Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

Tusky

I cant believe the stick that Gerrard gets. Its unbelievable.

Champions League : 6 starts, 4 goals
Premier League : 21 starts, 8 goals
FA Cup : 1 start, 3 goals
Carling Cup : 1 start, 1 goal

Mental Mickey

oobydooby wrote: »

By his standards he was poor maybe. Again, 15m is of course a good price if he wouldn't improve. But if he regained his form of 2 seasons ago, 15m is a snip and he'd certainly improve any of our rivals (domestic or European).

I think Benitez should plan for a ten-man team plus Gerrard. SG is a one-man team but he's not as good a midfielder as either Masch or Xabi (IMO). Play SG in the hole or as a roaming winger with freedom to drift and be creative without risking our shape. I'd like to see a 4-4-1 formation against top teams (Europe, Arsenal, Chelsea, MUFC, Everton/Villa/City away) and a 4-2-3 or 4-3-2 formation against the less tactical EPL teams, with SG a free radical in these formations.

SG can attack from anywhere and he can pitch in and defend very well too. He would also open up a lot of space for Torres as it would be very hard for opponents to defend against him. For me his weakness is his positional play. He doesn't seem to "show for it" as much as I'd expect and he doesn't seem to give Xabi an extra option (ok I haven't seen enough games the past few years with them both but this is my impression from TV too). I can't imagine him being a success in Italy for instance. If he'd be a bit more humble he could learn this from Benitez (IMHO).

No chance. Like too many of the English soccer team, he believes his own hype.

oobydooby

jonny24ie wrote: »

Gerrard has how many goals this season from the middle??

As i said previous I tihnk that rafa wants a 4-5-1 as his main choice formation and for that he needs 3 central players in Masch, Alonso and Gerrard in the advanced role. With Lucas coming on when needed aswell. 2 wingers are a must and I can see Pennant and Yossi at the moment being first choice with a new left winger beingbrought in during the summer.

I like the look of that too. But we would need top top top top-top-notch wingers like C. Ronaldo or Giggs, not just lads who can deliver a quality cross. Georgie Best would be quality:p (For the week that's in it, hats off to the good things about MUFC)

oobydooby

Tusky wrote: »

I cant believe the stick that Gerrard gets. Its unbelievable.

Champions League : 6 starts, 4 goals
Premier League : 21 starts, 8 goals
FA Cup : 1 start, 3 goals
Carling Cup : 1 start, 1 goal

No doubt. But, we're not winning the EPL. I think SG could be better deployed for the team's good. There's no doubt he's a brilliant footballer, that he loves LFC with all his Herculean heart, that he sweats teardrops for the cause etc but (IMO) he could still be even better and the team could use him more effectively.

Kimbot

oobydooby wrote: »

I like the look of that too. But we would need top top top top-top-notch wingers like C. Ronaldo or Giggs, not just lads who can deliver a quality cross. Georgie Best would be quality:p (For the week that's in it, hats off to the good things about MUFC)

Well in his first year he said it was a major rebuild of the team and out of our current crop he brought in Alonso, seriously underused but quality none the less and he wanted Alonso and Gerrard together in the Middle.
If I was to think of who is going to be bought in the summer I have a feeling Simao/Mancini/Quaresma will be a priority and maybe a little gem like Arbeloa again for defensive cover. Along with another forward and Hunntelar(sp) might be what we go for and then we will have a team of the following.

---

Reina

---

---Finnan

---

Carra

---

Agger

---

Arbeloa

---

Masch

---

Alonso

---

Pennant/Yossi

---

Gerrard

---

New Player/Babel

---

Torres

---

With a bench of

Injade(sp)
Aurelio
Lucas
Hunntlar(sp)
Crouch

~Rebel~

jonny24ie wrote: »

Well in his first year he said it was a major rebuild of the team and out of our current crop he brought in Alonso, seriously underused but quality none the less and he wanted Alonso and Gerrard together in the Middle.
If I was to think of who is going to be bought in the summer I have a feeling Simao/Mancini/Quaresma will be a priority and maybe a little gem like Arbeloa again for defensive cover. Along with another forward and Hunntelar(sp) might be what we go for and then we will have a team of the following.

---

Reina

---

---Finnan

---

Carra

---

Agger

---

Arbeloa

---

Masch

---

Alonso

---

Pennant/Yossi

---

Gerrard

---

New Player

---

Torres

---

With a bench of

Injade(sp)
Aurelio
Lucas
Hunntlar(sp)
Crouch

No mention of Babel at all?

mike65

The right side of defence is starting to look a bit old frankly. Finnan did well to see off 2 direct replacements and force Arbeloa onto the left side but his time is surely coming to a close.

Mike.

Kimbot

~Rebel~ wrote: »

No mention of Babel at all?

Fixed now, sorry.

oobydooby

jonny24ie wrote: »

Well in his first year he said it was a major rebuild of the team and out of our current crop he brought in Alonso, seriously underused but quality none the less and he wanted Alonso and Gerrard together in the Middle.

In the first year (the miracle year) both Xabi and Stevie were out for long spells and each stepped up to the plate in the other's absence. It never looked like the finished article though that partnership.

If I was to think of who is going to be bought in the summer I have a feeling Simao/Mancini/Quaresma will be a priority and maybe a little gem like Arbeloa again for defensive cover.

Amazing, and you mention Huntelaar too - all players IIRC who Rafa identified but was denied by silly penny pinching from above. The guts of your team are here already but while Yossi/Pennant are not bad, I don't get that tingly feeling when they get the ball. They don't shoot from 40 yards so noone expects that. They don't try and dribble it into the net. Sadly they're a bit predictable and Pennant will beat a man and go wide and cross it, Yossi can play a clever one-two or three but he doesn't carve teams open and without the variety of attacking weapons (that C. Ronaldo has) they won't frighten poor teams into mistakes, the way MUFC, Arsenal and Chelsea do. Hence we have to labour to beat these teams. Babel shows glimpses of being the kind of winger we need (IMO) if your team will work, but he's not good enough yet.

PS I think Yossi and Pennant are ok but in a 4-4-2 with Crouchie, not as wingers to complement FT.

Kimbot

oobydooby wrote: »

In the first year (the miracle year) both Xabi and Stevie were out for long spells and each stepped up to the plate in the other's absence. It never looked like the finished article though that partnership.



Amazing, and you mention Huntelaar too - all players IIRC who Rafa identified but was denied by silly penny pinching from above. The guts of your team are here already but while Yossi/Pennant are not bad, I don't get that tingly feeling when they get the ball. They don't shoot from 40 yards so noone expects that. They don't try and dribble it into the net. Sadly they're a bit predictable and Pennant will beat a man and go wide and cross it, Yossi can play a clever one-two or three but he doesn't carve teams open and without the variety of attacking weapons (that C. Ronaldo has) they won't frighten poor teams into mistakes, the way MUFC, Arsenal and Chelsea do. Hence we have to labour to beat these teams. Babel shows glimpses of being the kind of winger we need (IMO) if your team will work, but he's not good enough yet.

PS I think Yossi and Pennant are ok but in a 4-4-2 with Crouchie, not as wingers to complement FT.

If things are to be believed in the papers then its a possibility

Huntelaar for 12 Mill
Simao for 15 Mill
Mancini (I see he is getting a bit of stick at his current place and will more than likely be on his way out) so I would guess 10 Mill
Queresma -- Not heard much about him since the summer so my guess would be around 12-15 Mill

Now if we sell
Kuyt for 8Mill
Riise for 5 Mill
Carson for 6-8 Mill

Thats a Possible 23 Mill with a Kitty of 20 Mill would make 43 Million.

So Huntelaar for 12
Plus
Simao for 15
Plus
One of the other 2 which would be max 15 Mill

Thats 42 Mill spent and a team that should challenge for the league next year.

KdjaCL

http://www.chatsoccer.eu/news/index.php/Republic-of-Ireland/Liverpool-starlet-on-loan-in-Sweden.html


Collins going on loan.



kdjac

kryogen

Tusky wrote: »

I cant believe the stick that Gerrard gets. Its unbelievable.

Champions League : 6 starts, 4 goals
Premier League : 21 starts, 8 goals
FA Cup : 1 start, 3 goals
Carling Cup : 1 start, 1 goal

strange method of defending him dont you think? is he not a midfielder?? should his pass completion % and tackle success % be more important then his goals stats??

not trying to stir **** with you or anything, just thought it was kinda redundant to give his goals to games ratio......thats for strikers!

Guy:Incognito

kryogen wrote: »

strange method of defending him dont you think? is he not a midfielder?? should his pass completion % and tackle success % be more important then his goals stats??

not trying to stir **** with you or anything, just thought it was kinda redundant to give his goals to games ratio......thats for strikers!

Is Ronaldo not supposed to be a midfielder (winger) ?

Kimbot

Stekelly wrote: »

Is Ronaldo not supposed to be a midfielder (winger) ?

Agreed, I think any midfield player with near 20 goals a season is great TBH.

PHB

It's perfectly valid to measure in part how good a central midfielder somebody is by goals scored, but its not all that matters.

Stky10

jonny24ie wrote: »

Thats 42 Mill spent and a team that should challenge for the league next year.

Not with Waldorf and stadler in charge it won't. There'll be bugger all spent in the summer if they're still in charge.

Kimbot

Stky10 wrote: »

Not with Waldorf and stadler in charge it won't. There'll be bugger all spent in the summer if they're still in charge.

I agree that they may hamper the spending but lets say they give rafa 20 Mill and tell him whatever he makes from player sales he should havee enough money to finish the squad that will challenge for the title.

Chardee MacDennis

so is ronaldo not a good winger coz he only has 2 assists? I wouldnt agree with that at all!

walshki

Stky10 wrote: »

Not with Waldorf and stadler in charge it won't. There'll be bugger all spent in the summer if they're still in charge.

To be fair - as Hicks says, they've never refused Rafa money for a player - they just block their ears, shout la la la and pretend to have bad reception then refuse to meet him for months. What more can we ask.

I hope we get three good players in the summer - difficulty is how quickly that changes performances. We can all be hopeful but assuming we can get 3 top quality first teamers who all plug straight in and suddenly make us title winners is probably optimistic based on where we are right now. Then again if things settle down before the end of this season and we string some consistent good performances together it might seem a lot more realistic. Fingers crossed.

Tusky

kryogen wrote: »

strange method of defending him dont you think? is he not a midfielder?? should his pass completion % and tackle success % be more important then his goals stats??

not trying to stir **** with you or anything, just thought it was kinda redundant to give his goals to games ratio......thats for strikers!

Well hes an attacking midfielder and goals are a big part of his game. We can use his stats for assists though if you would prefer ?

33 starts, 13 assists

jesus_thats_gre

This is what I believe Rafa is trying to achieve:

4 - 4 - 2:

---

Reina

---

Finnan

---

Carra

---

Agger

---

Riise
new

---

Masch

---

Gerard

---

new

---

Torres

---

new

---

Cover for each position as follows:

Finnan = Arbeloa
Carragher = Skrtel
Agger = Hypia
Riise = Aurelio
new = Pennant
Masch = Alonso
Gerard = Lucas
New = Kewell
Torres = Babel
New = Kuyt


or

---

Reina

---

Finnan

---

Carra

---

Agger

---

Riise
Gerard

---

Masch

---

Alonso

---

new

---

Torres

---

new

---

Cover for each position as follows:

Finnan = Arbeloa
Carragher = Skrtel
Agger = Hypia
Riise = Aurelio
Gerard = Pennant
Masch = Gerard/new
Alonso = Lucas
New = Kewell
Torres = new
New = Kuyt


4 - 5 - 1:

---

Reina

---

Finnan

---

Carra

---

Agger

---

Riise

---

Masch

---

Alonso

---

new

---

Gerard

---

new

---

Torres

---

Cover for each position as follows:

Finnan = Arbeloa
Carragher = Skrtel
Agger = Hypia
Riise = Aurelio
New = Pennant
Gerard = Babel
Masch = Gerard/new
Alonso = Lucas
New = Kewell
Torres = new


4 - 3 - 3:

---

Reina

---

Finnan

---

Carra

---

Agger

---

Riise

---

Gerard

---

Masch

---

Alonso

---

---

new

---

Torres

---

Babel

---

Cover for each position as follows:

Finnan = Arbeloa
Carragher = Skrtel
Agger = Hypia
Riise = Aurelio
Gerard = whoever
Masch = whoever
Alonso = Lucas
New = Benayoun
Torres = new
Babel = new


Riise and Alonso could be sold during the summer. You would have somone in to replace Riise. It is rumoured that Crouch is being swapped for Johnson so he would replace Alonso. Personally feel that Crouch should be kept as he offers something different. What strikers and wingers are bought is any guess.

PHB

Alonso being sold would make a lot more sense. You should be able to get 12-16 million for him, which would explain the purchase of Mascherano.

Of the 3 strikers, I'd keep Crouch. Sell Kuyt for 6-10 million, Voronin for 2-4 million. Sell Riise for whatever you get for him. Sell Alonso for 12-16 million. Sell Kewell for 2-4 million.

That'd give you a new 22-34 million pounds, plus 20 millionish in transfer fees from nice owners, and you get a nice budget of 42-54 million to buy a world class striking partner at around 20-25ish, then two new wingers, one of current quality, one of future potential. Or maybe two world class wingers and one future potential striker. Defo two wingers and one striker though.

jesus_thats_gre

Would agree with keeping Crouch. Am thinking that if he is intent on selling Crouch, he will replace him with a similar enough player who is alot better in the air and has actual pace.

Next season, looks like we could be going with Mascherano/Lucas and Gerard/Johnson.

zing

PHB wrote: »

Sell Kewell for 2-4 million.

Now that would be great business considering his contract is up in the summer

Problem with selling 2 strikers (Kuyt + Voronin) and buying 1 is that you obviously only have 3 main strikers available which gives less options each week (which some would say would be a good thing) but also potentially leaves you up sh1t creek in the event of injuries. Babel could step in if needs be as could Yossi as a 2nd striker, etc.. so it wouldn't be the end of the world. Not sure if the younger players likes of Linfield, etc.. would be up to job just yet. However the last few years have shown us that Rafa likes having 4 strikers around.

Of course the other options with selling 2 & buying 1 is picking up another on a free - just like we did with Voronin. I do think they both need to go but replacing them both with 1 might not work for varying reasons.

I'm also of a mind to cash in on Alonso - I do rate him highly but he's hardly been outstanding for the last 2 years. The 18 months before that were amazing to watch at times - his passing ability was second to none and I'd love for him to get that form back.

zAbbo

On a side note, from the back to back youth cup teams, how many of them have even tasted first team football ?

The likes of Micah Richards, Danny Sturridge, Michael Johnson and Nedum Onuoha have all played a considerable amount of games at City, some of them even regulars. Thats from their 2006 team.

It must be totally dissilussional playing for the youth/reserve teams, you either get farmed out (Paul Anderson / Guthrie) or just get your position hijacked by some foreign import.

missingtime

We don't need this Michael Johnson fella, we need a winger or a striker. We have penty of midfielders.

jesus_thats_gre

zAbbo wrote: »

just get your position hijacked by some foreign import.

They took our jobs!!

jesus_thats_gre

missingtime wrote: »

We don't need this Michael Johnson fella, we need a winger or a striker. We have penty of midfielders.

If we sell Alonso for the 15+ million that is being mentioned, we will need another central midfielder. Johnson seems to be an immense talent and securing his services in a position that will need filling in a swap deal for a player that is obviously not rated by the manager, makes alot of sense.

event

me brothers a pool fan and was telling me a story at the weekend

he said he heard from mates over on merseyside that Agger isnt injured at all. The first time he got injured was real, but he went on the beer in a big way. He was due to be fit to come back, but when benitez got wind of it he said he wasnt mentally fit or something. He is now getting back on track but wont play until this is sorted. they say this is why benitez bought yer man in january, he's basically a copy of agger.

Of course, could all be sh!te, but just what i heard

missingtime

We have Lucas. We have our reserves that we should be using.

Selling Alonso would be a big mistake. IMO the following players should be sold:

Pennant
Voronin
Kewell
Kyut
Rise
Carson

mike65

Can't see Kewell - out of contract.

Mike.

missingtime

mike65 wrote: »

Can't see Kewell - out of contract.

Mike.

Oops forgot about that.

spockety

event wrote: »

me brothers a pool fan and was telling me a story at the weekend

he said he heard from mates over on merseyside that Agger isnt injured at all. The first time he got injured was real, but he went on the beer in a big way. He was due to be fit to come back, but when benitez got wind of it he said he wasnt mentally fit or something. He is now getting back on track but wont play until this is sorted. they say this is why benitez bought yer man in january, he's basically a copy of agger.

Yes this is all true of course. And to help with the cover up of Agger's alcoholism, Adidas have gone to the trouble of custom developing a special boot for him for his pretend metatarsal injury, so that the cover up looks as real as possible. :rolleyes:

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/archivedirs/news/2008/feb/2/N158695080202-1133.htm

event

spockety wrote: »

Yes this is all true of course. And to help with the cover up of Agger's alcoholism, Adidas have gone to the trouble of custom developing a special boot for him for his pretend metatarsal injury, so that the cover up looks as real as possible. :rolleyes:

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/archivedirs/news/2008/feb/2/N158695080202-1133.htm

ah grand so, from now on i will only post facts in here, nothing else

i was just passing on a story i heard, to see if anyone else had heard anything

~Rebel~

Skrtel also isn't an exact copy of Agger. Agger and Hypia are our left sided CB's, Skrtel and Carra are the right sided CB's. Either Carra or Skrtel have to play where they're not used to if they're in the same team. Same as when Hobbs played, he's also a right sided CB, so Carra had to play in the left slot. Skrtel looks to be Carra's long term replacement same as Agger was Hypia's.

Something like that would have definately gotten more coverage anyway, these days a played cant have a pint without a thousand red tops calling it a massive booze up.

machiavellianme

missingtime wrote: »

We have Lucas. We have our reserves that we should be using.

Selling Alonso would be a big mistake. IMO the following players should be sold:

Pennant
Voronin
Kewell
Kyut
Rise
Carson

Add Aurelio to that list and I'd agree. We need quality players in a few key (striker, winger(s), left back) positions and cover we can rely on for others. Not too sure about Itandje either. Very prone to error.

missingtime

machiavellianme wrote: »

Not too sure about Itandje either. Very prone to error.

I would agree with that. Its a pity that Carson doesn't get his games with us.

zing

There has been some rumours about Agger & booze alright but they've been very vague and not very widespread. People love starting stories about footballers and this could well be just another load of made up bullsh1t.

machiavellianme

Masch deal to be completed within the week. (Apparently)
He can be signed at any time as he doesnt belong to another club.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/7226311.stm

mike65

Alonso "warned" by Rafa - is this the softening up for his exit starting already?

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N158711080204-0848.htm

Benitez said: "Xabi needs to step it up. When you are not 100% fit, you want to play every game because you need to play more games to build up your fitness.

"But if Gerrard, Mascherano or Lucas are playing well, it means there is competition for places which is good for the team.

"Xabi knows he needs to work harder if we wants to have a place in the team.

"Mascherano was back from suspension and he gives us balance in the middle and Gerrard can be more free going forward.

"Lucas was playing really well the other day so we had three midfielders, and we needed to have wingers or strikers on the bench. That's why Alonso was not in the squad on Saturday."

Mike.

missingtime

I hope he doesn't get into the habit of playing Lucas out on the wing though.

joe123

I hope he hangs on to alonso....hes one of the better buys rafas made. Its unfair to be linking him to an exit expecially since hes had injuries for most part of this season.

I think rafas just letting him know he cant just walk back into the side, and his displays havent been that great but give him a bit of time

prendy

ya alonso still has a lot to give to this team...and he's the most creative CM we have IMO.

redspider

In terms of the 'Share Liverpool FC' initiative (www.shareliverpoolfc.com), was a new thread started (I didnt see it) or do people want to put their comments in this thread?

Whether it comes off or not we'll just have to wait and see. There is a long way to go to get it off the ground and Barcelona as a model will be hard to follow.

(By the way, there are so many Liverpool topics they easily get lost in this thread, we really warrant a Liverpool sub-forum, as do many of the major clubs from england and elsewhere, and other major soccer topics).

redspider

ps: in terms of the Carra-Skrtel-Hyppia-an.other decision on the weekend, it still doesnt make sense to me. Tinkering at the back is never a good thing. Yes, Skrtel needs time on the pitch and to blend in so he is of more value to us when absolutely needed, but its better to tinker and adjust the team once we are in the lead in the match. Then bring on Skrtel and give Hyppia or Carra a rest. Isnt it better to play a RB as a RB and not use Carra there? The whole team ended up all messy if you ask me, with Carra as RB, Finnan as LB, and Lucas as LM. It didnt matter as Sund-Ireland were so poor and came for the draw. These decisions are not as plain mad as say playing Reina as centre-forward, but they are equally in the wrong direction if you ask me. I'm all on for 'total football' but we just do not have the talent for that. I wish it were otherwise.

astrofool

A lot in this thread deserve their own topics, however a lot of poster's see this one thread as the Liverpool "forum"

PHB

If you want to make a new thread, do. Just make a new thread for shareliverpoolfc.com if you want, theres no rules against it.

missingtime

Barca after Alonso.

http://www.teamtalk.com/football/story/0,16368,1776_3108109,00.html

Tusky

Even if Alonso doesnt get as many starts because Mascherano is here, he shouldn't be sold. Hes about the best backup you can have. He hasnt been on form for a long time though and at the moment, Mascherano adds much more to the team.

In regards to the game last weekend. I think playing Lucas on the left wing was one of the worst decisions in Rafas Liverpool career.

mike65

There are interesting pieces on that formation

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=A1YourView&xml=/sport/2008/02/04/sfnliv104.xml

Benitez's selection policy at Anfield is becoming increasingly bewildering. Jamie Carragher, one of the Premier League's most consistent centre-halves, was shunted out to right-back against Roy Keane's team to accommodate the unconvincing £6.5 million January signing Martin Skrtel at the heart of the defence and Lucas, a wide player with flair in abundance but tenacity in short supply, was strangely deployed against the belligerent full-back Phil Bardsley - a tactic which backfired once the defender sent the Brazilian scurrying for cover with a typically robust challenge after less than five minutes.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2008/02/04/liverpool-3-sunderland-0-100252-20431436/

IF any good has come out of the past month for Liverpool it is that it has shown Rafa Benitez who he can rely on and who he can't.

As the trust he had in certain players was fatally undermined by some seriously woeful performances on the pitch, the Reds boss has come to realise that if Liverpool are going to come out of the trenches fighting, some of the troops who have been letting him down so badly will have to be left behind.

On Saturday, Benitez's team selection reflected this as he sacrificed formation for reliability in an indication of just how unhappy he is with those he feels are not prepared to carry the fight on his behalf.

He was rewarded with a 3-0 win – Liverpool's first victory in the league since Boxing Day – despite the fact that, in some cases, he had the squarest of pegs playing in the roundest of holes.

Desperate times do indeed call for desperate measures and the sight of one of the best centre backs around playing at right back, a promising central midfielder playing on the left and a right back asked to do a job on the opposite flank, showed just how desperate things have become at Anfield in recent weeks.

Mike.

dc69

mike65 wrote: »

telegraph = and Lucas, a wide player with flair in abundance but tenacity in short supply

since when is lucas a winger?they should really research more