Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

jank

Rafa...is that you??

Spud83

I find the rotation argument funny as most people don’t actually point out what I believe is the main problem with Rafa's so called rotation and that is that he rotates his system so much. I don’t have facts to back this up but he constantly seems to be asking his players to play in different formations/and tactically different each week depending on the opposition.

I believe every top team normally has a set style and set formation. That does not change regardless of the opposition. I know as Man u fan I go nuts when I seen Ferguson switches between 4-5-1/4-4-2 a few seasons ago. Our return to form last year coincided with a return to the settled 4-4-2 approach.

Rafa may not know his best team (though he knows his core) he should settle on one system.

_blank_

spockety wrote: »

Steve Finnan has retired from International football with 50 caps.

PHB wrote: »

offs That's terrible news!

Meh, if the rest of the international squad had any sense, they'd do the same tbh.

Spud83

spockety wrote: »

Steve Finnan has retired from International football with 50 caps.

Link?

spockety

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Link?

www.liverpoolfc.tv top story.

purple'n'gold

Questions asked and answered.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/7199967.stm

Nunu

spockety wrote: »

Steve Finnan has retired from International football with 50 caps.

WTF

...with a World Cup Campaign coming up. This stinks!

citytillidie

The-Rigger wrote: »

Is this meant to strengthen your point?

You said he spent £150 million, now you say £79.92 million.
Bit of a difference there I'd say.

And then you quote all the figures from every transfer as if they are factual when most are undisclosed and performance based as stated.

Knock that down to £75 Million he seemed to have lost the £4 Million for Luis Garcia

missingtime

The spending thing is very misleading. Benitez never had the chance to buy the players that he really wanted so he was stuck with getting the next best...if they weren't good enough, they were sold the next season. Thats the reason that there is a high turnover of players.

prendy

hopefully finnan goes for another few good years now with us!

Mitch Connor

Mr Alan wrote: »

I mean an article that makes sense in explaining why a man like Rafa would act like he did, as opposed to your THEORY which doesnt hold any water.

Simple fact is that if Rafa didnt act like he did, the spotlight would never have been on the owners.

i didn't prupose any theory as to why he did what he did. I gave an opinion on how he acted - but not what his reasoning behind it was.

zing

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

I find the rotation argument funny as most people don’t actually point out what I believe is the main problem with Rafa's so called rotation and that is that he rotates his system so much. I don’t have facts to back this up but he constantly seems to be asking his players to play in different formations/and tactically different each week depending on the opposition.

I believe every top team normally has a set style and set formation. That does not change regardless of the opposition. I know as Man u fan I go nuts when I seen Ferguson switches between 4-5-1/4-4-2 a few seasons ago. Our return to form last year coincided with a return to the settled 4-4-2 approach.

Rafa may not know his best team (though he knows his core) he should settle on one system.

People just don't seem to get why he rotates. It's not for the heck of it and it's not because he's unsure of his top XI. It's because he analyses the opposition team, the players, how they play, their formation, etc.. and chooses a starting XI from his entire squad which he feels are the most capable of nullifying the oppositions threat and beating them. e.g. if they've slow defenders he'll go with pace up front, if they've short defenders he'll go with Crouch, etc..

Here I think he sometimes over analyses things e.g. rather than fielding a team to make say Wigan 'play against us' he fielded a team to play against their expected formation.

zing

Remind me - was it decided last summer to cap these threads at 10k posts or let them run for a season ? At this rate we'll hit 10k in a few weeks..

~Rebel~

zing wrote: »

Remind me - was it decided last summer to cap these threads at 10k posts or let them run for a season ? At this rate we'll hit 10k in a few weeks..

cant remember. makes more sense just to leave it as a thread for the season, then start a new one for next season. Plenty of +10k threads around boards.

jesus_thats_gre

jank wrote: »

Then again they may win the whole thing and ill get a PM from Jesus_thats_great 5 seconds after the final whistle saying "hahaha your soooo wrong!!!" :rolleyes::D!

About 200 people on this forum claimed that Liverpool would not win the CL. You were the only one to get a PM of me. I think the fact that you were being an abnoxious ****ing twat at the time was the reason that you alone got a PM. I also remember you getting banned quite few times during that period for being a little **** too. Seems like little has changed..

Woops, went and got myself banned

jesus_thats_gre

PHB wrote: »

That's the thing though. There's a reason we aren't football managers and Wenger and Fergie are. The idea of selling Ruud or Henry was absurd, but it paid off. Those radical changes make the difference, make it change how the team play, get the best out of players.

Using your own logic, who are you to claim that Benitez is not up to the task of winning the PL?

Should I even go back and go through all the United supporters who were calling for Ferguson to retire not so long ago. Would probably be quite a correlation between those and the people claiming that Benitez is not up the task now.

PHB wrote: »

That is certainly true. There has been a shift from defence to attack somewhat, not to a high enough level I feel, but there's definately been a change. I do think that that was always gona expose Liverpools defensive frailties but that's another debate (not just in terms of weakness at CB, everybody knew about that, but in terms of Carragher's lack of pace (which is the prime reason for most of his mistakes this year) which is exposed when you become more attacking).

So there has been a willingness to change? I would agree that doing so would leave the defence more exposed but it certainly wasn't over detrimental in the opening 6 games of the season when Agger was fit. Hypia, while having done a good job for most of the time that he has stepped in this season, took quite a few games to get up to speed again. There is no doubt in my mind that Carragher had to change his game to compensate for this shortcoming and it cost us dearly as we made stupid mistakes that have been uncharacteristic of LFC for a few seasons now.

PHB wrote: »

I like your systems, I thought they were really spot on. However you have to ask yourself the questions? Does it get the best out of your current players? The answer is certainly no. In this season, I'd say most people would agree that the only attacking players who have shown any sort of form have been Gerrard and Torres. There are countless players outside the top 4 who have played better than the rest of Liverpools attack. Why? Because the system is better suited to them. Rafa's system is currently suited to players he doesn't have, and that's why Liverpool are where they are..

It doesn't get the best out of the current players as we have players that are more suited to playing more infield being expected to play as wingers. When you are short a number of 2 or 3 key personel, you have to improvise. This goes back to needing two quality wingers so that the likes of Babel and Jossi can be employed in their best position and in the best system.

PHB wrote: »

If he gets the new signings, then maybe the system will become amazing, but that's yet to be seen. .

I feel it is extremely likely that we will genuinely compete and if we have a degree of good fortune, possibly go all the way.

PHB wrote: »

Even if he does get new signings, all it will mean is that he will have a squad as good as United's, Arsenals and Chelseas. At which point, it will come down to which system gets the best out of those players. Players matter, there's no doubt about that, but the system matters more. For about half a season United played with Giggs and O'Shea in the center of midfield. They went on a massive run of wins. The quality in the middle of course was not there, but the system suited all the players around them to the extent that it all worked out..

As has been siad before, he is and always have been 3 or 4 world class 20+ million pound signings behind those three teams. He is being heavilty criticised despite you clearly acknowledging that he does not have as good a squad. I will reserve judgement until he does have a squad on par with those 3. Before we get in to this debate, I fully support what he as done so far and the clearing out of GH's players.

PHB wrote: »

I'd still be surprised to see you finish outside the top 4, very surprised, but it's becoming a possibility. The fact that it is becoming a possibility is an absolute joke imo.

It is a joke alright. Quite a few things about the club are a joke. As I pointed out though, Arsenal were outside the top 4 for a large amount of last season and are joint favs to win the league with the same setup and personnel.

jesus_thats_gre

Helix wrote: »

Total Spending: £135,100,000 (150+ should the mascherano deal happen)
Total Income: £55,180,000

32 players signed in just under 4 years, and theres still 6 players he inherrited still at the club. that means hes made 32 signings for the additional 10 places for a matchday squad, and still doesnt have what he wants, or seemingly know what he wants

I can think of 4 players for both Chelsea and Man United that in themselves total more than his total net spend.. Says quite a bit tbh.

kryogen

ok, 2 things keep coming back to me as i been reading through the last few pages

A, Why do you keep listing Athens as an achievement for benitez? did i miss something? didnt milan win? wasnt it a former great liverpool manager who said, "if your first your first, if your second, your nothing"? i think you would start laughing if other fans were to continuously post about the time their team got beat as an achievement

B, please stop with all this up yer own arse everybody has an obsession with liverpool crap, honestly, all it does is make you sound like a knob head

i dont think benitez is blameless at all in this mess your in, but i assume everybody knows my opinions on him by now, i think somebody touched on the point, he doesnt seem to be able to motivate week in week out to get the consistency needed to win the league

no the league table never lies, and where you lie at any given time is exactly where you deserve to be, and where you lie at the end of the season is exactly where you deserve to be, i still cant see anybody finishing 4th ahead of ye but its a joke that there could now be a fight for that spot, it is a step backwards in the league for you imo, its not challenging for the title, or keeping pace with the leaders, its fighting for 4th

in fairness jesus the great, arsenal sold henry, can you not comprehend the difference that has made? the team play as a whole now, its not all just focused on him.......

jesus_thats_gre

kryogen wrote: »

A, Why do you keep listing Athens as an achievement for benitez? did i miss something? didnt milan win? wasnt it a former great liverpool manager who said, "if your first your first, if your second, your nothing"? i think you would start laughing if other fans were to continuously post about the time their team got beat as an achievement

But success doe count for something yeah? How does his successes in the past 5 years (or however long he has been at Liverpool if you want to concentrate on the PL) compare with his peers?

kryogen

i dont really get your question, he has had no success in the prem, none, nada, zip!!! since he has been at liverpool only 2 other managers have won the league havent they? and one of them is gone now..... but whats the relevance, ok, he is doing as well as wenger in the league in the past 3 years, but the slight difference between him and wenger is that wenger has won the league, more then once.........so he actually has a pedigree to point to if asked, benitez has nothing he can point to in the league, he has won the champions league, 3 years ago....thats it....you can count the fa cup as a success i guess, but is his record much better then houlliers? if i remember correctly it was roy evans that got ye closest to a title challenge in recent years

Tusky

kryogen wrote: »

ok, 2 things keep coming back to me as i been reading through the last few pages

A, Why do you keep listing Athens as an achievement for benitez? did i miss something? didnt milan win? wasnt it a former great liverpool manager who said, "if your first your first, if your second, your nothing"? i think you would start laughing if other fans were to continuously post about the time their team got beat as an achievement
.

Oh come on. Runners up in the Champions League is an achievement. The further you go in the competition, the bigger the achievement. Obviously its no patch on winning it but getting to the final twice in three years regardless of the win in Instanbul, is an achievement.

redzerdrog

citytillidie wrote: »

Knock that down to £75 Million he seemed to have lost the £4 Million for Luis Garcia

and he has torres at £26.5m when the fee was somewere close to £20m

zing

There's an underlying fundamental difference between most of the Liverpool supporters here and the non Liverpool supporters here that no amount of argueing and trying to proove your points will change. And that is that most Liverpool supporters actually like Rafa and will therefore support him for as long as he is at the club. Probably in much the same way that most non Utd supporters I know can't stand Fergie.

We can all keep making points about his transfer history, the trophies he's won, his failure to mount any sort of a title challenge, etc.. but neither side is going to convince the other they're right and the other is wrong. And from that point of view this fortnightly/weekly debate about him is rather pointless.

jesus_thats_gre

kryogen wrote: »

i dont really get your question, he has had no success in the prem, none, nada, zip!!! since he has been at liverpool only 2 other managers have won the league havent they? and one of them is gone now..... but whats the relevance, ok, he is doing as well as wenger in the league in the past 3 years, but the slight difference between him and wenger is that wenger has won the league, more then once.........so he actually has a pedigree to point to if asked, benitez has nothing he can point to in the league, he has won the champions league, 3 years ago....thats it....you can count the fa cup as a success i guess, but is his record much better then houlliers? if i remember correctly it was roy evans that got ye closest to a title challenge in recent years

My point is that in the time he has been in England, Liverpool have won as much as any other manager that is presently serving in the league.

If you are going to go back further than that, you have to include his record in Spain. Doing some just proves that he has a track record of being able to win the league.

prendy

^^well said

Jazzy

this thread should be changed to "Liverpool Need Good Wingers and General Discussion 2007/200"

thats our biggest problem imo. no decent wingers whatsoever. if we dont sign at least 1 good winger (15 - 20 mill price range) i think im actually going to go insane. either that or im going to fly to benitez's house with a baseball bat and wreck up the joint untill he does buy a fukin winger.

its our underlying gameplay problem. we are completely ****e when we try to play wide... whereas the 3 teams who are leading in the pl are pretty deadly when they utilise the width of the pitch

kryogen

i agree with alot of what you say JTG, but i dont think whether he has won the league in another country has any relevance to whether he can win the prem league........i dont want to have another arguement about it or anything though, so lets agree to disagree.....you may think you have the right man for the job, i dont think you do..... thats that!

jesus_thats_gre

kryogen wrote: »

i agree with alot of what you say JTG, but i dont think whether he has won the league in another country has any relevance to whether he can win the prem league........i dont want to have another arguement about it or anything though, so lets agree to disagree.....you may think you have the right man for the job, i dont think you do..... thats that!

It is when that league was clearly the best league with the most wealthy clubs, largest transfer records, best player and best teams in the world at the time.

The only reason I argue that point is that people love pointing out that AF and AW have won it before and that automatically puts them lightyears ahead of Benitez and automatically puts Liverpool out of the running. AW winning the league 4 or 5 years ago has absolutely nothing to do with now. The league has changed so much since those days that it is unbelieveable.

By the way, that is not being critical of either of their achievements. The two of them are clearly the best managers in the EPL.

herbieflowers

What about Fergie winning it pretty much consistently over the past 12-13 years?

spockety

The only true way to measure Benitez's league success versus that of Alex Ferguson or Arsene Wenger is to give him the same amount of time as they have had. After 12 years we can compare him to Wengers first twelve, and after 20 we can compare him to Fergusons, bingo.

Everyone's a winner!

herbieflowers

Yep, but it's unlikely that Benitez will last that long...is keeping long-term managers at the helm a thing of the past (granted AW and SAF were exceptions)?

DSB

spockety wrote: »

The only true way to measure Benitez's league success versus that of Alex Ferguson or Arsene Wenger is to give him the same amount of time as they have had. After 12 years we can compare him to Wengers first twelve, and after 20 we can compare him to Fergusons, bingo.

Everyone's a winner!

Hahahaha

jesus_thats_gre

herbieflowers wrote: »

What about Fergie winning it pretty much consistently over the past 12-13 years?

He is clearly one of the best managers in the history of the game.. United have built on nearly 15 years of year on year success and this is reflected in the quality they have throughout the squad. Considering this, how can you use this continued success to criticise Rafa who is on his 4th year trying first to catch up and eventually supersede United.

jesus_thats_gre

herbieflowers wrote: »

Yep, but it's unlikely that Benitez will last that long...is keeping long-term managers at the helm a thing of the past (granted AW and SAF were exceptions)?

Considering that the two richest clubs in England both have managers than have been in the job for 10 plus years, I do not think it is a thing of the past.

herbieflowers

I'm not criticising Rafa, first and foremost. I'm not even sure what my initial post was referring to...but I do think that football is a changed game now, margins are slimmer (financially etc) I don't know if we'll ever see long-term managers again.

Just saw your reply. I do. Mainly because football, as you pointed out, has changed hugely over the last number of years. Wenger and Fergie are of a different era...

spockety

Yes but in the Premier League, the last managers to win it are either ones who have been given lots of time, stability, and backing by their board, or in the case of Chelsea, wedgeloads of cash with no practically transfer any object, which was not only used to buy players for your team, but I also reckon to buy players to make sure your biggest competition didn't get them.

You say football has changed hugely over the last number of years, but it is still either cash that gets you there (like it was for Blackburn), or board patience (Wenger), or a combination of both (Ferguson).

Liverpool have to give Benitez more of both if he is to win the title.

DSB

spockety wrote: »

Yes but in the Premier League, the last managers to win it are either ones who have been given lots of time, stability, and backing by their board, or in the case of Chelsea, wedgeloads of cash with no practically transfer any object, which was not only used to buy players for your team, but I also reckon to buy players to make sure your biggest competition didn't get them.

You say football has changed hugely over the last number of years, but it is still either cash that gets you there (like it was for Blackburn), or board patience (Wenger), or a combination of both (Ferguson).

Liverpool have to give Benitez more of both if he is to win the title.

There needs to be a progression though, to show that the side are getting closer towards winning the title. Liverpool have been going backwards. If every club had adopted this approach, no1 would ever get rid of managers and Villa might still be stuck with O'Leary thinking he just needs a few years.

herbieflowers

spockety wrote: »

Yes but in the Premier League, the last managers to win it are either ones who have been given lots of time, stability, and backing by their board, or in the case of Chelsea, wedgeloads of cash with no practically transfer any object, which was not only used to buy players for your team, but I also reckon to buy players to make sure your biggest competition didn't get them.

You say football has changed hugely over the last number of years, but it is still either cash that gets you there (like it was for Blackburn), or board patience (Wenger), or a combination of both (Ferguson).

Liverpool have to give Benitez more of both if he is to win the title.

Yeah, but not every manager is capable of winning the PL. Benitez, imo, is one of those managers. Yes, time and stability and cash are necessities (except perhaps in the case of Wenger) but I honestly haven't seen any marked difference in Liverpool's overall level of performance this season, apart from, of course, Fernando Torres.

jesus_thats_gre

Out of curiosity, this will either shut me up or back me up. Has anyone got any links to stats showing attempts of goal, on target, goal to attempts ratios and so on for the past few seasons and this season?

mike65

Jebus stop willy waving.

Here's something rather more important, posted today on RAWk by someone who is well connected.

Hello all, i have a bit of an update that i heard today but this is the first time i have been able to access a PC.

Anyway am sticking my neck out here, so i don't want people to start asking questions as what i know and what i can divulge is in this post.

Basically DIC are now in direct contact with the owners in a bid to buy Kop Football Ltd, advisors who worked on the previous deal are working closely with them to broker the right deal for all partys. Direct dialogue is now taking place and it is hoped that providing everything is right DIC will make a formal bid for the club may be in the next few days.

However it is believed Hicks may use the interest to secure his loan, i.e. meaning he is able to show the bank there is a way out if it goes wrong.

I have to also point out that dispite rumours of a rift between Gillet and Hicks this is very wrong and they are still working closely on securing their refinance package deal hence the above.

Also on a different note, these Crouch rumours have more back bone to them then you think and i know Harry Redknapp has denied it but there has been contact between the clubs.

Mike.

jesus_thats_gre

mike65 wrote: »

Jebus stop willy waving.

Its not willy waving. If we have a similar enough number of chances but less goals, it is clear evidence that we are not clinical enough. Our goals to attempts ratio would also indicate where the problem is.

Nailz

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Our goals to attempts ratio would also indicate where the problem is.

Thats only Gerrard trying his 1 in 100 shots...

invincibleirish

DSB wrote: »

There needs to be a progression though, to show that the side are getting closer towards winning the title. Liverpool have been going backwards. If every club had adopted this approach, no1 would ever get rid of managers and Villa might still be stuck with O'Leary thinking he just needs a few years.

Oh god! if villa had did that where would be? league 1? 2?, oh the horror!

as for Rafa, ye liverpool fans seem to ignore the obvious, pretty much every fan of a club competing for the 4th spot should want Rafa to stay, i for one hope he stays at LFC forever and ever! Kuyt and Voronin every week too, why did he sell Zenden!:D

jesus_thats_gre

Nailz wrote: »

Thats only Gerrard trying his 1 in 100 shots...

lol never claimed it was gonna be scientific just a general idea

Nailz

But in all fairness, some of Gerrards shooting is rediculous (spelling)!

Villain

Not nearly as bad as Ronaldo's free kicks they are the funniest by far.

Nailz

Well that proves you watched little football this season...

Melion

Nailz wrote: »

Well that proves you watched little football this season...

Could say the same about you if you think Gerrards shooting is ridiculous

Nailz

No you couldn't actually....

Peyton Manning

Villain wrote: »

Not nearly as bad as Ronaldo's free kicks they are the funniest by far.

How many free kicks have Villa directly scored this season?