Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

machiavellianme

The official site game man of the match to Jay Spearing. By the sounds of it, we're pretty good going forward but not great at the back? Seems a much more attacking midfield than the senior team too.

Don't think Kelly is Irish. According to http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/team/squad/kelly/
he was born in Bolton. Maybe his parents though?

copacetic

machiavellianme wrote: »

The official site game man of the match to Jay Spearing. By the sounds of it, we're pretty good going forward but not great at the back? Seems a much more attacking midfield than the senior team too.

@emc2 pretty sure he is english.he was deffo given man of the match on lfctv.

Was a pretty open game and newcastle attacked a lot.

Guy:Incognito

machiavellianme wrote: »

Don't think Kelly is Irish. According to http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/team/squad/kelly/
he was born in Bolton. Maybe his parents though?

Jesus, look at his DOB, makes me feel so old.:) Before he was 6 months old I had been to watch Ireland compete in a major international tournament and watch them on tv in another. It's so depressing.

Mr Alan

Lads thought this was an excellent post i saw on a Liverpool fansite.....food for thought for some maybe???

---

Posted by Adi Dassler

Rafa's far from perfect but he's only been in the job for 3 and a half years after inheriting a pretty ****e squad. Yes he's had money to spend but only big money from this season. Torres is our record buy but he's cost about the same as 2 of the mancs squad players Nani and Anderson. Yet a few people keep comparing him to 2 managers Ferguson and Wenger. To compare him to the 2 best managers in the league in recent times who've got over 30 years experience in the English game between them is hardly fair though. After 3 and a half years in his Manchester United career, Ferguson had won? Yes that's it **** all. Now don't get me wrong he's a great manager and has since won ****in loads but having the benefit of being able to lash out huge sums of money and having an exceptional crop of home grown youngsters all coming through at the same time. You could argue that he helped the likes of Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, the Neville's, Butt et al develop, but their youth acadamy's hardly continued in this rich vein while he's been there has it? He's also made mistakes in the transfer market Taibi, Djemba-Djemba, Veron, Kleberson, Liam Miller are a few that come to mind. But but because he's never had to make wholesale changes to overhaul a poor squad these **** signings haven't really mattered. Oh and Rafa's got a better record in 3 season's in the Champions League than Ferguson has in 20 odd years with the mancs.

Now Wenger, another great manager and yes he's got a squad of mainly young players playing wonderful football at the mo, but the myth that they all cost 50p and we're plucked straight out of a 5 a side team in Senegal is utter bollocks. The youngsters they have got cost in many cases a fair few bob, and Arsenals youth policy is the result of 10 years work by Wenger not 3 years. Also his team were playing great football last year remember as we saw in 2 games at Anfield, but what did they win? **** all, and the season before? **** all. Also the myth perpetuated by the press that Rafa's hasn't got a clue in the Prem, how come we've finished above the great Arsenal for the last 2 seasons?

Yes Rafa has made mistakes and we're currently in a rut, but if you wanna compare him to anyone in terms of experience in English football and money spent it's not Ferguson or Wenger it's probably Martin Jol. Make's you think eh?

machiavellianme

and look whats just happened to Jol.
Watch your back Rafa....Watch your back

Mr Alan

ha ha ha

PHB

Based on the myth that Rafa hasn't spent money, which he clearly has

Chardee MacDennis

this is an old argument but he has spent a bit of money but he has never been in the position Ferguson has been in where if he had 20m he could afford to spend it on one plyer while rafa could never do that and instead had to buy 3/4 average players to cover our weak positions.

Mr Alan

where does it say Rafa hasnt spent money? rafa has spent large amounts of money, but for a different purpose, he has spent it to build a team, whereas Ferguson over the last few years has only really being adding almost certain quality to a Championship winning team.

PHB

That's not the case. Rafa made a choice to replace every single player in the squad pretty much. He had the choice between spending top money on one player, or buying two average players. He almost always choose 2 average players, hence why Liverpools squad currently has such lack of quality in depth.

Em, as you are no doubt aware, Rafa won the CL with the team that largely Houllier had put together. They weren't all that bad, and weren't really a huge different in class between what you have now. He's replaced crap with slightly better crap.

Chardee MacDennis

well in fariness its better than it was when we got it and i would prefer Alonso, Pennant and Garcia than one Ferdinand or Veron.

PHB

Really? How about this, would you prefer Crouch and Kuyt or Torres and Cisse?

machiavellianme

Call_me_al wrote: »

this is an old argument but he has spent a bit of money but he has never been in the position Ferguson has been in where if he had 20m he could afford to spend it on one plyer while rafa could never do that and instead had to buy 3/4 average players to cover our weak positions.

Yes but if we had one John O Shea* type utility player who could do that for say 3-5 million, we could blow the rest on someone decent. No point increasing the number of Defensive Midfielders we have from 11 to 15 and having to pay wages and what not and still being crap in the weak positions. Come back Djimi. All is forgiven


*Not actually John O Shea but someone capable of playing around the field without breaking the bank to buy.

Mr Alan

PHB: do you think the team Rafa inherited was good enough to win the PL?

Surely if you dont then Rafa was right to start overhauling the team?

Chardee MacDennis

hmmm i would have to go with Torres and Cisse there but its not as easy as that. And if Rafa was given the choice I am sure he would go for T&C but you dont get straight choices like that.

Edit: actually considering it for a bit longer, Cisse is pure poison and unless we started playing one up top I would go for K&C, even then the minute Torres picks up an injury we would be f***ed.

Mr Alan

Plus although the team that won the CL was largely Houlliers, i think we can all agree that it was two of Rafas first purchases that played a bigger part than everyone except Stevie, Alonso and Luis Garcia.

Melion

Does anyone think we can get a result against Arsenal?

I can see it being 2 or 3-1 to us. They WONT beat us, not at Anfield

Mr Alan

Wouldnt be as sure as you but yea we could definately beat them

Melion

Leto looked like a potential world beater again tonight.

Oh and Hobbs didnt play tonight cause he was in the squad for last nights game

~Rebel~

Here's just one thought on potential team for Arsenal;

---

Alonso--Masch
Pennant---Yossi----Gerrard

---

Torres

if yossi is getting bullied a bit then switch for lucas. If gerrard is having one of his better games, shift him center (not allowed out of the final 3rd of the pitch), take off yossi or pennant (whoever is playing worse) and put babel into the space gerrard will be providing (given that if he's playing well he'll be doubled up on)

HashSlinging

I think the game on Sunday will be worth a flutter, for liverpool of course, I'd say the odds are against us.

Hope HArry makes a start..

Zapp Brannigan

Certainly we can beat Arsenal. On our day we can beat anyone. but it's gonna take a massive performance from all the lads and a real step up from last weeks performance.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Well let's hope for a bit of a backlash on weekend so, need to show a bit of backbone now. Hope Torres is fit.

Dont be at yourself

I reckon we'll see:

---

Reina
Finnan-Carra-Hyppia-Riise
----Alonso-Sissoko
Gerrard--Kuyt/Voronin-Babel

---

Torres

With Alonso back, I can't see Gerrard playing centre. He'll probably be playing off Torres, swapping with Kuyt/Voronin at times. I reckon Babel could have a good game, playing against Arsenal should suit his style.

machiavellianme

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

I reckon we'll see:

---

Reina
Finnan-Carra-Hyppia-Riise
----Alonso-Sissoko
Gerrard--Kuyt/Voronin-Babel

---

Torres

With Alonso back, I can't see Gerrard playing centre. He'll probably be playing off Torres, swapping with Kuyt/Voronin at times. I reckon Babel could have a good game, playing against Arsenal should suit his style.

I hope not. With both Hyppia and Momo on board we might as well give them the 3 points now. Worst case scenario, Sissoko plays to do a man marking job. Sami I'm afraid needs to sit this one out. His pace will kill us against the youngsters at the Arsenal. I doubt he could even keep up with old Gilberto at this stage. Plus he's prone to an OG or two. I really hope neither Kuyt nor Voronin play also as they've been inexplicably poor of late. Even poorer than I've come to expect of them (which isnt much). Lash Crouch in there and see if he can do anything to increase his value come January.

Dont be at yourself

I only have Sami in the team because of the lack of alternatives. We have to play with a back 4, and against Arsenal, the back 4 will have to be well aware and used to each other. I do believe that Arbeloa and Hobbs are both capable of doing a job, but the Arsenal game is not the game to bed them in.

Sissoko or Macherano? Macherano is undoubtedly the better footballer, but the Arsenal players don't respond well to the rough-and-tumble that Sissoko would bring. His passing isn't the best, but he'd have Alonso beside him. Also, Macherano has been playing a tonne of games recently, both for Liverpool and Argentina. Don't wanna burn him out!

HashSlinging

Not sure about hobbs against arsenal TBH, against the likes of bermingham maybe but in no way is he ready for a baptisimal of fire against arsenal I have to go with our current OG specialist in that position.

I think Arsenals attacking game will suit us, so I can see Crouch - Torres up front, YossiB, Babel, Alonso, Gerrard, Finnan, Carra,Hyppia,Pennant.

lucas might start also, Kewell on the bench but anyone can have a guess right.

7 - 1 for the draw at the moment if anyones interested.

event

TBH, that was a poor article

its basically slagging fergie and wenger, saying that fergie was lucky to get the youngsters, and that wenger hasnt really plucked that many kids. Its poor from any other perspective other than liverpool

while talking about rafa's signings, how many did he get wrong?

morientes, nunez, josemi, kronkamp, paletta, im sure there are others. In fact, id like to know, how many players has rafa signed in his time at liverpool, and how many of them has he now sold?

i know ye have probably made money on them, or broke even, but his job is to win the league, not balance the books.

the point is, he has spent an awful lot of time assembling his squad, whilst is shouldnt have taken that long really. he is ok in the transfer market, i wouldnt say amazing or anything

Cyrus

you have to admire how quikcly he moves players on tho, if they are rubbish they get sold

houllier hung onto them regardless

Mr Alan

event wrote: »

TBH, that was a poor article

its basically slagging fergie and wenger, saying that fergie was lucky to get the youngsters, and that wenger hasnt really plucked that many kids. Its poor from any other perspective other than liverpool

while talking about rafa's signings, how many did he get wrong?

morientes, nunez, josemi, kronkamp, paletta, im sure there are others. In fact, id like to know, how many players has rafa signed in his time at liverpool, and how many of them has he now sold?

i know ye have probably made money on them, or broke even, but his job is to win the league, not balance the books.

the point is, he has spent an awful lot of time assembling his squad, whilst is shouldnt have taken that long really. he is ok in the transfer market, i wouldnt say amazing or anything

Did we read the same article? It doesnt "slag" Wenger or Ferguson, it refers to them as the best two managers of modern times in England?! All it states is that Ferguson had an exceptional crop of talent come through at the same time (which is true) and that he took him a fair few years to get it right. And that Rafa is obviously clued up enough in the league to finish ahead of the mighty arsenal in the last two seasons?!

Yea Rafa has bought a fair few dud players in his time, but as Cyrus has pointed out, he has never been shy in admitting his mistake and getting rid. He has also bought some excellent players.

Its not fair to compare Rafa to Ferguson & Wenger. Its fairer to compare him to Martin Jol, both in England similar time, bought spent a fair bit of money in order to overhaul a squad of players, but while doing so Rafa has also had great successs with the CL in 2005, Super Cup 2005 & FA cup 2006, as well as another CL final.

event

Mr Alan wrote: »

Did we read the same article? It doesnt "slag" Wenger or Ferguson, it refers to them as the best two managers of modern times in England?! All it states is that Ferguson had an exceptional crop of talent come through at the same time (which is true) and that he took him a fair few years to get it right. And that Rafa is obviously clued up enough in the league to finish ahead of the mighty arsenal in the last two seasons?!

it implies that fergie and wenger were lucky in some parts

but having the benefit of being able to lash out huge sums of money and having an exceptional crop of home grown youngsters all coming through at the same time. You could argue that he helped the likes of Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, the Neville's, Butt et al develop, but their youth acadamy's hardly continued in this rich vein while he's been there has it?

to me, that seems like, yeah he's done very well, but he got a good batch of kids coming through, that helped.

but the myth that they all cost 50p and we're plucked straight out of a 5 a side team in Senegal is utter bollocks. The youngsters they have got cost in many cases a fair few bob,

thats bollocks, he did get a lot of them cheap

toure - 150,000
eboue - 1.5 million
RVP - 2.5 million
diaby - 2 million
cesc - something like 500,000


thats just to name a few, who were bought for a pittance, compared to what they were worth.

Mr Alan wrote:

He has also bought some excellent players.

true, but he has bought a good few duds in a short space of time, or players that didnt work out

Cyrus

event wrote: »

it implies that fergie and wenger were lucky in some parts



to me, that seems like, yeah he's done very well, but he got a good batch of kids coming through, that helped.



thats bollocks, he did get a lot of them cheap

toure - 150,000
eboue - 1.5 million
RVP - 2.5 million
diaby - 2 million
cesc - something like 500,000


thats just to name a few, who were bought for a pittance, compared to what they were worth.



true, but he has bought a good few duds in a short space of time, or players that didnt work out

Hang on, fergie and wenger have both bought plenty of duds, and plenty of very high profile ones, veron/reyes to name two.

Sure wenger got the players listed above cheap, liverpool have bought a raft of cheap teenagers in the last 12-18 mths im sure some will come good aswell. Cesc was cheap because he was taken before he signed a contract, it wasnt as if a price of 500k was agreed

Chardee MacDennis

HashSlinging wrote: »

7 - 1 for the draw at the moment if anyones interested.

where? Liverpool odds on favourite (7-5) with paddy power at the moment and the draw is only 21-10

PHB

to me, that seems like, yeah he's done very well, but he got a good batch of kids coming through, that helped.

Firsts first championship winning team was before that. The kids were the second team, with 99 being the third team, 02/03 being the 4th, and arguable this the 5th.

Wenger has made a total net purcahse since he took over of -480,000.

All managers buy dubs, but Rafa has bought as many as Wenger or Fergie in his three year reign. Yes he hsa done well to move them on right quick, but he also bought them in the first place.

Sure wenger got the players listed above cheap, liverpool have bought a raft of cheap teenagers in the last 12-18 mths im sure some will come good aswell.

lol It just means now Liverpool have a half decent youth policy. Rafa will be pleased if one of them comes good. Wenger is special in regards of youth talent, there's no point in denying that.

And that Rafa is obviously clued up enough in the league to finish ahead of the mighty arsenal in the last two seasons?!

This is hilarious to be honest. Wenger was building towards something, and that something you are only beginning to see this season, and probably much more next season. He was actually going through transition. Rafa hasn't build towards much at all. The only young players getting experience are Alonso and Agger.

Rafa is in a different league to Jol, everybody knows that.

As for the whole Fergie had ateam to build on etc etc, of the players now in the United squad that were around when Rafa joined and play pretty reguarly, you have

Ferdinand, Neville, Brown, Silvestre, O'Shea, Scholes, Ronaldo, Giggs. The rest have all been bought in that time period.

Rafa has
Finnan, Carragher, Hyypia, Gerrard, Riise

5 first teams each, but United have three extra utility defenders

In that time period, United have bought the following players:

Rooney, Saha, Park, Foster, VDS, Vidic, Evra, Kuszczak, Carrick, Hargreaves, Anderson, Nani, Tevez

13 in total

Liverpool have bought and kept the following players:

Alsono, Reina, Sissoko, Crouch, Agger, Palletta, Kuyt, Pennant, Aurelio, Leto, Babel, Benayoun, Torres, Voronin, Lucas, Arbeloa, Mascherano

17 in total

This has been for roughly the same price, a net spend from United from United of £83,070,000 and Liverpool of £78,770,000.
So let me ask you again, do you really buy this whole Rafa has had to build from scratch crap? United had 3 extra defensive cover, so even if you take out the cost of those players in the Liverpool squad now, Agger (5.8) Aureilo (0) Aurbeloa (2.6) that's 8.4 million. So 83 million vs. 78 million for the following:


Rooney, Saha, Park, Foster, VDS, Vidic, Evra, Kuszczak, Carrick, Hargreaves, Anderson, Nani, Tevez

Liverpool:

Alsono, Reina, Sissoko, Crouch, , Palletta, Kuyt, Pennant, Leto, Babel, Benayoun, Torres, Voronin, Lucas, Mascherano

Who is doing better lads

event

Cyrus wrote: »

Hang on, fergie and wenger have both bought plenty of duds, and plenty of very high profile ones, veron/reyes to name two.

yeah i know, but i wonder how many have they bought in 3 years

Cyrus wrote:

Sure wenger got the players listed above cheap, liverpool have bought a raft of cheap teenagers in the last 12-18 mths im sure some will come good aswell. Cesc was cheap because he was taken before he signed a contract, it wasnt as if a price of 500k was agreed

ach i know, im more saying that i thought the piece wasnt that great, i know liverpool have overhauled the youth team too, just didnt think yer mans points were great, thats all. Seems like he was trying to back rafa up or something, when he doesnt really need it. TBH, its not like he is in any threat or anything, its just usual press talk.

Cyrus

PHB wrote: »

Rooney, Saha, Park, Foster, VDS, Vidic, Evra, Kuszczak, Carrick, Hargreaves, Anderson, Nani, Tevez

Liverpool:

Alsono, Reina, Sissoko, Crouch, , Palletta, Kuyt, Pennant, Leto, Babel, Benayoun, Torres, Voronin, Lucas, Mascherano

Who is doing better lads

Rooney v torres - cant call yet id prefer torres as a more out and out striker
Saha v Crouch - saha but crouch has been statistically effective in his liverpool career this far
Alonso v hargreaves - alonso
park v pennant - pennant
reina v VDS - not much in it reina wins on age
tevez v voronin - tevez
nani v babel - so far babel
carrick v mascherano - mascherano
anderson v sissoko - thus far sissoko
Foster v (carson missing?) - carson
vidic v paletta - vidic dunno why paletta included tho he was bought as a youth player never considered a first teamer ditto leto

you get the drift

Cyrus

event wrote: »

yeah i know, but i wonder how many have they bought in 3 years

fergie had an awful spell the time he was replacing first schmiechal and then keane, a load of duff keepers incl bosnich, taibi, howard followed by a stream of rubbish midfield, djemba, brazilian lad, and then alan smith even played there

HashSlinging

Does anyone remember that Theo Walcott wanted to come to Liverpool as he was a liverpool "fan" all his life.. . And Rafa wouldnt pay 15million for a teenager...what a major f**kup.

HashSlinging

Call_me_al wrote: »

where? Liverpool odds on favourite (7-5) with paddy power at the moment and the draw is only 21-10

Last night I looked up paddypower.com and thats the odds they were at, damn, they must know Kewell is going to play.

Ardent

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml;jsessionid=0O1MKYVPIF1Y1QFIQMFSFGGAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/sport/2007/10/26/sfnliv126.xml

Winters is spot on. Benitez needs to rethink his strategy. I'm Benitez's biggest fan - or at least was until very recently - but I'm beginning to have doubts about his ability to win the league in England. I can't believe he told Hicks and Gillett that the key to winning the league is a bigger squad - if he really thinks that we're f*cked. Ferguson, Wenger and Mourinho have repeatedly proven that the diffference is actually playing your best players week in week out. I think the season Arsenal went unbeaten they had a total of 16 outfield players! Let's face it, your average team in the FAPL outside the top 4 is pretty ****, it's not rocket science.

Regading Winters views on our stikers, I agree again. I think it's obvious to all and sundry that Kuyt is not up to the required standard and and Veronin is merely a bargain basement utility player. The way Crouch has been treated is beyond comprehension. Whenever Crouch was called upon last season, he delivered spectacularly and put in some important performances. Now he's practically frozen out and you have to sympathise with a player who's clearly struggling to find some form as a result of rarely being selected. Something is not right here and, as Winters pointed out, either start playing him or sell in the next transfer window.

Other than the money spent on Torres, I can't help but shake the feeling that Benitez has pissed away a lot of money. It still beggars belief that he didn't purchase a genuine left winger in the summer. Maybe that's why he wasn't allowed to purchase players at Valencia but rather manage those he was given?

PHB

Who is doing better lads
Rooney v torres - cant call yet id prefer torres as a more out and out striker
Saha v Crouch - saha but crouch has been statistically effective in his liverpool career this far
Alonso v hargreaves - alonso
park v pennant - pennant
reina v VDS - not much in it reina wins on age
tevez v voronin - tevez
nani v babel - so far babel
carrick v mascherano - mascherano
anderson v sissoko - thus far sissoko
Foster v (carson missing?) - carson
vidic v paletta - vidic dunno why paletta included tho he was bought as a youth player never considered a first teamer ditto leto

Wow, Liverpool win 8/10. It's really amazing how Fergie can win the league which players who are clearly worse than Liverpool's. What world are you living on :rolleyes:

HashSlinging

Fergie knows you can win the premiership on penalties.

RE*AC*TOR

The match will be a test of both team's credentials.

Arsenal haven't had to travel out of London much in the premier league thus far, nor have they had to play a top 4 team.

Liverpool, obviously, are in the **** at the moment. Its just not gelling as you would hope. A win would put us square in the middle of the title race, a draw would more or less keep things as they are, while a loss would leave a title challenge looking fairly strained.

I still go back to August, with the Heinze affair. It was a gamble by Benitez not to have a second option. He gambled that his centre-halves would stay fit, with Hyppia able to provide occassional cover. In hindsight it was a mistake, especially in europe.

Hopefully Torres, Agger et al., will be fit on Sunday....

Cyrus

PHB wrote: »

Wow, Liverpool win 8/10. It's really amazing how Fergie can win the league which players who are clearly worse than Liverpool's. What world are you living on :rolleyes:

what you expected me to let you list the players out and let your unsaid inference that the united players were better hang there

not likely, plus im right

PHB

Cyrus wrote: »

what you expected me to let you list the players out and let your unsaid inference that the united players were better hang there

not likely, plus im right

Well how come you didn't win the league then? Maybe it's the other sets of players. I would agree with that too, Ferdinand better than Carragher, Neville better than Finnan, Scholes better than Gerrard.
It's gotta be tough to maintain the belief in your squad being top quality despite all the evidence to the contrary. Ultimately, Rafa has done a poor job in the transfer market in the last 3 years, he's replaced crap with slightly better crap. Like if all these players are so good, why do they keep losing?

Spud83

Cyrus wrote: »

Rooney v torres - cant call yet id prefer torres as a more out and out striker
Saha v Crouch - saha but crouch has been statistically effective in his liverpool career this far
Alonso v hargreaves - alonso
park v pennant - pennant
reina v VDS - not much in it reina wins on age
tevez v voronin - tevez
nani v babel - so far babel
carrick v mascherano - mascherano
anderson v sissoko - thus far sissoko
Foster v (carson missing?) - carson
vidic v paletta - vidic dunno why paletta included tho he was bought as a youth player never considered a first teamer ditto leto

you get the drift

I have to argue this, Hargreaves has played like three games, Anderson three, Park has been injured alot and is better than Pennant(I'm sorry he is muck), I cant see how you can give a win because of age in that case anderson beats sissoko, Foster will be better than Carson.

Cyrus

why if uniteds squad is better did liverpool win the champions league once and get to the final in 3 years when united havent got to the final since 99?

a lot of it is to do with mentality and belief, united have it based on recent success in the league, we dont

neville better than finnan PUH LEASE

missingtime

For the weekend my biggest worry is the fact that we were so uninventive on wednesday, and against Everton. We obviously need to improve on that or it will be another embarrasment...

I think the fact that Benitez has done so much buying-the team never gets a chance to settle. There are always new players that everyone else has to adapt to and by the end of the season they have, but of course then its too late.

But Benitez is stubborn and I cant see him changing. We need to get a good assistant very soon I think.

Cyrus

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

I have to argue this, Hargreaves has played like three games, Anderson three, Park has been injured alot and is better than Pennant(I'm sorry he is muck), I cant see how you can give a win because of age in that case anderson beats sissoko, Foster will be better than Carson.

hargreaves has played three games there fore hasnt proved anything ergo alonso is better, ditto anderson. Park is rubbish, pennant is average.

Ok reina beats vds on stats aswell, hows that

how do you know foster will be better than carson? he hasnt shown it yet

Nunu

Flippin hell Cyrus you are quite the blinkered one!:D