Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

Melion

whatawaster wrote: »

we could even try Crouch in the middle with Torres and Babel in the wider areas, though this might negate some of Nando's potency.

No, just no.

Why play one of the best strikers in world football out of position?

whatawaster

Melion wrote: »

No, just no.

Why play one of the best strikers in world football out of position?

well he already spends most of his time out wide anyway. He wouldn't be playing as a winger, just as part of a three man forward line. I personally wouldn't play him there i'd prefer Kuyt, but i'm simply suggesting it as an option.

Melion

Him playing wide of a three would definitely be better than a few weeks ago when he played Crouch on the left and Voronin on the right of Torres. If you're going to play that formation Crouch has to be in the middle of the 3

walshki

whatawaster wrote: »

well he already spends most of his time out wide anyway. He wouldn't be playing as a winger, just as part of a three man forward line. I personally wouldn't play him there i'd prefer Kuyt, but i'm simply suggesting it as an option.

'I'd prefer Kuyt' with reference to Torres doesn't make sense in any context (even if you mean that Torres would be playing in the middle with Kuyt wide of him). Kuyt in any position at this stage really doesn't make much sense.

whatawaster

walshki wrote: »

'I'd prefer Kuyt' with reference to Torres doesn't make sense in any context (even if you mean that Torres would be playing in the middle with Kuyt wide of him). Kuyt in any position at this stage really doesn't make much sense.

I said a few posts ago that I believe Kuyt-Torres-Babel is our best forward line. Torres can't be in two positions at once, ergo i'd prefer Kuyt to Torres out wide.

Mr Alan

everyone leave Kuyt alone!!!!

whatawaster

Mr Alan wrote: »

everyone leave Kuyt alone!!!!

agreed. I'm going to come out and say it - I think he'll come good.

Mr Alan

you have no idea the hellgate of abuse you have just opened for yourself!

prendy

agreed. I'm going to come out and say it - I think he'll come good.

DO YOU SEE THIS HAPPENING ANYTIME SOON???

Villain

I have to say I like Kuyt, he's not the type of Striker thats going to score very often but does a great job of creating space for his striking partner I don't think I know any other striker that makes as many runs in a game as Kuyt, obviously as a striker he needs to score more, but I think he helps Torres a lot when he plays alongside him, theres more to being a striker than shooting you know.

whatawaster

prendy wrote: »

DO YOU SEE THIS HAPPENING ANYTIME SOON???

WHY ARE YOU USING BIG LETTERS?

Yes, I do, i know he is brutally short on confidence as has been for most of the season, but i think he is a very good player, i thought he was excellent for us last year and after the Villa and chelsea games this season everyone was praising his movement and the understanding he was forming with Torres. But then he had a run out of the side and the goals dried up big time. But i'm convinced he'll be an important player for us. Not a 20 goal a season man, but important nonetheless.

herbieflowers

he's a high-energy, hard-working player, I think he works well with Torres

Jazzy

my mate had a bet with another mate that Kuyt was good. he handed over the fiver a month ago

Dub13

I am getting a lot of PMs and emails about Irishkop trips so here is our seclude for the rest of the season we will hopefully be adding a few Euro games to this list.



Trips planned irishkop on tour

2 Feb - Sunderland Sold out
23rd Feb - Middlesbrough Sould Out
15th March - Reading (sat) 3
12th April - Blackburn Rovers 3pm (sat)
3rd May Man city (sat 3)


providing these games are not changed days if they are on saturday a trip will be arranged

Mr Alan

your mate made a foolish decision.

his bet was that kuyt was good?

he a quality player, not world class, and never will be, but he is a very good player.

edit-barnsley in the draw,sweet

Melion

Barnsley at home in the 5th Round

Melion

Dub13 wrote: »

I am getting a lot of PMs and emails about Irishkop trips so here is our seclude for the rest of the season we will hopefully be adding a few Euro games to this list.



Trips planned irishkop on tour

2 Feb - Sunderland Sold out
23rd Feb - Middlesbrough Sould Out
15th March - Reading (sat) 3
12th April - Blackburn Rovers 3pm (sat)
3rd May Man city (sat 3)


providing these games are not changed days if they are on saturday a trip will be arranged

Could i put 2 names down for the Reading game?

oochie

Eidur Gudjohnsen is being linked with a move to Bolton according to BBC transfer gossip:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/gossip_and_transfers/7212538.stm

Anyone else think he would be an ideal signing for liverpool, playing just behind Torres. Personally i think he is very intelligent and creative and could certainly do a better job at supporting Torres than Kuyt, Voronin or Crouch have been doing to date..

redspider

mike65 wrote: »

RedSpider, I think the interest on the deal will swallow up about 25 million PA, ie one really good player!

Yup, I have no idea what rate of financing they agreed on, but a rate of 6% on a loan of 350m ukp costs 21 million ukp per annum to service, and that's the interest alone. That's one very good player.

Liverpool FC Ltd will stay in debt with these owners until the company exits and their plan is to do so only once the revenues have been increased with the new stadium completed (unless they bail before that because they cant repeat a re-finance). Until they sell off, LFC Ltd will be held back by one good player every season. Its more than enough to keep Liverpool back a place or two in the league (if not 3) and I would be surprised that during their time, all other things being equal, if Liverpool could manage to win the league. There will be continuing pressure to reduce the squad size and costs. Liverpool on the footballing side will have to get by less money comparitively. It doesnt meen that success, even league success, is impossible though. It just means that it is about 1 Torres-per season harder. Over 5 years, about the length of time it will take to get that stadium up and running, that is 5 good players, half a team.

Redspider

Dub13

Melion wrote: »

Could i put 2 names down for the Reading game?

You will have to do that on Irishkop,I am just putting it up here to fill you all in.

mike65

Liverpool v Barnsley tricky. At least its at home Barnsleys pitch is proberbly a bit old skool at this time of year.

Mike.

prendy

nice draw in the cup and with either manu or aresanl gone it looks like a very winnable comp!

PHB

Redspider, I think you are assuming that the money that is normally gone to interest, would be left in the club. A debt free business would just take that extra money for profits.

gucci

On paper its a nice home draw for liverpool, but we all seen how we will actually need to come out and take them seriously and work for our win no matter who were playing. hopefully its a lesson learned. i was actually hoping for a premiership team this time around.....oh well we should win anyways!and man u or arenal will be out which is a positive

redspider

mike65 wrote: »

Liverpool v Barnsley tricky

Hi Mike, I think its one of the best draws we could have gotten, and certaubly gives us a straight path to the next round if we play as expected. It could have been a lot worse - one of the other big teams away could have proved 'fatal'.

Redspider

redspider

PHB wrote: »

Redspider, I think you are assuming that the money that is normally gone to interest, would be left in the club. A debt free business would just take that extra money for profits.

A debt-free club/business would have the option of leaving the money in the club (and using it) or paying a dividend from the profits. There is no necessity on a debt-free club to extract the same level of money out of the club. That is one of the advantages that Chelsea have as they are being bank-rolled rather than having to pay-off debt (Over a long period, this is akin to an interest free loan). Arsenal, Man Utd and Liverpool are paying off debts. Liverpools has de-facto jumped from 80m to 350m. I'm not happy about that nor should any Liverpool fan be. I dont know what Man Utd's debt is but they are paying theirs off and have substantially more operational profits available to do do, and Arsenal likewise although at a lessor level.

With the 350m in debt, Liverpool will have to pay the interest (21m or whatever pa), they will have no choice. With a debt-free club, you can use that to invest rather than spend on interest payments. The key to all these clubs/businesses is the ability to pay off their debt whilst maintaining success on the pitch with some reasonably high level spending. Liverpool in their current financial set-up will have the lowest level of money available to them I expect going forward based on Income - Expenses - Debt Payments in comparison with Assets - Debts.

Liverpool's financial position has become decidely worse with the 'corporate raid' of Gillet and Hicks.

Redspider

ps: I notice more Americans have bought Derby - is it easier to get credit over in the US - oh yeah, sub-prime.

PHB

Absolutely, no doubt, but I don't think you can say that it will likely to go to transfers, especially considering the fact that before they took over, the spending was of similar level.

zing

redspider wrote: »

Yup, I have no idea what rate of financing they agreed on, but a rate of 6% on a loan of 350m ukp costs 21 million ukp per annum to service, and that's the interest alone.

I would imagine the rate is lower than that - 6% is close to what banks would give you to buy a car. Also there's a couple of things to remember in relation to this.
+ it's just an 18 month deal so the interest on it over that period will be relatively low all things considered. I don't like thinking about what's going to happen beyond 18 months tbh.
+ it's possible the club will only draw down on it's part of the loan as & when required which should also help minimise interest payments. Alternatively if the club does draw down on the whole lot immediately the money should sit in it's bank accounts earning a few pence (literally most likely) in interest until it's needed. Again - this interest should be offset against the loan payments.

One thing is sure is the club will be paying the whole lot one way or another. Kop holdings doesn't appear to have any other means of revenue so it's most likely that the club will be paying it a dividend in order for it to meet it's requirements for the loans.

Kimbot

So does anyone thing we are going to sign anyone else this window if so what position is going to get sorted?

Stky10

jonny24ie wrote: »

So does anyone thing we are going to sign anyone else this window if so what position is going to get sorted?

No

http://www.premierleague.com/page/Headlines/0,,12306~1221659,00.html

With the financial position of the club, and the supposed takeover negociations ongoing, its very unlikely to happen.

Kimbot

Stky10 wrote: »

No

http://www.premierleague.com/page/Headlines/0,,12306~1221659,00.html

With the financial position of the club, and the supposed takeover negociations ongoing, its very unlikely to happen.

Dam it. I thought we might have even made one more signing but I guess we ain't gonna do anything until the summer now. :mad:

jesus_thats_gre

The squad that is there should be doing better and players should be performing at a higher level.. The squad that is there was expected to keep in touch with the top 3 and easily finish in the top 4.. Adding new players won't address what is wrong..

~Rebel~

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

The squad that is there should be doing better and players should be performing at a higher level.. The squad that is there was expected to keep in touch with the top 3 and easily finish in the top 4.. Adding new players won't address what is wrong..

indeed. need to sort ourselves out in house first rather then trying to paper over the cracks.

Incidentally it sounds like Woodgate was got for about 7mill. If thats true, we should really have been involved in that as our 1 CB buy, would have been a far safer bet then Skrtel, top top quality at a great price. Carra and Woodgate would have been one of the best partnerships in the prem, with Agger as very very capable backup/pushing for first team.

mike65

Yeah but Woodgate plays 12 games a season.

Mike.

~Rebel~

mike65 wrote: »

Yeah but Woodgate plays 12 games a season.

Mike.

True, but with Agger also being pretty class, once they co-ordinated their injuries, we'd be fine Would have liked a gamble on him at that price though, his injury problems seem to be lessoning.

Tusky

---

Reina

Finnan--Carragher--Agger--Arbeloa

x

---

Gerrard--Mascherano--Babel

---

Torres--x

In the summer, I feel that these are the two most important buys. Preferably a winger that can play on both sides and can come into the team straight away. Someone who is established and not just 'potential'. Same for the striker position. What two players (realistically) do you think we should go for in the summer ? If we play the formation below we only really need one player. An established goal scoring wing forward that could be used on the wing or up front in a 4-4-2 would be nice as well as in the attacking trio of the 4-3-3/ 4-5-1.

---

Reina

Finnan--Carragher--Agger--Arbeloa

---

Mascherano--Alonso

---

Gerrard
---x

---

Babel

---

Torres

Melion

David Silva

Simple As

Guy:Incognito

mike65 wrote: »

Yeah but Woodgate plays 12 games a season.

Mike.

Think it was in the paper today that he's played 197 league games in 10 years, so he's good for just over half of each season.:)

el rabitos

Melion wrote: »

David Silva

Simple As

silva is far from being the complete player, still very raw, worse off that babel in that department i reckon.

besides, he's a name on the european scene so that means alot of cash. cash we dont have.

jesus_thats_gre

Tusky wrote: »

---

Reina

Finnan--Carragher--Agger--Arbeloa

x

---

Gerrard--Mascherano--Babel

---

Torres--x

Would agree with 95% of that with the exception of Babel. Besides pace, I have not seen anything that would indicate that he is an effective out and out winger. As such, I would be changing to this:

---

Reina

Finnan--Carragher--Agger--Arbeloa

x

---

Gerrard--Mascherano

---

x

---

Torres--x[/QUOTE]

Tusky wrote: »

---

Reina

Finnan--Carragher--Agger--Arbeloa

---

Mascherano--Alonso

---

Gerrard
---x

---

Babel

---

Torres

The same would apply to this, 95% is bang on with the exception of the right sided attacked. I think this sort of position is ideal for Yossi and feel he would excel here.



Saying all that though, it basically boils down to out and out wingers and another striker..

Dont be at yourself

Looking at the buys Rafa has made in Benayoun, Babel and Macherano/Lucas, it seems obvious to me that he's gearing the team up for 4-2-3-1, as he played with success at Valencia.

In Alonso, Macherano and Lucas, we have three very capable holding/defensive midfielders competing for two positions. And importantly, this frees Gerrard up for a more advanced role, which is his stronger position.

In Gerrard, Babel, Benayoun, Kuyt and Voronin we have 5 players (of variable quality) who are capable, and perhaps best at, playing as advanced attacking midfielders. None of these players can be described as wingers, and using them in a 4-4-2 is generally acknowledged as a waste! 3 of those 5 playing narrow off a lone front man in Torres or Crouch is surely our most creative team, and the formation which best suits those players.

Kewell can also play 'in the hole', leaving Pennant as the only player who'd be warming the bench on a regular basis under that system.

How can it be improved? Given the choice of one player? The afformentioned David Silva, or another attacking midfielder who can play right across the pitch would be desirable. Aimar would be a risk, but it could be very rewarding. Perhaps Bremen's Diego?

With Finnan not getting any younger, and the left back still a problem position, I'd love to see top-quality attack-minded full-backs brought in. Valencia's Miguel is decent but no spring chicken, Philip Lahm would be a great buy. Not too sure about Danny Alves.

PHB

Has any team ever won the premierleague without utilising width?

Mr Alan

First time for everything PHB

~Rebel~

PHB wrote: »

Has any team ever won the premierleague without utilising width?

whats being proposed would be pretty similer to something like Chelsea with Robben and Duff, or Robben and SWP.

PHB

Is it really?
Duff and Robben, and SWP, are classic out and out pacey wingers. Babel perhaps is that, so is Pennant, but Yossi certainly isn't. Kuyt and Voronin certainly are not. Furthermore the reason that system worked so well was because of Drogba.

I think NBM is right in terms of the style of system Rafa seems to be looking to create, but it is a much more continental system in terms of the wide players being much more prone to going central, and the target man being more of a link up player than a classic target man. It's also a much more possession retaining formation, which I'd imagine is what Rafa favours.

Vokes

I think Benitez's 4-2-3-1 is a little different from Mourinho's 4-5-1 / 4-3-3 ? Maybe somewhat narrower?

leninbenjamin

PHB wrote: »

Is it really?
Duff and Robben, and SWP, are classic out and out pacey wingers. Babel perhaps is that, so is Pennant, but Yossi certainly isn't. Kuyt and Voronin certainly are not. Furthermore the reason that system worked so well was because of Drogba.

I think NBM is right in terms of the style of system Rafa seems to be looking to create, but it is a much more continental system in terms of the wide players being much more prone to going central, and the target man being more of a link up player than a classic target man. It's also a much more possession retaining formation, which I'd imagine is what Rafa favours.

Maureen deployed Duff and Robben more in the continental style, they played much narrower than they would naturally (well Duffers did anyway) and kept coming central in support of the main striker. It was pretty much the continental system your taking about there... more that the Prem forces it to be played a much higher temp meaning possession isn't held as much.

redspider

PHB wrote: »

Has any team ever won the premierleague without utilising width?

Chelsea would fit that bracket in the Robben/Duff era, as their wingers who had pace didnt stay out wide in their 4-3-3 formation and provide crosses from wide but instead they would cut in and angle in towards goal at speed. There are probably more examples, such as Arsenal.

By the way, in relation to Man Utd's debt I came across this:

The club's after-tax profits were stg£42.3m. However, this is just over the stg£42 million required for the annual interest payments of 8 per cent on a stg£525 million loan secured against the club's assets by Red Football, the Glazer-owned holding company. Malcolm Glazer and his family also have to cover a further stg£20 million annually on another stg£135 million in borrowing.

Redspider

PHB

I think there's a big difference between players who cut inside, like Duff or Robben, and Ronaldo aswell btw as a current example, and players who are naturally tending towards the inside.

The differences between Pennant and Yossi would be the prime example. During Mourinho they certainly played more narrowly than they normally did, especially without the ball, but if you imagine that system with players like Kuyt and Yossi instead, you can see how it is significantly different. Not just because of the pace (and keep in mind Chelsea scored a lot on the break) but in terms of styles of play. When you take into account the differences between Drogba and Torres, you can see how this will be more different again.

leninbenjamin

PHB wrote: »

I think there's a big difference between players who cut inside, like Duff or Robben, and Ronaldo aswell btw as a current example, and players who are naturally tending towards the inside.

The differences between Pennant and Yossi would be the prime example.

ok, maybe this shows my lack of knowledge but Pennant cuts inside? i honestly cannot remember a game i've seen involving Pennant where he cuts inside successfully.

but Duff and Robben did more than just cut inside, they used their pace to play through the centre at times on the break, and Robben much more so than Duff was able to get into the hole and do a bit of damage. in fact the biggest difference between the likes of Yossi and these guys is that Yossi has no pace, more a failing on Yossi's part rather than a different style as i see it.