Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

dc69

DSB wrote: »

No I don't think so really at all.

well i dissagree with you and i think most football fans in general would tbh

who do you think can stay ,out of current players?

say we look at utd,the midfield i listed is better than theres and the strike force is easily as good as theres.the defence is not that much weaker,but yet they are title contenders?

DSB

dc69 wrote: »

well i dissagree with you and i think most football fans in general would tbh

who do you think can stay?

You think Quaresma alone will put 12 points onto the side? Seriously?

Unearthly

dc69 wrote: »

say we look at utd,the midfield i listed is better than theres and the strike force is easily as good as theres.the defence is not that much weaker,but yet they are title contenders?

No it's not!

You have an excellent player in Torres, and no other class forward

Man Utd have Rooney and Tevez who are quality

dc69

DSB wrote: »

You think Quaresma alone will put 12 points onto the side? Seriously?

no,but he allows the team to succesfully line out in a way that maxamises the part of our squad which is the strongest,the midfield!quaresma is just an example,any quality winger/striker that can play in that formation is good

dc69

Unearthly wrote: »

No it's not!

You have an excellent player in Torres, and no other class forward

Man Utd have Rooney and Tevez who are quality

tevez is quality,rooney is overhyped to ****,look at his strike rate this season.if rooney wasnt english the media wouldnt hype him up as much,i rate him,but i dont think he is anywhere near tevez or ronaldo

DSB

dc69 wrote: »

no,but he allows the team to succesfully line out in a way that maxamises the part of our squad which is the strongest,the midfield!quaresma is just an example,any quality winger/striker that can play in that formation is good

But what about the fact that the rest of the team isn't as good as the other sides? Or the fact that Rafa has the team play too negative football?

DSB

dc69 wrote: »

tevez is quality,rooney is overhyped to ****,look at his strike rate this season.if rooney wasnt english the media wouldnt hype him up as much,i rate him,but i dont think he is anywhere near tevez or ronaldo

If Rooney played for Liverpool you'd be hyping him up to the heavens.

dc69

DSB wrote: »

If Rooney played for Liverpool you'd be hyping him up to the heavens.

i probably would,he doesnt so im gona compare him to their other 2 best attatcking players and he hasnt a patch

Attractive Nun

dc69 wrote: »

so say we talk next year do you think this team would not be title contenders? thats 1 change!

---finnan--carragher---agger---aurelio

---

mashc

---

alonso

---

---

gerrard

---

--babel

---

quaresma---

---

torres

---

Finnan - Ageing. Not as good as Sagna. Not as good as in form Neville (though he might be gone, United will address this issue soon). Probably better than any of Chelsea's RBs.

Carragher - Also Ageing. Not as good as Toure, Terry or Vidic IMO.

Agger - Not as good as Ferdinand, Carvalho or Gallas - though has good potential.

Aurelio - Not as good as Evra, Clichy or Cole.

Mascherano - Marginally better than Hargreaves, better than Flamini and Mikel, though these two might be as good next season.

Alonso - On this and last seasons' form, not as good as Scholes/Anderson, not as good as Essien, similar level to Rosicky

Gerrard (regarding his position as 'main midfielder' or something) - Not as good as Ronaldo or Fabregas, marginally better than Lampard.

Quaresma - Better than Nani, perhaps any of Chelsea's wingers, about as good as Hleb

Babel - Not as good as Tevez, not as good as Van Persie, about as good as any of Chelsea's wingers. Though has potential to be as good as any of the above maybe.

Torres - Marginally better than Rooney (tough call though), not as good as Drogba (tough call again), better than Adebayor.


Granted, it was a difficult formation to compare, but no I don't think that first XI would be good enough to challenge.

DSB

But he is better than all Liverpool's attacking players.

Paul Tergat

dc69 wrote: »

i probably would,he doesnt so im gona compare him to their other 2 best attatcking players and he hasnt a patch

there has been so much shíte written in this thread tonight but this takes the biscuit!

dc69

p_larkin99 wrote: »

there has been so much shíte written in this thread tonight but this takes the biscuit!

lol

~Rebel~

PHB wrote: »

I'm sure he wanted to sign lots of other players, it's just that these two are used because they worked out.

Well it was me that used them, and i brought them up as they were 2 signings that kept getting brought up time and time again, with Simao and later Malouda, who we were in talks to get and then didn't.

This is all a linked issue so lets look at it as such:

Who would I keep of the players that left? None of them! I think the players he got rid of are all ****. That said, squads will have that. United have it. Hell Richardson got a premiership medal last year!

The issue is that the replacements haven't been much, nay at all, better. This is where the money has been wasted, in pretty much every area.

Pongolle + Diouf vs. Penannt and Yossi:

Pongolle sold for 2.7
Diouf sold for 4
Pennant cost 6.7
Yossi cost 5 million

Like, its an ok point on paper, but in reality there was no way Diouf could stay at the club, I'm sure you can see that. Pongolle as i said i agree with, a the money wasn't even enough to help the club. He himself wanted regular football which he wouldn't have gotten so wasn't really an option.

Baros + Cisse vs. Kuyt + Crouch
Cost: 1.5 million
Improvement? Yes. Much? Not really.

Baros wasn't one i wanted sold either, but a decent offer came in. Cisse was ruled out for the next 6 to 8 months when he went on the market. Also for 1.5mill is this one really worth mentioning?

Your post and that point always come across as Houllier's squad players should have been kept, but untill you go into more detail on the Diao's and the Cheyrou's and the Henchoz's and why they should have stayed then its just a case of these couple above..

Wasted money: Players bought and sold by Rafa.

Morientes - Cost: 6.3 - Sold: 3 Waste: 3.3 million
Gonzalez - Cost: 4.5 - Sold: 3.5 Waste: 1 million
Paletta - Cost: 2 - Sold: 0 Waste 2 million
Garcia - Cost: 6 - Sold: 2.7 Waste 3.3 million

[these were not shifted on at a profit like you suggested]

I didn't suggest we made a profit. Look again, I said we generally moved them on for about the same, and also got a year or so's use out of them. Also, Gonzalez was sold for 4.3m and Paletta's was undisclosed.

Or take for example 2006 summer. People always talk about how Moore had to pay for Kuyt out of his own pocket. Well, Kuyt cost 9 million, Bellamy cost 6 million. For 15 million you could have gotten one top quality striker. Once again, quantity over quality.

But again, this comes down to, would the board, and Moores, especially when paying himself opt for 1 player who if he flops we're a bit fcked, or 2 whereby we can almost definately get a profit when selling on Bellamy given his low cost.

Bad buys:
Pennant - 6.7 million
Crouch - 7 million
Sissoko - 5.6 million
Gonzalez - 4.5 million
Morientes - 6.3 million
Kuyt - 9 million
Yossi - 5 million

You may say these will be sold on, but they will in general make little to no profit, often a loss, especially when you consider wages.

Of those i would class Gonzalez and Morientes as bad buys. Pennant i've been happy enough with, obviosly i'd have preferred a bigger player, but we were forced into him when the board once agian wouldn't seal the deal for Alves. Crouch I've been very happy with overall. Done far better then I ever expected from him. Momo is decent cover, and until this season has been pretty immense when called upon. Tough to call him a bad buy based on only this year and ignoring the previous 2. Kuyt, I guess this one comes down to opinions, but I really like Kuyt. I'd like us to shift him down the pecking order and have someone better ahead of him. Yossi, again this is tough. Board stopped the Malouda move (according to Malouda himself) so again this level of quality was the only one on the cards.

He couldn't get him to change his play to play on the right like Rafa thought was his best position was. Not to mention the fact that Gerrard has publically criticised him in the press for dropping him. Can you imagine that happening to Fergie or Wenger? Not a chance.

He actually said Rafa was wrong to drop him?! I dont remember that...closest i can think of was when he got taken off against Everton, where he said that change won us the game and that he'd ask Rafa why he went. That, I wasn't fond of, but took it to mean, he'd ask what he had to improve, as the alternative makes no sense given that he already said the change won the game.

Attractive Nun

who do you think can stay ,out of current players?

To answer that, I would say that the following are/might be good enough for a title-winning/seriously challenging side:

Definites:

Reina
Gerrard
Mascherano
Torres

Maybes/Probablys:

Carragher - on the form of past seasons, not this season. May be ageing as I said.
Agger - Great player for his age, but would still need to improve
Alonso - Not good enough recently, would need to regain past form
Arbeloa - I like him, would probably need to improve but FB ain't that important really
Babel - Would need to fufill his potential, by no means a sure thing
Lucas - Same

10 altogether, 4 of whom are central midfielders, and most of whom could go eiher way over the coming seasons.

cson

I know this is the Liverpool thread, but Attractive Nun mentioned Sagna above, for a guy that just joined in the summer he's been unbelieveable. A snip at £6 million.

On topic, while you may talk of bringing in players (As pointed out, for all his merits Rafa Quaresma won't get you an extra 12 points) I would suggest a change in style is needed at Pool. Definitely, the rotation ****e has to go though, and I don't think anyone can disagree with that.

dc69

cson wrote: »

On topic, while you may talk of bringing in players (As pointed out, for all his merits Rafa Quaresma won't get you an extra 12 points) I would suggest a change in style is needed at Pool. Definitely, the rotation ****e has to go though, and I don't think anyone can disagree with that.

exactly and if we aint gona get money then maybe using a diamond formation up top like barca would be best as most of our good players are midfielders and would let us use all of them,the fact he has no set formation and no set first team,screws everything up

PHB

~Rebel~
you missed the point there,

That's 17.6 million

In total there. Wasted. That could have bought another top quality winger, but Rafa wasted it.

Rafa doesn't seem to be building towards anything. I can't see what system he is trying to make. Infact I don't think he has a system he is trying to get towards.

DSB

dc69 wrote: »

i probably would,he doesnt so im gona compare him to their other 2 best attatcking players and he hasnt a patch

This remains the most ridiculous post I've seen made.

dc69

how so,do you not understand english?

rooney is nowhere near as good as tevez or ronaldo!any more clear!

DSB

Hahahaha read the post in its entirety.

dc69

I have and im sure if he was playing for liverpool he would be even more overrated ,especially seeing as he is from liverpool.doesnt change anything

cson

I think that 17.6 Million would have been better spent on a top quality striker PHB. The other three sides have Van Persie + Adebayor, Tevez + Rooney, Drogba + Shevchenko. Now granted, Shevchenko isn't up to much these days but all the rest are top drawer strikers. Torres is the only Pool striker that'd make a challenge for a place at any of the other clubs. Crouch and Kuyt, while they may do a job for the likes of a City/Villa/Everton are simply not up to it for a club with title ambitions.

Go out any buy David Villa and have the Spanish strikeforce in your team.

DSB

cson wrote: »

I think that 17.6 Million would have been better spent on a top quality striker PHB. The other three sides have Van Persie + Adebayor, Tevez + Rooney, Drogba + Shevchenko. Now granted, Shevchenko isn't up to much these days but all the rest are top drawer strikers. Torres is the only Pool striker that'd make a challenge for a place at any of the other clubs. Crouch and Kuyt, while they may do a job for the likes of a City/Villa/Everton are simply not up to it for a club with title ambitions.

Crouch and Kuyt would not be starters at Villa. I've never understood the assumption that their backup players would get their game at the sides just below them. People thought the same about Djemba Djemba and em look how that ended up. Crouch has been a Villa player and couldn't get a look in. And Carew and Agbonlahor are of a far higher class than Kuyt.

~Rebel~

PHB wrote: »

~Rebel~
you missed the point there,

That's 17.6 million

In total there. Wasted. That could have bought another top quality winger, but Rafa wasted it.

I see the point you're making there, and even aside from any errors/realistic changes (i.e there being no way Diouf could have stayed at the club, Paletta not going for free and Gonzalez being closer to a breakeven at bout .2m loss, making the total closer to 12.6million), the main thing is that hindsight is 20/20.

Im pretty sure Morientes looked a steal at that price, i was delighted with it. Paletta and Gonzalez were both very promising young players. Its very harsh to just add them all up after and then say what he should have done before the situation had even arisen. Had he not done the 2 youth deals for instance, Im not sure the board would have been any more leniant then they ever proved to be in splashing out this 17mill on a winger. In hindsight they'd look at it and go yes, that would have worked out better, but in practice, if he said we can get this one savege winger, or get Morientes from Madrid, this highly rated winger kid i've been watching at Albacete and this young Argentinian U-20 international who's looked great at River Plate, im pretty sure with the position Liverpool were in, they'd have said we'll take 3 over the 1 thank you very much.[/QUOTE]

cson

DSB wrote: »

Crouch and Kuyt would not be starters at Villa. I've never understood the assumption that their backup players would get their game at the sides just below them. People thought the same about Djemba Djemba and em look how that ended up. Crouch has been a Villa player and couldn't get a look in. And Carew and Agbonlahor are of a far higher class than Kuyt.

Fair point as regards Villa. Probably would get a look in at City and maybe Everton. Yakubu could probably cut it at Pool come to think of it.

The point I'm trying to make is that Crouch and Kuyt (And Voroin needless to say) are not good enough for a team that holds aspirations of winning the league.

DSB

They really aren't no. I've heard alot of people mention these players as squad players. Don't think so at all. Players like Anderson, Wes Brown, Nani, Park, Makelele, Cudicini, Kalou, Wright-Phillips, Gilberto, Diarra, Denilson and Bendtner(those 2 because they're so young and are bound to be assets in the future with the potential they have) are far more accurate.

cson

You got in one there DSB

Sizzler

But Kuyt 'works hard' for the team :rolleyes:

Glad to see the penny has dropped with some Pool fans that this lad is muck and as a striker he should be scoring goals and not "chasing people down" - "working hard" [insert random excuse here].

^^ Even Villa fans are saying he's not good enough for their team

Just be glad you have Torres lads or you really would be in trouble.

shotamoose

PHB wrote: »

That's 17.6 million.

Or one Michael Carrick. Or three-fifths of a Juan Sebastian Veron. Quality over quantity for Fergie, isn't it?

And given Garcia's contribution to Liverpool during his stay and his role in facilitating the Torres transfer, I'd hardly sum him up as a £3m 'waste'.

cournioni

shotamoose wrote: »

Or one Michael Carrick. Or three-fifths of a Juan Sebastian Veron. Quality over quantity for Fergie, isn't it?

... and both have Premiership medals with United. Whats your point?

_blank_

BBC Radio reporting Wayne Bridge to Liverpool.

kida

Will be interesting to see if he is given any money to buy players now or is he told make to with what you have until the end of the season. If the latter could be a sign that they could be thinking of moving him on.

There could be a danger of finishing outside the top 4, City are more than capable of staying ahead of Liverpool and they don't have the added distrraction of the CL and have a manager tactically astute enough to keep them up there.

Mitch Connor

shotamoose wrote: »

Or one Michael Carrick. Or three-fifths of a Juan Sebastian Veron. Quality over quantity for Fergie, isn't it?

And given Garcia's contribution to Liverpool during his stay and his role in facilitating the Torres transfer, I'd hardly sum him up as a £3m 'waste'.

Carrick was great last season - and was a major reason we won the title. He has let it go t his head by all accounts though (hence his new nickname BBB) and is muck this season.

Veron was sold for just a little less then we paid for him, but overall he was a poor buy. Forlan, Kleberson, Bellion and Djemba Djemba would be other standouts.

_blank_

What does BBB stand for then?

Please PM me if you can't say it publically, thanks.

Mitch Connor

DesF wrote: »

What does BBB stand for then?

Please PM me if you can't say it publically, thanks.

Billy Big B's

I reckon you can work out the last B.

Apparently Fergie has been getting more and more annoyed with him this season, and has called him BBB on more then one occassion, while telling him to cop himself on.

Cyrus

Tauren wrote: »

Carrick was great last season - and was a major reason we won the title. He has let it go t his head by all accounts though (hence his new nickname BBB) and is muck this season.

Veron was sold for just a little less then we paid for him, but overall he was a poor buy. Forlan, Kleberson, Bellion and Djemba Djemba would be other standouts.

er veron was sold for half what united paid for him about 2 years after they bought him

Mitch Connor

Cyrus wrote: »

er veron was sold for half what united paid for him about 2 years after they bought him

The agreed fee for Veron was 27million, with a large portion of that being appearence and performance related (especially in Europe)

We actually paid 18million for him in the end, and sold him for 15.

Cyrus

Tauren wrote: »

The agreed fee for Veron was 27million, with a large portion of that being appearence and performance related (especially in Europe)

We actually paid 18million for him in the end, and sold him for 15.

so while the 27 only cost united 18, they got the full 15 from chelsea??

mike65

This thread has turned into one of those endless Liverpool themed threads on guardian sport blogs! You can tell many were posted in the wee small hours too.

Mike.

jesus_thats_gre

Some extremely petty posts on this thread in the past 12 hours.. Some of ye have an unhealthy obsession with Liverpool.

Mitch Connor

Cyrus wrote: »

so while the 27 only cost united 18, they got the full 15 from chelsea??

as far as I know.

Remember, Chelsea were splashing the cash at the time.

mike65

From telegraph

Wayne Bridge offered escape route to Anfield in £6m switch
Matt Hughes

Wayne Bridge’s unhappy 3½year spell at Chelsea could end with a £6 million move to Liverpool, one of their main rivals for the Barclays Premier League title.

The left back, 27, whose appearances at Stamford Bridge have been limited since the arrival of Ashley Cole from Arsenal, has already turned down the chance to switch to three top-flight rivals, but he may view the chance of resurrecting his career at Anfield more positively. He is one of the leading targets for Rafael BenÍtez, the Liverpool manager, after a failed attempt to sign Gabriel Heinze, the former Manchester United defender.

Now this is actualy interesting, looks like Riise is on his way (to sunny Spain proberbly)

Mike.

Spud83

OK after reading the last few pages (since last night’s game). Everyone seems to agree that Liverpool need a large influx of cash to attract a number of top class players. The problem here is I do not believe Benitez will be given this money in January and even if he is it is hard to attract top class players at this time of the year.

So you are looking at next summer. I don’t have much faith in the current relationship between Rafa and the owners. So let’s say you finish this season in roughly the same position as last season with an improvement in the league points wise. I believe two things could happen, first the owners will see the league position and question the size of the improvement, secondly they may see teams in 5th and 6th a lot closer to Liverpool than previous years. Again bringing the improvement into question.

However I don’t think this will be the main problem. The biggest fear I would have if I was a Liverpool supporter is Rafa throwing his toys out of his pram again at the end of the season. He done it last year, and again in December. Now I’m not looking to debate whether he is correct in his views or not. But I doubt the owners will tolerate another outburst, which could lead to A) Rafa being fired without a replacement waiting, or Rafa quitting because he is getting pissed with the owners not releasing money while they way up/research there managerial situation.

Now I’m not saying he should or should not be fired, I’m just saying that if I was Liverpool fan, I would be worried about the fact that this situation is a very real possibility.

prendy

as a pool fam its funny reading these posts. i mean people think one change in our squad an were gonna make up the points difference?
we still need a CB...badly.
our wingers are well below par.
ronaldo cole SWP etc....even giggs still better than ours.

i agree about the quantity over quality argument. id be happy if this time next year we have added 1/2 CB and one world class winger/matchwinner to the team.
but the thing is utd chelsea and arsenal are gonna improve their squads aswell.

very dissapointing result last night...feels like a loss.
poor performance against poor opposition.

citytillidie

Last night was a bad performance should have put away more of the chances that were created.

So we drew with Wigan and Man City its not the end of the world. I did not think Liverpool would win the Preimer League this year as some of the players he brought in needed the experience.

If Rafa stays in the summer he is building a team that is going to challenge he changed the reserve team to a B team that is leading the reserve league and some of these players can be brought up.

Those going on about Finnan been old and no replacement, there is a replacement he is currently playing centre back Arbeloa.

Alsono has been injured for most of the season as has Agger these two when on form are very good players and Agger at his age is better than Terry and Rio were at that age. I think Ferdinand is way over rated because he is English when Vidic was out Ferdinand looked very shaky.

jesus_thats_gre

The worst of it is, alot of what is being said in the past 12 hours has been said by Liverpool fans for months on this very thread. IMO, it would have been pushing the boat out a bit much to expect Liverpool to genuinely contest the league this season. Maybe we could have won it if about 20 things went in our favour but that was never going to happen.

I personally have stated, on multiple occassions, that we need 2 world class wingers, a world class striker and another very good centre back before we can genuinely compete.

As for last nights match.. It is a massive disappointment purely because we should have won and done enough to do so. Typically, as has been Liverpool's failing for the past 5 years, we were unable to put the ball in the net. As has been said before, the time to get worried is when you aren't creating the chances.

Guy:Incognito

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Maybe we could have won it if about 20 things went in our favour but that was never going to happen.
.

Dropping stupid pointslike last night, 3 to Reading etc means the chance for other things to go our way never arises.

I'm a fan of Bridge, he gets forward a lot more than some others.

Melion

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

... and both have Premiership medals with United. Whats your point?

Djimi Traore, Vladi Smicer, Jerzy Dudek all have Champions League medals, whats your point?

Some of the shíte posted in this thread over the last 12 hours has been hilarious to read. Adebayor only cost £3m??? Think again. Try somewhere between 7 and 10 but of course, that doesnt fit with your argument about Rafa being rubbish in the transfer market. Amazing that there has been very little posted about Fergie's terrible dealings in the market, 30m for Ferdinand, 18m for Carrick, 20m+ for Hargreaves. Hilarious.

Melion

And why the hell are we going for Bridge when we have Aurelio who is a far superior player?

kida

Melion wrote: »

Djimi Traore, Vladi Smicer, Jerzy Dudek all have Champions League medals, whats your point?

Some of the shíte posted in this thread over the last 12 hours has been hilarious to read. Adebayor only cost £3m??? Think again. Try somewhere between 7 and 10 but of course, that doesnt fit with your argument about Rafa being rubbish in the transfer market. Amazing that there has been very little posted about Fergie's terrible dealings in the market, 30m for Ferdinand, 18m for Carrick, 20m+ for Hargreaves. Hilarious.

Utd have won the league - which makes the signings worth it. 18M was a lot for Carrick but they would prob not have won the league last year without him, which makes it worth it.