Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

prendy

I didnt see the game last night but from all the reports iv seen it was a decent performance.

However...
its a pity we had to bring out the big guns for such a tie though.
If the game game 6 weeks ago our reserves would have disposed of them.
For me last night showed just how much we rely on gerrard. I thought last night would have been a good game to blood the younger players with just half the senior team necessary.
It looks like a safe passage to the next round aswell the way the draw has been.
hopefully we can get the shooting boots on in the league now and close the gap to chelsea over the next few weeks. I just feel if we could get momentum like we had before the utd game then we'll be hard to beat again.


It was nice to see the praise heaped on carra...no more deserving player.
that article posted was a good read for one of the all time anfield greats.

mike65

spockety that does'nt mean he can't be a troll. Read RAWK.

God knows I'm not Mr Alan in the Ra-Ra Rafa stakes but if the only reason to post is to be contrary its best not to bother. Liverpool needed a 5-0 nil type result last night and got it. Sure it might have been 10 if the first half had been a fraction more clinical but hell any good win is a good win right now.

Also if people don't speak to the press they can't be strung up by thier own words.

Just saw this

http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/premier-league/article3342139.ece

A dispute between Liverpool's American owners and the club's board over whether to laden the club with massive debts has cast fresh doubt over Tom Hicks and George Gillett's future at Anfield as new rumours circulated yesterday that they have agreed a deal to sell up.

One source, a major football financier, claimed last night that Hicks and Gillett had agreed a deal in principle to sell the club, which they co-own, for £350m, and that a process of due diligence was under way.

The potential buyers most consistently linked with Liverpool in recent months are Dubai International Capital, an investment vehicle ultimately controlled by Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al-Maktoum, one of the world's richest men. DIC came close to buying Liverpool a year ago and are certainly still circling, although the source suggested that a different investor – or partnership – might be behind the £350m bid. A DIC spokeswoman said: "We can only say 'no comment' at this stage."

Insiders at Liverpool denied a deal had been concluded with DIC, or that any due diligence was underway. Equally, both Hicks and the club maintain in private that Hicks, at least, is an unwilling seller, to anyone, at the moment.

However, a senior source at Liverpool told The Independent that "it is difficult to say categorically what is going on" and it is understood there is a growing schism between the board – which is trying to run the club on a day-to-day basis – and the owners.

Mike.

Mr Alan

DesF wrote: »

What's the story with no daytime posting?

PMd you back btw.

Just busy in work lately is all.

Got the PM and money is on its way.

Now! back to work

RE*AC*TOR

All I can say is, I hope to fúck this is true.

From today's London Independent:

Liverpool debt dispute forces Americans to consider sale
By Nick Harris and Jason Burt
Published: 16 January 2008

A dispute between Liverpool's American owners and the club's board over whether to laden the club with massive debts has cast fresh doubt over Tom Hicks and George Gillett's future at Anfield as new rumours circulated yesterday that they have agreed a deal to sell up.

One source, a major football financier, claimed last night that Hicks and Gillett had agreed a deal in principle to sell the club, which they co-own, for £350m, and that a process of due diligence was under way.

The potential buyers most consistently linked with Liverpool in recent months are Dubai International Capital, an investment vehicle ultimately controlled by Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al-Maktoum, one of the world's richest men. DIC came close to buying Liverpool a year ago and are certainly still circling, although the source suggested that a different investor – or partnership – might be behind the £350m bid. A DIC spokeswoman said: "We can only say 'no comment' at this stage."

Insiders at Liverpool denied a deal had been concluded with DIC, or that any due diligence was underway. Equally, both Hicks and the club maintain in private that Hicks, at least, is an unwilling seller, to anyone, at the moment.

However, a senior source at Liverpool told The Independent that "it is difficult to say categorically what is going on" and it is understood there is a growing schism between the board – which is trying to run the club on a day-to-day basis – and the owners.

The source of this rift is money, specifically a divergence of opinion about how Hicks and Gillett will restructure their finances. When they bought Liverpool last year, they paid for the club entirely with borrowed money, in the form of a £270m loan from the Royal Bank of Scotland. Of that, £174.1m was spent on equity, £44.8m on pre-existing debt, and the balance on working capital. The RBS loan is due to be repaid next month.

The Americans' representatives insist they are close to securing a new £350m loan, most of which will clear their first loan, with the rest spent on initial outlay on the proposed new stadium. The businessmen want to put the new debt directly on to Liverpool's books, guaranteed, crucially, against club assets, not their own.

Contrary to reports, the so-called "global credit crunch" has not been a significant factor in delaying a new loan. Rather, according to a well-placed source, "the very significant block" to the Americans' borrowing plans has been the board's opposition to heaping that debt on the club.

When Hicks and Gillett took over, they made much of the fact, referring to events at Manchester United two years beforehand, that theirs would not be a "Glazer-style" takeover, with the club potentially imperilled by debt set against its assets. Now, it seems, that is exactly what they were planning. Neither has spent any of their own cash yet. Unless they guarantee the new loans with their own money – which they may be unwilling or unable to provide – the impasse will continue.

In that sense, a buyer offering them £350m for their 100 per cent stake could well be attractive. It would allow them to repay their £270m RBS loan and walk away with an £80m profit between them after just a year's involvement. Yet as recently as last autumn, they were valuing the club at an extraordinary £1bn, a figure unrelated to financial reality.

Hicks and Gillett's relationship with the board is rapidly becoming as fractious as that with their manager, Rafa Benitez, upon whom they heaped huge embarrassment on Monday when Hicks revealed he had interviewed Jürgen Klinsmann in November as a stand-by candidate for Benitez's job.

"You might be able to make a case that they let Rafa know this had happened," said one exasperated Liverpool source. "But what on earth Hicks thought he would achieve by telling the world is beyond anyone."

Until the Americans have either resolved their financing problems or sold the club, plans for the new stadium, like Benitez's future, will remain up in the air.

http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/premier-league/article3342139.ece

PHB

Lads I realise everybody wants to get rid of the yanks, but I can't understand why people are so willing to jump into bed with another bunch of know-nothing foreigners who see Liverpool as a cash pinata. The only difference is that DIC may or may not, who knows, have different views on who the manager should be, and that they have the money for the stadium. They are still gona do the same thing, in terms of ticket prices, commercialisation etc.

whatawaster

PHB wrote: »

Lads I realise everybody wants to get rid of the yanks, but I can't understand why people are so willing to jump into bed with another bunch of know-nothing foreigners who see Liverpool as a cash pinata. The only difference is that DIC may or may not, who knows, have different views on who the manager should be, and that they have the money for the stadium. They are still gona do the same thing, in terms of ticket prices, commercialisation etc.

To be honest, a bit of commercialism is what Liverpool need. We're light years behind United in that regard.

But I just want someone to come in, back Rafa like the vast majority of fans want, and buy us Benzema, Quaresma and Silva. Is that too much to ask? Even one of them would be absolutely lovely.

tibor

Cyrus wrote: »

tibor, is your goal in life to troll this thread,

Yes, it's what gets me through the day.
:rolleyes:

tibor

mike65 wrote: »

spockety that does'nt mean he can't be a troll. Read RAWK.

God knows I'm not Mr Alan in the Ra-Ra Rafa stakes but if the only reason to post is to be contrary its best not to bother.

Seriously, is this what you all want?
A thread where it's post something positive about Liverpool or nothing at all?
If this is the case I'll gladly stop posting in ImaginationLand...

FFS, can't belive I'm agreeing with the Manc fans, but you guys are deluded.

PHB

Lads for anybody calling somebody a troll, have a look at this post:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=54747002#post54747002
If you have a problem, report it. If you continue to call people trolls for disagreeing with you, you will be banned.

---

Commercialisation is a two-edged sword. Increased ticket prices, a desire to push out hard core fans, a desire to push out standing in any parts of the stadium, lower transfer budgets [Uniteds net spend in the last 3 years is about 30 million]
It's possible to be a well run club without going for foreign investment.

RE*AC*TOR

Liverpool need a new stadium, owners who aren't constantly embarrassing themselves and the club, and are willing to finance players when necessary.

G&H have invested sweet fúck all of their own money. The signings made in the summer were balanced by the sales and the CL run. Most likely if Moores was still chairman it would've been the same.

The Novemeber debacle centered around Benitez trying to sign players on a free, or selling to buy.

G&H (especially H) have shown they fundamentally don't understand a thing about Liverpool Football Club. DIC, while being another pig in a bag, certainly have much more financial clout, certainly seem to have a much better management structure, and if the cost of that is increased ticket prices and commercialisation, while not ideal, is better than the current situation.

If DIC's plan is to make money from Liverpool being successful, then I would hope they would be prepared to spend in order to ensure that happens. G&H don't seem to be willing to do that.

G&H aren't doing anything that Moores couldn't have done. They're plan apparently was to borrow big against the club's assets. Moores could have done that, but he at least had enough sense to keep the club from being another Leeds.

Its a pity he seems to have sold to the wrong people.

PHB

Absolutely, but you gotta ask the question is it worth it? DIC will come in and invest in the new stadium, but as for significant transfer investments, I'm not sure you'll see a huge difference between them and the current owners. They are after all business men, they won't drop 50 million on new players unless it gives them a significant advantage

raven136

PHB wrote: »

Lads I realise everybody wants to get rid of the yanks, but I can't understand why people are so willing to jump into bed with another bunch of know-nothing foreigners who see Liverpool as a cash pinata. The only difference is that DIC may or may not, who knows, have different views on who the manager should be, and that they have the money for the stadium. They are still gona do the same thing, in terms of ticket prices, commercialisation etc.

the difference with this crowd is that they have actual real cash money and are well known for wanting to be the best at what they do,example being their ongoing battle with ballydoyle to be horseracing's number one.They also are adept at decent pr unlike hicks.The sheikh gave money both to kildare gaa and the racecourse as a way of appeasing people when they first set up in the Curragh.Basically it comes down to the fact that hicks and gillet seem to have no money and havent put a penny of their own cash in.This could be a financial disaster for pool and something must be done.

What i dont understand is why moores choose hicks over dic in the first place,surely the better bet was the group with the most money.Anyway for whatever reason this takeover has not worked and something must be done farily soon.

Mr Alan

Torres has proved that spending money is worth it.

As has been pointed out, with the increased television money and CL run last year, there hasnt really been any signifigant investment by the americans into the playing team. Torres is the only one you could really call that and he has shown that class and not quantity are the way to go.

The yanks, when they arrived said that we would be competing with Utd and Chelsea for the top players available....doesnt seem that way at all, rafa is having difficulty getting the go ahead to sign players even at little money or frees! Berbatov could be available in the summer, but yet its only Utd and Chelsea whos names are mentioned with him, we need to be in for players that are that good and available.

Another plus for DIC for me is the fact that the Sheikhs right hand man, who would effectively be facing/managing this take-over, is a proper liverpool fan and has travelled over to Anfield since the 70s. Even when they lost out on their initial bid, in his statement he said how disappointed he was but that he would still be there at matches regularly. He would have more of an idea about the way Liverpool should be run than the yanks seem to have.

this is more important than the manager, even if DIC got rid of Rafa a while after they came in (which i dont think they would), i still think it would be a better move for the club.

zing

We need to remember to distinguish between DIC and any of al-Maktoum's other sporting interests (horses, etc..). A take over of LFC by DIC would not put it in the same financial position as those other sporting interests as they are his personal investments/interests.

DIC is an investment firm controller by another company which is probably controlled by another company and so on which is ultimately controlled by him as head of state - i.e. it's many levels removed from him and he probably has zero involvement in any of it's dealings. DIC may have deep pockets and it may ultimately be his money by virtue of the fact that it's state money but he won't personally be throwing 50m at the club to sign a player the way Abramovich does.

Many think Moores sold out for the cash but I don't believe that - he loves the club too much so I think he thought he was placing the clubs in the hands of genuine sports fans (albeit not reds) rather than having it as just another brand on a list owned by an investment firm.

_blank_

Mr Alan wrote: »

Berbatov could be available in the summer, but yet its only Utd and Chelsea whos names are mentioned with him, we need to be in for players that are that good and available.

Are you really that naive Alan, I don't think you are.

Just because there aren't stories every second linking a certain club with a certain player doesn't mean that club isn't "in for" that player.

Remember Juan Veron signed for Utd? No-one knew a peep about it in the papers/Sjy Sports news etc etc, until it was a done deal.

Thing is, you just don't know who the manager is looking at, or what deals are lined up.

Tusky

DesF wrote: »

Are you really that naive Alan, I don't think you are.

Just because there aren't stories every second linking a certain club with a certain player doesn't mean that club isn't "in for" that player.

Remember Juan Veron signed for Utd? No-one knew a peep about it in the papers/Sjy Sports news etc etc, until it was a done deal.

Thing is, you just don't know who the manager is looking at, or what deals are lined up.

Very true. We found out about Babel about 2 days before he signed. I'm sure Liverpool will have around 20m to spend in the summer. With players being sold that figure should rise to around 40m which is more than enough to bring in some talent. I would bet that Sissoko, Carson, Riise, a winger & a striker wont be here next season.

Mr Alan

DesF wrote: »

Are you really that naive Alan, I don't think you are.

Just because there aren't stories every second linking a certain club with a certain player doesn't mean that club isn't "in for" that player.

Remember Juan Veron signed for Utd? No-one knew a peep about it in the papers/Sjy Sports news etc etc, until it was a done deal.

Thing is, you just don't know who the manager is looking at, or what deals are lined up.

No i'm not Des, the point i was getting at with that, which i probably didnt articulate right is that, berbatov is the calibre of player we should be aiming to attract, no more Voronins/Kuyts/Benayouns etc.

I dont believe that Utd or Chelsea were actually in for Berbatov this window, despite the stories, i simply mean that they were written about cause everyoe knows they could afford to buy him and offer trophies and europe, which we can also offer, but no one even specualted that we could be in for him because it was downright implausible/non believable that we could afford a player of that quality in the jan transfer window. I thought those days were in the past. the yanks wouldnt sanction a free transfer for Rafa, yet alone 25million for a striker.

I aint expecting liverpool to "buy" success, but when a quality player becomes available in a position that we require, we should be in for him, at least attempting to sign him.

Mascherano is being monitored the top clubs in Europe, THIS is the calibre of player we need to keep. Likewise, if Rafa walks or is sacked, he'll walk into almost of the top jobs in european football....cant afford to turn our noses up at such gifted players/managers, if we can afford em, lets get em/keep em.

I dont think the yanks can afford em.
DIC can (plus they are fronted by a Kopite! )

yom 1

Tusky wrote: »

I would bet that Sissoko, Carson, Riise, a winger & a striker wont be here next season.

Problem is how many replacements are going to be stop gaps ala Bellamy and how many are going to be of genuine quality like Torres?

PHB

Liverpools net spend last summer was about 25 million last year. I'd be actually shocked, like gobsmacked, if DIC went above that significantly.

G&H based their takeover plan on two things:
A. Make enough money to pay off the debt the took on for the takeover
B. Build a new stadium in order to increase the value of Liverpool massively.

Once the debt was paid off, and the stadium was built, Liverpool would massively jump in value, they would sell, and they'd be happy.

DIC's business plan has the benefit of not being based on debt.
However, they are now gona have to pay quite a bit more in order to buy the club, as G&H will want to make a tidy profit.

They will build a new stadium, and with the increased profits pay it off, then probably sell it on. Simple business.

There is no good business reason for them investing more than 25 million or so net spend into the club. 50 million might make the difference, it might, but it might not, and if it doesn't, that's 25 million down the drain. 25 million will ensure progression, but not at a huge cost, and will ensure CL qualification which is where the money is at.

Ultimately DIC are gona be business men, so they aren't gona be somebody like Ambrovomich. The advantages of them are that they won't have a loan problem, and that they won't be trying to fire Rafa (as far as we know)

That's an improvement, but they still are gona be run like a business, and will try to suck the fans dry, just like the Glaziers have done.

prendy

We need to remember to distinguish between DIC and any of al-Maktoum's other sporting interests (horses, etc..). A take over of LFC by DIC would not put it in the same financial position as those other sporting interests as they are his personal investments/interests

well said...DIC is not the same as the racing operation.
the fact is its an investment organisation with the sole goal of making money.

al mactoum(spelling) has a serious interest in horses and wants to be recognised for that. he ploughs massive sums in to ensure that.

If like Abromivich he takes LFC as a hobby...like his horses we would be in far better shape but DIC as an investment company will be out to make money.

_blank_

Mr Alan wrote: »

the yanks wouldnt sanction a free transfer for Rafa, yet alone 25million for a striker.

"The Yanks" obviously, imo, want rid of Rafa.

They won't sanction transfers, because what if the new man comes in, and decides the £25m player rafa bought is surplus to his requirements.

What if he wants another £25m, but the owners say "nope, Rafa spent that already". A new man wouldn't come in if that happened.

You see, I think Liverpool fans need to accept that Rafa won't be the manager for much longer, especially if the current owners remain the current owners.

With that in mind, I think any transfer activity will be frozen, unless Masch can be tied up, but even that isn't really 100% is it? The transfer activity will be frozen until Rafa is gone, and the new man is in place.

whatawaster

If DIC do come in and I hope they do, then surely it is in their interests to Keep Rafa and keep stability at the club. For all his perceived failings and despite the talk on these and other boards, with Rafa you're pretty much guaranteed a top 4 finish each year, and I think if he's given 25 million net to spend each summer (prob at least 40m gross) then he should be happy and able to pick up two top class players each year and maybe even a squad player if needed.

As PHB said, all the money is in the CL, i'm no expert but i'd imagine the jump in money from 1st in the prem to 4th isn't that huge. That's why I think Sacking Rafa would make so little business sense IMO

mike65

Re DesF

I suspect that is the case bar self-finanacing transfers. I still expect Sissoko and Riise to go and hopefully Villa be willing to cough-up for Carson now not in the summer.

Mike.

whatawaster

DesF wrote: »

"The Yanks" obviously, imo, want rid of Rafa.

They won't sanction transfers, because what if the new man comes in, and decides the £25m player rafa bought is surplus to his requirements.

What if he wants another £25m, but the owners say "nope, Rafa spent that already". A new man wouldn't come in if that happened.

You see, I think Liverpool fans need to accept that Rafa won't be the manager for much longer, especially if the current owners remain the current owners.

With that in mind, I think any transfer activity will be frozen, unless Masch can be tied up, but even that isn't really 100% is it? The transfer activity will be frozen until Rafa is gone, and the new man is in place.

why then would they allow Rafa to spend record amounts on a defender. None of this makes sense. I agree with you that there is a good chance Rafa won't be there next year under the current regime, but a decision obviously hasn't been made or else there is no way they would have sanctioned that transfer.

Mr Alan

Everyone who buys a club is gonna run it like a business.

Even Abramovich to an extent. He sacked jose for not getting the required results for the amount he has spent and he has curbed his spending in a massive way. BUT if a world class player becomes available, Chelsea can afford to buy em, as can the mancs, we need to be in the same bracket.

Question do you want one of the worlds most rich and succesful business' or the yanks.

DIC please.

whatawaster

mike65 wrote: »

Re DesF

I suspect that is the case bar self-finanacing transfers. I still expect Sissoko and Riise to go and hopefully Villa be willing to cough-up for Carson now not in the summer.

Mike.

but if a new man was definitely coming in would Rafa be allowed to sell Riise or Sissoko. What if the new manager liked Sissoko or Riise (don't laugh)?

yom 1

PHB wrote: »

...[Uniteds net spend in the last 3 years is about 30 million]
It's possible to be a well run club without going for foreign investment.

This from a fan of a club owned by foreign investors!

spockety

If transfer activity has been frozen due to Rafa being led to the slaughter, can you explain the signing of Skrtel?

J.

whatawaster

spockety wrote: »

If transfer activity has been frozen due to Rafa being led to the slaughter, can you explain the signing of Skrtel?

J.

It doesn't make sense. Just like a wookie like Chewbacca living on Endor.

PHB

yom 1 wrote: »

This from a fan of a club owned by foreign investors!

You'd be surprised to learn that I don't think that the way United is currently run is the way to go.

As for the explanation for Skrtel, I think it makes fine sense. Liverpool needed CB cover, even Gill and Hicks can see that. Rafa has shown he has the ability to buy top quality defensive players. Indeed all of the bad transfers that people talk about, Morientes Bellamy etc tend to be attacking players. 6.5 million for a defender that everybody knows they need isn't evidence of support from the owners. Like, Hyypia and Carragher have been relied on for too long. Agger was out injured. Liverpool are in danger of not qualifying for the CL, (as in they are not currently significantly ahead of the chasing pack) with a defensive injury to Carragher or Hyypia, Liverpool could slip down the table. This is a business decision, they don't want to risk not qualifying for the CL, and with this singing, they've pretty much ensured their defence will be good enough.

The purchase of Mascherano or a quality striker/winger of Rafa's choosing would be that.

spockety

very well thought out article in todays Times...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/martin_samuel/article3193659.ece

January 16, 2008

Hope in your heart? Not when axe falls on Rafael Benitez
Martin Samuel

As revolutions go, the one conducted by Captain Valentine Strasser in Sierra Leone in 1992 was pretty damn funky. After he seized control from the 23-year dictatorship of the All People Congress led by Major General Joseph Momoh, Strasser intended to make the disco classic Ain’t No Stopping Us Now by McFadden and Whitehead the new national anthem.

You do that sort of thing when you are 25 and the youngest head of state in the world. It’s a bit like getting your best mate to be your deputy, which Strasser did, too. The regime lasted about four years. Strasser’s party, the National Provisional Ruling Council, proved no more adept at dealing with guerrillas from the Revolutionary United Front than the previous government and large swaths of the country, including the crucial diamond reserves, fell into enemy hands.

Strasser also developed a penchant for executing opponents – 26 of them after trial – and even though he was deposed more than a decade ago, many, including Amnesty International, want him brought to justice for alleged crimes ranging from torture to arbitrary killing. He is relatively harmless now and has more recently been found living back home with his mum. He recently claimed to have been beaten up outside a London Tube station in a racially motivated attack.

What unfolded at Liverpool these past three years has not, of course, been a revolution but a Rafalution, yet has followed much the same path. It was launched to a trumpet blast of unshakeable optimism, looked at first to have swept away the canker of a failing old regime and is surely destined to end in chaos, with blood up the walls.

Related Links
Kop and Gerrard boost Benitez
Liverpool’s lurch from champions of Europe to Hicksville, USA, is another chapter in the book called “How Not to Run a Football Club”, which started off as a slender paperback but must now stretch to the size of a full set of Encyclopaedia Britannica. It contains volumes on Leicester City, Coventry City, both Sheffield clubs, large stretches of Wales, East Anglia, South London, Kent and the South Coast, plus dear old Newcastle United, Leeds United and what remains of Luton Town. Liverpool is a tentative addition, but under the present ownership it will surely one day get a sizeable entry of its own.

The departure of Rafael BenÍtez appears no longer a matter of if, but when, his only hope of survival being that the owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett Jr, beat him to the door. And if BenÍtez goes, the club goes with him. Not the name or the history; there will still be a Liverpool Football Club and they will still play in red at Anfield, in the short term at least. But the philosophy that has defined the past four seasons, the way the club has been managed, the squad that has been constructed, the methods on which a fifth European Cup win, and almost a sixth, were built, would all have to be redesigned.

Liverpool are showing what can happen if the Arsène Wenger battle plan is allowed to go off at halfcock. It is a mess and it could set the club back years.

The board at Arsenal has had two brilliant ideas in the past 12 years. The first was to appoint Wenger, the second to empower him for far longer than the average managerial lifespan. If a man is being allowed to restructure a club from the foundations up, it’s always sensible to bow to his vision, otherwise what is the point?

The key to success at Arsenal was that, having given Wenger a form of executive power that far exceeded his status as an employee, the directors did not fear that he would abuse his freedom. Wenger tore down what Arsenal was and created something new based on his philosophies. Had he been blocked at any turn it could have been disastrous. At the height of his revolution when his captain was French and all his best players were French, Manchester Untied remained in the ascendancy and there were occasional rumours that Englishmen at Arsenal felt neglected or ostracised, there must have been a small temptation to reclaim some control. There would surely have been whispers in the boardroom, fledgeling conspiracies to curtail his transfer policy, his vision of a cosmopolitan academy, to return Arsenal to its preFrancophile traditions.

If there was, it was never realised. To oppose Wenger would be to risk losing him and the directors sensibly accepted that this could precipitate a departure of half the first-team squad and the destruction of all the club had become. So the board continued to back the manager as he restructured the training ground and even allowed him a measure of control over the new stadium, although he met them halfway by agreeing to it in the first place.

And now the vision nears completion. The first team at Arsenal is still a melting pot of nationalities, but the next generation of Arsenal youth players are exciting and largely home-grown. It has taken more than a decade and even when Wenger leaves, his values will endure. It will be expected that Arsenal retain a level of creative flair; players who possess that talent will be appreciated there. He has changed the culture of a football club; more importantly, he was encouraged to do so.

A catastrophe is brewing at Liverpool because the club, having given BenÍtez his head for the best part of four seasons, is about to switch riders midway through the race. If BenÍtez is forced out now, he takes modern Liverpool with him and leaves a crumbling shell. He is the glue that keeps the club together and, without him, it will have to be rebuilt.

He has been permitted to turn Liverpool into a Spanish colony that without him will not make sense. Just as Arsenal’s squad owed its shape and character to Wenger, so a number of significant players at Liverpool would be lost without BenÍtez. Take Javier Mascherano. Does anybody seriously believe that after the laughable way he was treated at West Ham United, he would have remained a second longer in Premier League football had it not been for a coach who could communicate in his mother tongue?

A natural parting of the ways is looming and it begins the moment BenÍtez hits the road. The biggest clubs in Spain would certainly make Fernando Torres a target as well as just about any of BenÍtez’s imports from his homeland, not least Xabi Alonso, José Manuel Reina and Álvaro Arbeloa. The nucleus of Liverpool’s first team would be under threat because BenÍtez had been allowed to exercise his personality so thoroughly.

Hicks and Gillett have to appreciate what is at stake. It could be argued that the equally mesmeric José Mourinho left Chelsea and the ship sailed on, but Mourinho’s personnel were not as plainly rooted in national identity. He imported two defenders from Portugal, Paulo Ferreira and Ricardo Carvalho, one of whom was not always in his best team. His backroom staff were loyalists, but his assistant coach was a longstanding club servant, Steve Clarke.

Mourinho’s greatest influence was on the pitch, with his pattern of play. For all his pride in his native land, the red and green of Portugal never flew over Stamford Bridge. BenÍtez is different. He has placed Liverpool under Spanish influence, the way Wenger made Arsenal a French club according to players such as Tony Adams, and that is increasingly the modern way.

It is not just the first team at Liverpool that has been overhauled by BenÍtez. His head of scouting, Eduardo Macia, has worked hard at attracting 20 or so of the best young players from abroad to Liverpool’s academy, a mid-range investment that it was hoped would insulate the club against stagnation while the new ground was developed.

What will happen to that plan if its mastermind departs? Indeed, what was going to happen had Hicks got his man in Jürgen Klinsmann? Liverpool were still unbeaten in the Premier League when Liverpool’s owner made contact, yet would he have let the Germans take over this Spanish resort, just as an Iberian culture under BenÍtez had replaced the French influence of Gérard Houllier (in his first season, much of the dead wood removed by BenÍtez consisted of French or French-speaking players introduced by Houllier but barely used), each change beginning with the wholesale rejection of the last.

Every managerial alteration brings upheaval – Roy Hodgson at Fulham is struggling to get to grips with the weaknesses caused by the transfer policies of Lawrie Sanchez – but to lose the vital presence in a revolution as substantial as that taking place at Anfield is to risk a directionless mess.

With clubs such as Manchester City and Aston Villa at last finding their feet under capable managers in Sven-Göran Eriksson and Martin O’Neill, to have their club’s rationale inviting comparison with the military juntas of Sierra Leone is something that Liverpool’s owners can ill-afford.

Raekwon

mike65 wrote: »

hopefully Villa be willing to cough-up for Carson now not in the summer.

Any news on the Carson loan turning into a permanent deal? I think Villa would sign him asap if the price was right (£6m?).

oobydooby

I wish we were not concerned with who owns the club. I don't care about the back-room stuff, it's the team I follow. The behind-the-scenes stuff should stay exactly there. I blame the indescribable tabloids who hoist this crap on us and us for lapping it up and wasting our spare time worrying about it. Some vain owners like RA, Al Fayed, Ken Bates etc have always gotten their 15 minutes by owning a football club but it should be just that - 15 minutes.

If I'm with a new fine thing (analogy from back in my single days) I'm not interested in how her intestines work or how her nasal passage is lined. I'm only concerned that these things run smoothly and I can focus on her essence (i.e. her looks). Liverpool is a beautiful girl with worms at the moment, the voyeurs in the media are obsessed with being up her intestines and some shytehawk is giving them access.

Sorry, I'm raving. These businesses are going to make money from people like us, so why can the fans not own the club. That way if we're buying jerseys etc it's in our own financial interest and we're not lining the pockets of some undesirable intestine-dweller. Or at least give Steve Morgan another look-in! It's our club so why are we talking about these creatures that lurk in its bowels.

Melion

oobydooby wrote: »

If I'm with a new fine thing (analogy from back in my single days) I'm not interested in how her intestines work or how her nasal passage is lined. I'm only concerned that these things run smoothly and I can focus on her essence (i.e. her looks). Liverpool is a beautiful girl with worms at the moment, the voyeurs in the media are obsessed with being up her intestines and some shytehawk is giving them access.

Are you Ian Holloway in disguise?

yom 1

oobydooby wrote: »

I wish we were not concerned with who owns the club. I don't care about the back-room stuff, it's the team I follow. The behind-the-scenes stuff should stay exactly there. I blame the indescribable tabloids who hoist this crap on us and us for lapping it up and wasting our spare time worrying about it. Some vain owners like RA, Al Fayed, Ken Bates etc have always gotten their 15 minutes by owning a football club but it should be just that - 15 minutes.

If I'm with a new fine thing (analogy from back in my single days) I'm not interested in how her intestines work or how her nasal passage is lined. I'm only concerned that these things run smoothly and I can focus on her essence (i.e. her looks). Liverpool is a beautiful girl with worms at the moment, the voyeurs in the media are obsessed with being up her intestines and some shytehawk is giving them access.

Sorry, I'm raving. These businesses are going to make money from people like us, so why can the fans not own the club. That way if we're buying jerseys etc it's in our own financial interest and we're not lining the pockets of some undesirable intestine-dweller. Or at least give Steve Morgan another look-in! It's our club so why are we talking about these creatures that lurk in its bowels.

Ha ha post of the day, you even managed to get Shytehawk into such a well thought out piece!:p

Chardee MacDennis

i'd much rather read stories all day about the club being sold than read about how G&H are tryin to oust Rafa.

The board will never vote for the dismissal of Rafa while G&H future is uncertain. so i think he is safe for a while.

just wish Parry would back Rafa which he hasnt done. But he's probably thinking why rock the boat, at least Rafa can get another job somewhere, Parry is worthless if he gets on the wrong side of the owners. and tbh I for one couldnt care if he left, he is a disgrace with transfers (who goes on holiday the first week of the summer transfer window and to New York on the first week of the Winter transfer window) I have heard we missed out on some good players because of his apparent laxidasical attitude (Vidic for one).

The whole situation is very annoying, just get the yanks out and we can start again with Rafa (i hope)

Tusky

yom 1 wrote: »

Problem is how many replacements are going to be stop gaps ala Bellamy and how many are going to be of genuine quality like Torres?

Well we are getting into football manager territory here but lets say -

The below are guestimates and may well be too high or too low.

Riise - 5m
Sissoko - 10m
Striker - 10m
Winger -5m
Carson - 8m

Total : 38 + 25(transfer kitty) = 63m. That figure seems a bit high to me but I'll continue anyway!

Mascherano - 17m (may well be lower than this)
Striker - 20m
Winger - 18m
CB (that can also play LB) - 7m

Total : 63m

That would obviously be my dream scenario. Will it happen ? Probably not. With the addition of a top class striker to partner Torres, winger and a new LB the team would improve ten fold though. I expect Hyypia to retire after this season or at the very least, take a less involved place in the team. Hopefully Babel can turn into the player that we all hope he can as well.

el rabitos

our aim as a club should be in the top 4 every year until we can get a 70+ thousand seater stadium that has the facilitys to make as much or more on a match day than our rivals.

that means remaining competative until we're in a positition to spend on a par with the other 3.

if we remain competative, then we can win the odd cup, and maybe one year we can nick the premiership with a bit of luck. but for sustained success we need the stadium, that should be the clubs number 1 goal and priority for all future hopes of success.

the kind of success the fans are used to and want is irrelevant to who owns the club right now, unless its a sugar daddy thats going to pump his own money in. but thats not going to happen. a new stadium is what the club needs to sustain itself and to make money for itself, the running of the club and an international brand goes hand in hand with that, but whoever is running the club needs to get that stadium built.

zing

Call_me_al wrote: »

The board will never vote for the dismissal of Rafa while G&H future is uncertain. so i think he is safe for a while.

Seen the board lately ? It comprises of Gillet, Gillet, Hicks, Hicks, Parry & Moores
and you can guarantee that Gillet jnr & Hicks jnr will do whatever daddy tells them to do.

whatawaster

Tusky wrote: »

Well we are getting into football manager territory here but lets say -

The below are guestimates and may well be too high or too low.

Riise - 5m
Sissoko - 10m
Striker - 10m
Winger -5m
Carson - 8m

Total : 38 + 25(transfer kitty) = 63m. That figure seems a bit high to me but I'll continue anyway!

Mascherano - 17m (may well be lower than this)
Striker - 20m
Winger - 18m
CB (that can also play LB) - 7m

Total : 63m

That would obviously be my dream scenario. Will it happen ? Probably not. With the addition of a top class striker to partner Torres, winger and a new LB the team would improve ten fold though. I expect Hyypia to retire after this season or at the very least, take a less involved place in the team. Hopefully Babel can turn into the player that we all hope he can as well.

I'd Sell:

Carson 8m
Crouch 8m
Riise 5m
Sissoko 7m
Voronin 3m
Guthrie 2m


Total 33m
Less Mascherano Fee of (it'll be lower i think) 17m

Total in 16m

Transfer Budget 25m
Total to spend 41m

i'd spend that on a striker in the 15-20m range, same with a winger (must be able to play both sides. With what's left over (5-10m?) i'd buy a LB/CB player and 25 under 17s.

I think our squad would look quite healthy:

---

Reina/Itandje

---

Finnan/Arbeloa

---

Carra/Skrtel

---

Agger/Hyypia

---

Aurelio/New LB

New WG/Pennant

---

Masch/Alonso

---

Gerrard/Lucas----New WG/Kewell

---

Torres/Kuyt

---

Babel/New Str

Melion

Ive said it before but ill go again.
We dont need a DC, especially not now that we've signed Skrtel.
We dont need a left winger, Babel will play there next year.
I think Pennant is a good player, and would be excellent as backup to Silva/Mancini/Quaresma
We dont need a DL, Aurelio and Insua are good enough there.
We do need a striker though.

Tusky

whatawaster wrote: »

I'd Sell:

Carson 8m
Crouch 8m
Riise 5m
Sissoko 7m
Voronin 3m
Guthrie 2m


Total 33m
Less Mascherano Fee of (it'll be lower i think) 17m

Total in 16m

Transfer Budget 25m
Total to spend 41m

i'd spend that on a striker in the 15-20m range, same with a winger (must be able to play both sides. With what's left over (5-10m?) i'd buy a LB/CB player and 25 under 17s.

I think our squad would look quite healthy:

---

Reina/Itandje

---

Finnan/Arbeloa

---

Carra/Skrtel

---

Agger/Hyypia

---

Aurelio/New LB

New WG/Pennant

---

Masch/Alonso

---

Gerrard/Lucas----New WG/Kewell

---

Torres/Kuyt

---

Babel/New Str

Benayoun ?

Melion wrote: »

Ive said it before but ill go again.
We dont need a DC, especially not now that we've signed Skrtel.
We dont need a left winger, Babel will play there next year.
I think Pennant is a good player, and would be excellent as backup to Silva/Mancini/Quaresma
We dont need a DL, Aurelio and Insua are good enough there.
We do need a striker though.

Aurelio has played on average, about 15 games per season over the last 5 or 6 years of his career. Hes too injury prone to be first choice LB. Insua ? C'mon! He looks decent in the reserves but he would end up playing the vast majority of games as Aurelio is always injured.

Hyypia wont last forever either.

Melion

Tusky wrote: »

Aurelio has played on average, about 15 games per season over the last 5 or 6 years of his career. Hes too injury prone to be first choice LB. Insua ? C'mon! He looks decent in the reserves but he would end up playing the vast majority of games as Aurelio is always injured.

Hyypia wont last forever either.

Insua looks class in the reserves, not decent. He should get a run in the premier league from about March if we're still in the CL.

We have Carra, Agger, Skrtel, Hobbs and Hyypia. We dont need another DC

missingtime

I said it before and I'll say it again

Paul Anderson

The winger marked his first start for Swansea City with a fantastic goal during the midweek 2-0 win over Walsall in the Carling Cup. He made his Swans debut as a substitute during the 2-1 opening day defeat by Oldham, but missed Saturday's goalless draw with Nottingham Forest with a hamstring strain.

Source - http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/archivedirs/news/2007/aug/20/N156746070820-1451.htm

I'd prefer him to start over pennant next year.

lpool2k05

When i seen Rick Parry last night with Jamie Carragher I was wondering where he has been in all of this!!He should make a statement to the fans to assure them of Liverpools future.We are all left wondering whats next!!

Melion

missingtime wrote: »

I said it before and I'll say it again

Paul Anderson

The winger marked his first start for Swansea City with a fantastic goal during the midweek 2-0 win over Walsall in the Carling Cup. He made his Swans debut as a substitute during the 2-1 opening day defeat by Oldham, but missed Saturday's goalless draw with Nottingham Forest with a hamstring strain.

Source - http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/archivedirs/news/2007/aug/20/N156746070820-1451.htm

I'd prefer him to start over pennant next year.

Im getting fed up talking about him, the lad is class. Will hopefully show it at Anfield next weekend if he's allowed to play for Swansea

whatawaster

Melion wrote: »

Im getting fed up talking about him, the lad is class. Will hopefully show it at Anfield next weekend if he's allowed to play for Swansea

i hope so, but class in league one is different from class in the prem.

I left benayoun out because i know Rafa won't sell him because he loves him. But I don't think he's good enough for Pool really. decent backup utility type player though.

mike65

Benni would be more useful if played "in the hole" but Rafa does'nt pick that formation cos of Gerrard (have to shift him to the right).

Mike.

zing

lpool2k05 wrote: »

When i seen Rick Parry last night with Jamie Carragher I was wondering where he has been in all of this!!He should make a statement to the fans to assure them of Liverpools future.We are all left wondering whats next!!

You won't hear from Parry - whether or not that's because he's just doing what he's told or doing things 'the Liverpool way' remains to be seen (most believe the former). Reports today that Parry, Moores & Gillet are far from impressed with Hicks interview. Other reports that Parry & Moores have been trying to smooth things over behind the scenes since this mess all came about back in Nov.

Cyrus

zing wrote: »

You won't hear from Parry - whether or not that's because he's just doing what he's told or doing things 'the Liverpool way' remains to be seen (most believe the former). Reports today that Parry, Moores & Gillet are far from impressed with Hicks interview. Other reports that Parry & Moores have been trying to smooth things over behind the scenes since this mess all came about back in Nov.

parry has been doing something? doubtful :rolleyes: