Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

An Citeog · 31-01-2008 2:31am

If this fan's takeover does go ahead (which I don't believe it will), where would Liverpool get the money for the new stadium and/or new players?

It seems very simplistic to me and I really don't believe it'll work.

Paul Tergat · 31-01-2008 6:18am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is a sensible post. Agree. My little outburst against Gerrard was a bit ridiculous to say the least.

Shouldn't really say too much more but what im going to say is that a lot of tonights comments have been kneejerk. don't jump on the back of your manager or even call for your best players to go....i've heard a lot about this 5 year plan so let it play out and see what Rafa does then.

a major problem here for you pool fans is these owners being quite outspoken shall we say. When the Glazers took over UTD i was worried (im a UTD fan) but i must say they've kept quiet and backed their manager. Pool must do the same. they should keep it quiet and give the manager the funds he needs. it's been pointed out that Masch is a must buy. more must follow for pool to challenge.

there is a nucleus for a good team there, it just needs fine tuning. you're only 3 or 4 of players away from a challenge i reckon...

EDIT: its stoopid to even contemplate a fans takeover for a club the size of Lpools!!!

Mr Alan · 31-01-2008 9:16am

An Citeog wrote: »

If this fan's takeover does go ahead (which I don't believe it will), where would Liverpool get the money for the new stadium and/or new players?

It seems very simplistic to me and I really don't believe it'll work.

I have doubts too, but it would certainly be interesting times ahead if it did.

I would imagine the stadium would be financed the same way that the yanks are doind it, by the board appointed getting loans based on future income?

also to the person who said that Liverpool couldnt get the amount of people needed? I'd imagine some backers will be making up a lot more than the 5 grand proposed as the initial fee.

be interesting to see how they reckon we'd go about it.

Mr Alan · 31-01-2008 9:22am

kryogen wrote: »

why is it that when i say the things that have been said about gerrard and carragher in the last couple of pages i get called a troll??? is it ok to tell the truth again on this thread now??

because you go about it in a more trollish way?:D

kryogen wrote: »

anyway, i dont watch the scousers so i didnt see this game

therefore any opinion you have on them is invalid surely?

kryogen wrote: »

i wouldnt be suprised if it was another petulant action on his part, and can people finally admit carra isnt as good as you all thought? that he is being exposed in a more attacking team this year??

I'm failing to remember any other petulant actions on his part in recent times?

Carragher is as good as i thought, he just has difficulty playing alongside Hypia as he needs to do running,for 2 people! I like the way you call us a more attacking team and reckon this has "exposed" carragher as an average defender?reckon its probably more to do with one of our first choice defenders and the lad carragher played with all last year being injured?!

but i dont expect you to know or mention this, and you dont watch "the scousers" but yet are a decent authority on how good carragher is?!

shotamoose · 31-01-2008 9:38am

The fan buyout plan is a very interesting idea and I'd be potentially up for taking part (more so if the minimum was less than £5k!), but I just wonder how it would work in practice. Surely it would take a long time to amass £350m or £500m or whatever it would take to buy out the Yanks, and anyway wouldn't they just name their price knowing that they were selling to a 'desperate to buy' party? Maybe buying a 15% share or something would be a better place to start.

shotamoose · 31-01-2008 9:42am

Incidentally if this does go ahead it would be interesting to see where most of the small investors come from. I'd predict a big proportion from East Asia, which I'm guessing would make it a little different from the 'Barcelona model'.

Mr Alan · 31-01-2008 9:49am

you have to know the words to "scouser tommy" and "every other saturday" or else you aint allowed buy the shares, so east Asia is out the window!

zing · 31-01-2008 10:26am

A little bit more on the proposed buy out - mainly just those involved for now.
http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0500liverpoolfc/0100news/tm_headline=liverpool-fc-fans-hatch-163-500m-takeover-plan%26method=full%26objectid=20413877%26siteid=50061-name_page.html

It's an interesting concept alright but is of course dependent on tweedledum & tweedledee agreeing to sell. I'd defo be interested alright - maybe using some of those 0% balance transfer credit cards to pay for a share and move the balance about as needed.

Initially I'd imagine they'd need firm (i.e. legally binding) commitments from would be share holders. That's going to be fairly time consuming so don't anyone expect this to happen overnight.

Pity they didn't have this bright idea 12 months ago

whatawaster · 31-01-2008 10:43am

I'm intrigued by this fans takeover talk. And frightened by it at the same time.

I think i'd be willing to put up the money, but i will demand a seat on the board.

kryogen · 31-01-2008 10:53am

lol i missed your response to me until now al, right, i unfortunatly get stuck watching the scouse occasionally when i have no choice, what i mean to say is i dont go out of my way to watch them.......

i have seen enough of them over the years also to develop a pretty valid opinion of both gerrard and carragher tbh, carra has always been overrated by you for the same reasons as gerrard i guess, liverpool lad playing for liverpool, swoon...

you are a more attack minded team this year i think, and carra's lack of pace and fondess for late/clumsy tackles and handballs are being caught this year and resulting in goals/penaltys

i dont really want to have an arguement with you on this cause in fairness your more blinded by liverpool love then i am for manchester love even! and thats saying alot.....but seriously, i think its impossible for you to look at things objectively, pragmatically.... when it comes to the pool of course...

at the end of the day....im sure tauren will argue with you, you two are like a married couple in that sense!:)

An Citeog · 31-01-2008 11:16am

Mr Alan wrote: »

I have doubts too, but it would certainly be interesting times ahead if it did.

I would imagine the stadium would be financed the same way that the yanks are doind it, by the board appointed getting loans based on future income?

also to the person who said that Liverpool couldnt get the amount of people needed? I'd imagine some backers will be making up a lot more than the 5 grand proposed as the initial fee.

be interesting to see how they reckon we'd go about it.

What's being suggested is far different from Barça or Real Madrid (see my previous post for how that works). Tbh, it sounds more like this!

Do you think any bank would be really willing to loan the amount of money needed to finance the stadium? Gillett and Hicks have huge financial clout and were seen as a pretty safe investment. If things don't go exactly as planned, they have a bit more leeway and can arrange a refinancing deal. 100,000 Scousers don't exactly fall into this category! But don't let me burst your bubble!

Edit: Another thing that the big European clubs have is far greater TV revenue than Liverpool. They negotiate their own TV deals, unlike in England, and it's a major source of revenue for them. The Spanish tax rate is far more favourable than in England aswell, which means they can afford to pay their players less than clubs in England have to. Not sure how it is in the rest of Europe though.

Spud83 · 31-01-2008 11:17am

Mr Alan wrote: »

I'm failing to remember any other petulant actions on his part in recent times?

His actions against Reading was it? That recent enough for you. He hasn't had any petulant actions since then as the manager has been pandering to him.

Stick him out right, tell him to shut up.

Mr Alan · 31-01-2008 11:30am

wat did he do against Reading again? refresh my memory

jank · 31-01-2008 11:37am

100,000 liverpool fans to stump up 5,000 each?

Well liverpool fans dont have £5,000 and i dont think there are 100,000 liverpool fans!

prendy · 31-01-2008 11:37am

on last night...
poor performance, we didnt create enough chances. added to this we only have 2-3 players capable of scoring makes us a very easy team to shut out.
keep stevie, benny and torres under wraps and your sorted.
7th in the league and falling rapidly...doesnt look good and were in danger of losing touch with fourth..luckily everton didnt win!

on takeover....
i cant see it working, apparently they are counting on a large number of investments from Asia..people look at Barca and the reason it works there is the vast majority are local people keeping THEIR club alive.

redspider · 31-01-2008 11:39am

zing wrote: »

Wasn't the original loan for 220m? 180m ish to buy the club and the other 40m to cover the existing debt.

I meant to get back to you on this.

Yes, the figures quoted at the time of the purchase were:
Debt 45m, Amount paid to shareholders (Moores et al): 175m = Total 220m (in value).

However, to do that deal G&H took out a 300m short-term loan from RBS, so I'd guess that 80m was used as working capital (and perhaps used in other non-LFC projects).
Now G&H have re-financed with a 350m 18-month loan (from RBS and Wachovia), and with some of that money earmarked for stadium development.

As for a Fans purchase of LFC, that will be difficult to do. Not only because of the amount involved but because of the timing of the stadium project, the current Owners who wont sell unless its with a huge profit, etc. Its far from an ideal time to buy. The time to do it was when Moores was selling. A Fan/Member-owned club would be an ideal situation for the club going forward, but it is not without its peril either. New owners (DIC or fans or whoever else) should only seek to buy Liverpool when G&H want to sell it. At the moment, they dont, so any price paid would be over-inflated in relation to underlying value.

Another item to note is that DIC's bid at the time was a fair bit lower than G&H (less than 200 I think), and since 220m was a low valuation given the financial numbers, if they really would have wanted the club/business then they should have upped their bid.

Redspider

Davei141 · 31-01-2008 11:44am

The fan buyout idea is a load of crap tbh

mike65 · 31-01-2008 11:45am

jank wrote: »

100,000 liverpool fans to stump up 5,000 each?

Well liverpool fans dont have £5,000 and i dont think there are 100,000 liverpool fans!

The defintion of a trolling comment.

Mike.

whatawaster · 31-01-2008 12:03pm

jank wrote: »

100,000 liverpool fans to stump up 5,000 each?

Well liverpool fans dont have £5,000 and i dont think there are 100,000 liverpool fans!

ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

You made two jokes in one sentence. And an exclamation mark to ram your point home. Well done.

PHB · 31-01-2008 12:32pm

In all fairness, the idea of a fan buy out is an utter pipe dream. It's just too much money to raise, just really not possible. 5 grand is a lot of money. Perhaps if they floated onto the market they might do better, but the way they are talking now seems utterly unrealistic.

Still, it'd be nice to see it happen, the more fan owned clubs the better.

flanzer · 31-01-2008 12:33pm

Davei141 wrote: »

The fan buyout idea is a load of crap tbh

Yeah it's only a unified front from the fans that they don't want G&H as owners. It's bull IMO and won't happen

missingtime · 31-01-2008 12:47pm

I am a sad panda with whats happening at the moment.

RE*AC*TOR · 31-01-2008 12:57pm

It remains to be seen what the true nature of this "buyout" entails. I sincerely doubt it involves 100k £5k contributions. Most likely there would be several multi-million pound "big" investors and an option for the general public to buy a proportion.
Press conference at 5pm today - until then it is speculation.

Chardee MacDennis · 31-01-2008 1:00pm

It seems to be set up by the big investors, not just random fans. i think it is idiotic to dismiss it out of hand.

mike65 · 31-01-2008 1:03pm

Can a managers mental state be measured by his selection policy? if so can I assume Rafa is mad/ego-driven for as long as Kuyt partners (in the loosest sense) Torres?

Mike.

Spud83 · 31-01-2008 1:04pm

Mr Alan wrote: »

wat did he do against Reading again? refresh my memory

I remember him having a sulk after being takin off when ya's were three one down. Didn't he also have a sulk during the Everton game even though whoever came on for him earned the penalty that won ya's the game.

Tusky · 31-01-2008 1:06pm

PHB wrote: »

In all fairness, the idea of a fan buy out is an utter pipe dream. It's just too much money to raise, just really not possible. 5 grand is a lot of money. Perhaps if they floated onto the market they might do better, but the way they are talking now seems utterly unrealistic.

Still, it'd be nice to see it happen, the more fan owned clubs the better.

Agreed. I havent even been reading the stories about the fan buyout as its so far fetched. Its not going to happen and even if it did, I think it would be a disaster.

missingtime · 31-01-2008 1:09pm

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

I remember him having a sulk after being takin off when ya's were three one down. Didn't he also have a sulk during the Everton game even though whoever came on for him earned the penalty that won ya's the game.

Didn't pull his shirt over his head because he thought the ball had gone out of play?

I think he was in a bad spot at that point cos he had just hit a kid with his car.

Chardee MacDennis · 31-01-2008 1:12pm

Tusky wrote: »

Agreed. I havent even been reading the stories about the fan buyout as its so far fetched. Its not going to happen and even if it did, I think it would be a disaster.

why? if one invester stumped up 51% we would just be back in the same situation we were with Moores in that the shares could be publicly owned and cost about £5000.

mike65 · 31-01-2008 1:27pm

Coco was in Westminster yesterday and naturally there was some speculation as to why, today the UK Secretary for culture, media and sport welcomes buy-out proposal

Obviously we'll wait to see details but this is a fascinating development and it will be really important to see how it works," he said. "I was one of those who set-up Supporters Direct, an organisation with the aim to encourage supporters to take a greater share ownership in their own clubs.

Conspiracy theories in my head.

Mike.

Chardee MacDennis · 31-01-2008 1:39pm

was just on the lfc.tv message boards - its much worse than anything i expected. to call for rafas head now is ridiculous. There is talk of banners from a small corner of fans - that would sicken me and any other proper supporter (i would hope) while also making the club look like a joke.

If we hadnt won the champions league it would probably been much easier for rafa, absolute poisoned chalice for him it seems.

EDIT: i actually might kill somebody if i hear us compared to newcastle again.

walshki · 31-01-2008 1:48pm

Call_me_al wrote: »

was just on the lfc.tv message boards - its much worse than anything i expected. to call for rafas head now is ridiculous. There is talk of banners from a small corner of fans - that would sicken me and any other proper supporter (i would hope) while also making the club look like a joke.

If we hadnt won the champions league it would probably been much easier for rafa, absolute poisoned chalice for him it seems.

EDIT: i actually might kill somebody if i hear us compared to newcastle again.

Why do you have to believe its from a small corner of fans and imply that anyone who believes Rafa's time is up is not a 'proper fan'. I'm a proper fan. I've watched how we're performing - its not good enough - I believe the manager takes a fair proportion of blame and is ultimately not the man to win us the league. Its my opinion - its based on what I've seen - I am a proper fan. If you believe otherwise fair enough but it doesn't mean you're any more of a fan than I am. Also
"If we hadnt won the champions league it would probably been much easier for rafa, absolute poisoned chalice for him it seems."

You're having a laugh. If we hadn't won the Champions league he would be gone already, his league performances over 4 seasons haven't been good enough.

Spud83 · 31-01-2008 1:50pm

Can I ask why there seems to be such a big difference in opinon between some fan boards. You mention that other sites are completly "flamed" up, yet on here the judging by the poll most Liverpool fans want Rafa to stay (I'm presuming for one more season at least), and its even 50/50 with non-pool fans.

walshki · 31-01-2008 1:53pm

And on the theme of Liverpool fans buying the club

Link

Chardee MacDennis · 31-01-2008 1:55pm

walshki wrote: »

Why do you have to believe its from a small corner of fans and imply that anyone who believes Rafa's time is up is not a 'proper fan'. I'm a proper fan. I've watched how we're performing - its not good enough - I believe the manager takes a fair proportion of blame and is ultimately not the man to win us the league. Its my opinion - its based on what I've seen - I am a proper fan. If you believe otherwise fair enough but it doesn't mean you're any more of a fan than I am. Also
"If we hadnt won the champions league it would probably been much easier for rafa, absolute poisoned chalice for him it seems."

You're having a laugh. If we hadn't won the Champions league he would be gone already, his league performances over 4 seasons haven't been good enough.

i am just talking about the banners, every fan is entitled to their opinion. and have you been on the lfc.tv message boards to see the reation these "fans" are getting to their suggestions.

so do we just give managers 3 years then? why hire a manager with a 5 year plan and then chuck em out the door half way through it. i hope you never run a business coz it would be down the toilet with the upper management turnover you would have.

mike65 · 31-01-2008 1:56pm

And on the theme of Liverpool fans buying the club

Post that on some Reds forums and die screaming!

Mike.

Chardee MacDennis · 31-01-2008 1:57pm

so can i ask everyone who wants rafa gone a question?

if he gets till the end of the season and IF we come 4th in the league, win the cl and the fa cup, should he still be fired?

Big IF i realise but its a hypothetical question.

mike65 · 31-01-2008 1:58pm

That wont happen. I can't deal in fanciful hypotheticals

Mike.

Chardee MacDennis · 31-01-2008 2:00pm

mike65 wrote: »

That wont happen. I can't deal in fanciful hypotheticals

Mike.

real help, thanks!

Dont be at yourself · 31-01-2008 2:02pm

I'd be sickened if the fans hounded Rafa out of his job. When's the last time that happened at Liverpool?

We're quickly turning into Newcastle, it seems!

Mr Alan · 31-01-2008 2:11pm

Official Liverpool site = non match going clueless fans.

A Anti-Rafa banner in Anfield would last about 15 seconds before it'd be torn down.

Mike, not sure how you voted in the other thread, but do you want Rafa gone? like to know wat the older-generation reds are thinking!

mike65 · 31-01-2008 2:19pm

I would'nt give Rafa work beyond May. He is not going to deliver a Prem title unless he were to completely change his mentality and that won't happen cos Rafa is what he is.

Don't ask me who should replace him cos I don't know for sure (or who would be availible).

http://shareliverpoolfc.com/

Mike.

Mr Alan · 31-01-2008 2:34pm

Ok fair enough.

Do you not think, considering when he arrived, he said he'd need 5 years to make us great again, then within his first delivered the CL, turned down his beloved Real Madrid for us on numerous occassions, that maybe we owe him the 5th year?

astrofool · 31-01-2008 2:50pm

You don't "owe" anyone anything, had AC Milan not thrown it away in 45 minutes, he'd have been gone long ago. The league is the barometer to set the progress of the club, and he has not progressed the club at all in these terms. Wenger won the league and cup double in his first season, and built on it since then. Ferguson got Utd to the top when coming 4th in the league didn't matter as much as it does now. Rafa has taken over a team coasting the coat tails of the other 3 in the top 4 and has not progressed.

event · 31-01-2008 2:50pm

How many of you will pay the £5000 for a share if this were to go ahead?

Peyton Manning · 31-01-2008 2:51pm

I respect what Rafa has done - winning a CL no matter what team youre in charge of is a hell of an achievement, so to do it with Liverpool who with no disrespect, were nowhere near fancied to win it that year, and get to another final, is incredible. Perhaps he is owed a fifth year, but you have to ask yourself - will the likes of Gerrard and Torres stick around for the season after next if next season is a failure aswell?

Chardee MacDennis · 31-01-2008 2:58pm

astrofool wrote: »

Ferguson got Utd to the top when coming 4th in the league didn't matter as much as it does now.

i dont understand this point?

Rafa has got us our highest premier league total ever, so obviously we have progressed a bit. also Houllier had an average of around 1.4 points per game and Rafa has 1.8 since he took over so obviously this is a big difference.

mike65 · 31-01-2008 3:10pm

Mr Alan I can't see year 5 being any different than years 1-4. He thinks Kuyt is a good foil for Torres, he thinks Kewell is the best option on the left (I understand he was very poor last night but stayed on), he won't give Crouch any meaningful league game time, he won't tell Gerrard to "shut the fupp up and play on the right". he screwed up buying a CB last summerr cos he got obsessed with out-witting Fergie over Heinze. Rafa gets bogged down in detail and trying to prove himself right.

event wrote: »

How many of you will pay the £5000 for a share if this were to go ahead?

Now thats a good question. I could afford it but, well would I? Obviously any share plan would need to stand up to severe rigor when examined and the whole structure of the new ownership and board would have to be convincing.

Mike.

Zapp Brannigan · 31-01-2008 3:13pm

I don't really like the idea of fans owning the club, we're fickle so that wouldn't make us ideal to run such a big club.

As for Rafa, he just needs to spur the players on, give them a bollicking. Some need to be put into the reserves (kuyt, kewell) to find some sort of form.

Aquos76 · 31-01-2008 4:35pm

I am guessing that many fans are preferring to blame the board rather than the manager for liverpool's recent slump in form. With all this talk of the fans trying to buy out the yanks, who is to say, that they would even consider selling it. They had the oppuritunity to sell it to the arabs, but choose not too.

Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

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