Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

Kanney

I really doubt that Babel has an attitude problem, he's young, he'll show his talent soon, im sure.

mike65

Sure look at Ferdinand!

Mike.

Zapp Brannigan

Torres is vying to be fit for the Derby! Gwan lad!

Kanney

Yeah, would be great to see him fit for it. He shone brightly against Chelski, (as if he isnt already) he will be a Kop hero to score against Everton.

kryogen

ill risk being called a troll here for this one, i found it a very interesting read, i hope some level headed liverpool fans will be able to read it properly and give a bit of feedback about it?



Time for Benítez to give Gerrard a wide berth

The root cause of Liverpool's poor form isn't Rafa Benítez's tinkering; it's playing Steven Gerrard in central midfield.
Scott Murray
October 11, 2007 12:04 PM

The received wisdom regarding Liverpool Football Club's current malaise, in a nutshell, for you, now, right here on Guardian Unlimited: Rafael Benítez simply can't stop tinkering with that team!

So there you have it. Pithy and precise, and everyone's saying it. Problem is, like so many handed-down truisms - eating up your crusts puts hair on your chest, carrots make you see better at night, whipping it out just before showtime is a foolproof method of contraception - it doesn't actually have that much basis in fact. Here's a different suggestion: rotation isn't Liverpool's problem at all. In fact, almost the opposite is the case, because the root cause of their patchy form is Benítez's dogged persistence with playing one particular player in one particular position all the time.

Steven Gerrard should not, under any circumstances, be playing in central midfield.

To clarify, Gerrard is a fine player. His strengths are manifold: goalscoring ability, pace, power, desire, determination, beginning, to, sound, like, Hansen, on, autopilot, now. But tactical discipline? An ability to dictate the play? An eye for the clever pass - and that means consistently, not just the occasional delivery to feet of a Hollywood ball? No. Nope. Yes - but no. In other words, for all Gerrard's world-class talent, he's simply not a player to place at the heart of a team.

When Manchester United built a side around a central midfielder, they did so around the ultra-dependable Roy Keane. A talented right-sided midfielder harboured ambitions to play there too, but was told by Sir Alex Ferguson in no uncertain terms to stay out of harm's way on the right, where his many talents would be utilised as and when - but never, ever depended upon to keep the team ticking over.

David Beckham's high-water mark of achievement - the seasons between 1998 and 2001 - were spent out on the wing. Yet amazingly, his signature performance is considered by many to be his 13,447km rampage around the middle of Old Trafford in an England shirt against Greece. Nice free-kick and all, but the main reason that dramatic last-minute intervention was required was because the scoring hero spent the majority of the match haring hither and yon in spectacularly undisciplined fashion, gaps appearing all over the pitch as team-mates attempted to cover. So he really wanted to play there? Tough. A decision from which Ferguson never wavered - and who, given Beckham's post-United meanderings, would argue with that assessment now?

It's an instructive comparison. Gerrard's appearance in the centre of Liverpool's midfield has had an undeniably unbalancing effect. Consider the club's recent run of form. Against Sunderland, Toulouse and Derby, without Gerrard in the team and two central midfielders in the centre of midfield, Liverpool scored 12 goals in three games. The 203 minutes after Gerrard's return to the middle? Three matches, one goal, no wins. So Sunderland, Toulouse and Derby aren't any great shakes? Well, neither are Portsmouth, Porto or Birmingham, teams Liverpool failed to put to the sword (unlike Reading, who were tonked for four, with guess who on the bench). Marseille and Tottenham are better sides - barely better, but better none the less - and look what happened there. Gerrard flailing helplessly, 40-yard passes sailing serenely into the dark of the stands, 11 men without drive.

If Beckham's signature performance snaps everything into focus, so does Gerrard's. With the player in the middle, Liverpool were stripped naked during that first half in Istanbul; it was only when Didi Hamann came on to wrest control of the midfield, and Gerrard was shunted into a less responsible role, that he had the astounding effect we know he can.

In fairness, Gerrard can show tactical discipline - once Liverpool drew level against Milan, he wasn't half bad for the last hour at right-back against Serginho - but then again he wasn't being afforded the responsibility of dictating the entire game. To be a top-level central midfielder at a major club, it's got to be the whole package at once, or nothing.

Liverpool have a perfectly serviceable central midfield partnership in Javier Mascherano, who scarcely has a peer in world football when it comes to harrying and tackling, and Xabi Alonso, who when even woefully out-of-form as he is, shames Gerrard with his range of passing. This isn't to say Gerrard doesn't have a vital role to play for his side: out right, or perhaps just behind the front man, positions from where he has posed - and can continue to pose - immeasurable danger. Just not in the centre. So he really, really, really wants to play there? Tough.

Gerrard has always argued his best - and most desired - position is in the middle. It's impossible to know what behind-the-scenes promises have been made to keep him happy at Liverpool - though if any deals have been brokered to ensure his continued presence at the club, they shouldn't have been. Benítez needs to give over his centre midfield to players who have the ability to dictate, prompt, playmake and pass. Being an incredibly talented and driven attacking midfielder doesn't necessarily mean a player can do this. Gerrard should be happy enough to play for - and captain - the club he supported as a boy on the right, or off the front man, or... well, wherever, really. Just so long as he's well away from the heat of the engine room.

But if that doesn't make him happy, Liverpool should consider what to many might seem unthinkable: they should cash in, and get rid.

jesus_thats_gre

That was posted last week by PHB.. Fairly good article too..

~Rebel~

Yup, a good read alright.

Gerrard CAN be great in the middle, his harrying defensive game hasn't left him as was mentioned in the Man U thread, but and its a big but, in the middle he's like a poisoned chalice. He can create great stuff and surge forward to assist and score goals. All the while, his running around (a little headlessly at times) often gets in other peoples way and stops them doing something themselves. He's reminding me a bit of how Henry was towards the end at Arsenal, always calling for the ball, and the teammates knowing his quality, and him being captain, the give it to him, when maybe he wasnt the best option at the time.
I think he lessens Alonsos role in the game massively which is terrible as Alonso is teh one you want runnign the show. Gerrard, when not out of form, can do everything. But its like sometimes he chooses not to.

Its a toughy as what can Rafa really do? As soon as he moves him from CM, he'll get castigated big time by everyone, and Gerrard is too good to be dropped. The only real solution imo, is to play him up just behind Torres (not attacking midfield, right up there). I hate him being there whenever he has played there as he does the same getting in other peoples way, going out of position etc, but if he could be made to play as a Second Striker, he could be the best at it in the world. If he just Stayed up there and let Masch and Alonso get on with what they do best, we could be onto a real winner. Im not sure he would though.

Masch and Alonso, im nearly certain are the best midfield pairing. Whenever they play together they're unreal. We've seen on countless occasions Alonso put in amazing performances when Gerrards not on the pitch.

---

Reina
Finnan---Carra--Agger---Arbeloa

Pennant--Masch--Alonso--Babel

---

Gerrard

---

Torres

That in my opinion, is a team that could win the premiership.

I think its very interesting teh style of CB cover Rafa is looking for, first in Heinze and now in Amorebiate, dogged CB's who are well used to LB as well.
Im wondering if Rafa plans on a back 3 of Agger, Carra and Amorebiate which would allow Masch and Alonso to play midfield, Gerrard given an attacking free role (but with Alonso calling the shots) and still keeping 2 strikers.

Dont be at yourself

What about a midfield trio of Alonso, Macherano and Sissoko, with Gerrard and Babel playing off Torres?

jesus_thats_gre

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

What about a midfield trio of Alonso, Macherano and Sissoko, with Gerrard and Babel playing off Torres?

Very capabale as well I believe.. I personally think that having Masch and Sissoko on the team could make 3-5-2 actually work.

Dub13

I am starting to give up on Sissoko,he would want to get his finger out asap.

jesus_thats_gre

Dub13 wrote: »

I am starting to give up on Sissoko,he would want to get his finger out asap.

Bit harsh tbh.

Malice

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Bit harsh tbh.

Momo's a great option for taking on the likes of Barcelona but his limitations are exposed as soon as we have to exert continuous pressure on opponents. His passing and shooting are terrible. It's all well and good being able to run all day and break up attacks but if there aren't any attacks to break up he's of no use on the pitch. Also his performance against Marseille was one of the worst I've ever seen him put in. I doubt he managed to put in half a dozen passes to a red shirt all night. I don't really want to single him out in that game though as virtually the entire team was awful that night.

jesus_thats_gre

malice_ wrote: »

Momo's a great option for taking on the likes of Barcelona but his limitations are exposed as soon as we have to exert continuous pressure on opponents. His passing and shooting are terrible. It's all well and good being able to run all day and break up attacks but if there aren't any attacks to break up he's of no use on the pitch. Also his performance against Marseille was one of the worst I've ever seen him put in. I doubt he managed to put in half a dozen passes to a red shirt all night. I don't really want to single him out in that game though as virtually the entire team was awful that night.

The point I am making is that we are no where near the point of actually giving up on him. One of the benefits of having an extremely large squad is that you can have players like this that are extremely useful in specific matches. We are only gonna come up against the likes of Barcelona when it really counts and having a player on the books that will run the life out of, and kick the crap out of, the Barca players is quite handy.

We would be crazy to depend on him as first choice but we don't. He is 4th choice..

PHB

Except that, you can't just play a player in the big games and nothing else. You have to play him in other games, and so far, when he's plyaed, Liverpool have suffered.

Malice

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

The point I am making is that we are no where near the point of actually giving up on him. One of the benefits of having an extremely large squad is that you can have players like this that are extremely useful in specific matches. We are only gonna come up against the likes of Barcelona when it really counts and having a player on the books that will run the life out of, and kick the crap out of, the Barca players is quite handy.

We would be crazy to depend on him as first choice but we don't. He is 4th choice..

The problem is then though that when the player takes part in games where they probably aren't suited their limitations are exposed, their confidence takes a hammering and pundits everywhere are calling for them to be disposed of. There's not really much point having a player on the squad to only be used in half a dozen games per year. Although if that was all Momo was playing he could then work on his passing and shooting. Having said that, watch him play a blinder in the derby this weekend

DeadSkin

malice_ wrote: »

His passing and shooting are terrible. It's all well and good being able to run all day and break up attacks but if there aren't any attacks to break up he's of no use on the pitch. Also his performance against Marseille was one of the worst I've ever seen him put in. I doubt he managed to put in half a dozen passes to a red shirt all night.

Agree with ya about his passing/shooting, I don't think he should be allowed in the final third of the field myself
But he's a great tackler and has great stamina and can break down play.
The Marseille game he was bloody woeful at everything.
Sorry, but there will always be attacks to break up and I think when Momo is on form he's damn good at it.

jesus_thats_gre

PHB wrote: »

Except that, you can't just play a player in the big games and nothing else. You have to play him in other games, and so far, when he's plyaed, Liverpool have suffered.

Granted, I am not disputing that his performances have been generally poor this season.

I am saying that it is far too soon to be saying something along the lines of:

Dub13 wrote: »

I am starting to give up on Sissoko,he would want to get his finger out asap.

Dub13

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

I am saying that it is far too soon to be saying something along the lines of:

Well I don't think so,last season he looked very good but had one major fault he gave the ball away far far to much.I remember thinking if we can get that out of his game he could turn out to be class.

This season he has gone back wards big time,I know its early but it does not look good IMO.I hope he proves me wrong I would be delighted if he did.They way I see it is we have some great midfield players and if we want the win the PL we can not keep taken big risk's by playing someone who is not up to it at the very highest level.

4-age

DeadSkin wrote: »

Agree with ya about his passing/shooting, I don't think he should be allowed in the final third of the field myself
.

I know this isnt really got to do with real football but momo is marked as being able to play CF in pes 6:eek:

Mr Alan

think thats where he played when he started out, god know how though

Malice

As Dub13 says, I was hoping Momo's passing would improve with time. Unfortunately, like Riise's right foot (Barca goal excepted), Gerrard's ability to beat the first man from a corner and Kewell's fitness, we're stuck with what we've got .

The Insider

4-age wrote: »

I know this isnt really got to do with real football but momo is marked as being able to play CF in pes 6:eek:

Thats where he started out as a player believe it or not.

Dub13

The Insider wrote: »

Thats where he started out as a player believe it or not.

Also apparently according to a few of Finnans past coaches and managers his best position is center midfield.

zing

The Insider wrote: »

Thats where he started out as a player believe it or not.

I remember reading that Carra started as a CF as well and ended up working his way back down the field. Kewell did the opposite - started as a defender and worked his way foward.

Malice

zing wrote: »

Kewell did the opposite - started as a defender and worked his way foward.

I remember one of the old versions of Championship Manager (around 1997) had him in their database as a very handy left sided defender/wing back.

Mr Alan

Lads, just reading a book at the minute, I'd recommend it to ye all, its called, "Here We Go Gathering Cups In May", written by Nicky Allt, Tony Barrett, Jegsey Dodd, Peter Hooton, Dave Kirby, Kevin Sampson and John Maguire. Each of the lads pick one and talk about the finals in 1977,78,1981,1984,1985,2005 and 2007 (yes we are that good )....its all from a fans point of view with the emphasis more on the trip and craic and that than on the match itself.

Anyway its an absolutely super read, and these lads are proper fans so they aint just trying to make a few quid by cashing in.

Just had to get that off my chest!

PHB

Dub13 wrote: »

Also apparently according to a few of Finnans past coaches and managers his best position is center midfield.

RB and Defensive midfield lap over imo. Look at Hargreaves, Gerrard, Essien all spring to mind. I think they are all world class RB's, but since they are good enough they play in center midfield.

Stky10

zing wrote: »

I remember reading that Carra started as a CF as well and ended up working his way back down the field.

Must have been very early on in his career. In the youth cup winning team he was a part of, he played in central midfield mostly, but played CB in the final, due to the the regular player there being suspended. Never heard of him being played up front though.

jesus_thats_gre

zing wrote: »

I remember reading that Carra started as a CF as well and ended up working his way back down the field

Yup, read the exact same thing thing myself. Have tried looking for it before but have had no luck.

kaisersose77

PHB wrote: »

RB and Defensive midfield lap over imo. Look at Hargreaves, Gerrard, Essien all spring to mind. I think they are all world class RB's, but since they are good enough they play in center midfield.

Are half of your posts utter nonsense? Any good post is usually followed by most people thinking

gucci

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Yup, read the exact same thing thing myself. Have tried looking for it before but have had no luck.

Stky10 wrote: »

Must have been very early on in his career. In the youth cup winning team he was a part of, he played in central midfield mostly, but played CB in the final, due to the the regular player there being suspended. Never heard of him being played up front though.

Ah come on lads? He played most his first and second season in and out of midfield and full back as far as i can remember. remember him getting booked within 3minutes of making his debut against aston villa (nearly sure of that) and saying this guy means business!!

jesus_thats_gre

gucci wrote: »

Ah come on lads? He played most his first and second season in and out of midfield and full back as far as i can remember. remember him getting booked within 3minutes of making his debut against aston villa (nearly sure of that) and saying this guy means business!!

Am being serious. Apparently he started off as a forward, then dropped back to defensive midfield in his late teens, right back on his pro debut and then centre back under Rafa. Have never been able to find where I read it and was starting to think I was crazy until zing said it.

zing

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

was starting to think I was crazy until zing said it.

Or maybe we're both crazy ?

Mr Alan

No ye arent crazy. I remember him being interviewed on Sky Sports before and he said when he started playing football he was a Everton supporter who played as a striker, now he is a Liverpool supporter who is a centre half.

Chardee MacDennis

i remember that too.... also apparently Gerrard went for trials with Everton when he was a kid and they took him off at half time, he was so annoyed that he said he wouldnt play for them...

i disagree about full backs and cms needing the same skills to be honest Gerrard and Essien can play anywhere on the pitch - as for Hargreaves he should concentrate on one position and get that right. Even at sunday league level I can do well at full back but the game passes me by at cm.

astrofool

Mr Alan wrote: »

No ye arent crazy. I remember him being interviewed on Sky Sports before and he said when he started playing football he was a Everton supporter who played as a striker, now he is a Liverpool supporter who is a centre half.

An OG this weekend and he'll be back where he started

kaimera

Anyone know how are we fixed coming into tonights games as regards injuries for the derby game?

mike65

Alonso and Agger are marginal, as is Torres (hope he misses out tbh). Kuyt might start and Kewell could be on the bench.

Oh yes here's todays Daily Mail Crouch stay/goes story

Mike.

Mr Alan

Agger out.

Alonso & Torres hoping to be fit and ready.

Thats as much as i know for sure.

kaimera

Ta chaps

Mr Alan

Any chance someone could cut and paste that story into the thread pleeeeeease....

Why ya hope Nando misses out Mike?

mike65

Cos Everton would like nothing more than to poleaxe our most potent attacking figure.

The story is that Rafa says we need 4 strikers and so he's staying in a nutshell.

Rafael Benitez has moved to end rumours surrounding the future of Peter Crouch by insisting: "He is not for sale."
Speculation has been rife that the Reds' striker will be heading for the Anfield exit door during the next transfer window after failing to establish himself as a first team regular this season.

But Benitez insists Crouch still has a big part to play at the club and isn't available for transfer.

"People have been talking about Peter Crouch for two months, but he is our player and we don’t want to sell him.

"He is a nice boy, a good professional, a good player. It is clear that this team now with four strikers creates more competition for places, but I don't have any problems because Crouch is a good player."

Nice boy?

Mike

Mr Alan

ha ha ha Rafa is a legend. Cheers for that Mike.

Tbh, i still think if we got a decent offer for him and we could get in a decent replacement, rafa would let him go....I've been disappointed with Crouchs attitude this year, he doesn't really seem willing to fight for his place in the team.

In a perfect world we could get Huntelaar in for him, not sure how likely that is despit the rumours linking us with him, I'm sure there'd be the money...Babel and Kuyt being with us would surely help too.

HashSlinging

Well said Rafa, now let him play.

Mr Alan

Early signs seem to be that Gerrard may be made the scapegoat for this England failure (there always has to be one), hope he gets pissed off and quits. Concentrate on Liverpool.

mike65

Mr Alan he won't do that!

Mike.

Mr Alan

i know, but we can all wish

machiavellianme

I wonder if Finnan can produce a fine strike like that on Saturday? He certainly tried to have a go a few times tonight.

PiE

Whatever about Gerrard retiring from internationals... I really hope Finnan does.

Mr Alan

i think he will, he said he'd have to think about it after this campaign was finished, cant see him wanting to stay around with no real chance of ever playing in a major tournament again (due to both his age and his inept management team)