Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

whatawaster

PHB wrote: »

I think there's a big difference between players who cut inside, like Duff or Robben, and Ronaldo aswell btw as a current example, and players who are naturally tending towards the inside.

The differences between Pennant and Yossi would be the prime example. During Mourinho they certainly played more narrowly than they normally did, especially without the ball, but if you imagine that system with players like Kuyt and Yossi instead, you can see how it is significantly different. Not just because of the pace (and keep in mind Chelsea scored a lot on the break) but in terms of styles of play. When you take into account the differences between Drogba and Torres, you can see how this will be more different again.

Torres has a lot of Drogba's qualities though. He's strong, pretty good in the air, quick and he has better control and dribbling abilities. Obviously not as strong and physical, but he's only going to get better andI definitely think he'd be effective in the central role on his own. I think Babel is made for one of the wide positions - probably the left one with him cutting inside.

PHB

I think you are being harsh on Drogba. His control is top notch, some of his flicks have been magical. And compared to Drogba, Torres is like a dwarf in the air. While Torres is pretty decent, Drogba is utterly amazing in the air.

There's no doubt that Torres can make that central role his own, but I just think it would be in a completely different style to Drogba.

gucci

leninbenjamin wrote: »

ok, maybe this shows my lack of knowledge but Pennant cuts inside? i honestly cannot remember a game i've seen involving Pennant where he cuts inside successfully.

well said. Champions league final last season, how many attempts did he make to turn back on his left foot when in a position to cross with his right?

redspider

zing wrote: »

I would imagine the rate is lower than that - 6% is close to what banks would give you to buy a car.

+ it's just an 18 month deal so the interest on it over that period will be relatively low all things considered.

+ it's possible the club will only draw down on it's part of the loan as & when required

One thing is sure is the club will be paying the whole lot one way or another.

Well Man Utd are paying 8% on their 525 m loan, so if anything the 6% guesstimate was conservative. It will be detailed I would expect in the accounts for the financial year Jul-07 to Jun-08 so we'll know then but that's a long way off.

18 months or not, the interest level would still be the same on a pa basis and the level used for most corporate loans depending onthe level of risk, gearing in the business, etc. Wachovia and RBS aint gonna give any discounts. 18-month money is similar to 2-year money markets, and the loaners will be seeking premiums in comparison to government-backed market rates, etc. There is still a credit crunch, so this was not a good time to go seeking funds. Corporate bond rates are more likely what should be compared rather than car loans, and these are in and around the 6-10% range I think.

They had already drawn down 300m in the 1st loan to buy the club so I'd expect the 350m loan is a draw-down straightaway. The working capital will be on deposit somewhere and will gain a few shekels in interest, as will any income.

> One thing is sure is the club will be paying the whole lot one way or another.

agreed.

At the end of Jun 2006 I understand that Arsenal's debt was ukp 262m. I cant seem to find the figure as it stood at Jun 2007 for some reason but I thought it was higher. But on the loan situation, Arsenal are ahead of us, have their new stadium up and running and have lower debt (even before our stadium is built). I can only see the financial situation keeping Liverpool at the back of the top-4 pack for many years, money-wise at any rate.

redspider

ps: there was no need for us to get Woodgate

leninbenjamin

PHB wrote: »

There's no doubt that Torres can make that central role his own, but I just think it would be in a completely different style to Drogba.

they aren't as different as you make out to be honest, the bulk of the differences lie in how their respective managers have sought to deploy them. They are both at their best in a counter attacking formation in my opinion. if anything Droga's ability in the air has been over exploited by Chelsea, i'd say Drogs would have had a better strike rate if they made life a bit easier for him and played it into his feet a bit more.

prendy

is there any point comparing duff/robben of a few years ago witht the wingers we have...theres no comparrison.
them two back 2-3 years ago were unreal and we havnt a player close to that on the wing IMO.
the main difference is they had the ability to come inside aswell as beat players on the wing..we dont have wingers witht that natural ability to go past players and cut inside.

zing

redspider wrote: »

Well Man Utd are paying 8% on their 525 m loan, so if anything the 6% guesstimate was conservative.

Fair 'nuff - I'd seen someone mention figures in the 4.x % range in relation to this loan but can't remember where and they've not been confirmed anywhere else so I'll assume they were plucked from the air originally.

They had already drawn down 300m in the 1st loan to buy the club so I'd expect the 350m loan is a draw-down straightaway.

Wasn't the original loan for 220m ? 180m ish to buy the club and the other 40m to cover the existing debt. And boy have they covered it - you'd be doing well to find it hidden under all this new debt.

event

leninbenjamin wrote: »

ok, maybe this shows my lack of knowledge but Pennant cuts inside? i honestly cannot remember a game i've seen involving Pennant where he cuts inside successfully.

no, i think he was saying that benayoun cuts inside wheras pennant doesnt

~Rebel~

PHB wrote: »

Is it really?
Duff and Robben, and SWP, are classic out and out pacey wingers. Babel perhaps is that, so is Pennant, but Yossi certainly isn't. Kuyt and Voronin certainly are not. Furthermore the reason that system worked so well was because of Drogba.

Well, personally i would have seen Kuyt, Voro and Yossi in this system to be used more as the central attacker. They would get used in the wide position if we didn't get a winger, but i dont think anyone would argue that they wouldn't be out of position.

For me, the 2 wide spots would be used by the likes of Babel, Pennant, David Silva (i wish), maybe Benzema or Malouda, that type of player. Pennant there would be the odd one out as he doesn't cut in as well as the rest, which pool kind of need now to be getting goals from areas besides Torres and Gerrard, but if Crouch is the main striker on the day, pennants the one you want.


<edit> Oh yeah, and Momo is officially gone, for 8.2mill

Juventus have completed the signing of Liverpool midfielder Mohamed Sissoko for £8.2million.

Claudio Ranieri has been chasing the Mali international for the majority of the January transfer window after it became clear Reds boss Rafa Benitez was open to offers.

Sissoko, who is currently on Africa Cup of Nations duty, joined Liverpool in 2005 in a £5.6m move from Valencia.

The sale of Sissoko is expected to provide Benitez with additional funds to finance a permanent transfer for Mascherano.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11669_3087895,00.html

DeadSkin

Momo's deal is done. Looks like a great deal

whatawaster

he's gonna be a revalation in Italy, i can feel it.

DeadSkin

Yeah I get that feelin' too.
He has a great engine on him and a good tackler, shame he couldn't pass the ball!!!!!

Villain

Seems a bit of step down from the 12 million that was been talked about.

prendy

seems like a good deal for a players who wasnt getting first team football.
should secure masc now with the help of that cash.:)

Dub13

Villain wrote: »

Seems a bit of step down from the 12 million that was been talked about.

Not as much of a step down as his performance's for us.;)

Melion

Villain wrote: »

Seems a bit of step down from the 12 million that was been talked about.

I think it was €12m that was being thrown about, not £

zing

Melion wrote: »

I think it was €12m that was being thrown about, not £

Correct - figures doing the rounds were €12 or €13m.

Jazzy

Liverpool's biggest problem in attacking is the fact that they don't use the width of the pitch.
If you play with that natural midfield triangle of Masch-Alonso-Gerrard then you are essentially going to need 3 up top in a style not too dissimilar from barcelona. but whereas barca have ronni, henry, eto'o and messi... we have yossi, kuyt, babel and torres. in my mind, when you are competing in the PL and are looking to win it, some of those players just arent good enough to warrant that formation.
The rest of this season as far as im concerned (in the league) is about damage control. get 4th place and stop dropping stupid points should be our goal in the league now. teams like villa and everton have proved they can cut it and dont need another invitation to gun for that elusive CL place. In this regard, I firmly believe we should move gerrard out to the right and play in a 4-4-2 that will maximize our main threats. Gerrard of course will be given that free roaming role so we will still see him score and team up with torres. masch + alonso are effectively our Gattuso and Pirlo and will add that solidity to the middle of the pitch and hopefully that will mean less stupid goals conceded (agger and skrtel might help there too).

For next season I still want to see 4-4-2 football from liverpool, in this regard it means that our primary signings should be 1 if not 2 wingers and a striker that can play off torres and provide flick ons and the like. Someone in the mold of Drogba would be perfect for us and with a new wide man (someone with ideas and can use the width of the pitch) we could finally be an effective force and start scoring more on the break.
As it stands now, when we are under pressure to score we have this awful habit of drifting the ball towards the middle come the final third of the pitch and normally the opponents defenders just have to slide a loose ball away (recent Villa game this happened far too much). with proper wingers we would have far more options and we would also be far more effective on the break, stretching defenders and then allowing torres to do his stuff.

basically, get wingers and a striker and i will be happy
as for who... cash might be the biggest obstacle here

Melion

If Berbatov is to leave Spurs we should be at the top of the queue for him. Torres and Berba would be unbelievable together.

Dub13

Melion wrote: »

If Berbatov is to leave Spurs we should be at the top of the queue for him. Torres and Berba would be unbelievable together.

And were would the $$$$ come from...?Berbatov would cost a lot.

mike65

uventus have signed Liverpool midfielder Mohamed Sissoko on a five-year deal for £8.2m, the Serie A club said today. The fee could rise by €2m depending on Juventus's performance.

Thats 11.4m euro + 2 million. 13.4 million is almost 10 million pounds eventually. Happy!

Mike.

zing

Dub13 wrote: »

And were would the $$$$ come from...?Berbatov would cost a lot.

sure good old tommy hicks will just tap his local money lender for a few million. He's great like that - never says no to borrowing a few quid more.

whatawaster

I'm not too keen on Berbatov to be honest. I know he can be sublime, but he can also be terrible and at least half of the time i watch spurs he hardly moves a muscle, glares at his teammates for misplacing a pass and generally lets keane do all the work while he gets the plaudits. Imo Keane would be a much better signing. Someone to play off Torres - a Rooney type player

kaimera

I actually agree about Keane. He may be a lazy git for us internationally but you can't fault him in the PL.

Melion

Dub13 wrote: »

And were would the $$$$ come from...?Berbatov would cost a lot.

Crouch - 12m
Kuyt - 8m
Carson - 10m

That alone would pay for him i think.

whatawaster

Melion wrote: »

Crouch - 12m
Kuyt - 8m
Carson - 10m

That alone would pay for him i think.

Ok there are better and younger players, players with better attitudes, who we could get for less than that. He is never in a million years worth 30m

PHB

Berbatov is not worth 30 million. Too old and not of that quality. Eto is the type of player that goes for 30 million. Berbatov should be about 20 million.

Well, personally i would have seen Kuyt, Voro and Yossi in this system to be used more as the central attacker. They would get used in the wide position if we didn't get a winger, but i dont think anyone would argue that they wouldn't be out of position.

But if Rafa was thinking like that, it wouldn't make a huge amount of sense, especially due to Gerrard. Unless he sees Gerrard is a more holding role in the future, there's really no reason to have any more than one person covering him there.

whatawaster

PHB wrote: »

Berbatov is not worth 30 million. Too old and not of that quality. Eto is the type of player that goes for 30 million. Berbatov should be about 20 million.

I think he'll go for around 20 if he does go, but for me that's still too high. 15 tops. If Liverpool were to spend 30 million on a striker it would have to be one that will be around for years and have huge potential - a la Torres. Aguero, Benzema are the only young strikers I can think of in that bracket.

Villain

I don't think too many clubs will pay 10 million for Carson, Villa are been linked with another keeper from the MSL who would cost about 2 million, I think if Liverpool look for 10 million they will be keeping him.

Melion

I didnt say he was worth 30m or that he would go for that much. I was just saying that 30m would get him.

Dub13

I think you will find the Sissoko money could forum part of the cash needed for Mascherano.

Melion

Dub13 wrote: »

I think you will find the Sissoko money could forum part of the cash needed for Mascherano.

Well thats a definite.

Mr Alan

When it comes to people slating Berbas attitude (sure i used to do it too)....

so he glares at people after a misplaced pass?
he doesnt track back enough?

The teams who have won the PL always have players like this...Henry,Drogba,Ronaldo,Ruud etc etc.

We have plenty of honest professionals who put in work all over the pitch and who's attitude cant be faulted. We have been exceptionally lucky in picking up Torres who is world class (anyone who wants to debate this will be ignored, not in the mood), and who ALSO has a great work ethic and attitude. Now its time to get some players who may not track back to win the ball always, who may sulk occasssionally-but even through all this, they will always be capable of doing something magic.

i've thought for quite a long time, that as a team we are too "nice/honest/hardworking", thats all well and good and something fans can be proud off, but now we need to add some "class/creativity" to that.

Berbatov fits the bill, as does Eto'o and numerous other players around Europe.

prendy

sorry al but i still think he's overpriced..maybe if he was 23 then ya but not a hope of paying anything over 17-18million for him.and even at that i think there are better players out there.

Unearthly

Berbatov is a class act. He is worldclass

30 million sounds steep but it would be a transfer between 2 premiership teams and looking at players like Darren Bent going for 16 million it's not that much for him.

whatawaster

Mr Alan wrote: »

When it comes to people slating Berbas attitude (sure i used to do it too)....

so he glares at people after a misplaced pass?
he doesnt track back enough?

The teams who have won the PL always have players like this...Henry,Drogba,Ronaldo,Ruud etc etc.

We have plenty of honest professionals who put in work all over the pitch and who's attitude cant be faulted. We have been exceptionally lucky in picking up Torres who is world class (anyone who wants to debate this will be ignored, not in the mood), and who ALSO has a great work ethic and attitude. Now its time to get some players who may not track back to win the ball always, who may sulk occasssionally-but even through all this, they will always be capable of doing something magic.

i've thought for quite a long time, that as a team we are too "nice/honest/hardworking", thats all well and good and something fans can be proud off, but now we need to add some "class/creativity" to that.

Berbatov fits the bill, as does Eto'o and numerous other players around Europe.

Eto'o and Berbatov cannot be compared. One is probably the best striker in world football, and has a great attitude on the pitch (his hassling of defenders is Rush-like) and the other is a very good, though more limited centre-forward, with an attitude i'm positive Rafa won't go for. I do agree that Berbatov would add plenty to our attack. However I do feel we shouldn't spend a penny over 15 million on him and I would rather look at the younger options available - Aguero and Benzema for example, who may be out of our range (though i hope not)

missingtime

Mr Alan wrote: »

so he glares at people after a misplaced pass?
he doesnt track back enough?

The teams who have won the PL always have players like this...Henry,Drogba,Ronaldo,Ruud etc etc.

We have plenty of honest professionals who put in work all over the pitch and who's attitude cant be faulted. We have been exceptionally lucky in picking up Torres who is world class (anyone who wants to debate this will be ignored, not in the mood), and who ALSO has a great work ethic and attitude. Now its time to get some players who may not track back to win the ball always, who may sulk occasssionally-but even through all this, they will always be capable of doing something magic.

i've thought for quite a long time, that as a team we are too "nice/honest/hardworking", thats all well and good and something fans can be proud off, but now we need to add some "class/creativity" to that.

Berbatov fits the bill, as does Eto'o and numerous other players around Europe.

Totally agree with this. We definitely need a, not so much selfish or lazy player, but someone who will stay in the opposition half waiting for the break.

I would say though, Benitez would not be the type of manager to allow this.

whatawaster

Unearthly wrote: »

Berbatov is a class act. He is worldclass

30 million sounds steep but it would be a transfer between 2 premiership teams and looking at players like Darren Bent going for 16 million it's not that much for him.

He is not world-class. Eto'o is world class. Rooney is world class. Drogba is world class. I believe Torres is world class. I'm afraid Berbatov is on a tier somewhere below that.

30million is a ridiculous price for him. 10m more than Torres. You're having a laugh.

whatawaster

missingtime wrote: »

Totally agree with this. We definitely need a, not so much selfish or lazy player, but someone who will stay in the opposition half waiting for the break.

I would say though, Benitez would not be the type of manager to allow this.

I wonder how he'd react to being told he has to defend corners.

Melion

What is all this rubbish about 15m being too much because of his age. He is 27 tomorrow, someone like him could easily play at the top level for another 8 years, he is very similar to Bergkamp in that way.

25m for him would be worth it.

PHB

I don't think anyone thinks that Berbatov wouldn't add to Liverpool, or United, or Arsenal. But he's just not worth 30 million. It's ludicrous prices for a player of his age. 20 million I think is a reasonable price for him, but if they have that sort of money to spend it should be on younger talents as already suggested, like Benzema, or Aguero.

It's a different age these days. Players like Bergkamp (I still can't spell his name) and Sheringham are a rarity, and Berbatov isn't even like him. He often uses his pace very well. He's realistically got at most 5 years more at the top level. That's 6 million a year if you pay 30 million. Not including wages. There's no way he's worth that! The key issue here is that he has no resale value.

30 million for somebody like Rooney is much more realistic. If he stays at the club, he is gona be there for like 10 years so 3 million a year. If not, he'll be sold on, if not for a profit then for a similar amount.
That's the real question, is he worth 6 million a year to Liverpool? I think the answer is clearly no.

Unearthly

Melion wrote: »

What is all this rubbish about 15m being too much because of his age. He is 27 tomorrow, someone like him could easily play at the top level for another 8 years, he is very similar to Bergkamp in that way.

25m for him would be worth it.

Agreed.

Can't believe people don't rate him as worldcass :eek:

His touch, control, vision, link up play. Such a pleasure to watch.

zing

Dub13 wrote: »

I think you will find the Sissoko money could forum part of the cash needed for Mascherano.

Not sure how true this section:

This was rumoured some time ago, but The Liverpool Way fanzine say they’ve now had confirmation that it’s true. The £17m covers everything - the fees to the owners of the player, and the player’s wages - for five years. It doesn’t even have to be paid up-front. The whole amount can be spread over five years, at a rate of under £3.5m per year. Mascherano’s owners will get a fee of a few million - at most £4m if Mascherano’s wages are £50k per week.

from
http://www.anfieldroad.com/news/200801282804/be-wary-of-hicks-spin-as-he-fights-for-reds-support.html/
is but if it is to be believed - and it has been widely rumoured for quite some time - then the upfront costs for Masch would be very low relatively speaking.

missingtime

whatawaster wrote: »

I wonder how he'd react to being told he has to defend corners.

Exactly. Definitely time for a "controversial" player - maybe they fall down a bit to easy, sulk, have their off days and try 10 step overs before knocking the ball out for a throw.

But damit if they score enough and change the team I'd be happy.

Carra would kick the **** out of them tho

Melion

PHB wrote: »

I don't think anyone thinks that Berbatov wouldn't add to Liverpool, or United, or Arsenal. But he's just not worth 30 million. It's ludicrous prices for a player of his age. 20 million I think is a reasonable price for him, but if they have that sort of money to spend it should be on younger talents as already suggested, like Benzema, or Aguero.

His age???? He is 27, players hit their peaks between 25-30

whatawaster

zing wrote: »

Not sure how true this section:
from
http://www.anfieldroad.com/news/200801282804/be-wary-of-hicks-spin-as-he-fights-for-reds-support.html/
is but if it is to be believed - and it has been widely rumoured for quite some time - then the upfront costs for Masch would be very low relatively speaking.

that's almost too good to be true. Assuming he is paid 40k a week (that's 10m over 5 years) then the player himself only costs 7m.

Important question though - do we own the player once his contract is up or can we sell him anytime we want?

yom 1

Rafa reckons deal for mascherano is only a matter of time now:)

PHB

I think its quite a reasonable thing to believe that report, because Fergie was quoted a while back saying that he thought he had gotten Tevez on the cheap, which realistically can't be more than 20 million. Maybe MSI were just looking to cash in quickly on both of these players.

who gets post 10000?

Dub13

10,000 Post.....

machiavellianme

Hmmm the internet didnt end.