (albeit with Liverpool keeping slightly less than United)
He fails utterly compared to Wenger, he fails compared to Fergie.


Oh as for blaming it on Parry, that's hilarious when you consider the utter ineptitude of Gill and Kenyon when it comes to transfers.

Oh yeh, and the whole Rafa has been signing top academy youngsters. I've got some news for you. Chelsea/Arsenal/United have been doing that for the last 3-20 years, and two of those clubs have an incredible track record at spotting young talent. You place an awful lot of faith in something that Rafa has never shown himself to be good at, and something that the rivals are doing at the least the same level.



Hit the nail on the head. Ask any sane person who they would want at the head of their team next year, Rafa or Wenger? About 99.9999999% of people would pick Wenger in a spilt second. I'd say a good half at least of Liverpool fans would too.

The following problems I have with Rafa as a manager:

A. Transfer Market
- Buys quantity over quality
He will buy two average players rather than one good player.
- Has poor judgement
Countless poor buys, but the highlights I think are Morientes, Zenden, Crouch

B. Player Control
- Isn't willing to work with players
He didn't want to work with any Houllier players, despite the fact that most of the winning CL team were his. Also isn't willing to give young players who don't work out a chance, i.e. Gonzalez
- Doesn't have great discipline
Still can't reign in Gerrard after all this time.

C. Tactics (Both Match and League)
- Way too negative. Would rather a draw over risking losing. Will win ya cups but not leagues
- Approachs each match individually. Doesn't try and set Liverpool a style, tries to make Liverpool beat every other team, rather than let them try to beat Liverpool. As such, he's bound to get it wrong.
- Rotation: It's not that he rotates, that's fine. It's that he rotates poorly! Picks the wrong time and the wrong players.

very good post

DSB

Except for Liverpool didn't lose tonight. They drew.

PHB

Fair enough

Attractive Nun

Position for position Liverpool are not better than United or Arsenal.

If we're talking about the future of Liverpool, I would be quite surprised if they won the league in the next 3/4 years. I think if recent Premiership history has shown anything, it is that you need top quality players in virtually every position if you want to win the league, coupled with decent replacements for injuries/resting/substitutions etc. Right now, United and Arsenal (keeper iffy) have that. Chelsea also have that (RB iffy). Liverpool IMO have that at GK, CBx2, FBx2, CMx3 and FWx1. Given 2 top quality wingers and another top quality striker, I think they would be title challengers.

The problem for Liverpool is money. As everyone seems to agree, they need to spend big to get proper, top quality wingers and a proper, top quality striker. The likes of Joachim, Quaresma, Ribery, Robben, Anelka, Berbatov. Babel might well develop into one of these players, it remains to be seen. David Bentley is not good enough IMO. There is money to be made in shipping out some of the deadwood, but still there will need to be big net spending if Liverpool have any title aspirations.

What's more, an even bigger problem for Liverpool is the average age of their rivals' squads. At United, right back is the only position that needs immediate improvement (though another striker would help). Aside from that, Foster, Vidic, Evra, Anderson, Hargreaves, Nani, Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney are all young and settled for the next few years at least. Ferdinand has a good few years left in him too. At Arsenal, the entire first team bar Gallas (not sure about Toure) are in their early 20s! Chelsea aren't worth discussing because they can buy whoever.

So if Liverpool want to win a title in the next few years, Rafa or no Rafa, they need to spend big this summer. It can't be a case of 'promising youth' any more than it can be 'good squad players' because Carragher is no spring chicken, neither is Finnan and within a couple of seasons you might well have to start thinking about replacing them and then your troubles start over again. I don't think big money will be spent over the coming years, so I don't think Liverpool will win the title over the coming years.

As for whether Rafa is the right man for the job, I'd say it's too early to tell. Liverpool don't have the squad to win the Premiership, full stop. Benitez has proved himself a great manager so I think he should be given the time to prove it again, but I wouldn't think it impossible to conclude that he just doesn't 'get' the Premiership. Changing manager now though isn't going to solve anything, the only thing that will if those Americans of yours cough up.

~Rebel~

PHB wrote: »

Maybe if he hadn't signed so many duds the board would be willing to back him a little more?

Villa and Alves (2 of the 3 in the post you quoted) he wanted in the summer he arrived, no duds on board at that point.

This is absolute bull**** and I've pointed it out umpteen times. Rafa choose this policy. Instead of working with the players he had, he sold them all. Pretty much none are left of the pre-Rafa era.

We each have our opinions on this, but the manner in which the board has allowed/disallowed the various transfers he's tried for leads me to believe he wanted better players in then he got at times. LIke it or not, just the fact that he very publicly wanted these top players but didnt get transfers ratified by the board goes against your theory that he only ever wanted cheapo's.

I accept that he could maybe have kept more of Houllier's, but even at that, Who?! Cisse and Baros are 2 i can think of, but baros was sold at a large profit and cisse needed to be replaced regardless of being sold since he broke his leg the second time. Murphy wanted to leave. Diouf there no option but to sell really, and nobody, fans, players, mnanagement, nobody wanted him at anfield. Henchoz? If anything Rafa picked the right time to sell as he's been rubbish since. Biscan I wouldn't have minded keeping to be honest as a distant backup, he proved himself to be a bit of a cult hero with a decent manager. Then you have Diao and Le Tallec who got their chances in the team in Rafa's first season, but unfortunately both proved to not be up to it. Then theres Cheyrou who really was just crap. Traore got 2 years before being sold so thats not bad for an absolutely astonishingly crap player. Smicer stayed for a year then moved on. He was pretty rubbish as well in fairness. His contract ran out. Do you think Liverpool FC should have given Vladimir Smicer a new contract? Hamann left after the team had been rebuilt and when he was getting old and needed to move for more regular football. Dudek as well only just left seeking more football (or as it turned out, sunshine as money as theres no way he's getting his game head of Iker), in fairness, he wasn't good enough for number 1. Kirkland was injured too much. He started as first choice for Rafa until he yet again broke himself. Finnan Riise Gerrard Kewell and Hypia are still there. Pongolle only just left, which is another one i'll give you as id have liked him to have stayed. So now we have Biscan and Pongolle (and smicer if you really push it) as potential stayers. Anyone else? Or would you argue that Henchoz or any of the others really should have stayed? I think in reality your point turns out to be a bit of a myth.

Oh as for blaming it on Parry, that's hilarious when you consider the utter ineptitude of Gill and Kenyon when it comes to transfers.

I dont see the relavence here. That they all suck?

Oh yeh, and the whole Rafa has been signing top academy youngsters. I've got some news for you. Chelsea/Arsenal/United have been doing that for the last 3-20 years, and two of those clubs have an incredible track record at spotting young talent. You place an awful lot of faith in something that Rafa has never shown himself to be good at, and something that the rivals are doing at the least the same level.

On the youth thing its just great that we've finally started investing in young talent. Houllier's pretty much sole contributions to this were Le Tallec and Pongolle.

The following problems I have with Rafa as a manager:

A. Transfer Market
- Buys quantity over quality
He will buy two average players rather than one good player.
- Has poor judgement
Countless poor buys, but the highlights I think are Morientes, Zenden, Crouch

Here, i still have questions as stated above.
Crouch a highlight as a poor buy? His Liverpool performances have probably doubled his already ridiculously inflated price of 7mill and gotten him into the England team.
Morientes, in all fairness PHB did anyone see how that one would pan out?!
Zenden was a free so i dont see how he's a highlight of a bad buy.

B. Player Control
- Isn't willing to work with players
He didn't want to work with any Houllier players, despite the fact that most of the winning CL team were his. Also isn't willing to give young players who don't work out a chance, i.e. Gonzalez
- Doesn't have great discipline
Still can't reign in Gerrard after all this time.

Again see my point on Houllier's players. Who are you talking about?
Gonzalez i wouldn't have minded if he had been kept, however this with Rafa is generally one of his strong points, moving on guys who dont work, normally are around the same money, which is great considering you get a year or so's use out of them.
Reign in Gerrard? Elaborate. He's gotten Gerrards best performances.

C. Tactics (Both Match and League)
- Way too negative. Would rather a draw over risking losing. Will win ya cups but not leagues
- Approachs each match individually. Doesn't try and set Liverpool a style, tries to make Liverpool beat every other team, rather than let them try to beat Liverpool. As such, he's bound to get it wrong.
- Rotation: It's not that he rotates, that's fine. It's that he rotates poorly! Picks the wrong time and the wrong players.

I agree with a lot of this. Is often too negative. I hope with better attacking players that he'll have more faith in their abality and get the team to go for it more. Your second point too, I would prefer Liverpool to impose their styke upon the opposition, though he has started doing this more this year. Rotation i think won't be as much an issue from next year. We've already seen more players added into his 'core'. At the moment the back 4 when fit is pretty settled, same with center mid, and 1 strikers birth. So that leaves the wingers and another forward, which are our weak spots (bar cover at CB). I think Babel will make one of the wing spots his in time.

dc69

people are saying sell every player we have,we need a squad,some of them may be worse than others,utd and arsenal and chelsea all have squad players that they would not be happy to see play every day,just there for cover.

our back 4 of

-arbeloa---carragher---agger---aurelio

is ok imo we just need cb cover,risse should stay in case.

midfield we have 1 surplus midfelder,sell sissoko we need 2 new wingers eg

--silva---mashcerano--gerrard---quaresma
(just an example ,we could debate for ages!)

strikers

---torres---babel

that team is good enough to win the premiership as our first team,obviously we have surplus players but the rest are ok squad payers.we dont need a new striker,babel is a striker!and is good enough imo and maybe rafa should blood him in as striker properly now that the title is gone.

wingers need to be able to beat their men,none of ours can do this consistently.we need 2 new wingers,benayoun is a good squad player as an attacking midfield but is not a winger.kewell is not the same as he was,pennant is an ok squad player.

DSB

Delusions of grandeur definitely seem to be a common feature of Liverpool fans. It's always just that 1 or 2 more things that are keeping Liverpool from winning titles apparently. Rubbish. Outside centre midfield and Torres there isnt a star amongst them. Carragher fouls too much and the amount of handballs I've seen him get away with is ridiculous. Decent player but all the top 3 teams have better centre backs. Liverpool are oceans away from the other sides in terms of quality. It definitely should be referred to as a top 3 instead of top 4 because Liverpool just don't come under the same bracket. Arsenal can get away with not being a team full of worldbeaters for numerous reasons but theres no reason to suggest Liverpool will become one anytime soon.

herbieflowers

you don't need world class players to beat the likes of Wigan at home!

~Rebel~

DSB wrote: »

Delusions of grandeur definitely seem to be a common feature of Liverpool fans. It's always just that 1 or 2 more things that are keeping Liverpool from winning titles apparently. Rubbish. Outside centre midfield and Torres there isnt a star amongst them. Carragher fouls too much and the amount of handballs I've seen him get away with is ridiculous. Decent player but all the top 3 teams have better centre backs. Liverpool are oceans away from the other sides in terms of quality. It definitely should be referred to as a top 3 instead of top 4 because Liverpool just don't come under the same bracket. Arsenal can get away with not being a team full of worldbeaters for numerous reasons but theres no reason to suggest Liverpool will become one anytime soon.

Dont see how it matters too much that the others have better defenders, if our defensive record matches theirs, which it has for years.

I dont for a second think we are man for man better then united or chelsea, but if you cant see that we're reasonably close to a title challenge you're just as dillusional. Christ, one person makes a comment and we all get written off as dilusional.

Personally a lot of the blame for tonight has to go to the players. PHB above picked out a comment i made earlier that it wasn't the 11 picked that was the problem, but I genuinely cant believe that someone can look at the 11 we had out and think they cant get the win. When they then only draw, you have to say that maybe, just maybe, those 11 players didn't do their jobs. A manager controls a lot, but at times the blame can come down to the players.

DSB

You're not far wrong there.

redspider

Now that we have reached the 20-game stage for all clubs, it is possible to compare performances. As a reminder, the ladder table after the first 10 games played this season was as follows:

26 Arsenal
25
24
23 Man U
22 Man C
21 Blackburn
20 Liverpool
19
18 Chelsea Portsmouth
17 Newcastle
16
15 Aston Villa
14 West Ham
13 Everton
12
11
10 Reading
9
8 Birm Fulh Sund Wigan M'Boro
7 Tottenham
6 Derby
5 Bolton

The points tally for the clubs in Games 11-20 are as follows:

Chelsea 23
Man Utd 22
Arsenal 21
Everton 20
Liverpool 18
Aston Villa 18
Tottenham 17
West Ham 15
Man City 14
Portsmouth 13
Reading 12
Middlesbrough 12
Bolton 12
Birmingham 11
Blackburn 9
Newcastle 9
Sunderland 9
Wigan 8
Fulham 7
Derby 1

Notable improvements from Spurs, Chelsea and Everton but also Bolton. Clubs showing a notable disimprovement include Portsmouth and Derby, Newcastle and Blackburn, but also Arsenal and Man City.

The differences in the points tallies between Games 11-20 and Games 1-10 are:

Tottenham 10
Bolton 7
Everton 7
Chelsea 5
Middlesbrough 4
Aston Villa 3
Birmingham 3
Reading 2
Sunderland 1
West Ham 1
Wigan 0
Fulham -1
Man U -1
Liverpool -2
Arsenal -5
Derby -5
Portsmouth -5
Man C -8
Newcastle -8
Blackburn -12

The Played-20 Ladder Table view is as follows:

47 Arsenal
46
45 Man U
44
43
42
41 Chelsea
40
39
38 Liverpool
37
36 Man C
35
34
33 Everton Aston Villa
32
31 Portsmouth
30 Blackburn
29 West Ham
28
27
26 Newcastle
25
24 Tottenham
23
22 Reading
21
20 Middlesboro
19 Birmingham
18
17 Bolton Sunderland
16 Wigan
15 Fulham
14
13
12
11
10
9
8
7 Derby

No prizes for seeing who are the likely candidates to win the league and get the CL places. Note that Sheffield Wednesday had 20 pts at the same stage last season and were relegated so Boro, Brum, Bolton and Sunderland fans be warned. Paul Jewell is already preparing for next season in the 2nd flight.

The change in points between this season and last is as follows:

Man C 13
Arsenal 11
West Ham 11
Aston Villa 8
Blackburn 5
Everton 5
Liverpool 4
Newcastle 1
Middlesboro -1
Portsmouth -4
Chelsea -5
Man U -5
Reading -5
Wigan -6
Tottenham -7
Fulham -10
Bolton -19

Notable improvement from Man City and Arsenal and West Ham. Bolton are way out in terms of a negative change. Man Utd are negative by 5, so indicating a closer title race perhaps. Chelsea are also off by 5. Liverpool are up +4, but that's hardly stellar, nor really a significant difference, and no need to re-iterate my position on our title prognosis.

Redspider

dc69

DSB wrote: »

You're not far wrong there.

what are u crapping on about,if we buy 2 good wingers and bring in a striker or put babel as striker,that is a team that is as good in my opinion as any of the top 4,talking about defenders is rubbish!we have a defence that easily matches the top 3 as you like to call it in stats!

DSB

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Dont see how it matters too much that the others have better defenders, if our defensive record matches theirs, which it has for years.

I dont for a second think we are man for man better then united or chelsea, but if you cant see that we're reasonably close to a title challenge you're just as dillusional. Christ, one person makes a comment and we all get written off as dilusional.

Personally a lot of the blame for tonight has to go to the players. PHB above picked out a comment i made earlier that it wasn't the 11 picked that was the problem, but I genuinely cant believe that someone can look at the 11 we had out and think they cant get the win. When they then only draw, you have to say that maybe, just maybe, those 11 players didn't do their jobs. A manager controls a lot, but at times the blame can come down to the players.

The defensive record has alot more to do with negative tactics. And no I'm not dillusional. 12 points off the top halfway through the season, having to play all the top 3 away, without a particularly young side, where is the potential there? Arsenal will only get better, their team is so young. United have ready made replacements for almost every position. They're pretty much sorted too. Where are Liverpool going to make the ground? And it wasn't in reference to just 1 comment. It was in reference to peoples ideas for how Liverpool were gonna do all season. Optimism is 1 thing but jaysus like.

DSB

dc69 wrote: »

what are u crapping on about,if we buy 2 good wingers and bring in a striker or put babel as striker,that is a team that is as good in my opinion as any of the top 4,talking about defenders is rubbish!we have a defence that easily matches the top 3 as you like to call it in stats!

Keep telling yourself that and maybe some day it will come true.

dc69

DSB wrote: »

Keep telling yourself that and maybe some day it will come true.

good man,piss off back to the united boys:)

DSB

I dont support United.

Attractive Nun

DSB, edited by me, obviously wrote:

Decent player but all the top 3 teams have TWO better centre backs.

I actually think Liverpool are quite weak defensively compared to Utd/Chelsea/Arsenal. Sure, they mightn't concede many goals but you do play quite defensively too, which will explain that. United won the league last season with Scholes and Carrick in centre midfield - neither are great tacklers, nor are they particularly defensive players in general. Ronaldo doesn't track back at all, neither does Saha. Rooney does a bit, but he's still a striker. Giggs kinda does, but not to any great effect really. I don't know if Liverpool's defence could cope with the tiny protection that it would be given by a more attacking team (the team that would presumably result from buying top class wingers and a striker).

Unearthly

DSB wrote: »

I dont support United.

Naturally anyone who criticises Liverpool must be a Man Utd fan

dc69

DSB wrote: »

I dont support United.

please enlighten us then?

an arsenal fan who thinks his team position for position are better than liverpool?

or a chelsea fan whos team wont win it either but will show their anger with a 100 million transfer spend?

or another?

~Rebel~

DSB wrote: »

The defensive record has alot more to do with negative tactics. And no I'm not dillusional. 12 points off the top halfway through the season, having to play all the top 3 away, without a particularly young side, where is the potential there? Arsenal will only get better, their team is so young. United have ready made replacements for almost every position. They're pretty much sorted too. Where are Liverpool going to make the ground? And it wasn't in reference to just 1 comment. It was in reference to peoples ideas for how Liverpool were gonna do all season. Optimism is 1 thing but jaysus like.

My comment was that we're obviously close to be able to put a challenge together next year, we obviously haven't done so this year, as shown tonight. And Liverpool have a pretty young side. Of the spine of the team Reina, Arbeloa, Agger, Mascherano, Alonso, Babel, Torres are all under 23 while Reina is 25 and Alonso is 26.

Its really not that much of a stretch that with 2 top class signings, Liverpool have a savage team.

dc69 he's a Villa fan.

DSB

I support Shelbourne and Aston Villa. Is that relevant though? I don't post how I think buying a player for A or B will turn either side into Champions. Sorry for not supporting a team that are in the titlerace.

dc69

DSB wrote: »

I don't post how I think buying a player for A or B will turn either side into Champions.

so if we replace a **** player with a good one,it wont help out chances for next year?

DSB

~Rebel~ wrote: »

My comment was that we're obviously close to be able to put a challenge together next year, we obviously haven't done so this year, as shown tonight. And Liverpool have a pretty young side. Of the spine of the team Reina, Arbeloa, Agger, Mascherano, Alonso, Babel, Torres are all under 23 while Reina is 25 and Alonso is 26.

Its really not that much of a stretch that with 2 top class signings, Liverpool have a savage team.

dc69 he's a Villa fan.

It actually is a big enough stretch. Your point of view is a highly idealistic 1 as it assumes that Liverpool will improve while United, Chelsea and Arsenal stay still or don't improve simultaneously. Liverpool may improve as a side next season. But it'll take a good few years to be putting in realistic challenges. I mean you're only 2 points ahead of Villa at the moment if I remember correctly. And we've certainly got more room for improvement. But I'm not that big of an idealist to make statements about what will probably never happen.

DSB

dc69 wrote: »

so if we replace a **** player with a good one,it wont help out chances for next year?

Course it will. Won't turn you into anything close to title contenders though.

~Rebel~

DSB wrote: »

I don't post how I think buying a player for A or B will turn either side into Champions.

Thats fine, but this is a Liverpool thread, so it makes sense that people would suggest what they think is needed to push on. Personally i would like 2 top notch wingers, or else a top notch wing forward (Benzema) to play up front in a 4-3-3 with Torres and Babel, with Mascherano, Alonso and Gerrard behind them.

Dont see how this is any different from Villa fans suggesting what they want to be able to keep up their progress and push onto the next level.

DSB

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Thats fine, but this is a Liverpool thread, so it makes sense that people would suggest what they think is needed to push on. Personally i would like 2 top notch wingers, or else a top notch wing forward (Benzema) to play up front in a 4-3-3 with Torres and Babel, with Mascherano, Alonso and Gerrard behind them.

Dont see how this is any different from Villa fans suggesting what they want to be able to keep up their progress and push onto the next level.

You're perfectly right in saying this. But thats not what most posts in this thread contain really. Alot of it is assumptions that Action A or Action B would do this. For the whole season Liverpool fans have been going on about how close they are to a challenge. I don't see it. I see as it as unrealistic hence my argument. No matter how poor Liverpool get, the fans just don't seem to be able to accept the harsh realities.

~Rebel~

DSB wrote: »

It actually is a big enough stretch. Your point of view is a highly idealistic 1 as it assumes that Liverpool will improve while United, Chelsea and Arsenal stay still or don't improve simultaneously. Liverpool may improve as a side next season. But it'll take a good few years to be putting in realistic challenges.

Look at it this way, For the past few years the top teams have been pushing at full stretch. They're teams may improve, but their points total's probably cant.

Therefore whats obviously required by Liverpool is to gain more points off all the other teams. We need to match Man U etc's results against the other teams to put in a challenge. After that comes the problem of actually winning the league. Note I mentioned a challenge wasn't far off, not an actual Win.


I have a feeling that if Villa managed to get in players like Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard and Torres, on top of having had a very solid defensive record for years, you'd start to expect a title push within the near future.

DSB

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Look at it this way, For the past few years the top teams have been pushing at full stretch. They're teams may improve, but their points total's probably cant.

Therefore whats obviously required by Liverpool is to gain more points off all the other teams. We need to match Man U etc's results against the other teams to put in a challenge. After that comes the problem of actually winning the league. Note I mentioned a challenge wasn't far off, not an actual Win.

Em theres definitely an equal amount of room for improvement in Man Uniteds points tally than there is Liverpool's. Liverpool's points tally is up on last season as pointed out by Redspider. United's is down. But there is definitely more potential for improvement in the United side. They aren't just better at the moment but they also have the players to be better for another 5/6 years minimum. As do Arsenal. They will only improve. As a result, it is definitely something radical, not something small needed to challenge.

~Rebel~

DSB wrote: »

Em theres definitely an equal amount of room for improvement in Man Uniteds points tally than there is Liverpool's. Liverpool's points tally is up on last season as pointed out by Redspider. United's is down. But there is definitely more potential for improvement in the United side. They aren't just better at the moment but they also have the players to be better for another 5/6 years minimum. As do Arsenal. They will only improve. As a result, it is definitely something radical, not something small needed to challenge.

What i mean is that their team can improve all they want, what we need to do is get more points off all the other teams in the league, which has nothing to do with Man U, Arsenal or Chelsea's teams, and then we'll find ourselves in a title challenge.

DSB

I understand, but to get similar points tallys you've got to get to similar levels to those clubs. I mean in an ideal world even the poor teams could say well if we picked up an extra 12 points we'd be doing *insert aspiration here* but there needs to be some sort of basis to suggest the team can do this. Frankly I think the teams below Liverpool are getting closer to relieving them of their 4th place berth than Liverpool are bridging the gap with the top 3. And I don't just mean in relation to this season.

PHB

Villa and Alves (2 of the 3 in the post you quoted) he wanted in the summer he arrived, no duds on board at that point.

I'm sure he wanted to sign lots of other players, it's just that these two are used because they worked out.

This is all a linked issue so lets look at it as such:

Who would I keep of the players that left? None of them! I think the players he got rid of are all ****. That said, squads will have that. United have it. Hell Richardson got a premiership medal last year!

The issue is that the replacements haven't been much, nay at all, better. This is where the money has been wasted, in pretty much every area.

Pongolle + Diouf vs. Penannt and Yossi:

Pongolle sold for 2.7
Diouf sold for 4
Pennant cost 6.7
Yossi cost 5 million

Improvement? Yes. Much, not really.
Cost: 5 million

Baros + Cisse vs. Kuyt + Crouch

Cost: 1.5 million
Improvement? Yes. Much? Not really.

Wasted money: Players bought and sold by Rafa.

Morientes - Cost: 6.3 - Sold: 3 Waste: 3.3 million
Gonzalez - Cost: 4.5 - Sold: 3.5 Waste: 1 million
Paletta - Cost: 2 - Sold: 0 Waste 2 million
Garcia - Cost: 6 - Sold: 2.7 Waste 3.3 million

[these were not shifted on at a profit like you suggested]

That's 17.6 million. How much did Torres cost? Two of them up front would make a big difference this year.

Or take for example 2006 summer. People always talk about how Moore had to pay for Kuyt out of his own pocket. Well, Kuyt cost 9 million, Bellamy cost 6 million. For 15 million you could have gotten one top quality striker. Once again, quantity over quality.

Bad buys:
Pennant - 6.7 million
Crouch - 7 million
Sissoko - 5.6 million
Gonzalez - 4.5 million
Morientes - 6.3 million
Kuyt - 9 million
Yossi - 5 million

You may say these will be sold on, but they will in general make little to no profit, often a loss, especially when you consider wages.

These can be strongly contrasted not just with other teams, but with Rafa himself.
Good buys:
Alonso - 10.5 million
Agger - 5.8 million
Lucas - 5 million
Arbeloa - 2.5 million
Reina - 6 million

Or just look at Fergie in that time period:
Vidic - 7 million
Evra - 5.5 million
Park - 4 million

Or look at Wenger:
Hleb - 9.9 million
Abedyour - 3 million
Sagna - 6 million
Eduardo - 8 million

Rafa has too many bad buys!
So that's
Transfer Market Buys
- Quantity over Quality
- Has Poor Judgement
B. Player Control
- Isn't willing to work with players
- Doesn't have great discipline
He couldn't get him to change his play to play on the right like Rafa thought was his best position was. Not to mention the fact that Gerrard has publically criticised him in the press for dropping him. Can you imagine that happening to Fergie or Wenger? Not a chance.

The only other issue we disagreed on was rotation. It's not that his players that rotate in are poor (they are) it's that he picks bad times for it.

dc69

DSB wrote: »

Em theres definitely an equal amount of room for improvement in Man Uniteds points tally than there is Liverpool's. Liverpool's points tally is up on last season as pointed out by Redspider. United's is down. But there is definitely more potential for improvement in the United side. They aren't just better at the moment but they also have the players to be better for another 5/6 years minimum. As do Arsenal. They will only improve. As a result, it is definitely something radical, not something small needed to challenge.

so say we talk next year do you think this team would not be title contenders? thats 1 change!

---finnan--carragher---agger---aurelio

---

mashc

---

alonso

---

---

gerrard

---

--babel

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quaresma---

---

torres

---

DSB

PHB wrote: »

I'm sure he wanted to sign lots of other players, it's just that these two are used because they worked out.

This is all a linked issue so lets look at it as such:

Who would I keep of the players that left? None of them! I think the players he got rid of are all ****. That said, squads will have that. United have it. Hell Richardson got a premiership medal last year!

The issue is that the replacements haven't been much, nay at all, better. This is where the money has been wasted, in pretty much every area.

Pongolle + Diouf vs. Penannt and Yossi:

Pongolle sold for 2.7
Diouf sold for 4
Pennant cost 6.7
Yossi cost 5 million

Improvement? Yes. Much, not really.
Cost: 5 million

Baros + Cisse vs. Kuyt + Crouch

Cost: 1.5 million
Improvement? Yes. Much? Not really.

Wasted money: Players bought and sold by Rafa.

Morientes - Cost: 6.3 - Sold: 3 Waste: 3.3 million
Gonzalez - Cost: 4.5 - Sold: 3.5 Waste: 1 million
Paletta - Cost: 2 - Sold: 0 Waste 2 million
Garcia - Cost: 6 - Sold: 2.7 Waste 3.3 million

[these were not shifted on at a profit like you suggested]

That's 17.6 million. How much did Torres cost? Two of them up front would make a big difference this year.

Or take for example 2006 summer. People always talk about how Moore had to pay for Kuyt out of his own pocket. Well, Kuyt cost 9 million, Bellamy cost 6 million. For 15 million you could have gotten one top quality striker. Once again, quantity over quality.

Bad buys:
Pennant - 6.7 million
Crouch - 7 million
Sissoko - 5.6 million
Gonzalez - 4.5 million
Morientes - 6.3 million
Kuyt - 9 million
Yossi - 5 million

You may say these will be sold on, but they will in general make little to no profit, often a loss, especially when you consider wages.

These can be strongly contrasted not just with other teams, but with Rafa himself.
Good buys:
Alonso - 10.5 million
Agger - 5.8 million
Lucas - 5 million
Arbeloa - 2.5 million
Reina - 6 million

Or just look at Fergie in that time period:
Vidic - 7 million
Evra - 5.5 million
Park - 4 million

Or look at Wenger:
Hleb - 9.9 million
Abedyour - 3 million
Sagna - 6 million
Eduardo - 8 million

Rafa has too many bad buys!
So that's
Transfer Market Buys
- Quantity over Quality
- Has Poor Judgement
B. Player Control
- Isn't willing to work with players
- Doesn't have great discipline
He couldn't get him to change his play to play on the right like Rafa thought was his best position was. Not to mention the fact that Gerrard has publically criticised him in the press for dropping him. Can you imagine that happening to Fergie or Wenger? Not a chance.

The only other issue we disagreed on was rotation. It's not that his players that rotate in are poor (they are) it's that he picks bad times for it.

Excellent post.

DSB

dc69 wrote: »

so say we talk next year do you think this team would not be title contenders? thats 1 change!

---finnan--carragher---agger---aurelio

---

mashc

---

alonso

---

---

gerrard

---

--babel

---

quaresma---

---

torres

---

No I don't think so really at all.