Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

Villain

I think Mr Alan the problem is as Helix said you have the players to challenege I don't think Liverpool have had a stronger squad in the last 5-7 years, now as everyone knows Utd and Chelsea have improved too but I don't think Liverpool can get a much stronger side, even as Rafa said when he was asked last night about more signings, he said they only needed a CB. Rafa is a great European manager but he will never win the Premier League. If you want to win the premier league you have to change the manager the only problem is if you do it at this moment in time many players might follow him. Its catch 22 but I don't think Gerrard, Torres etc will stick around for another season of talking about winning the league in August and then talk about getting 4th in January.

spockety

Villain wrote: »

I thought the Liverpool fans wanted to win the Premier League though, the Champions league is a great trophy to win but after 19 years without a league title I would have thought Englands most successful club would want the Premier League and I think its obvious Rafa isn't going to win the PL.

Is it really obvious?
Or are you saying it's your "opinion"? There is a difference.

There is a large school of thought that would suggest Rafa's managerial record puts him in a prime position to bring the league title to Anfield. My opinion is that the number of fans who think that far outweighs the number who don't. I have to give credit to the anti-Rafa's though, they certainly are able to muster up and wage quite an internet forum war. Rarely hear them at matches though, if ever.

You can't say that match goers are a blinkered bunch. Perhaps they don't play Championship Manager much, or maybe they don't hit refresh on football365.com all day, or look at the table every five minutes. There is a bigger and more complex picture than "Liverpool SHOULD win the league with that squad". Chelsea, Arsenal, and Manchester United SHOULD also win the league with their squads, but not all of them will.

Liverpool fans crave the league, of that there is no doubt, but they are also a very intelligent bunch in terms of a football world view, and it has been shown time and time and time again in football that having patience with an obviously good manager will reap it's rewards. It has been shown time and time and time again that not showing patience with managers does nothing for your club's success.

Mr Alan

I see where you're coming from Villian, but the simple fact is, you cant say beyond a doubt that Rafa cant win the PL, despite the fact that you and numerous other posters have continuously said that. He has achieved almost every goal he has set himself in his career, Istanbul, Athens and our continuing decent form in Europe should buy him the time at least another season before people decide he should gete the sack or watever.

He has turned down Real at least twice for us and would walk pretty much into any job in world football if he left us. Our current owners think Klinnsmann is a better man for the job? Mourinho should go nowhere near it as he doesnt have the class to be involved in our club. There is no outstanding canditates to take Rafas job, therefore, prople should leave him the **** alone to get on with his job.

Mr Alan

spockety wrote: »

I have to give credit to the anti-Rafa's though, they certainly are able to muster up and wage quite an internet forum war. Rarely hear them at matches though, if ever.

Ok, you are my new favourite poster here

_blank_

Mr Alan wrote: »

Ok, you are my new favourite poster here

:eek:

How do I regain the title Al?

Cyrus

Tauren wrote: »

yeah - well what if united won the treble again and liverpool went into administration, didn't win or draw another game all season and got reegatd? Huh, what IF that happens?

Just as relevent as your question, btw.

Anyway, its not just the poor performances I am enjoying, it is the board room stuff - after all teh gloating USA chants United recieved off your lot when we sold to an American (which we actually tried to stop...) cause of course Liverpool would never sell out like that. Then the gloating chants of USA when Liverpool actually did sell out, happily, to two Yanks cause you all though you had hit the jackpot, and now you want to sell out again cause you'r not happy with how selling out the last time worked out.

looks like we have reached the magic forty so safe from relegation

Anyway united fans have seriously short term memories -

Slur alex took over Nov 86, his first modicum of success was an fa cup in May of 1990 (finishing 13th in the league that year with a team incl mark hughes, ince, pallister, robson, bruce), he finally won the leage in 92/93 several major signings (cantona, schmeichal, kanchelskis) later.

Benitez is liverpool manager since june 04, he has won the CL (and reached another final) and the FA cup, he has signed some excellent players and the team has a super spine but more work needs to be done, he is the man to do it, to believe other wise is short sighted and imo five years is a minimum.

THe season has not ended yet, if liverpool have a good (semi final at least in either) cup run and finish within 10 points or so of the league leaders i believe that this is something to build on again and with the right signings we should again improve.

I cant wait til fergie retires and quieroz is appointed, ill spend all my time in the man u thread then, cant wait :rolleyes:

Mitch Connor

Cyrus wrote: »

looks like we have reached the magic forty so safe from relegation

Anyway united fans have seriously short term memories -

Slur alex took over Nov 86, his first modicum of success was an fa cup in May of 1990 (finishing 13th in the league that year with a team incl mark hughes, ince, pallister, robson, bruce), he finally won the leage in 92/93 several major signings (cantona, schmeichal, kanchelskis) later.

Benitez is liverpool manager since june 04, he has won the CL (and reached another final) and the FA cup, he has signed some excellent players and the team has a super spine but more work needs to be done, he is the man to do it, to believe other wise is short sighted and imo five years is a minimum.

THe season has not ended yet, if liverpool have a good (semi final at least in either) cup run and finish within 10 points or so of the league leaders i believe that this is something to build on again and with the right signings we should again improve.

I cant wait til fergie retires and quieroz is appointed, ill spend all my time in the man u thread then, cant wait :rolleyes:

Indeed. Keep rafa as manager. I really want him to stay.

As for strong signigns - Rafa's inconsistency in the transfer market would be a question here. All you need to do, apparently, is sell out again so you can buy players beyond the means of your club and keep on the up.

Cyrus

i think most of his major signings have been a success, reina, alonso, torres, agger.

His ratio is at least as good as fergies, a lot of the failures have been shipped on.

who says liverpool will buy players beyond the means of the club, or have you decided that, anyway while quoting my post you have completely ignored its content proving my point about the short term memory 'you lot' have

zing

Tauren wrote: »

All you need to do, apparently, is sell out again so you can buy players beyond the means of your club and keep on the up.

Oh ffs - don't you get why we're against G&H ? It's about not stretching the club beyond our means. Most of us would sooner keep the same players we have now for the next 10 years than stretch the club beyond our means.

machiavellianme

spockety wrote: »

I have to give credit to the anti-Rafa's though, they certainly are able to muster up and wage quite an internet forum war. Rarely hear them at matches though, if ever.

Ah, the old "I've been to more matches than you so I'm a bigger fan" dig.

Truth be told, how many people would go on the Kop and in their best "OOT" accent shout something critical of the team no matter how true it may be?

Mitch Connor

zing wrote: »

Oh ffs - don't you get why we're against G&H ? It's about not stretching the club beyond our means. Most of us would sooner keep the same players we have now for the next 10 years than stretch the club beyond our means.

yeah - but seemingly all your fans want to sell out to DIC so that they can bankroll player purchases in excess of what profit your club makes.

citytillidie

Just one or two things

Liverpool last night played well for a change but like Arsenal last season they are trying to walk the ball into the net.

From that team Rafa should either play Crouch from the start or look for another striker as Kuyt and Vorinan are not good enough for Liverpool.

Babel should have played from the start.

In the CL everyone was writing Liverpool off at the same point last season before we played Barca look what happened, I am glad Liverpool are going into the Inter game as Underdogs as it mean all the pressue is on Inter.

English media since they got Jose sacked at Chelsea and McClaren from England have turned there attention at Rafa, I would rather read the media from the continent were Liverpool have a lot more respect for what they have done in Europe in recent seasons.

Helix

spockety wrote: »

There is a large school of thought that would suggest Rafa's managerial record puts him in a prime position to bring the league title to Anfield. My opinion is that the number of fans who think that far outweighs the number who don't. I have to give credit to the anti-Rafa's though, they certainly are able to muster up and wage quite an internet forum war. Rarely hear them at matches though, if ever.

so explain why youre struggling to badly this season with the strongest team yis have had in a decade, after the manager spending over £150 million?

why are liverpool who have spent so much behind everton, and level with villa and man city if its not bad management?

benitez has had all the money he wanted and still, with that squad, you underachieve

why?

mike65

Rafa says no more buys this window (not a surprise), Momo to pay for Skrtle.

Mike.

citytillidie

Helix wrote: »

so explain why youre struggling to badly this season with the strongest team yis have had in a decade, after the manager spending over £150 million?

why are liverpool who have spent so much behind everton, and level with villa and man city if its not bad management?

benitez has had all the money he wanted and still, with that squad, you underachieve

why?

Again it comes down to the number of games played Everton have played more games. Liverpool have just been unlucky in recent weeks with very bad defending

Mitch Connor

Cyrus wrote: »

i think most of his major signings have been a success, reina, alonso, torres, agger.

His ratio is at least as good as fergies, a lot of the failures have been shipped on.

who says liverpool will buy players beyond the means of the club, or have you decided that, anyway while quoting my post you have completely ignored its content proving my point about the short term memory 'you lot' have

Lets see - my post was about finding it amusing that Liverpool laughed at United for selling out, sold out themselves, and want to sell out a second time. There was also a small bit kinda pointing out the "What if we are more successfull at the end of the season...." you had was crap - cause as you point out - the season is not over so we can only go on what we are seeing at the moment.

You then bang on about how fergie had trouble turning round a club that hadn't won the league for a quarter of a decade, which a boozing culture, into a club that was financially viable and succesfull and comparing it to Rafa's record - winning at his first shot at a European trophy (which is EXACTLY what united did - no english team was allowed in europe at the time) and pretty much maintaining the status-quo with regards to the league standings and point out that with some solid signings (Another word for expensive, perhaps?) you could go on to challenge for the league, much like nearly every fan said you'd be doing this season.

I then point out that I would like Rafa to stay (much like you would) and that to get these signings you want you will probably need to sell out to DIC cause at the moment I don't hink your yearly profit would cover the cost of building the stadium you want AND spending the amount of cash you want them to.

So, which content have a skipped?

Villain

You see the reason I think its obvious Liverpool won't win the title is becasue as I have said they have their strongest squad in years but won't win the title this year but its not as if they won't win but will push the top3 close I mean they are 14 points off the United and Arsenal and 10 off Chelsea thats quite a gap for such a strong team.

If you read back to the start of the season you will see I was saying Liverpool should challenge for the title this year but they are nowhere near it, imo they have the players but Rafa just isn't the type of manager to win the PL.

ciaran76

whatawaster wrote: »

"all the behind the scene's stuff isn't helping.
He has to be careful what he says.
It's going on everyday at the club."

Reading Gerrards comments and it got me thinking I saw Carragher making a comment on this last week after the Luton game and he said "As players, we have to take responsibility to sort things out on the pitch. Anything that goes on off the pitch then is nothing to do with the players"


http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0500liverpoolfc/0100news/tm_headline=jamie-carragher-refuses-to-use-excuses-for-indifferent-form&method=full&objectid=20360666&siteid=50061-name_page.html

Not reading too deep into it just something I noticed.

_blank_

citytillidie wrote: »

Liverpool have just been unlucky in recent weeks with very bad defending

Er what?

This is the most hilarious thing I've heard in this whole debate tbh.

A team is not "unlucky with very bad defending", they are just bad at defending.

Is Titus Bramble unlucky, or a bad defender?

Helix

citytillidie wrote: »

Again it comes down to the number of games played Everton have played more games. Liverpool have just been unlucky in recent weeks with very bad defending

everton have points in the bag, liverpool dont

a game in hand is worth nothing to liverpool at the moment

you also have chelsea away in 3 games which could very likely get rid of any possible future advantage the game hand may afford you

mike65

Amazingly Rafas stewardship is a secondary matter right at this moment.

The re-financing deal with Royal Bank of Scotland is on the verge of collapse, they have about two weeks to do the deal but everything is pointing to failure with the chaos in the markets that has hit RBS very hard.

clicky

clicky

Mike.

Spud83

Liverpool need to sort out there ownership before the end of the season to have any chance of keeping Rafa. I do not believe he will hang around for another season unless he is going to be backed in the transfer market. Something which most people are not confident of happening under Hicks and Gillet. Plus with all this talk of DIC does anybody know there views on the current manager? They might want their own man, something a lot of new owners seem to want.

Regarding to the comment Rafa made last night about him only needing a CB. That was in realtion to the January transfer market, I don't believe Rafa thinks his current squad is good enough to win the league. He will definitly be looking for backing come the summer.

zing

Tauren wrote: »

yeah - but seemingly all your fans want to sell out to DIC so that they can bankroll player purchases in excess of what profit your club makes.

No - we want owners who can deliver on what they promise, who can provide us with the means for the new stadium without risking the entire club in the process, who can provide the manager with a reasonable transfer budget (without say having to borrow from the chairman), who know they should shut up and stay in the background but most of all who respect the club and it's heritage & traditions.

And before you say it - yes Rafa (and previous managers) have been provided with reasonable (good even) transfer budgets - it's budgets going forward that's at stake now.

DIC aren't an ideal answer to our problems but right now they're the only other horse in the race.

citytillidie

Dont care about 3 weeks time i am just looking forward too the next two games Liverpool should win them

Home to Havent and Waterloovale and Sunderland

Helix

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

I do believe Rafa thinks his current squad is good enough to win the league

again more tune changing

in august we were hearing how this was definitely the liverpool team to do it. im sure theres comments from rafa saying they were ready to challenge

the bottom line is that benitez has built his own team, spending over £150m and youre no closer to winning the league than you were under roy evans

how the hell is that down to anything other than bad management?

how is dropping points to teams you should be beating due to the manager resting key players down to anything other than bad management?

how is being in the current league position down to anything other than bad management?

how is playing players out of position and not picking the strongest team down to anything other than bad management?

for the money benitez has spent to build his own team to win the league, he hasnt delivered in that respect. everyone on the planet can see it apart from these blindly following liverpool fans

its comparable with the geordie hysteria over keegan to everyone else bar yourselves

im not flaming, im asking honest questions so please answer them civily if you can

spockety

Helix wrote: »

so explain why youre struggling to badly this season with the strongest team yis have had in a decade, after the manager spending over £150 million?
why are liverpool who have spent so much behind everton, and level with villa and man city if its not bad management?
benitez has had all the money he wanted and still, with that squad, you underachieve
why?

It's a good question, I'm also sure it's a question Rafa never lets leave his head.

Benitez has not had 'all the money he wanted', this has been shown time and time again over the years as Rafa missed out on high profile targets due to lack of board backing. For god's sake, David Moores had to pay for Kuyt out of his own pocket because the club couldn't afford the 10m required to pay for him.

In the one summer where Rafa was allowed to get big individual signings sanctioned, he went in for Torres and Babel. Yes thanks, more of the same please!

You have to ask, are Liverpool's squad really underachieving? We get so many supporters of other clubs on this thread constantly pointing out how lacking Liverpool's squad is for a Premier League campaign, and yet the same people say things like "that squad really should be challenging"! Which is it?

Benitez does not deploy negative football, you can see from the positions the players take up, and the number of chances at goal they get that this is not the case. Yes, the only stat that matters at the very end of a match is the scoreline, of that there is no doubt, however you can still read a lot into other statistics, and the fact that Benitez lays out his team in such a way as to get his players into good scoring positions tells me that he is telling them the right things. When the players themselves can't actually take those chances, what does that tell you? Benitez's remote control device that he uses to move their legs needs a bit of callibration? Ahem.

Why are Liverpool players not taking their chances when they come? In the final split second before they shoot or pass, do they think to themselves "Benitez is a rubbish manager, he is managing us incorrectly, that is why I am going to sky this ball into row Z"?
Or could it be that a lot of the blame for Liverpool's predicament in the league falls on the players?

I think there were enough matches this season that Liverpool's players should have gone out and won instead of drawing or losing that were as a result of the players not doing their jobs , which has affected Liverpool's league standing so bad, that you cannot blame the manager entirely unless you can clearly show that his TACTICS or decisions were wrong in terms of how he set out the team and their playing.

I have no doubt that people will come back and say "Yes but if the players are playing badly then no matter what, it is the managers fault". You're entitled to that opinion, but unless you can form a valid argument to back it up, it appears incredibly weak.

Helix

citytillidie wrote: »

Dont care about 3 weeks time i am just looking forward too the next two games Liverpool should win them

Home to Havent and Waterloovale and Sunderland

west ham away is before sunderland at home

Spud83

citytillidie wrote: »

Dont care about 3 weeks time i am just looking forward too the next two games Liverpool should win them

Home to Havent and Waterloovale and Sunderland

Dont you have west ham away in between them?

Mitch Connor

zing wrote: »

No - we want owners who can deliver on what they promise, who can provide us with the means for the new stadium without risking the entire club in the process, who can provide the manager with a reasonable transfer budget (without say having to borrow from the chairman), who know they should shut up and stay in the background but most of all who respect the club and it's heritage & traditions.

And before you say it - yes Rafa (and previous managers) have been provided with reasonable (good even) transfer budgets - it's budgets going forward that's at stake now.

DIC aren't an ideal answer to our problems but right now they're the only other horse in the race.

How about you just pay for the stadium yourselves - Arsenal managed it without selling out. Why do you want to sell out so someone can hand you everything on a plate.

Spud83

Helix wrote: »

again more tune changing

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

I do believe Rafa thinks his current squad is good enough to win the league.

Thats meant to be

I don't believe Rafa thinks his current squad is good enough to win the league.

I'll edit the orignal.

Helix

spockety wrote: »

Benitez has not had 'all the money he wanted', this has been shown time and time again over the years as Rafa missed out on high profile targets due to lack of board backing.

hes still managed to spend over £150m, and hes still managed to sell on almost half the players he bought at a loss

spockety wrote: »

You have to ask, are Liverpool's squad really underachieving? We get so many supporters of other clubs on this thread constantly pointing out how lacking Liverpool's squad is for a Premier League campaign, and yet the same people say things like "that squad really should be challenging"!

the squad SHOULD be able to challenge, its the manager so far as i can see thats stopping it. how many crazy decisions has he made regarding bizarre starting xis and resting important players which led to dropped points?

spockety wrote: »

When the players themselves can't actually take those chances, what does that tell you?

it tells me that the manager has consistantly wasted tens of millions on the wrong players

spockety wrote: »

Or could it be that a lot of the blame for Liverpool's predicament in the league falls on the players?

and who buys the players? who is in charge of coaching them?

spockety wrote: »

you cannot blame the manager entirely unless you can clearly show that his TACTICS or decisions were wrong in terms of how he set out the team and their playing.

so youre saying he was bang on with all his resting and strange starting xis? he hasnt once made a balls of picking his starting eleven or resting players at the wrong time?

spockety

Tauren wrote: »

How about you just pay for the stadium yourselves - Arsenal managed it without selling out. Why do you want to sell out so someone can hand you everything on a plate.

You are showing a total lack of understanding as to why Liverpool fans are currently backing a bid from DIC.

There are plenty of posts on the preceding pages which explain in detail why it is the case, I suggest that you read them before asking ignorant and ill informed questions.

citytillidie

I meant to say next two home games, as Liverpools home form this season has been bad.

zing

Tauren wrote: »

How about you just pay for the stadium yourselves - Arsenal managed it without selling out. Why do you want to sell out so someone can hand you everything on a plate.

In an ideal world we would/should be able to pay for it ourselves and that is what G&H intend to do (along with selling naming rights, etc..). The issue with that is whether or not the level of debt they're looking to lump onto the club is sustainable. The previous administration did not believe it was.

Main differences with Arsenal is that building costs have since increased significantly (steel, etc..) and that it's not just the cost of the stadium we have to pay for - add on the costs of buying the club too.

Spud83

zing wrote: »

Main differences with Arsenal is that building costs have since increased significantly (steel, etc..) and that it's not just the cost of the stadium we have to pay for - add on the costs of buying the club too.

Aresnal also managed to get the financing (loan) for their statdium at completly different time in the world market. Much harder to get that kind of financing at a repayable rate now a days.

Nunu

Mr Alan wrote: »

Rafa is 3 years into a 5 year plan. After 5 years, pass judgement on Rafa and his "plan"

It's almost 4 years Al, the clock is ticking...

Cyrus wrote: »

Slur alex

Is that really necessary Cyrus

spockety

machiavellianme wrote: »

Ah, the old "I've been to more matches than you so I'm a bigger fan" dig.

Not at all. I could count on two hands the number of matches I've been to at Anfield.

But I do accept that there is a different tide of opinion, and perhaps even a more valid opinion in a lot of cases, expressed by season ticket holders, than by the likes of us, yes.

Helix

spockety wrote: »

Not at all. I could count on two hands the number of matches I've been to at Anfield.

But I do accept that there is a different tide of opinion, and perhaps even a more valid opinion in a lot of cases, expressed by season ticket holders, than by the likes of us, yes.

yeah but take newcastle for an example that season ticket holders have a tendancy not to be able to see the wood for the trees

Cyrus

Nunu wrote: »

It's almost 4 years Al, the clock is ticking...



Is that really necessary Cyrus

freudian slip, sorry:D

Mr Alan

Helix wrote: »

yeah but take newcastle for an example that season ticket holders have a tendancy not to be able to see the wood for the trees

Please dont ever compare Liverpool fans to Newcastle fans

Chardee MacDennis

Litmanen to Fulham apparently. Another player we should have hung onto for another couple of seasons!

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

Please dont ever compare Liverpool fans to Newcastle fans

thats what a lot of you are like in fairness

spockety

Helix wrote: »

yeah but take newcastle for an example that season ticket holders have a tendancy not to be able to see the wood for the trees

There are many examples for which you can use Newcastle as evidence for what you don't want your club to be like! But in fairness to them, they usually have excellent support.

Helix

they get good numbers yeah, but theyre just ridiculous for want of a better word

Jesus Wept

Helix wrote: »

hes still managed to spend over £150m

Stop listening to Andy Gray.

Helix wrote: »

and hes still managed to sell on almost half the players he bought at a loss

And by that logic... he sold slightly more than half of the players on at a profit?

_blank_

The-Rigger wrote: »

Stop listening to Andy Gray.

Quite, Ken Early said it was £120m, on Off The Ball last night.

Mitch Connor

spockety wrote: »

You are showing a total lack of understanding as to why Liverpool fans are currently backing a bid from DIC.

There are plenty of posts on the preceding pages which explain in detail why it is the case, I suggest that you read them before asking ignorant and ill informed questions.

no - its a perfectly valid point - a vocal majority seemed so happy when G&H bought the club because at the time they promised to build the stadium for you, now that isn't the case you want them out so, among other things, DIC can build the stadium for you without Liverpool iteslf spending a penny.

zing

Helix wrote: »

hes still managed to spend over £150m, and hes still managed to sell on almost half the players he bought at a loss

Shame on him for not turning us into a breeder club snapping up all the young starlets of tomorrow and selling them on for big profit a few years down the road. Most players depreciate in value as they get older and/or the number of years on their contracts shrinks.

Mitch Connor

spockety wrote: »

There are many examples for which you can use Newcastle as evidence for what you don't want your club to be like! But in fairness to them, they usually have excellent support.

During the good times, yes.

Helix

The-Rigger wrote: »

Stop listening to Andy Gray.

andy gray didnt tell me how much benitez spent. whats your point here exactly?

The-Rigger wrote: »

And by that logic... he sold slightly more than half of the players on at a profit?

hes only made profit on 4 players hes bought and sold

craig bellamy was the only player he made more than a million on