Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

Peyton Manning

Mr Alan wrote: »

according to Rafa, the new slovak lad is quick, do you know something he doesnt?

In all fairness, according to Rafa, 1-1 at Middlesboro is a good result.

el rabitos

well if rafa says it....

Jazzy

Helix wrote: »

theres ALWAYS a bloody excuse with liverpool fans

nah, only the dillusional ones. believe it or not there is realistic liverpool fans in existence... Mr Alan isnt the voice of pool fans

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

christ how are you fitting all that ****e out your arse?!

according to Rafa, the new slovak lad is quick, do you know something he doesnt?

during Rafas reign we have been in two champions league finals, winning one. And won an FA cup. pulling our hair out!? hardly!

the slovak press has slated him for his lack of pace and poor decision making

Mr Alan

Helix wrote: »

with a different manager id agree

really?!?!? a few posts back you just said we have only really purchased ****e to mediocre players in the last few years?! how did you expect us to win the league with a different manager if we only had ****e players?

Mental Mickey

Helix wrote: »

the slovak press has slated him for his lack of pace and poor decision making

Who?? Rafa or Skrtel???

Mr Alan

Helix wrote: »

the slovak press has slated him for his lack of pace and poor decision making

Do you buy many slovak papers?

Tusky

I dont see what the big argument is about.

We finished 3rd the last two seasons.
Rafa made some good buys during the summer, notably a top class striker and a well thought of winger.
Many Liverpool fans thought that we could challenge, not win, but challenge for league title.
Liverpool started well but have been inconsistent since then and title challenge has dissolved
Liverpool fans disappointed.

Thats about it. Why all the arguing ? What do you want us to say ? That the team is **** ?

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

We should be doing better with our home form because thats the way we have been for years, anfield is usually a fortress, this year for some reason, its not.

and this is where YOUR point runs astray, our home record this season is one of the worst itd been in my memory

if it was on a par with last seasons we'd be pushing chelsea

but heres the important part, the part you should remember:

our home form HASNT been good, neither has yours, and ifs and buts count for absolutely nothing

Mr Alan

Jazzy wrote: »

nah, only the dillusional ones. believe it or not there is realistic liverpool fans in existence... Mr Alan isnt the voice of pool fans

nor do i claim to be.

any examples of anything delusional i've said this evening?

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

Do you buy many slovak papers?

nah, ive found this amazing thing called the internet

you should check it out, its really quite nifty for finding information

theres this thing called google you can use for searching for things, it really is amazingly handy

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

really?!?!? a few posts back you just said we have only really purchased ****e to mediocre players in the last few years?! how did you expect us to win the league with a different manager if we only had ****e players?

yis have a core decent squad, a decent manager would most certainly have yis challenging for the title

Mikeyt086

Tusky wrote: »

Also, had you heard of Agger or Vidic before they were signed ?

:rolleyes:

I said: He could go on to be a Vidic.

Explained: Being an unknown player brought in as support who turns out to be a monster and destroys everything.

Im talking out of my arse? Your far too defensive, even when people arnt having a go.

Mr Alan

Helix wrote: »

yis have a core decent squad, a decent manager would most certainly have yis challenging for the title

But Rafa has bought this decent core squad, a minute ago you said he was ****e in the transfer market!?

yayamark

i was rediculed about a month ago for been what was it? oh ya " Doom and gloom" when in fact i was been realistic and truthful.

Was i right back then? i think so!

I'm a fan. They are ****e and there is no excuse none.

Mr Alan

Helix wrote: »

nah, ive found this amazing thing called the internet

you should check it out, its really quite nifty for finding information

theres this thing called google you can use for searching for things, it really is amazingly handy

can i have a link to these articles please. i'd actually like to read em, know feck all about his lad.

Tusky

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

I said: He could go on to be a Vidic.

Explained: Being an unknown player brought in as support who turns out to be a monster and destroys everything.

Im talking out of my arse? Your far too defensive, even when people arnt having a go.

Ok, fair enough, I apologies for the talking out of your arse comment. However, the guy is going to be 3rd/4th choice CB. Theres no point spending lots of money on an established CB that will expect to play. He is exactly the type of player we should be buying.

Young, highly rated & willing to fight for his place and learn from those around him.

Chong

I admire your honesty yayamark, your like a couple of my mates who are pool fans , they would be in agreeance with you. Some pool fans cant see the wood from the trees, I have seen one mate have a blazing argument with another mate who are both pool fans because one the guys said the team was sh!te.

Mikeyt086

Just out of intrest how much did he cost? (Skrtel that is, forgot to quote Tusky)

And another question, what do you lot feel about Mascherano, buy him? Or use the 17mil on a crisis point (Winger/Striker)?

Tusky

Helix - Can I ask you a question ?

What exactly do you want us to say & what is the point to all this arguing ?

I love Liverpool and have watched every game this season. I hoped that we could be amongst the top 2 or 3 come the end of the season but it hasnt happened and I'm really disappointed. I have faith in Rafa doing good things with Liverpool based on his past successes in the league in Spain & and with ourselves in cup competitions. I'm not sure if he can win us the league...but im hopeful. Does that sound unreasonable ?

Mr Alan

Buy Mascherano, the 17million figure is not accurate. Its a guess-timate by the media.

Even if it was accurate, i'd still buy him.

Chong

What more can you say Tusky , a good honest summary of it all fair play.

Tusky

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Just out of intrest how much did he cost? (Skrtel that is, forgot to quote Tusky)

And another question, what do you lot feel about Mascherano, buy him? Or use the 17mil on a crisis point (Winger/Striker)?

Skrtel was 6.5m, highest we ever paid for a defender. I think we should use the 10-12m from the sale of Sissoko to buy Mascherano. The 17m is widely rumored to include wages.

We should have enough cash during the summer, funded by sales of the likes of Riise, a winger & striker to buy a couple of pricey attacking players.

jesus_thats_gre

Mr Alan wrote: »

Kryogen: extreme optimism is all i have left

Considering you are bordering on admitting that it is blind optimism, how about you just shut up and stop making bull**** statements and attempting to defend them by shooing people. Christ like.

Mr Alan

Tusky wrote: »

I love Liverpool and have watched every game this season. I hoped that we could be amongst the top 2 or 3 come the end of the season but it hasnt happened and I'm really disappointed. I have faith in Rafa doing good things with Liverpool based on his past successes in Spain the league and with ourselves in cup competitions. I'm not sure if he can win us the league...but im hopeful. Does that sound unreasonable ?

Spot on.

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

But Rafa has bought this decent core squad, a minute ago you said he was ****e in the transfer market!?

http://biawc.110mb.com/

Mr Alan

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Considering you are bordering on admitting that it is blind optimism, how about you just shut up and stop making bull**** statements and attempting to defend them by shooing people. Christ like.

Examples of bull**** statements please.

Helix

Tusky wrote: »

Helix - Can I ask you a question ?

What exactly do you want us to say & what is the point to all this arguing ?

I love Liverpool and have watched every game this season. I hoped that we could be amongst the top 2 or 3 come the end of the season but it hasnt happened and I'm really disappointed. I have faith in Rafa doing good things with Liverpool based on his past successes in the league in Spain & and with ourselves in cup competitions. I'm not sure if he can win us the league...but im hopeful. Does that sound unreasonable ?

its a discussion board, i dont WANT you to say anything

Tusky

Helix wrote: »

http://biawc.110mb.com/

Yup, Liverpool have spent more than a lot of people think. Theres two points I would make on that.

1) Manchester Utd were lucky to get a top top class manager during this period so all their spending has been his. He has bought the players he wanted and the team has evolved and advanced that way. Their successes have reflected this.

In regards to Liverpool. They have constantly changed managers and the spending has been all over the place. Every time a new manager has been brought in they have sold a lot of the players that the previous manager bought...basically shooting the team in the foot.

2) Rafas & Fergusons spending have been fairly similiar although reports vary depending on what site you look at. Some say they have spent around the same while some say that Fergie have spent about 50m more. Its complicated because the likes of Nani, Anderson, Tevez will all cost a lot eventually but its based on performances and will be paid for over a number of seasons.

Although Benitez has spent around the same as Ferguson, he inherited a fairly awful squad and had to use the money to bring in a lot of players. Ferguson has had the luxury of being able to buy handpicked top class players for some time now. There is no way, for example, that Rafa could afford to buy someone like Ferdinand for 30m. It just couldn't happen. So for that reason its a little unfair to compare to two managers spendings.

Helix wrote: »

its a discussion board, i dont WANT you to say anything

What do you expect us/me to say then? You seem to be of the thinking that what we are saying is ridiculous. Or that our point of view is mind boggling. Thats the impression I get from your posts anyway. Liverpool have been playing ****, we are all disappointed, it looks like the squad is missing some attacking talent. Whats to argue about ?

Helix

Tusky wrote: »

What do you expect us/me to say then? You seem to be of the thinking that what we are saying is ridiculous. Or that our point of view is mind boggling. Thats the impression I get from your posts anyway. Liverpool have been playing ****, we are all disappointed, it looks like the squad is missing some attacking talent. Whats to argue about ?

again, its a place for people to give opinions then argue for or against them, thats what makes boards interesting

Tusky

Helix wrote: »

again, its a place for people to give opinions then argue for or against them, thats what makes boards interesting

I disagree

jesus_thats_gre

Mr Alan wrote: »

Examples of bull**** statements please.

The last 4 or 5 pages should provide you with plenty.

Am sure you are a nice guy but you are deluded and make Liverpool fans look like fools.

Mr Alan

i fail to see how i'm deluded, i havent said i think we are gonna win the league still, i have admitted our rivals are better than us currently, i have said our performances as of late are ****e, i have said there is something wrong at the club?!

where is the delusion you speak of, seriously.

zing

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Which is what Benitez should be saying but instead in every interview he blames luck or conditions, its so cleary the players he is buying

In all fairness do you expect him - or any other manager for that matter - to publicly slate his players ? And loose the dressing room in doing so ? Very few managers are likely to come out and state 'We were played off the pitch today' and the ones that would say that are typically the managers of the relegation strugglers or managers of lower league clubs playing the big boys in a cup game.

Must managers of teams that lost or struggled for a draw against 'lesser teams' seem to say fairly similar things - 'we didn't take our chances', 'we didn't create enough', etc.. Most of them will say that bit differently almost every time but Rafa uses largely the same phrases and of course the press & everyone else picks up on it.

Tusky

Keep in mind that Rafas English is not as good as it seems. He uses the same phrases over and over. If you ever read a translated Spanish interview with him he is much more open and talkative.

Jesus Wept

Helix wrote: »

but sure we're being told every single pre season by liverpool fans that the squad is definitely good enough and is going to win the league

:rolleyes:.

That was never the general consensus here.

Every club have some fans that are clueless and blinkered.
So stop listening to teh bandwagon fan who works in the cubicle next to ya, etc, if you are going to continue to take his word
and present it here like it is the gospel of the masses.

And then you wave it in our face as if we are the big feckin ejeets that made such a silly statement?
Keep wagging your finger in our face telling us 'I told ya so!'.
You sound foolish doing it.

Tusky

The-Rigger wrote: »

:rolleyes:.

That was never the general consensus here.

Every club have some fans that are clueless and blinkered.
So stop listening to teh bandwagon fan who works in the cubicle next to ya, etc, if you are going to continue to take his word
and present it here like it is the gospel of the masses.

And then you wave it in our face as if we are the big feckin ejeets that made such a silly statement?
Keep wagging your finger in our face telling us 'I told ya so!'.
You sound foolish doing it.

Well said. The general consensus on this forum at the start of the league was that, having bought well in the summer Liverpool could bridge some of the 20 odd point gap of last year. Most said they would be happy to be there or there abouts at the end of the season rather than being out of the running by Christmas. I don't remember anyone saying 'we are going to win the league'.

mada999

Our form is really really poor at the moment. Some players are just not doing it on the pitch.

As I said before, there are about 5/6 players who need to be culled. Then with the money that comes in we need to buy established, quality players - no more of these "stop-gap" players.

At the moment we actually have no width what so ever in midfield. It seems we always have to pass the ball back to the defense because no-one is making a run (or hoof it up Torres) down the wing. It got a little better when Babel came on but I think his touch isn't great, I hope he will turn into a better player next season.

I don't think Rafa should be sacked but I think he needs to pick the best team at his disposal for awhile to get us out of this rut!

Attractive Nun

In a very vague and possibly inaccurate way (primarily with the help of wikipedia) I'd just like to point out the following:-

Looking at the United team that started against Newcastle today- Wayne Rooney, Carlos Tevez, Michael Carrick, Anderson, Nemanja Vidic, Patrice Evra, Edwin Van Der Sar and Danny Simpson (total: 8/11) have all been signed since Benitez took charge of Liverpool.

Looking at the Arsenal team- Eduardo da Silva, Emmanuel Adebayor, Alexander Hleb, Theo Walcott, Mathieu Flamini, William Gallas, Bacary Sagna and Manuel Almunia (total: 8/10) have all been signed since Benitez took charge of Liverpool. The remaining three - Clichy, Fabregas and Senderos - were nowhere near the first team.

Looking at the Chelsea team- Claudio Pizarro, Shaun Wright-Phillips, Michael Ballack, Florent Malouda, Ashley Cole, Ricardo Carvalho, Alex and Juliano Belletti (total: 8/10) have all been signed since Benitez took charge of Liverpoool


Looking at the Liverpool team- Fernando Torres, Andriy Voronin, Yossi Benayoun, Javier Mascherano, Alvaro Arbeloa and Jose Reina (total: 6/10) have all been signed since Benitez took charge of Liverpool.

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Granted, today was probably a bad day for Liverpool to take this test. And it is certainly easier for managers who have had as much time as Fergie and Wenger to buy players, since they have been building their teams' styles of play for years, plus Chelsea are just weird. But, even counting that, I think it's worth bearing in mind that Rafa hasn't been burdened with having to build a new team from scratch as badly as some here seem to suggest. Since he has been at Liverpool, Wenger has built an almost entirely new squad, Ferguson has replaced most of his older players, and Chelsea have bought about 4 squads of players. Given that Benitez has spent way less than Arsenal and about the same as United, his squad and first team should be much closer in terms of quality than it is.

I think he's a very good manager, but he definitely needs to be doing better. A lot better.

yayamark

mada999 wrote: »

Our form is really really poor at the moment. Some players are just not doing it on the pitch.

As I said before, there are about 5/6 players who need to be culled. Then with the money that comes in we need to buy established, quality players - no more of these "stop-gap" players.

At the moment we actually have no width what so ever in midfield. It seems we always have to pass the ball back to the defense because no-one is making a run (or hoof it up Torres) down the wing. It got a little better when Babel came on but I think his touch isn't great, I hope he will turn into a better player next season.

I don't think Rafa should be sacked but I think he needs to pick the best team at his disposal for awhile to get us out of this rut!

i agree but that would make sense and as much as i do respect rafa for all his achievements why wont he put out the best team from now until the end of the season **** giving players a rest cementing a top four finish is vital to liverpool

Mr Alan

Liverpools first choice 11 imo

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Reina

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Finnan----Agger--Carra---Arbeloa

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Gerrard--Mascher

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Pennant

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????*

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Kuyt----Torres

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????* between Riise/Kewell/Babel/Benayoun/Aurelio...three are Rafa buys, two arent

excluding left wing. its three out of ten of the outfield positions are players that were there before Rafa came. I think that Rafa deserves a lot of credit for turning Carra into the player he is too, unless i have my times wrong, Carra wasnt really regarded as a centre half until Rafa arrived.

Attractive Nun, whats worth noting is the players the Liverpool were unable to sign.

Anytime we wanted a top player, we would be comfortably out-bid or couldnt afford the asking price.

Tusky

Rafa has had bids turned down for Ronaldo, Vidic, Querema, Mancini, Malouda, Simao & many others. I think hes a pretty good spotter of talent.

I'd go for this Mr.Alan

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Reina

Finnan--Carragher--Agger--Arbeloa

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Mascherano--Alonso

Benayoun

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Gerrard

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Babel

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Torres

Take note that Gerrard is NOT playing a in the hole behind Torres. I dont like him playing as a second striker. In this team he has a free role to roam. You could even put Gerrard on the right, have Babel in Gerrards central position and put Kewell on the left.

If its a 4-4-2

Gerrard--Mascherano--Alonso--Kewell

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Babel

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Torres

tibor

Tusky wrote: »

The fact is, the players at the club now are better than the result we have been getting.

Bingo!
The players just aren't performing, they aren't playing with the sense of motivation and passion that's expected(and needed), and the more I see it game after game there's nowhere to point the finger but the man in charge...

Attractive Nun

Yeah that's fair enough, going on the 'first team' is a better test.

To look to the other top 4 teams' best XIs this season-

Arsenal probably only have Kolo Toure, Fabregas and Clichy from summer 2004. Afaik, only Toure would have been a first team player, at right back probably. (max 3)

United have a good few: Brown, Ferdinand, Ronaldo and Giggs, plus Scholes though he has missed a lot of this season. (5)

Chelsea have Cech, Terry, Lampard and maybe Joe Cole. (max 4)

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So ok Benitez is in a slightly less favourable position there, but not hugely.

Your point about not being able to sign the players he wanted to build his team is a good one. Chelsea certainly have not had that problem, Arsenal probably haven't really encountered it, given the type of players Wenger usually signs. United have had problems with this, but not to the same extent granted. Still, not being able to sign players is part of management, and surely it's an open question whether Rafa's response to this (i.e. give up, and just sign unsuitable, average players instead) is the best way to deal with this.

It's easy to look at the details and obscure the overall picture, but fundamentally I think it has to be asked, if Liverpool can spend as much money as anyone else in the Prem (bar Ambramovic), but still end up with deadwood players, how come Bolton can sign Anelka, and Tottenham can sign Berbatov, and Man City can sign Elano and Petrov? There are deals to be done on any budget, and although it might not be as easy for him as it is for Fergie or Avram/Mourinho, I think Benitez should be doing better to find them than he is.


EDIT: Also, you're probably right to give credit to Rafa for improving Carragher. I'd say the same of Gerrard and even Finnan. But, that being so, what the hell has he done to Riise?? He must hav done something to get on his bad side

Mr Alan

Also worth considering that Arsenal and Utd were adding to PL winning squads as well.

Rafa was re-building a squad not good enough to win the PL

Mr Alan

Tusky wrote: »

I'd go for this Mr.Alan

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Reina

Finnan--Carragher--Agger--Arbeloa

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Mascherano--Alonso

Benayoun

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Gerrard

---

Babel

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Torres

Take note that Gerrard is NOT playing a in the hole behind Torres. I dont like him playing as a second striker. In this team he has a free role to roam. You could even put Gerrard on the right, have Babel in Gerrards central position and put Kewell on the left.

If its a 4-4-2

Gerrard--Mascherano--Alonso--Kewell

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Babel

---

Torres

i'd actually agree with both those teams, i was putting down wat i reckon Rafa thinks his first choice is.

Stky10

Tusky wrote: »

Rafa has had bids turned down for Ronaldo, Vidic, Querema, Mancini, Malouda, Simao & many others. I think hes a pretty good spotter of talent.

Ronaldo would have been during Houllier's days...

Malouda just preferred Chelsea... no biggy

Saw an article a few weeks ago with Benitez and Macia (chief scout), where they detailed how they've got probably the biggest scouting network of any club in the world setup, with about 80 main scouts worldwide, and then part-time scouts/advisers as well, and they're maintaining a db of the progress of up to 10000 players worldwide rangeing from 15 year olds, up to established internationals.

Feck all use though if they don't have the money to back it up to go with their choices. They've bought lots of kids at youth level, and they are really strong there, but its going to take years more for that to make it through to first team level. Although I think the likes of Voronin and Kuyt should be shown the door, and some of the kids given their chance.

Attractive Nun

Mr Alan wrote: »

Also worth considering that Arsenal and Utd were adding to PL winning squads as well.

Rafa was re-building a squad not good enough to win the PL

So? Like I've just shown, the players left at Liverpool, Arsenal and United are - to a similar extent - players bought since 2004. Ferguson, Wenger and Benitez, in this period, have brought in new players in a similar number of positions - in all cases the majority of positions. Given that they had similar amounts of money to spend (and ignoring the particular difficulties Benitez had), they should now have teams of similar ability.

The fact that Ferguson had to replace better players than Benitez is irrelevant now, three seasons on. It would be relevant if the players L'pool were left with weren't good enough, but those players are Gerrard, Carragher and Finnan - good players. Fact is most of Liverpool's 'problem positions' are positions that Rafa has already attempted to deal with in the transfer market.

GBX

Attractive Nun wrote: »

But, that being so, what the hell has he done to Riise?? He must hav done something to get on his bad side

Maybe it was Rafa who leaked his payslip to the interweb

_blank_

Tusky wrote: »

Torres - 11


Voronin - 12 apperances, 3 goals
Kuyt - 17 apperances, 3 goals (not including set pieces he has 1 from 17...)
Crouch - 11 apperances(only 4 starts), 0 goals.

So in total between them. 40 apperances 10 goals. Not good enough. Not even nearly good enough.

All Rafa buys yeah?

This is where he has fallen down imo. These players may prove to be capable of going far in the CL, fair enough, but they can't cut it at EPL level.

Rafa bought them in, Rafa takes ultimate responsibility when they fail.

Mr Alan wrote: »

Liverpool are better than Villa and Portsmouth,

Are they?

Villa - no, same points in the table. The table doesn't lie. Game in hand isn't a given.

Pompey - OK, five points better off, but what about Everton and City, same points total, plus the goals of Torres.

Mr Alan wrote: »

our league performances for years and years have shown that.

Serious?

What happened in previous seasons has a bearing on this one? That's a new one on me tbh.

Mr Alan wrote: »

We should be doing better with our home form because thats the way we have been for years, anfield is usually a fortress, this year for some reason, its not.

Because the players either

a. aren't good enough
b. aren't playing to their potential, which, ultimately, is down to the manager.

Nice to see you're still up fighting the good fight btw