Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

Mr Alan

Posted by an Arsenal fan (Gosplan) in another thread, thought it was worth having in here, maybe some people can start to get a grip of themselves....

Jesus will you liverpool fans ever just STOP MOANING!!!!!!!

If Liverpool win their game in hand they're what, 1 point behind Utd?

The last two years all you've been banging on about is:

'oh we would have won the league if it started in December' and 'we were the best team since Christmas'

By my reckoning, if Liverpool and the other teams keep going at their current rate you'll be what 4-5 points behind come Christmas.

If this happens then you simply need to repeat the good form in the run in that Benitez's team ALWAYS show. It's how he won with Valencia and how he'll win with Liverpool(if they win).

I mean how can you criticise rotation in October!!!!!!! it's a policy that doesn't bear any fruit till the new year.

My own team, Arsenal, haven't had a really tough game yet so they're still doing well. They will drop points though. Utd are second because they met a rudderless Chelsea and a few 1-0 results went their way. They are beginning to show form now but they didn't have any thievry like the Liverpool-Chelsea result happen to them yet!!!

This criticism of rotation is simply rubbish spawned by useless hacks who need to fill column inches. It's then picked up by fans who have nothing better to do then whinge and whinge and whinge.

For two years, you've been saying 'we need to stick with the leaders at the start of the season'.

Now you're saying 'we need to be top'.

YOU DON'T!! YOU JUST NEED TO BE IN TOUCH!!

Sorry but it's really bugging me because it's everywhere these days and to be honest it's a cheap complaint which shows no understanding of Benitez, his strategy or Liverpool's form over the last few years.
I mean why the hell do you always put in such good performances in the champions league? Could it be because the knock out stages are later on in the year???

Give your team and manager a break FFS.

You're doing the new part and are halfway there. If Benitez gets to Christmas within a few points of top spot then you simply need to repeat the form of the last couple of years.....which is down to ROTATION!!!!

ARRRRGGGGHHHGHHHHHHHHH

machiavellianme

Archimedes wrote:

Found this on Yahoo Sport, some of you playing Fantasy Rafa take note, its his formula he uses for selection

Si - (K+6) x Et(-G) = PiR²/12.45 + (Vp-J) B/A³

Si = Ability to speak Spanish

K = Kiss-and-tell expose in tabloids

6 = Player over six feet in height

E = Good engine

t = Solid performance in training

-G = Inverse of goals scored in last game

Pi = Carrying excess weight

R = Unprovoked rant at Premier League officials

12.45 = Saturday lunchtime kick-off

Vp = Confluence of Venus and Pluto in Capricorn

5I = Karaoke/Golf club incident

B = Goatee beard

A = Player is Alvaro Arbeloa

---

Good for a giggle

But there is no 5I in the above formula?
And what exactly is -J? Is 5I=-J?

These are the questions we need to be asking. Maybe the whole thing is an exponential, as in, this rotation policy has grown exponentially out of control.


Also, dont forget if Kw/-J then DM >>3
where DM is Defensive Midfielder

PiE

Good man Gosplan, even though he didn't post it here.

~Rebel~

any way we can get the word "Rotation" added to the swear filter?

Good piece by Gosplan.

In fairness, the only game this year where i looked at the teamsheet and really genuinely feared for them being able to get a result was Pompy away. Was a serious lack of creativity in that team. And lets face it, a draw away to Pompy in their form (in a game pompy genuinely deserved to win) isn't a bad result at all.

Every other game the team has been quite strong but underperformed. At the end of the day, besides the "getting to know each other factor" we have 2 very good players for nearly every position (GK and CB being the exceptions) and could put out 2 very very good teams simultanously and only be lacking in CB in one of them (if we got carson back for gk).

RE*AC*TOR

The problem here is that not only do certain Liverpool fans expect Liverpool to be challenging for the league, but they also expect them to win every game, in style, by 2 or 3 goals.

Another issue is that there have been many false dawns, so a certain proportion of people, despite the evidence in the results and in general the manner of play, deep down don't believe Liverpool can do it. They have all the hallmarks of the once bitten twice shy mentality. To a certain extent you can't blame them. Ever since the Souness era, we had potential title winning teams under Evans and Houllier.

Our major weaknesses from last year were up front and on the wings. I don't think anyone can argue that we haven't improved up front. Pennant had improved on the right, and Babel is certainly a better option on the left than Gonzalez, who was simply too light for the PL.

The major hiccups recently have been in areas where we previously excelled - namely organisationally, and as John Giles would say, honesty of effort. If you think there is a better manager out there than Benitez to correct those two faults, then you and I have an insurmountable disagreement.

Perhaps we've been exposed a little with lack of cover at centre half. And maybe Benitez should have had a plan B after we failed to sign Heinze, but Agger will be back, and I expect Sami to provide decent cover on a more infrequent basis. I also fully expect us to sign a centre half in January.

There had been a lot of knee-jerk rubbish posted here subsequent to the Spurs game (as I said previously). I suspect those same people might be quick to forget their harsh words before long.

Mr Alan

Anyone have any idea or any preferences who we'd sign in Jan if we are picking up CB cover?

Not sure how viable an option it is, but Steven Taylor at Newcastle i think would be an excellent purchase, pretty sure he was on the bench for them at the weekend too which means all might not be well with him and Big Sam!

any other ideas?

Or maybe Heinze from Real?!

Kanney

First of Mr Alan/Millersangel, nice sig

CB buy in January.... Not too sure but I think we'll have luck, Agger and Arbeloa were both bought in January, in saying that tho, so were Kromkamp and Pellegrino. I don't think he'll look to England for one though.

Zapp Brannigan

Collocini perhaps? He's an Argie international so I'm sure Rafa will like him.

RE*AC*TOR

I think its way too early to speculate about who will be signed as defensive cover. No doubt the scouts are doing their job right now. Ideally I imagine, knowing Benitez' cover policy, the player would most likely be the equal of Carra / Agger and could challenge to be a consistent starter ahead of either of those two. The ability to play at full-back would also be a bonus as Benitez values those kind of players. Finally with Benitez' track record, someone from Spain or Argentina would seem most likely, but who knows, he seems to be branching out on that front.

*edit* One of my biggest disappointments has been the seeming unwillingness of Peter Crouch to fight for his place in the team. It reflects poorly on his character as a player who Benitez showed a huge amount of faith in last year. A player whose stock has risen immensely since joining the club, to the point where he has become a relative fixture in the England set up. Alas, I'd say its most likely he will be exiting stage left, if not in January, then in the summer. Its a pity because he has the ability to offer a lot to the team. Also I am uncertain if Benitez will replace him. The trio of Kuyt, Voronin and Torres are well established, and many suspect Ryan Babel's best position is up front, so the absence of Crouch may just mean Babel gets more opportunities in that position.

yom 1

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

*edit* One of my biggest disappointments has been the seeming unwillingness of Peter Crouch to fight for his place in the team. It reflects poorly on his character as a player who Benitez showed a huge amount of faith in last year. ......

I've been thinking that myself over the last few weeks.

well said

Zapp Brannigan

I'd be delighted to see the back of Crouch, he's just adding nothing to our team at the moment.

Guy:Incognito

Mr Alan wrote:

If Liverpool win their game in hand they're what, 1 point behind Utd?

I realise you were quoting Gosplan here.

For about 10 years now each season has revolved around " if we win X game(s) in hand we'll do this or that" It never materialises and might well never do in future.

As I posted before, a couple of weeks ago people were sayign things like "we are a couple of points ahead of Utd with a game in hand, then it was "We are level(ish) with Utd but we have a game in hand" then it was " we are 5 points behind but 2 games in hand so we can go above them" now its "we can get to within 1 point if we win our game in hand" Of course this all fades away around MArch when we have no games in hand/are too far behind to be worrying about things like winning the league. You dont win the league by having games in hand, it's points in the bag that win it, we just dont get enough points, plain and simple.

The way it is now we could go the whoel season unbeaten but still finish a way off the top because we are dropping too m any easy points.

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

The problem here is that not only do certain Liverpool fans expect Liverpool to be challenging for the league, but they also expect them to win every game, in style, by 2 or 3 goals. .

Winning the league by whatever means possible is fine by me. Fact is, the way we are going at the minute we will not win the league. Of the games so far this season, Only chelsea should have posed a real challenge. People are talking about maybe picking up points against Arsenal and Utd but looking at our record against them over the last few years we can by no means count on getting very many points off the 3 other top 4 teams. We need to be beating the lesser teams and beating them well at times is needed for morale.

PHB

Beating teams well isn't what people want, but it's a sign that a team is playing well. That's what people want, a team playing well consistantly.

Mr Alan

Stekelly wrote:

Of the games so far this season, Only chelsea should have posed a real challenge.

See this attitude is where the problem lies imo, the Premier League is no longer that kind of league and hasnt been for a few years.

Portsmouth away and Villa away were always gonna be tough places to go . . .Chelsea lost 2-0 to Villa and Utd drew with Portsmouth (they lost last year), these are the teams who've set the bench mark over the last couple of years. So far the only result that has been poor this year has been the Birmingham result.

Lex Luthor

Have to agree with a few of the lads here about Crouch. Benitez gave him a few chances and he just doesn't seem to wanto to fight for his place.

Look at Torres & Voronin who have just come in...they fight for every ball. Kuyt needs no mentioning also

astrofool

Mr Alan wrote:

See this attitude is where the problem lies imo, the Premier League is no longer that kind of league and hasnt been for a few years.

If anything, the last few years has set a high water mark for the results needed, where 90 points was the target to win the league, so completely the opposite of what you said.

Mr Alan

2006-2007 = 89
2005-2006 = 91
2004-2005 = 95

noticing anything? and with the strenghtening of Manchester City, Newcastle, Aston Villa, Portsmouth, Everton and Blackburn . . . . ya can be pretty sure it'll be lower again this year. The dominance that Chelsea had when Jose first arrived quickley disappeared, all the top teams will drop quite a few points over the season.

raven136

with the top4 going to take points off each other and a resurgent middle 6(villa,city etc) also taking points off the top 4,could it be that 84/85 points wins its.
Also does that show a poor league or a more even top ten or so

Guy:Incognito

Mr Alan wrote:

2006-2007 = 89
2005-2006 = 91
2004-2005 = 95
.

All that shows is that being selective with stats can prove a point.


03-04 was 90 so it was raising from then and only dropped below thaty last season. It's always going to finish a few (2-5) either side of 90. How much depends on a few factors. I mean would Utd have lost 1-0 to West Ham if the league wasnt wrapped up? Would th eChelsea - Utd game have been a draw if it was for the title? Those 2 results alone could have put Utd up 2 94 points. Teams usually take the foot off when the league is won.

02-03 was won with 83 so it looks like we're we'll up if anything.
01-02 was won with 87
00-01 was won with 80
99-00 was won with 91

So in truth it fluctuates all the time and theres no evidence to support the theory that its getting any lower.

If anything your lists seems to just show that it's stablising at around the 90 point mark.

astrofool

Mr Alan wrote:

2006-2007 = 89
2005-2006 = 91
2004-2005 = 95

83
87
80
91
79
78
82
75


Still above average compared to last decade, and the last two seasons would have been even higher had Manu/Chelsea bothered winning any matches after they won the title.

Anyway, what you're basically saying is that if the level required to win drops enough, Liverpool have a chance, cos they have no chance of scoring much above 80.

Mr Alan

Well Liverpool got 82/83(?) points in 05-06 if i'm not mistaken? And i think its a fair bet to say that the team now is stronger than it was then.

My point of putting up the last three years was simply to show that it has gone down over the last three years, and i'd be willing to put a bet on with ya if ya want that it goes down again this year.

All I'm trying to say is that the top teams will lose games this year, more than over the last three years in my opinion. Already Utd have dropped points to City, Portsmouth and Reading. Chelsea to Aston Villa and Fulham.

Interesting times ahead.

zing

Alves (Afonso that is) and Mancini anyone ?

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0500liverpoolfc/0100news/tm_headline=liverpool-eye-brazilian-star-afonso-alves%26method=full%26objectid=19926639%26siteid=50061-name_page.html

Probably just a wee bit too early to be taking notice of these rumours really

Mr Alan

Wat age is Mancini? Isn't he old enough or am i mistaken?

zing

Mr Alan wrote:

Wat age is Mancini? Isn't he old enough or am i mistaken?

27 according to that source of all useless information but will be 28 in Jan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandro_Faiolhe_Amantino_Mancini

RE*AC*TOR

I imagine both rumours are donkey ****.

i don't see us moving for a forward unless Crouch leaves. And if he leaves I see Benitez looking to replace him with a similar type of player. Crouch and Alves are not similar players.

Mancini hardly set the world alight vs ManU recently, but there was speculation during the summer. Don't see it happening either.

zing

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

I imagine both rumours are donkey ****.

i don't see us moving for a forward unless Crouch leaves. And if he leaves I see Benitez looking to replace him with a similar type of player. Crouch and Alves are not similar players.

tbh I don't see us moving for a forward in Jan even if Crouch leaves. I'd expect Babel to move forward although we'll get a better idea of Rafa's thinking on that if Babel is pushed up front in say some of the domestic cup games.

raven136

very early for rumours but if crouch did leave i could see it being because of his bad attitude of late and not his penchant for missing sitters:)

Mr Alan

Wouldnt be mad on the idea of Mancini, granted i haven't seen a lot of him, only his CL games. . . . .but i'd prefer if we were picking up a winger that he was a few years 23-25ish.

I think Crouch will leave, if its in January though, I'm not even sure if Rafa will get a replacement for him, Babel was claiming when he joined that up front is his best position, tbh, i'd like to see him given a shot there, Babel & Torres up top would be sweet if Babel develops the way we are all hoping he will

astrofool

Mr Alan wrote:

Well Liverpool got 82/83(?) points in 05-06 if i'm not mistaken? And i think its a fair bet to say that the team now is stronger than it was then.

My point of putting up the last three years was simply to show that it has gone down over the last three years, and i'd be willing to put a bet on with ya if ya want that it goes down again this year.

All I'm trying to say is that the top teams will lose games this year, more than over the last three years in my opinion. Already Utd have dropped points to City, Portsmouth and Reading. Chelsea to Aston Villa and Fulham.

Interesting times ahead.

Your original point was that the premier league wasn't a high point scoring league "for years", when in fact the last three seasons were the highest ever for point scoring. I'd agree that the level will probably be about 83-85 this year, but also that Liverpool won't reach that anyway In fact, if they continue as they have started, they'll reach 76 points in the league.

Mr Alan

Astrofool, i think if you read back my point was actually that the top teams can not longer expect to walk every game against so called "lesser teams" and was made in response to the post stating only Chelsea should have been any challenge for us this year.

PHB

This whole the league will be won on fewer points thing is fine, however, Liverpool are currently 6 points behind Arsenal. They have shown no signs of catching up with them. Arsenal and United have won the last 6 games in a row. Liverpool's last six games have been WWDDWD. That's not championship form. Now fair enough, everybody has bad patches, United and Arsenal will have bad patches. However, those runs of wins are what win you leagues, and you get those runs going normally against teams outside the top 6. If you don't take those chances against teams outside the top 6, you're gona make it much harder for yourself, which is what Liverpool have done. I said before Liverpool had the easiest start of all the top 4, and they haven't capitalised on that start.

I notice the way you say, United have already dropped points, Chelsea have already dropped points etc, while you ignore the league leaders Arsenal have not, infact they drew one game against Blackburn. United had a bad start largely due to injuries and suspensions. They have now got back to their previous winning ways. If United played City, Portsmouth or Reading in the next three games, would you expect them to pick up 9 points out of 9? I'd say most people would, or at least 7 out of 9.

mike65

If Pool can get thier asses in gear for the next 3, all of which are proper 'big/hard' games - the sort that will tell us much about attitude/confidence then we'll be back on course and I'll be much happier.

Mike.

raven136

never mind supposed easy start for pool,all teams bar arsenal have dropped points.Arsenal have looked exceptional but have 11 players only,their squad depth may or may not show them up,example take cesc out of that team and its hugely weakened.Lets see how good arsenal do against united,away to pool etc.
Liverpool arent out of the race,neither are chelsea and at the moment arsenal lead the way but one loss changes everything.You dont win the league in october but you can lose it and simply none of the top 4 have lost it yet

Chardee MacDennis

PHB wrote:

Liverpool's last six games have been WWDDWD. That's not championship form.

tbh i would be very surprised if you could find any champions that didnt have a simialr run at some point in the competition, to say it is not championship form is bull. the trick is not to repeat it too much. . .

PiE

It's October. Can we stop talking about "championship form", whatever the hell that's meant to be, for... oooh... another 6 months please? Thanks.

event

raven136 wrote:

never mind supposed easy start for pool,all teams bar arsenal have dropped points.Arsenal have looked exceptional but have 11 players only,their squad depth may or may not show them up,example take cesc out of that team and its hugely weakened.Lets see how good arsenal do against united,away to pool etc.

?

they beat newcastle with this team

# Lukasz Fabianski
# Armand Traore
# Justin Hoyte
# Philippe Senderos
# Emmanuel Eboue
# Alexandre Song
# Denilson
# Lassana Diarra
# Theo Walcott
# Nicklas Bendtner
# Eduardo

newcastle had

# Shay Given
# Habib Beye
# David Rozehnal
# Steven Taylor
# Jose Enrique
# Abdoulaye Faye
# James Milner
# Charles N'Zogbia
# Alan Smith
# Obafemi Martins
# Shola Ameobi


there is not one starter there for arsenal, while there was around 7 or 8 of newcastles

arsenal have good strength in depth this year

and if you say take out cesc, sure thats the same as any teams star player, of course they will be weakened

kryogen

are you saying that newcastle are of the same quality of united, liverpool and chelsea?? surely not, i dont think it takes that much to equal a newcastle team in fairness, im sure sam allardyce will do good things for the club, but it will take time and i would not reccommend newcastle as a marker for how good a team is!

i think arsenal have been very impressive so far, but i also remember that as a footballing team they have been impressive for a long time now, when they are allowed to play their free flowing football and when they are firing on all cylinders they are pretty unstoppable, but it remains to be seen whether they can maintain that form all season, which they will need to do as i really dont think they have a strong enough squad to win the league. they are full of raw talent and ability but do they have the mental strength to push on and win the really hard battles in winter on the bad surfaces?

~Rebel~

I think somethings in the air with regards Crouch and a replacement at this point. Just the fact that suddenly we're being linked with strikers again, in Huntelaar and Alves suggests Crouchy will be out of here. To be honest, if he wasn't too ridiculously expensive id love to see Alves arrive. He's a big strong tall ball winner. but added to this he has a little bit of pace (more then crouch basically and could beat SOME defenders in a race, though not exactly a speed merchant), and more importantly scores all types of goals and lots of them, from all angles, and has a fantastic free kick.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=920aMpWX9nc

~Rebel~

kryogen wrote:

are you saying that newcastle are of the same quality of united, liverpool and chelsea?? surely not, i dont think it takes that much to equal a newcastle team in fairness, im sure sam allardyce will do good things for the club, but it will take time and i would not reccommend newcastle as a marker for how good a team is!

Id imagine his point was that when Arsenal's reserve team can beat Newcastle which is one of the "best of the rest", that obviously they have some decent strength in depth. If it was Arsenals first team he had mentioned then fair enough, that wouldnt be a marker, but when its made up almost entirely of reserves, thats pretty decent if you ask me! Man U's reserve side for example didn't come out with much credit after their defeat in the carling cup...

astrofool

Mr Alan wrote:

Astrofool, i think if you read back my point was actually that the top teams can not longer expect to walk every game against so called "lesser teams" and was made in response to the post stating only Chelsea should have been any challenge for us this year.

Well, that was your original point, you then backed it up with nonsense .

Mr Alan

Good work astrofool

RE: Crouch situation....havent seen much of this Alves fella, but his scoring record is unbelievable, suppose it all depends how much he'd be available for?
As for Huntelaar-someone on the utd thread pointed out that if Chelsea get this coach/manager from Ajax, that may make them favourites to land him if they are interested, although i think if it comes to Chelsea buying a new striker, Roman might want something of a bigger name/more "showboat friendly" player.

kaimera

Right, so we're what 8 games in with 4.4.0 right?

relax a little bit

If anything, we should be concerned that we've only won a single game at home already out of 4 but it's only 8 games into the season.

~Rebel~

~Rebel~ wrote:

I think somethings in the air with regards Crouch and a replacement at this point. Just the fact that suddenly we're being linked with strikers again, in Huntelaar and Alves suggests Crouchy will be out of here. To be honest, if he wasn't too ridiculously expensive id love to see Alves arrive. He's a big strong tall ball winner. but added to this he has a little bit of pace (more then crouch basically and could beat SOME defenders in a race, though not exactly a speed merchant), and more importantly scores all types of goals and lots of them, from all angles, and has a fantastic free kick.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=920aMpWX9nc

Here's Alves 34 goals from last season, one after the other (no replays or anything, still runs for 5and a half minutes though!)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=h7XIVDSNNgw

And heres his 7 from the last match;
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rTwL_Ljrta0

Id say he'll be dying to leave more then ever now, since he pretty much knows hes far too good for that league, to test himself someplace tougher, at a bigger club.

kryogen

~Rebel~ wrote:

Id imagine his point was that when Arsenal's reserve team can beat Newcastle which is one of the "best of the rest", that obviously they have some decent strength in depth. If it was Arsenals first team he had mentioned then fair enough, that wouldnt be a marker, but when its made up almost entirely of reserves, thats pretty decent if you ask me! Man U's reserve side for example didn't come out with much credit after their defeat in the carling cup...

not taking anything away from the youngsters, but they have plenty of experience now to be fair dont they?? much more then the united team that played so poorly against coventry, although i give credit to coventry there, they didnt let them play......

newcastle havent really been a force for a few seasons now anyway, i take your point on board, just wanted to point out that they are not a huge test for a team..

PHB

Your point was that Arsenal don't have strength in depth, while their second team bitchslapped Newcastle who are a top 10 club. They have strength in depth, maybe not as much, but they aren't just 11 men.

Mr Alan

Liverpool fans really do need to be careful not to be overly critical of Rafa, if the media smell blood, they will literally hound him and hound him, if this happens, i think he'll leave, talking that ****e wouldn't be worth it for him.

heres an article from tony barrett, its an interesting read...

On Saturday night a name rang around the Mastella Stadium in Valencia for the first time since May 2004. That name belonged to Rafa Benitez as the home fans sang in union "Come back Rafa, come back Rafa".



It says everything about the esteem in which the Liverpool manager is still held in Valencia that more than three years after he departed the La Liga side he remains the man the fans would love to see running their club.

With a pair of league championships and a UEFA Cup won during his stint at the Mastella we shouldn't be surprised that Benitez is still revered there.

Breaking the Real Madrid/Barcelona duoploy marks him out as an iconic figure in the Mediterranean city and seeing as the La Liga title has eluded Valencia ever since Benitez's departure it was always likely that absence would make the heart grow fonder.

In England, meanwhile, the very same Rafa Benitez is finding his ability to turn Liverpool into genuine title challengers questioned and, on occasion, his methods ridiculed whenever results go against his side and sometimes even when they don't.

The criticism of Benitez comes at a time when Liverpool are unbeaten in the league and lie just six points off first place. I repeat, when Liverpool are unbeaten in the league and just six points off first place.

The stick with which the Liverpool manager is being beaten most often is rotation. Apparently, if you listen to his critics, teams which rotate do not win the big prizes.

Well, it certainly worked in Spain so rotation cannot be dismissed as a failure all that easily.

"Ah," say the critics, "that's all well and good but football in England is different to Spain and it'll never work here".

The case for the defence could easily centre on the fact that Benitez has already guided Liverpool to domestic success in the FA Cup (not to mention that continental triviality that is the Champions League).

It might well pain him to do so, but in this case Benitez could quite easily point to Manchester United's Premiership triumph last season.

In the 2006/07 season, Sir Alex Ferguson used a total of 23 players en route to the title. At Anfield, Benitez used six more.

Significantly, five of those selected by Benitez only featured in Liverpool's last three games of the season when the focus had shifted from domestic to continental pursuits with key first team players making way for youngsters as the Champions League final loomed.

So, for the most part of the season, Benitez and Ferguson utilised squads of an almost idenitical size.

When it comes down to rotation, the two managers both made constant changes to their sides throughout the season and looked on track to record an almost identical number of changes until Liverpool secured their place in the following season's Champions League and Benitez began to make more and more changes in a bid to assess the quality of his younger squad players and the club's priority shifted to that meeting with Milan.

So, again, both Benitez and Ferguson used rotation. The difference? United won the title and Liverpool didn't.

This season, the criticism of Benitez's methods has grown more and more ridiculous with every passing week. So much so that their are now people far less qualified who feel they have the right to tell the Liverpool manager what his team should be.

Sensationalism is masquerading as analysis and it has got to stop. By all means question Rafa Benitez but it has to be done with perspective.

Trophies aren't handed out in October and we will all only know if the Reds boss' system will pay dividends come next May.

But if you have doubts about whether Benitez's methods should be accepted then consider the words of another of Valencia's favourite sons, centre forward David Villa.

In a recent interview, Villa was asked how Valencia had managed to be beaten by Chelsea in last season's Champions League quarter finals despite having gone 2-1 up on aggregate at home.

His answer was revealing: "It is very simple. We had a very small squad last season so the manager (Quique Sanchez Florez) could not rotate as much as he would have liked.

"By the end of the season we had played a lot of games, too many games, and we were tired and carrying injuries and when Chelsea came back we had nothing left to give."

It is this kind of endemic exhaustion that Benitez is trying to avoid at Anfield.

Rotation is new to the English game and in a country as insular and naturally conservative as this one it was always going to be viewed with suspicion.

But it is all too easy to blame all a club's ills on a selection process when results go against it. When Liverpool were beaten by Marseilles last week the usual suspects again argued that the defeat was caused by rotation.

This was despite the fact that physically the Liverpool players were at their highest level for several weeks. They were fresh and the occasional rests they had been given were the reason for this.

The problem was, their physical attributes were fatally undermined by a lack of confidence which meant their technical and tactical skills simply did not function.

It was a bad, bad performance but to lay the blame for it at the door of rotation is lazy in the extreme.

Just three seasons ago, the very same critics claimed that every single goal Liverpool conceded from a set piece was caused by this new fangled zonal marking system that Benitez had brought with him from Valencia.

Now, no-one even talks about it. The reason why? Liverpool hardly ever concede a goal from a set piece anymore while other teams which use more traditional man-to-man marking systems continue to concede them on a much more regular basis.

So the message is simple - support the manager and support his methods. Let the critics have their say but never lose sight of the fact that we have one of the most tactically astute coaches in European football who has a record of success that few can get near and most envy.

Oh, and his Liverpool team is still unbeaten in the Premiership as autumn kicks in.

Those fans at the Mastella know all too well that Benitez is a special manager - that's why they still sing his name - so let him get on with the job in hand at Anfield and let's see where we end up in May.

PHB

This whole rotation will pay dividends thing in may is a bit silly, considering the fact that United and Arsenal (to a lesser extent) rotate too Also the article ignores the effect of rotation on confidence. Rotation isn't the problem, but Rafa's choices of rotation are problematic.

Mr Alan

i think the point he is making is that, we will get stronger in the new year, as we have for the past few years, so if we are in touch (within 6 points) it'll be anybodies, obviously we want to win the league, but the most important thing is to CHALLENGE for the league title this year, which we are on course for doing, 2 months into the year, and we have improved by 5 points on last year. carry on for the rest of the season and skies the limit

BUT if stupid fickle fans start blaming Rafas rotation (as last year it was gerrard on the right, the year before zonal marking) the media will hound him out of a job, with Jose gone now there is a lot of inches at the backs of papers that'll need filling.

The important thing to remember for anyone wanting to criticise rotation is that;
1; the back 5 players are not rotated.
2; the players that are our best performers this year are the ones who are being rotated (voronin,torres to a lesser extent,Yossi,Pennant)
3; its October.
He has already proven there is no one better than him in european competition and cup competitions.

IMO, Rafa WILL win a league at Liverpool if given the time, so we just cannot risk losing him for the sake of something controversial for people to read.

~Rebel~

PHB wrote:

This whole rotation will pay dividends thing in may is a bit silly, considering the fact that United and Arsenal (to a lesser extent) rotate too Also the article ignores the effect of rotation on confidence. Rotation isn't the problem, but Rafa's choices of rotation are problematic.

Ideally i guess it makes it easier to pick off the other (non top4) teams who are tired by the end of the season.

From the outset we've all always said next year was the year to really be pushing, and that this year we just needed to be closing in. Early form did indicate that we could actually go for it this year, but we shouldn't forget our expectations from pre-season.

Id like Rafa to do any of the general strengthening he can for next season in January so that if he does continue rotating it wont matter as much at the start of next season as everyone will be well and truly bedded in and used to each other. Crouch out (if he keeps up his shenanigans and doesnt sign an extension), maybe alves in, maybe playmaker/winger in, def CB in.

zing

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_2794048,00.html

shame about the piece of crap paper he spoke to.