Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

mike65

17,000 post mark past.

Mike.

ShiverinEskimo

The only argument against your point spockety is Arsenal. Spent **** all recently and for large parts of the season have dominated and been top with the same or less revenue.

IrishMike

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

The only argument against your point spockety is Arsenal. Spent **** all recently and for large parts of the season have dominated and been top with the same or less revenue.

Not anywhere near as successful as Liverpool in the last 4 years though.

PHB

Also, the data just doesn't fit into it. Liverpool have had similar net spends to United since Rafa has joined. Rafa has favoured a bigger squad over a squad with more quality. Look at United this season. The entire world knew we needed a new striker, and instead of buying an average winger and an average striker, we bought on top quality winger prospect. Rafa has pursued this policy.

RE*AC*TOR

PHB wrote: »

Also, the data just doesn't fit into it. Liverpool have had similar net spends to United since Rafa has joined. Rafa has favoured a bigger squad over a squad with more quality. Look at United this season. The entire world knew we needed a new striker, and instead of buying an average winger and an average striker, we bought on top quality winger prospect. Rafa has pursued this policy.

Your chestnut is old.

ShiverinEskimo

I'm sorry I thought we were discussing the reasons why Liverpool haven't competed in the league.

Arsenal have competed in the league. Yet they share similar revenue and expenditure as the Pool.

PHB

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

Your chestnut is old.

That's because its correct, true, valid, fits with the facts, etc. etc.

RE*AC*TOR

PHB wrote: »

That's because its correct, true, valid, fits with the facts, etc. etc.

It's a game of two halves

whatawaster

PHB wrote: »

Also, the data just doesn't fit into it. Liverpool have had similar net spends to United since Rafa has joined. Rafa has favoured a bigger squad over a squad with more quality. Look at United this season. The entire world knew we needed a new striker, and instead of buying an average winger and an average striker, we bought on top quality winger prospect. Rafa has pursued this policy.

Yes but in each season, Rafa had to buy 5 or 6 good players simply to keep us at a good enough standard to qualify for the champions league. Rafa had to pursue that policy, we would have been in all sorts of difficulties had we not made 4th in any season.

ShiverinEskimo

IrishMike wrote:

Not anywhere near as successful as Liverpool in the last 4 years though.

Also I think saying this is a little unfair. They've been excellent this year and got to a champ's league final the year inbetween your two visits. I would call that somewhere near.

PHB

Yes but in each season, Rafa had to buy 5 or 6 good players simply to keep us at a good enough standard to qualify for the champions league. Rafa had to pursue that policy, we would have been in all sorts of difficulties had we not made 4th in any season.

Fair enough, if that was Rafa's thinking then I can understand where he is coming from. But the point is, it's been a policy he has pursued and he has spend the same as United and much more than Arsenal.

dardoz

PHB wrote: »

Also, the data just doesn't fit into it. Liverpool have had similar net spends to United since Rafa has joined. Rafa has favoured a bigger squad over a squad with more quality. Look at United this season. The entire world knew we needed a new striker, and instead of buying an average winger and an average striker, we bought on top quality winger prospect. Rafa has pursued this policy.

That may be true but Rafa didn't have the solid base of players who were good enough. He has to make a better squad before he can bring in top top players. He has vastly improved the team since he arrived, but we haven't been able to spend even close to 20m on a player until Torres. UTD have been spenind big on individual players for years because they have always had the solid squad.

Think of the players in the current UTD squad who were big money now or in their day. That is why it is totally unrealistic to say that just because Rafa has spent the same means he should have a team as good.

Mr Alan

PHB and co. I implore you all not to get into this conversation again.....we know wat PHB thinks, we know wat the Rafa defenders think, please just leave it as a difference of opinions.

PHB

Hey, I have had this argument before, and I accept dardoz and whatawasters point, they are valid and they make sense. I've no desire to get into the whole was he right to do it or not argument, everyone knows what I think

However it is stupid, just stupid, to say that Liverpool haven't spend significantly. It hasn't been about money.

emc2

PHB wrote: »

Also, the data just doesn't fit into it. Liverpool have had similar net spends to United since Rafa has joined. Rafa has favoured a bigger squad over a squad with more quality. Look at United this season. The entire world knew we needed a new striker, and instead of buying an average winger and an average striker, we bought on top quality winger prospect. Rafa has pursued this policy.

Same Net spend but UTD had a much better starting point, if you compare the squad that Rafa inherited compared to the UTD squad that year.

Mr Alan

oh no

PHB

emc2 wrote: »

Same Net spend but UTD had a much better starting point, if you compare the squad that Rafa inherited compared to the UTD squad that year.

Fair enough, seriously I didn't want to get into this argument again, but my point is that the article the person posted is just bull****.

monkey9

Anyone watch the RTE coverage before the match last night and Eamon Dunphy's attempts to kill off Jimmy Armfield. Brilliant stuff!!

spockety

PHB wrote: »

Fair enough, seriously I didn't want to get into this argument again, but my point is that the article the person posted is just bull****.

I presume you're talking about my posting.. which wasn't an 'article', it was my opinion.

I'd hardly call it bull****. The winners of the PL over the last 15 years have been the richest clubs in England. It is a simple fact.

Liverpool's finances were so dour that David Moores had to dip into his own pocket to buy Dirk Kuyt.

Actually I am going to shut up now, the argument has been beaten to death before here.

p.s. Blackburn Rovers, to prove my point!
p.p.s. Chelsea!

Dub13

Arsenal were nowhere near the richest club when they won it,they would have been on par with Liverpool

spockety

Dub13 wrote: »

Arsenal were nowhere near the richest club when they won it,they would have been on par with Liverpool

Right, so for 3 out of the last 15 years the league wasn't won with money.. that leaves the other 80% of the time.

Can anyone really deny that the influx of pure cash into Chelsea and Blackburn had no bearing whatsoever on them winning the league?

PiE

Probably not, but I'm sure that won't stop them trying. So instead of luring them back in to give it a try, go with your initial idea and keep shtum.

Dub13

spockety wrote: »

Right, so for 3 out of the last 15 years the league wasn't won with money.. that leaves the other 80% of the time.

Can anyone really deny that the influx of pure cash into Chelsea and Blackburn had no bearing whatsoever on them winning the league?

I am not saying cash does not help a lot but it can be done without going crazy and flashing the cash.

spockety

Dub13 wrote: »

I am not saying cash does not help a lot but it can be done without going crazy and flashing the cash.

Aye, things like winning the Champions League

My point stands though, I think for Liverpool to put in consistently convincing league campaigns it is going to require more money for better players via outside investment and eventually a sustainably large income from a new stadium.

Pushing for the Champions League itself, and maintaining a presence in the top 4 is not a bad achievement with the resources we have, given that Spurs and Newcastle aren't that far behind in terms of dosh.

Pighead

spockety wrote: »

I'd hardly call it bull****. The winners of the PL over the last 15 years have been the richest clubs in England. It is a simple fact.

Dub13 wrote: »

Arsenal were nowhere near the richest club when they won it,they would have been on par with Liverpool

spockety wrote: »

Right, so for 3 out of the last 15 years the league wasn't won with money.. that leaves the other 80% of the time.

Do you know what fact means?

spockety

Pighead wrote: »

Do you know what fact means?

Is that really all you have to offer?

**** ***, and that's a fact.

monkey9

You're taking a risk taking on Pighead......this could get messy

Thanx 4 The Fish

spockety wrote: »

Is that really all you have to offer?

**** ***, and that's a fact.

You posted something as FACT then suddenly you move the goalposts when your FACT turns out to be rubbish. In fairness Pigheads post was all that was required after that.

ShiverinEskimo

Game of hangman.

What did spockety just say to Pighead.

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Clue - Insult.

spockety

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

You posted something as FACT then suddenly you move the goalposts when your FACT turns out to be rubbish. In fairness Pigheads post was all that was required after that.

What I said was a fact, and remains a fact.

Just a reminder, "The winners of the PL over the last 15 years have been the richest clubs in England. It is a simple fact.".

Arsenal were among the richest clubs in England when they won the league.

Your assertion that what I posted turned out "to be rubbish" is in itself a load of rubbish. Man United, Chelsea, Arsenal, and Blackburn have all won the league in the last 15 years. United speak for themselves, they have consistently earned more and spent more than anyone else in that period. Chelsea speak for themselves, they won the league when Abramovich came in and bought the best players in the world. Blackburn also had a huge cash influx under Jack Walker. Arsenal were one of the richest clubs in England the times they won the league, and they were ahead of Liverpool in the rich stakes at least 2 out of the 3 times they won it.

What I said remains a fact. The richest clubs win the league.

spockety

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Game of hangman.

What did spockety just say to Pighead.

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_ _ _ _ / _ _ _

Clue - Insult.

lol, I'm gonna go for "Love/You"??

ShiverinEskimo

spockety wrote: »

lol, I'm gonna go for "Love/You"??

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Who's next?

EDIT-Dammit, the poster takes away multiple spaces and I can't be arse figuring out a way around it. Joke's over, nothing to see here.

Thanx 4 The Fish

And yet despite you being strong in your assertion you change it. :rolleyes:

spockety

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

And yet despite you being strong in your assertion you change it. :rolleyes:

It was a rushed followup, we all make mistakes.

Dont mess with Pighead, this is going to get messy.

Peyton Manning

In all fairness, spockety has been having his period lately. His hormones are all over the place, give the wee petal a break.

rosboy

Apologies if this has been posted before, I've had a look over the last few pages and coundn't see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycbUM53mFk

Spud83

rosboy wrote: »

Apologies if this has been posted before, I've had a look over the last few pages and coundn't see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycbUM53mFk

Brilliant but dont have sound what does he shout at the end?

rosboy

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Brilliant but dont have sound what does he shout at the end?

W@nk!r.

Its edited out, but apparantly thats what he said.

jesus_thats_gre

PHB wrote: »

Also, the data just doesn't fit into it. Liverpool have had similar net spends to United since Rafa has joined. Rafa has favoured a bigger squad over a squad with more quality. Look at United this season. The entire world knew we needed a new striker, and instead of buying an average winger and an average striker, we bought on top quality winger prospect. Rafa has pursued this policy.

Has anyone ever tried working out the average cost per player that Benitez has signed?

As I said before, a thousand times, with the 100 odd million that Rafa spent, he bough 25 players while AF may have bought 6 or 7 (figures completely made up but you get my point).

The recent close season was the first time that Liverpool even attempted to compete with Chelsea or United in the transfer market, i.e. first team players in the region of 18 to 35 million or young prospects in the region of 8 to 18 million.

We signed Torres as a ready made first team player. We signed Babel and Lucas as the young prospect. United signed Tevez and Hargreaves as the ready made first team player. United signed Anderson and Nani as the young prospects.

Take both squads on what they cost or will end up costing:

Mostly got from http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Finnan	  	3.5
Hyypia	  	3
Agger	  	5
Riise	  	4.6
Skrtel	  	6.5
Kewell	  	5
Gerrard	  	Youth
Torres	  	20 (25)
Voronin	  	Free
Benayoun	5  	
Aurelio	  	free
Alonso	  	10.5
Crouch	  	7
Pennant	  	6.7 (8)
Arbeloa	  	2.5
Kuyt	  	9
Babel	  	11.5
Mascherano	18 	
Lucas	  	6
Carragher	Youth 	
Reina	  	6
Carson	  	5 	

Total Cost:	135  	
Potential Cost:	141



Mostly got from http://www.manutdzone.com

Van der Sar	2 	
Neville	  	Youth
Evra	  	5.5
Hargreaves	17  	
Ferdinand	31  	
Brown	  	Youth
Ronaldo	  	12
Anderson	12 (18)  	
Saha	  	13
Rooney	  	20 (31)
Giggs	  	Youth
Park	  	4
Vidic	  	7
Carrick	  	18
Nani	  	12 (18)
Scholes		Youth  	
Pique	  	Can't find
O'Shea	  	Youth
Fletcher	  	Youth
Silvestre	3.5 	
Kuszczak	3  	
Tevez	  	Load (20 - 30)

Total Cost:	160 
Potential Cost:   203 - 213

It actually infuriates me that someone who has such a good understanding of football can actually compare the buying power of both clubs when you consider that fact that Man United has blitzed Liverpool's record on about 5 occassions starting about half a decade ago. They spent somehting like 30 million on Rio Ferdinand 5 years[/g] ago and something similar on Rooney.



Take the players that have been signed since Benitez took over:

Mostly got from http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Agger	  	5
Skrtel	  	6.5
Torres	  	20 (25)
Voronin	  	Free
Benayoun	5  	
Aurelio	  	free
Alonso	  	10.5
Crouch	  	7
Pennant	  	6.7 (8)
Arbeloa	  	2.5
Kuyt	  	9
Babel	  	11.5
Mascherano	18 	
Lucas	  	6
Reina	  	6
Carson	  	5 	

Total Cost:	120	
Potential Cost:	126



Mostly got from http://www.manutdzone.com

Van der Sar	2 	
Evra	  	5.5
Hargreaves	17  	
Ronaldo	  	12
Anderson	12 (18)  	
Saha	  	13
Rooney	  	20 (31)
Park	  	4
Vidic	  	7
Carrick	  	18
Nani	  	12 (18)
Pique	  	Can't find
Kuszczak	3  	
Tevez	  	Load (20 - 30)

Total Cost:	125
Potential Cost:   168 - 178

Now, there you can see clearly the difference between the two clubs in the transfer market in the last 3.5/4 years.

The players singed in the past season alone sums up exactly what has been said all along, Liverpool are between 2 or 3 world class players off United and 1 or 2 fringe players off United.




Comparisons with Arsenal's spend.. Arsenal have spent virtually nothing and have won nothing..

In fairness to Arsenal, they have achived a massive amount with a small net spend. Saying that though, they haven't actually achieved anything yet. This is a massive part of the arguments. Wenger's policy can only be vindicated upon them achieving success.

Also, the Arsenal situation is not as straight forward as it would seem. 5 or 6 years ago, Wenger started scouting and picking up the best young talent around Europe for a few million a pop. He done this in case they were short of money due to the building of the new stadium (he admitted this himself) They done this while having a very strong squad that they grew by spending what was a slightly above average amount of money for the time.

They then went about integrating these young players over the space of 3 or 4 seasons culminating in this season. While they were integrating these players (effectively functioned a new signings but were signed 2/3 years beforehand), they started selling off some of their senior players for a few million each..


Ironically enough, anything between a 1/3rd and a 1/2 of the money that Liverpool has spent has been done in trying to emulate this policy.

rosboy

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

The recent close season was the first time that Liverpool even attempted to compete with Chelsea or United in the transfer market, i.e. first team players in the region of 18 to 35 million or young prospects in the region of 8 to 18 million.

We signed Torres as a ready made first team player. We signed Babel and Lucas as the young prospect. United signed Tevez and Hargreaves as the ready made first team player. United signed Anderson and Nani as the young prospects.

+ 1

Yet commentators and journalists complain since Liverpool haven't competed for the title this season. Benitez has only bought 4 players (Torres, Mascherano, Alonso & Babel) that have cost more than 10 million!!!!! If he is given the same funds during the summer and allowed buy the players he wants, we will be a much improved side next year.

jesus_thats_gre

What I am trying to point out is that while Liverpool may have a net spend of 150 million, 100 odd of that has gone on the first team while 40 off million of it has gone on youth.

United might has a semi comparable net spend but it has all gone on the first team.

Hence why comparisons are retarded!

Mr.Nice Guy

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Comparisons with Arsenal's spend.. Arsenal have spent virtually nothing and have won nothing..

In fairness to Arsenal, they have achived a massive amount with a small net spend. Saying that though, they haven't actually achieved anything yet. This is a massive part of the arguments. Wenger's policy can only be vindicated upon them achieving success.

Arsene Wenger has achieved three league titles and has won four FA Cups in his time at Arsenal. I think you do him a great disservice with your comments.

mike65

Its no accident that Wengers net spend in the last 4 years is reflected by his teams lack of silveware.

Mike.

Tusky

All this talk of Gareth Barry is really starting to depress me. At the ripe old age of 27, Is he the player to take us to the next level ? If he is being bought it is pretty much certain that Alonso is on his way. Alonso > Barry. A step down in my opinion.

Take a look at the best players in the squad.

Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Mascherano, Alonso, Gerrard & Torres.

What do these guys have in common ? They all play down the center. Its plain to see that where we need to improve is on the flanks. Wingers & full backs please.

event

reports that lahm is on the move

surely he is one pool should be in for, a top quality full back

he would be class for left back for ye

Mr Alan

would be excellent if we went in for him, but i'd imagine Chelsea and Utd would be in for him and as much as certain posters might have you believe, if it comes down to a bidding war with them, we'll lose. Not at the races in that department.

Tusky

Mr Alan wrote: »

would be excellent if we went in for him, but i'd imagine Chelsea and Utd would be in for him and as much as certain posters might have you believe, if it comes down to a bidding war with them, we'll lose. Not at the races in that department.

Not sure about that. He would be playing second fiddle to Evra at Utd & Cole at Chelsea.

Mr Alan

he can play on the right too just as handy cant he?

mike65

I posted about Lahm 12 hours ago! :mad: :pac:

He'd be great, comfy on both sides and very quick to get forwards. And can shoot to score as well. Everything Riise is not basicly.

Mike.