Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

DeadSkin

Got to see the second half, and about the last 15 mins of the first half, only thing positive I got outta the game was Lucas.
Strange substitions alright, but that's Rafa!!!!

I thought the celebrations at the end were a bit extreme, I know it was a derby but, did ya see Carragher running straight to the corner, kinda reminded me of when we won the CL. Rafa went over too. I dunno, I think it was a bit over the top.
Anywho, the ref was very poor, suppose it was just one of those days when decisions go our way, eh!!

mike65

fullstop, stop trolling and go away.

Mike.

~Rebel~

fullstop wrote: »

Well then stop making claims if you are not prepared to back them up:rolleyes:

If you really do really need one, how about after that terrible decision, the ref got demoted from the Premiership. Happy?

Great, moving on.

Was looking at the team, we'd have been fcked if anything happened to any defenders, very strange bench! Lucas, Babel, Pennant and Crouch as the outfielders. No Arbeloa which is strange, anyone hear about an injury to him? Aurelio's recovery must have slowed as well. No Alonso either. Hopefully he's ready for Wednesday.

Tusky

~Rebel~ wrote: »

If you really do really need one, how about after that terrible decision, the ref got demoted from the Premiership. Happy?

Great, moving on.

Was looking at the team, we'd have been fcked if anything happened to any defenders, very strange bench! Lucas, Babel, Pennant and Crouch as the outfielders. No Arbeloa which is strange, anyone hear about an injury to him? Aurelio's recovery must have slowed as well. No Alonso either. Hopefully he's ready for Wednesday.

Noticed that myself..surely thats a first ? Not a single defender on the bench. Arbeloa is great to have on the bench as he can play all across the back four and could probably play on the wing if needed too.

Rafas subs were very strange. If it were up to me I would have brought on Pennant for Sissoko and Babel on for Benayoun shortly after half time with Crouch on for Voronin on about 70 minutes.

Playing Sissoko, Lucas & Mascherano against a team with 10 men is very strange...

Mr Magnolia

Good 3 points to pick up, could be significant.

Thought that Everton should have been given both penalty decisions, I'll not complain too much though.

Neville has had 5 derby's, sent off twice and one own-goal, he must dread them.

GBX

I think the ref gave lots of decisions to Liverpool in the second half. Everton of course will feel hard done by all penalty decisions. but its the ref who gives the decisions, we just accept and take the 3 points!

Rafa reckons Lescott dived... bit of an Wenger comment that. I thought we were lucky to get away with the second pen decision.
Maybe this will kick us into gear after the last international break knocked the stuffing out of our run.

Gary

Mr Magnolia

Oh, I haven't a scooby what Rafa was at with the substitutions.

5starpool

If I was an Everton fan I would be raging at that ref. I thought Liverpool did get a lot of decisions, but as mentioned before, we have been on the wrong end as well a lot. What goes around etc I guess. We missed so many good chances to win though.

Zapp Brannigan

Wouldn't be too happy if I were an Evertonian!

But still, good result for Liverpool, hopefully we can do one on Arsenal next week!

Mr Alan

good result. Somewhat fortunate that the penos werent given against, but as has been said, what goes around comes around and all that.
Lucas looks like an excellent buy.

I honestly cant find fault with any decisions that Rafa made today....in fact, we won the game based on the decisions he made, the fact that people are moaning about him is beyond belief to me.

he said he took Gerrard off/Lucas on, cause sometimes when playing against 10 men, you need to play with your head and not your heart. His decision was totally justified by the fact that Lucas was at the centre of every chance/half chance we created after his introduction. This is why he is paid to manage the team and we are not.

Fair play Rafa, good work

Everton Team Liverpool
1 Goals 2
1 Shots on Target 7
6 Shots off Target 9
0 Blocked Shots 5
9 Corners 6
10 Fouls 16
0 Offsides 3
1 Yellow Cards 2
2 Red Cards 0
60.3 Passing Success 79.4
24 Tackles 24
75 Tackles Success 79.2
38.6 Possession 61.4
52.5 Territorial Advantage 47.5

d22ontour

Mr Alan wrote: »

good result. Somewhat fortunate that the penos werent given against, but as has been said, what goes around comes around and all that.

Seems to be the general consensus on boards today but .... I suppose the next time United foul someone and a penalty isn't given then according to the views here today Liverpool fans won't have anything to say seeing as what goes around , blah blah blah.

Mr Alan

I'm sure the Liverpools fans will still say..."that was never a ****ing peno", or "that should have been a peno" or watever....but sure thats football....read back over the last 3 pages and theres a few Utd fans talking ****e, its wats expected from rival fans

machiavellianme

When it comes to the crunch, Everton managed to score ZERO goals today (thanks Sami :rolleyes: ) so they neednt be whinging about penalties or whatnot. We can all use IFs and BUTs although theres no denying a final scoreline. Some bizarre decisions on both managerial and administrative fronts buts thats soccer.
My synopsis:
Rafa got lucky,
Liverpool got luckier,
But sure even Steve Staunton gets lucky the odd time with results.
3 points in the bag. Thats what matters. Now on to the CL.

jesus_thats_gre

zabbo wrote: »

Lucas was class in his 20mins.

We got lucky today...

Agreed on both points. Was really impressed with Lucas. We were very fortunate to come away with all 3 points. Guess it balances out getting robbed against Chelsea.

jesus_thats_gre

Mr Alan wrote: »

I honestly cant find fault with any decisions that Rafa made today....in fact, we won the game based on the decisions he made, the fact that people are moaning about him is beyond belief to me.

Was about to post the same thing myself. Particularly wanted to bring attention to Mike's post hoping that Rafa got punished for this decision making. The justification for taking Gerard off was perfectly valid and proved to be decisive.

KdjaCL

imo gerrard looked tired and lethargic subbing him was right you have a big game midweek.


kdjac

Malice

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Was really impressed with Lucas. We were very fortunate to come away with all 3 points. Guess it balances out getting robbed against Chelsea.

I also thought Lucas did well and that we were fortunate to come away with the three points but it doesn't come close to balancing out the robbery in the Chelsea match at all! As was pointed out at the time (I think), if we had we won that game we would have been +3 points and Chelsea would have been -3. This is a spread of six points in our favour. Had we drawn with Everton yesterday we would have been +1 and Chelsea would have been +3 after they beat Middlesborough. This is a spread of -2 in Chelsea's favour as nothing we did in the Everton game influenced what happened in Chelsea's game. Also, don't forget the psychological advantage that beating Chelsea would have given us, we could have gone out and won our next three games scoring twelve without conceding

PHB

Lads, the point I'm making about it being a lucky result isn't that things don't go around like this etc, obviously Chelseas decision against you was shocking and this was also shocking, but the thing is, Liverpool still havn't improved! Yes there are three points in the bag which is the most important thing, but going up against Arsenal next week, how confident are ya?

Waster

I don't agree that we haven't improved. We created loads of chances and played much better yesterday than we have in recent matches. If Torres was fit I think that we would have won handy. Even without him we should have walked it but bad finishing almost cost us. They created nothing. 1 shot on target all match.

machiavellianme

malice_ wrote: »

I also thought Lucas did well and that we were fortunate to come away with the three points but it doesn't come close to balancing out the robbery in the Chelsea match at all! As was pointed out at the time (I think), if we had we won that game we would have been +3 points and Chelsea would have been -3. This is a spread of six points in our favour. Had we drawn with Everton yesterday we would have been +1 and Chelsea would have been +3 after they beat Middlesborough. This is a spread of -2 in Chelsea's favour as nothing we did in the Everton game influenced what happened in Chelsea's game. Also, don't forget the psychological advantage that beating Chelsea would have given us, we could have gone out and won our next three games scoring twelve without conceding

Chelsea would have been -3? Dont follow your math there. You dont get points taken away for losing. (Although maybe you should as it would make things more interesting (and we'd be in second now)). We would have been +2 (as we got one for drawing) and they would have been -1. So a spread of 3 points surely?

Apparently Momo has told friends he wants to leave in January (according to the BBC's rumours page). Cant say I'd be sorry to see him go.

mike65

I have agree with PHB (shocking!)

I'm not convinced about Rafas thinking at all this season. Lucas did well, supposed he'd had 'mare would everyone be saying 'good move Rafa'? Doubt it. He thinks far too much about a simple game.

Also I hope we're out of the CL early on. Thats clearly still an ambition for him, but it nothing but an annoying distraction this season.

Mike.

machiavellianme

I concur. Rafa reeks of Staunton lately. Tinkering with positions and dreaming of future conquests when he clearly hasnt a clue what he's doing currently and is just fumbling from match to match.

Tusky

PHB wrote: »

Lads, the point I'm making about it being a lucky result isn't that things don't go around like this etc, obviously Chelseas decision against you was shocking and this was also shocking, but the thing is, Liverpool still havn't improved! Yes there are three points in the bag which is the most important thing, but going up against Arsenal next week, how confident are ya?

I think we have improved. Against Everton & Spurs we were much better than, for example, we were against Poto, Marseille & Birmingham. Lets not forget we have 4 first team players out injured.

Agger, Alonso, Kewell & Torres would all be in the starting lineup if they were fit. Aurelio is out as well. I believe we will come out of this slump and im happy enough with the results we are getting while in it. If we win our game in hand we are one point off utd and...

DeadSkin

Why are people still goin' on about Kewell, I know he's been very unlucky with injuries, but anytime I've seen him in a red shirt I haven't seen anything to come to expect alot out of him when he comes back.

PHB

But the same problem as last year still exists, utterly utterly dominating games against the better teams, having huge possession, restricing them to very few shots, but still missing an absolute ****load of chances. Injuries are having an effect, but injuries happen and you've gotta be able to deal with them. That's the difference between a good squad and a great squad. If you need Torres to play in every game, you won't be able to win the PL unless you get very lucky.

Skittlebrau

machiavellianme wrote: »

Rafa reeks of Staunton lately.

That's a joke right?

You're seriously comparing a manager who's won domestic leagues, cups and the Champion's League to Stan who has 6 months experience as a reserve team coach at Walsall and has overseen the Ireland team regressing to as bad a team I've known in my lifetime.

machiavellianme

Part joke. Part truth.
Not on the level of experience. Just on the number of mangerial blunders on a game to game basis and where focus is fixated: i.e. world cups and champions league finals we might never qualify for instead of the here and now.

Skittlebrau

What managerial blunders exactly?

machiavellianme

Players playing out of position, selecting the wrong players and "resting" key players when we clearly need a result. Making bizarre substitutions at the wrong times. Being too stubborn to stop tinkering when a team works.

Skittlebrau

machiavellianme wrote: »

Players playing out of position, selecting the wrong players and "resting" key players when we clearly need a result. Making bizarre substitutions at the wrong times. Being too stubborn to stop tinkering when a team works.

Stan has no equal when it comes to playing players out of position. Left backs as right backs and vice versa, defenders and strikers in the midfield.

Rafa at most has played one or two players out of position not half the team like Stan.

Selecting "wrong" players and resting "key" players basically comes down to your opinion and Rafa's differing. I'm not saying I agree with his team selections but saying that selecting a different front 2 than what you'd pick is a managerial blunder is hyperbole of the highest order.

And as for the substitutions, some work, some don't. Subbing Lucas for Gerrard yesterday won us the game. I doubt many people would have picked it but Rafa did and it worked.

Don't get me wrong. I'm as frustrated at some of his decisions as the next person but the overreacting on this thread pisses me off sometimes.

Comparing him to Stan is so wrong it doesn't even deserve a response let alone the 5 mins I spent coming up with this.

Nunu

malice_ wrote: »

I also thought Lucas did well and that we were fortunate to come away with the three points but it doesn't come close to balancing out the robbery in the Chelsea match at all! As was pointed out at the time (I think), if we had we won that game we would have been +3 points and Chelsea would have been -3. This is a spread of six points in our favour. Had we drawn with Everton yesterday we would have been +1 and Chelsea would have been +3 after they beat Middlesborough. This is a spread of -2 in Chelsea's favour as nothing we did in the Everton game influenced what happened in Chelsea's game. Also, don't forget the psychological advantage that beating Chelsea would have given us, we could have gone out and won our next three games scoring twelve without conceding

What the hell are you talking about

If you had beaten Chelsea you would have got an extra 2 pts(and Chelsea would be down 1pt - thats a spread of 3pts, not 6pts)...if you had drawn to Everton you would have lost 2 pts. Is it not as black and white as that?

Tusky

machiavellianme wrote: »

Players playing out of position, selecting the wrong players and "resting" key players when we clearly need a result. Making bizarre substitutions at the wrong times. Being too stubborn to stop tinkering when a team works.

What works against one team may not work against another. Also, who has he been playing out of position ?

---

Kuyt

Benayoun----Voronin----Gerrard

---

Sissoko---Mascherano

Riise----Hypia---Carragher---Finnan


That was the team he played yesterday With Voronin and Gerrard swapping at times.

They ended like this...

---

Voronin----Kuyt

Pennant

---

Lucas

---

Babel

---

Mascherano

I'm not sure who you think he has played out of position, Arbeloa at left back where he marked Messi out of the game ? Gerrard on the right wing ? (I think this is his best position)...


Id really likke to see this lineup... 4-2-3-1

---

Torres

Babel

---

Gerrard

---

Pennant

---

Mascherano---Alonso

Arbeloa----Carragher---Agger---Finnan


or you could change the front 3 to

---

Torres

Babel

---

Kuyt

---

Gerrard

You could even have Benayoun in there instead of Kuyt/Gerrard.

Here is a bit of a comparison of this season so far to last showing how many points we have taken this season and comparing the results. I think it shows that people are being far too negative and the buying into the media scapegoating of Rafa...This time last season we were in 10th place and the season was passing us by. At the moment we are in 4th place, if we win our game in hand we are one point off 2nd place. Our away form has improved dramatically and we finally seem to have a top quality striker. Oh, and we are still unbeaten. Have faith!

Points this season :

HOME
Chealsea - 1
Derby - 3
Birmingham - 1
Spurs - 1

AWAY

Aston Villa - 3
Sunderland - 3
Portsmouth - 1
Wigan - 3
Everton - 3

When you look at the results above, there is one noticibly bad one - Birmingham. We also could have done better against Spurs & Portsmouth but apart from that things have gone ok.

This season : 19 W5 D4 L0
Last Season : 11 W3 D2 L4

This season : Won 4 games away from home from first 5
Last Season : Won 6 games away from home for the whole season

machiavellianme

Tusky wrote: »

What works against one team may not work against another. Also, who has he been playing out of position ?

I understand that lineups may not work against every team but playing Riise, a poor left back as an even poorer winger is difficult to fathom considering Babel and Yossi are much stronger in that position. Also Pennant on the left or Yossi on the right rarely works as the quality of their final cross is never as good. And of course the most glaring example of all....Momo in CM instead of Left Back(in the stands)
These are just a few examples, and I wont go into the postions of the Irish team which I was making the comparison to as theres hardly any need.

Tusky

machiavellianme wrote: »

I understand that lineups may not work against every team but playing Riise, a poor left back as an even poorer winger is difficult to fathom considering Babel and Yossi are much stronger in that position. Also Pennant on the left or Yossi on the right rarely works as the quality of their final cross is never as good. And of course the most glaring example of all....Momo in CM instead of Left Back(in the stands)
These are just a few examples, and I wont go into the postions of the Irish team which I was making the comparison to as theres hardly any need.

Thats not playing players our of positions. Riise is a LB/LW. He has done well for us on the LW in the past. If it were up to me I would play Babel on the LW but thats a difference of opinion, it doesnt mean hes playing him out of position. Pennant very rarely plays on the LW but I actually think he often plays better there than on the right as he will cut inside. I cant remember him ever starting a game on the LW either. Him and Babel were swapping wings yesterday...so that doesnt count as playing someone out of position either.

Skittlebrau

machiavellianme wrote: »

And of course the most glaring example of all....Momo in CM instead of Left Back(in the stands)

Yeah playing a centre midfielder in centre midfield!! What the hell was he thinking?? :rolleyes:

The quality of the players in positions is a different issue entirely but your point about players in wrong positions is almost completely baseless.

~Rebel~

malice_ wrote: »

it doesn't come close to balancing out the robbery in the Chelsea match at all! As was pointed out at the time (I think), if we had we won that game we would have been +3 points and Chelsea would have been -3. This is a spread of six points in our favour. Had we drawn with Everton yesterday we would have been +1 and Chelsea would have been +3 after they beat Middlesborough. This is a spread of -2 in Chelsea's favour as nothing we did in the Everton game influenced what happened in Chelsea's game. Also, don't forget the psychological advantage that beating Chelsea would have given us, we could have gone out and won our next three games scoring twelve without conceding

The way results have gone this season, we're pretty much all square with Chelsea. the 2 extra points a win would have gotten us against chelsea were gotten yesterday. Meanwhile Chelsea Lost 2 points when they're perfectly legitimate goal against Blackburn was ruled out for no reason. So they're -2 rather then just the 1 they got from us. We can take the other 1 as payment for the "psychological advantage", which i dont buy for a second, as we went on playing great stuff till the international break - doesnt matter how big a psychological advantage you have, you still only get 3 points. I dont think beating chelsea in the second game of the season would have seen us beat pompy weeks later.

~Rebel~

Linked with another wunderkind, another dane, by the name of Simon Kjaer.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11669_2816024,00.html

Liverpool are reported to have joined the race to sign highly-rated Danish teenager Simon Kjaer.

The 18-year-old defender, currently with FC Midtyjlland, has been linked with Middlesbrough and a number of clubs across Europe.

Reds boss Rafael Benitez is now believed to have sent his scouts to Denmark and is said to have been impressed by their reports.

Kjaer's agent, former Middlesbrough striker Mikkel Beck, insists that the Denmark Under-19 international has the talent to be rated alongside some of the game's greats.

Beck told The Sunday Sun: "You realise how special this kid is when Liverpool watch him and tell you he's good enough to play in their first team.

"Messi, Rooney, Dos Santos - he is special like them.

"Lille and Monaco were the first to show an interest, then Real made a much better offer and it was turned down. He is worth a lot more."

Zapp Brannigan

His agent is comparing a defender to Rooney, Messi and Dos Santos!? At least make compare him to players that play in the same position! Richards, Pique etc.

5starpool

Does anyone else think that the fact that Gerrard is English meant there was less of an uproar after the game about him having a word with Clattenburg when he had the yellow card out, and then he immediately changed it for a red? If that was Torres or Babel, I think there would have been a big hoohah abot foreign players trying to get the ref to send people off. I for one was not happy to see Gerrard go to the ref and (presumably) point out to him that it should be a red and not a yellow.

If it was Ronaldo for example I know we would all be outraged. Maybe another example of double standards?

~Rebel~

5starpool wrote: »

Does anyone else think that the fact that Gerrard is English meant there was less of an uproar after the game about him having a word with Clattenburg when he had the yellow card out, and then he immediately changed it for a red? If that was Torres or Babel, I think there would have been a big hoohah abot foreign players trying to get the ref to send people off. I for one was not happy to see Gerrard go to the ref and (presumably) point out to him that it should be a red and not a yellow.

If it was Ronaldo for example I know we would all be outraged. Maybe another example of double standards?

I dont think so. there was a big difference in what Gerrard did and, say, what we've seen Joe Cole do.

Im pretty sure every player there would have said "yeah, that has to be a straight red". He didn't get in his face, he didn't rush over doing the "immitating card" thing. He walked over, said it and walked off. Cant see anything for anyone to complain about there to b honest.

Would we prefer that Clatterberg didn't change his mind when reminded of the rules? This one wasn't a decision that could change based on opinion or perspective. Hibbert was the last man by a mile and the pen was already given. It would have been worse imo if gerrard had said it and the ref didnt give the proper call, which is clear in the rules, out of spite. I think this was more a case of common sense prevailing.

I dont agree with people rushing over to the ref brandishing an imaginary card, but i think a player is fully entitled walk over and say "hang on a sec, thats an obvious red".

Mr Magnolia

Maybe there wasn't the uproar because it was a sending off offence.

ButcherOfNog

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

Maybe there wasn't the uproar because it was a sending off offence.

That might be it, if he hadn't of walked the ref would have been in trouble.

Steven Gerrard, a ref's best friend

Tusky

I really dont see what peoples problem with this is. Its not like Gerrard had a word and then the ref made the wrong decision base don that. He had given the penalty, he was the last man back, it HAD to be a straight red. Gerrard wasnt overly aggresive about it, he just said it as he walked past.

It was a red card offense so I dont see what the problem is.

jesus_thats_gre

mike65 wrote: »

I'm not convinced about Rafas thinking at all this season. Lucas did well, supposed he'd had 'mare would everyone be saying 'good move Rafa'? Doubt it. He thinks far too much about a simple game.

Not sure if I am getting you here Mike. Are you actually saying that it is right to criticise the decision considering there was a possibility he wasn't gonna play well?

~Rebel~

Its very hard to criticize Lucas coming on. Rafa knew what he could do, and he did it. However who he came on for imo is still a bit baffling. Would definately have preferred Momo to go off. There was no work for him left to do at that point.

The only thing i can think of is that Rafa might have thought that if Gerrard was still on the pitch, he might be haring around the place, demanding the ball and not letting Lucas do his thing.

jesus_thats_gre

Did no one actually hear Rafa's justification for the substitution? It made perfect sense and in the end, whether you like it or not, was vindicated.

~Rebel~

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Did no one actually hear Rafa's justification for the substitution? It made perfect sense and in the end, whether you like it or not, was vindicated.

Yeah i heard the "play with heads rather then hearts", which was right, but the head only needs to dictate things, the heart player can still be there getting amongst them. I guess Rafa figured Gerrard wouldnt let Lucas do his thing and rather then looking to get on the end of things would be trying to dictate things himself.

Its a smidge worrying that we often look much better as a unit and team without Gerrard..

PHB

Yeh like, Momo being in the team allows the rest of the team to push forward. You were drawing with Everton, still needed to ensure you got at least one point. I don't understand how people can criticise that substition, it won you the game.

Mr Alan

Ya can tell things are getting bad when PHB has to be the voice of reason on this thread, but he is dead right. Shame on all who criticised the substitution!

event

5starpool wrote: »

Does anyone else think that the fact that Gerrard is English meant there was less of an uproar after the game about him having a word with Clattenburg when he had the yellow card out, and then he immediately changed it for a red? If that was Torres or Babel, I think there would have been a big hoohah abot foreign players trying to get the ref to send people off. I for one was not happy to see Gerrard go to the ref and (presumably) point out to him that it should be a red and not a yellow.

If it was Ronaldo for example I know we would all be outraged. Maybe another example of double standards?

course it is.
At the end of the day, sugar coat it all you like, but gerrard went down easily and then said it to the ref to send him off.
Can you imagine if Drogba, robben, ronaldo etc had ever done that against liverpool? Christ, it'd be all over the papers and talked about for weeks. But because its good old stevie g, its ok, cos we know english players dont dive, right?