Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

missingtime

There isn't much between Park and Pennant really. Park has scored more goals though...and I would probably prefer him on our team.

Wow, I really don't like Pennant.

Cyrus

Nunu wrote: »

Flippin hell Cyrus you are quite the blinkered one!:D

i dont think so, anyone think im way off on any of the player v players?

HashSlinging

Spot on mate.

Mr Alan

PHB wrote: »

Maybe it's the other sets of players. I would agree with that too, Ferdinand better than Carragher, Neville better than Finnan, Scholes better than Gerrard.
It's gotta be tough to maintain the belief in your squad being top quality despite all the evidence to the contrary. Ultimately, Rafa has done a poor job in the transfer market in the last 3 years, he's replaced crap with slightly better crap. Like if all these players are so good, why do they keep losing?

rafa has been working with massive limitations in the transfer market up until this summer.

Even at the minute, there is not much between Liverpools first 11. You are stronger on the wings, no doubt about that, but we are stronger in central midfield, no doubt about that. Nothing in the defence or goalie, Torres is as good as any striker ye have, and Kuyt is an excellent player imo. This is excluding players like...Aurelio,Lucas,Crouch,Mascherano,Carson,Yossi,Kewell etc etc. who all have the ability to be in any title winning side.

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Reina

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Finnan---Carragher--Agger--Riise/Arbeloa

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Alonso

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Gerrard

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Pennant

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Babel---

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Kuyt

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Torres

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You seem to have taken a view that fergusons team this year is simply better than anything Liverpool have to offer? Very strange to do that in October, considering there is 4 points between us and we have a game in hand? I truely hope it comes back to bite you on the arse in May.

You mention that Wenger has been building something? Wat the **** do you think Rafa is doing? Agger-Reina-Alonso-Torres-Lucas-Babel-Mascherano? This is the spine of a team that is going to win a title. We might not be in a position to win one at the minute, but the fact of the matter is, i dont know for sure, either do you. But adding more quality over the next couple of years and we are there.

Wat we do know is........
Rafa is a better manager after 3 years in England than Ferguson was after 3 years. FACT.

starman100

New stadium costs soar by £150 million to £400 million:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/merseyside/7063388.stm

Hmmm, that amount of money would buy a LOT of very decent players, Hicks doesn't seem overly concerned but he would say that wouldn't he?

PHB

Benetiz under pressure:

"One of the reasons we made the signings we did in the summer was to create the depth we now have. Rafa explained to George and me that is how you win the Prem, because you have to play every team twice," Hicks said. "We totally support Rafa, nobody wants to win more than Rafa. But I know when we committed the resources for signings in the summer the whole idea was to have a team that could compete for the Premier League. We've not had the depth previously to do that.

"This squad is good enough to win things. It should be winning things. If it doesn't we'll have to look at the circumstances and have a meeting at the end of the year to understand what happened. I don't want to predict failure, I want to predict success."

hargreaves has played three games there fore hasnt proved anything ergo alonso is better, ditto anderson. Park is rubbish, pennant is average.

Ok reina beats vds on stats aswell, hows that

how do you know foster will be better than carson? he hasnt shown it yet

eh he has, just look at last seasons premiership for some evidence. Foster was widely regarded as one of the best keepers in the premiership this season, so much so that United brought him back. Carson is still out on loan, and If i'm not mistaken, Rafa is looking to move him on.

Park has scored more goals last season that Pennant has scored in his entire Liverpool career.
Last season park scored 5 goals and got 2 asissts in 8 starts and 6 sub appearances. Pennant got 1 goal and 6 assists in 20 starts and 15 sub appearances. Do the match.

Don't compare Alonso to Hargreaves, compare him to Carrick. Compare Hargreaves to Mascherano. Similar style players. So let me ask you, you watched Alonso last season, and you watched Carrick last season, who was better?
As for Hargreaves vs. Mascherano, I'd say they are pretty equal, Hargreaves has won a lot more than him though. Just so you know, these people have played before they came to England. That said, pretty equal.

So far this season, Nani and Babel, both have played 8 games, Nani has gotten 1 goal and 3 assists, Babel has gotten 1 goal and 0 assists.

Also this whole Crouch has been more effective thing. Since Crouch has joined Liverpool, Crouch has played a total of 110 games (incl subs) and scored 33 goals and 16 assists. Saha has played 68 games scored 30 goals and gotten 11 assists. You do the math.

Also I love, how you say Alonso must be better than Hargreaves as Hargreaves hasn't played yet, yet you say Torres than Rooney is better? What sort of sense is that? =

neville better than finnan PUH LEASE

No imo they are equal. That said, Neville has won pretty much everything there is to win at RB, and wins the best right back in the league consistantly every year from the other players.

Spud83

Cyrus wrote: »

hargreaves has played three games there fore hasnt proved anything ergo alonso is better, ditto anderson. Park is rubbish, pennant is average.

My point is you are comparing players who have played three games, against players who have played near full seasons.

Cyrus wrote: »

Ok reina beats vds on stats aswell, hows that

What stats?

Cyrus wrote: »

how do you know foster will be better than carson? he hasnt shown it yet

I thought he showed last year, but maybe thats just me.

Mr Alan

In fairness lads Carson was widely regarded as one of the top goalies in the league last year too, the reason he was loaned out again is because he knows he is gonna be on the bench all season because Reina is still young and very much among the top 3 goalies in the league. Whereas Foster was gonna get a shot to challenge aging VDS for his place.
There is nothing between the two of them imo. Whoever said.....Foster will be better than Carson......is talking out their arse.

Even an off form Alonso was better than Carrick last year by the way. And dont use, " oh well carrick won the league last year", that argument doesnt hold water, we are talking about individual players not teams, we know Utd were better than Liverpool last year.

PHB

Mr Alan wrote: »

rafa has been working with massive limitations in the transfer market up until this summer

No he hasn't!
Rafa spending since joined £78,770,000.
Fergie spending since then £83,070,000

Jesus, stop accepting the utter myths put forth. Look at my post before, it wasn't about comparing who has done better, it was showing that this whole crap that Rafa has had to rebuild ignores the fact that Fergie has done the same thing in the same amout of time, for similar money.

This is the point i'm trying to make, the comparisons are just for fun.

Even at the minute, there is not much between Liverpools first 11. You are stronger on the wings, no doubt about that, but we are stronger in central midfield, no doubt about that.

Much better on the wings no doubt about that. As for central midfield? Maybe last season, but this season, Hargreaves, Carrick, Scholes Fletcher is as good as Gerrard, Alonson, Mascherano, Sissoko.

Up front?
Torres is as good, I'd agree. That said, Saha and Tevez are much better than Kuyt, Crouch and Voronin. You only have to watch them once to see that. [That said, I like Kuyt, he works his ass off]

As for defense? Say Carragher is as good as Vidic, which I would just about agree on, and Neville is as good as Finnan.
Evra is much much much better than Riise or Arbelio. Ferdinand is much better than Agger, and then for depth, Brown/Pique are much better than Hyypia.

You seem to have taken a view that fergusons team this year is simply better than anything Liverpool have to offer? Very strange to do that in October, considering there is 4 points between us and we have a game in hand? I truely hope it comes back to bite you on the arse in May.

Watch them play. Liverpool had a nice start, then went back to normal. United had a poor start, then went back to normal.

You mention that Wenger has been building something? Wat the **** do you think Rafa is doing? Agger-Reina-Alonso-Torres-Lucas-Babel-Mascherano? This is the spine of a team that is going to win a title.

Why isn't it then? Wenger spent the last three years building and now look at them. If Rafa has been building, what's happening to you now? If he is building, he's building poorly.

Rafa is a better manager after 3 years in England than Ferguson was after 3 years. FACT.

No doubt about that. That said, you forget what United were like when he joined. When Fergie took over, United were on the edge of the relegation zone with big Ron in charge. The game was a lot different back then.

Cyrus

PHB wrote: »

Park has scored more goals last season that Pennant has scored in his entire Liverpool career.
Last season park scored 5 goals and got 2 asissts in 8 starts and 6 sub appearances. Pennant got 1 goal and 6 assists in 20 starts and 15 sub appearances. Do the match.

Don't compare Alonso to Hargreaves, compare him to Carrick. Compare Hargreaves to Mascherano. Similar style players. So let me ask you, you watched Alonso last season, and you watched Carrick last season, who was better?
As for Hargreaves vs. Mascherano, I'd say they are pretty equal, Hargreaves has won a lot more than him though. Just so you know, these people have played before they came to England. That said, pretty equal.

So far this season, Nani and Babel, both have played 8 games, Nani has gotten 1 goal and 3 assists, Babel has gotten 1 goal and 0 assists.

Also this whole Crouch has been more effective thing. Since Crouch has joined Liverpool, Crouch has played a total of 110 games (incl subs) and scored 33 goals and 16 assists. Saha has played 68 games scored 30 goals and gotten 11 assists. You do the math.

Also I love, how you say Alonso must be better than Hargreaves as Hargreaves hasn't played yet, yet you say Torres than Rooney is better? What sort of sense is that? =



No imo they are equal. That said, Neville has won pretty much everything there is to win at RB, and wins the best right back in the league consistantly every year from the other players.

i didnt say crouch was more effective than saha, i said he was effective for liverpool

i said id prefer torres to rooney (as an out and out striker) again he has also played before he came to england

finnan has also won pretty much everything

course youd say hargreaves and mascher are equal, they arent tho mascher is better, so what of he didnt play for bayern munich, is neil lennon a great player because celtic clean up in scotland?

and to reiterate mascher and alonso are better than carrick and hargreaves whichever way you want to split it

Nunu

Mr Alan wrote: »

There is nothing between the two of them imo. Whoever said.....Foster will be better than Carson......is talking out their arse.

.

It's not that far fetched a statement to say Foster will be better than Carson. From what I've seen Foster looks the better all round keeper.

...Whoever said... Liverpool are stronger in central midfield, no doubt about that...is talking out of their arse:p

Spud83

Mr Alan wrote: »

Wat we do know is........
Rafa is a better manager after 3 years in England than Ferguson was after 3 years. FACT.

He took over a team that was always around the top four and thats where ya still are at this moment. When Ferguson took over we were in the relegation position and finished eleventh the following year we finished second behind one of the best liverpool teams ever.

Rafa won the CL(with basically the previous mansgers team) and got into the final, well done but remember when Ferguson took over you had to win the league to qualify. Liverpool under Benitez in my opinon are only slightly better off then yas were under Gérard Houllier.

PHB

Cyrus wrote: »

i didnt say crouch was more effective than saha, i said he was effective for liverpool

If that's the case, United won the league with Saha at the front. The reason they got such a good start was how he played. Also, watch Crouch for Liverpool, the amount of chance he miss are shocking.

i said id prefer torres to rooney (as an out and out striker) again he has also played before he came to england

Yet you say ultimately that Hargreaves has only played 3 games, therefore automatically Alonso is better. Why isn't that the same with Rooney and Torres?

finnan has also won pretty much everything

Indeed, pretty equal players imo.

course youd say hargreaves and mascher are equal, they arent tho mascher is better, so what of he didnt play for bayern munich, is neil lennon a great player because celtic clean up in scotland?

Take a look at Hargreaves medal haul then ask the question again. It's not just the German league (which comparing to Scotland is utterly laughable)

and to reiterate mascher and alonso are better than carrick and hargreaves whichever way you want to split it

Did you watch ALonso play last year? Like do you remember how shocking he was? His form was woeful.

Cyrus

PHB wrote: »

No he hasn't!
Rafa spending since joined £78,770,000.
Fergie spending since then £83,070,000

Jesus, stop accepting the utter myths put forth. Look at my post before, it wasn't about comparing who has done better, it was showing that this whole crap that Rafa has had to rebuild ignores the fact that Fergie has done the same thing in the same amout of time, for similar money.



Much better on the wings no doubt about that. As for central midfield? Maybe last season, but this season, Hargreaves, Carrick, Scholes Fletcher is as good as Gerrard, Alonson, Mascherano, Sissoko.

Up front?
Torres is as good, I'd agree. That said, Saha and Tevez are much better than Kuyt, Crouch and Voronin. You only have to watch them once to see that. [That said, I like Kuyt, he works his ass off]

As for defense? Say Carragher is as good as Vidic, which I would just about agree on, and Neville is as good as Finnan.
Evra is much much much better than Riise or Arbelio. Ferdinand is much better than Agger, and then for depth, Brown/Pique are much better than Hyypia.



Watch them play. Liverpool had a nice start, then went back to normal. United had a poor start, then went back to normal.



Why isn't it then? Wenger spent the last three years building and now look at them. If Rafa has been building, what's happening to you now? If he is building, he's building poorly.



No doubt about that. That said, you forget what United were like when he joined. When Fergie took over, United were on the edge of the relegation zone with big Ron in charge. The game was a lot different back then.

whats the net spend? also those figures are still somewhat meangingless as ferguson was adding to a title winning side liverpool were trying to build one

PHB

Those figures quoted are the net spend.

But as I've already stated, very very very very clearly,

As for the whole Fergie had ateam to build on etc etc, of the players now in the United squad that were around when Rafa joined and play pretty reguarly, you have

Ferdinand, Neville, Brown, Silvestre, O'Shea, Scholes, Ronaldo, Giggs. The rest have all been bought in that time period.

Rafa has
Finnan, Carragher, Hyypia, Gerrard, Riise

5 first teams each, but United have three extra utility defenders

....


So let me ask you again, do you really buy this whole Rafa has had to build from scratch crap? United had 3 extra defensive cover, so even if you take out the cost of those players in the Liverpool squad now, Agger (5.8) Aureilo (0) Aurbeloa (2.6) that's 8.4 million.

The comparative squads were then built for 83 million for United and 70 million for Liverpool.

Jesus Wept

Why is Crouch getting no time on the pitch? I'd much rather see him play than Voronin.

Spud83

Cyrus wrote: »

whats the net spend? also those figures are still somewhat meangingless as ferguson was adding to a title winning side liverpool were trying to build one

He was pretty much over hauling a title winning side.

Mr Alan

PHB wrote: »

No he hasn't!
Rafa spending since joined £78,770,000.
Fergie spending since then £83,070,000

Do you know the total amount of players both managers have signed in 3 years?? I think Rafa has signed around 30 or something....dont have access in work, but if ya dont i can check it out over the weekend. Eg has Rafa been able to spend 18 millions on kids that have proven nothing and may or may not be a success? I know we got babel in the summer, but again he was 11 million, and i have already conceeded that we had money this summer.

PHB wrote: »

Much better on the wings no doubt about that. As for central midfield? Maybe last season, but this season, Hargreaves, Carrick, Scholes Fletcher is as good as Gerrard, Alonson, Mascherano, Sissoko. .

Gerrard, Alonso, Sissoko, Mascherano is a better CM, sorry but i genuinely think that. Hargreaves has proven nothing in England other than that he is very injury prone. And Scholes is finished, legs are gone, amazing player, but it is being seen less and less. Has yet to have a decent game since August.

PHB wrote: »

Up front?
Torres is as good, I'd agree. That said, Saha and Tevez are much better than Kuyt, Crouch and Voronin. You only have to watch them once to see that. [That said, I like Kuyt, he works his ass off].

Saha is a sicknote, you know this. So in actual fact, wat you are asking is Torres and Rooney are equal....so would we prefer Tevez over Voronin,Kuyt AND Crouch, the answer is i would prefer the later. Tevez scored 7 goals all last season. Still has a lot to prove.

PHB wrote: »

As for defense? Say Carragher is as good as Vidic, which I would just about agree on, and Neville is as good as Finnan.
Evra is much much much better than Riise or Arbelio. Ferdinand is much better than Agger, and then for depth, Brown/Pique are much better than Hyypia. .

See this is where me and you differ GREATLY! imo you are somparing the wrong players.
The i'd work it is, Carragher is better than Ferdinand, and there is nothing between Agger and Vidic. Evra is probably better than any LB we have at the moment. So i would call it 2-2 draw when it comes to the defence. I agree, you have better cover.

PHB wrote: »

Watch them play. Liverpool had a nice start, then went back to normal. United had a poor start, then went back to normal..

See normal for us is having an awful start and then going great from Christmas on, so we have already broken our previous seasons form, by being in contention at the start of November. Plus it looks like we may not have Europe to worry about after Christmas.

PHB wrote: »

Why isn't it then? Wenger spent the last three years building and now look at them. If Rafa has been building, what's happening to you now? If he is building, he's building poorly..

So are Wengers great plans etc all ****ed when Arsenal go through a bad patch this season? Will you then say Wenger has built poorly?
No you wont, teams go through bad spells, like we are at the minute, even title winning teams. You know this.

whatawaster

Oh and Agger is as good as Ferdinand, is nowhere near as ugly or annoying, and in a year or two will be far better than him. His performance in the second leg against Chelsea last year was as good a defensive display as I saw all year.

PHB

Let's ignore the players vs. player stuff for a second:

Do you know the total amount of players both managers have signed in 3 years?? I think Rafa has signed around 30 or something....dont have access in work, but if ya dont i can check it out over the weekend. Eg has Rafa been able to spend 18 millions on kids that have proven nothing and may or may not be a success? I know we got babel in the summer, but again he was 11 million, and i have already conceeded that we had money this summer.

These were choices he made. Different plans.

Rafa has signed a total of 32 players, Fergie has signed 18.
However, Rafa has sold 15 of these on, Fergie has only sold 5 of these on.
Rafa has added 17 to the squad, Fergie has added 3. When you consider that Fergie had those 3 extra defenders, Fergie and Rafa have pretty similar squad sizes.

Two myths need to be dealt with here:

A. Rafa was building from scratch, Fergie was working from a better basis.

I've already shown,
Liverpool players still around: Finnan, Carragher, Hyypia, Gerrard, Riise
United players still around: Ferdinand, Neville, Brown, Silvestre, O'Shea, Scholes, Ronaldo, Giggs

They both have 5 first teamers, with United having 3 extra defensive covers.

B. Rafa has had financial limiations.

Net spent is Fergie 83 million, Rafa 78 million.
When you take into account the signing of defensive cover (Agger, Palletta, Arbelio) it's 83 vs. 70 million. Not exactly a huge difference.

The article you posted is based on those myths, which are just flatly untrue.
Liverpool are where they are because of Rafa's choices. He had no massive disadvantages compared to Fergie.

Nunu

whatawaster wrote: »

Oh and Agger is as good as Ferdinand, is nowhere near as ugly or annoying, and in a year or two will be far better than him. His performance in the second leg against Chelsea last year was as good a defensive display as I saw all year.

See this is what it boils down to when a lot of people are giving opinions about Rio...they can't see past their dislike of the chap. He has been immense for Utd the last 2 seasons. His performance v Roma a few weeks back was the best display I've seen from a centre half in quite a while.

Ferdinand is a world class centre half. I am happy to have him at Utd over any Liverpool defenders and actually think he is better than Vidic.
I don't think Agger will ever be as good as him...and reckon Pique will be a better player than Agger.

Mr Alan

I really dont think we are singing from the same hymn sheet here PHB, the reason Rafa has bought nearly twice the amount of players that Ferguson has is because HE HAS NOT HAD THE MONEY TO BUY PLAYERS THAT ARE PRETTY MUCH GUARUNTEED TO BE A SUCCESS LIKE FERGUSON HAS! He has had a certain amount of players that he has needed to purchase in order to just keep the club ticking over,as well as trying to add quality for a decent price. Wat is the average transfer fee Utd have paid from a first team member compared to Liverpool in the last three years? These are all very relevant but you choose to ignore them because they dont suit your argument.

So Rafa has a budget every summer, and he knows wat he needs-but because he cannot go out and spend 35 million on two players, he needs to prioritise, he buys players that are good enough for a title winning side when they are available at a good price (reina,alonso) and he buys players that are good enough to keep the side competitive while he is rebuilding the team (bellamy,kronkamp), these players are then sold on when he is able to "upgrade them".

This summer is the first when we have been able to go out and buy genuinely exciting world class (or potentially) world class players, Babel & Torres.

missingtime

Guys I thing ye are missing a really really big point here...

The liverpool board are rubbish. They are waaay too slow at doing anything they do not seem to comprehend how fast things need to move or how to make the club bigger.

The united board have pretty much given Fergie everthing - even before the yanks came in.

whatawaster

PHB wrote: »

Let's ignore the players vs. player stuff for a second:



These were choices he made. Different plans.

Rafa has signed a total of 32 players, Fergie has signed 18.
However, Rafa has sold 15 of these on, Fergie has only sold 5 of these on.
Rafa has added 17 to the squad, Fergie has added 3. When you consider that Fergie had those 3 extra defenders, Fergie and Rafa have pretty similar squad sizes.

Two myths need to be dealt with here:

A. Rafa was building from scratch, Fergie was working from a better basis.

I've already shown,
Liverpool players still around: Finnan, Carragher, Hyypia, Gerrard, Riise
United players still around: Ferdinand, Neville, Brown, Silvestre, O'Shea, Scholes, Ronaldo, Giggs

They both have 5 first teamers, with United having 3 extra defensive covers.

B. Rafa has had financial limiations.

Net spent is Fergie 83 million, Rafa 78 million.
When you take into account the signing of defensive cover (Agger, Palletta, Arbelio) it's 83 vs. 70 million. Not exactly a huge difference.

The article you posted is based on those myths, which are just flatly untrue.
Liverpool are where they are because of Rafa's choices. He had no massive disadvantages compared to Fergie.

Rafa never had a choice to spend 30 million on any player like united did on Rooney. And that is a fact. It was just never an option. So Rafa didn't have the same choices in the transfer market that fergie did. Kuyt cost somewhere in the region of 10 million and David Moores had to delve into his own pockets for that purchase.

I still agree though, that Rafa's purchase record is patchy. Though he does seem to be getting better at it.

Mr Alan

Yea but Utd had much more money available to them from their previous decade of success, higher gate reciepts etc etc, the board did wat it could. In fairness too, Moores himself "loaned" Liverpool the money to get Kuyt from his own pocket (greats minds whatawaster!:))

whatawaster

Nunu wrote: »

See this is what it boils down to when a lot of people are giving opinions about Rio...they can't see past their dislike of the chap. He has been immense for Utd the last 2 seasons. His performance v Roma a few weeks back was the best display I've seen from a centre half in quite a while.

Ferdinand is a world class centre half. I am happy to have him at Utd over any Liverpool defenders and actually think he is better than Vidic.
I don't think Agger will ever be as good as him...and actually think Pique will be a better player than Agger.

Ferdinand is not a world class defender. He should be, because he has all the attributes of one. He's fast and good in the air. But he's not brave enough, he goes asleep at least once every match I see him play. He thinks he's better on the ball than he is.

SteM

whatawaster wrote: »

Ferdinand is not a world class defender. He should be, because he has all the attributes of one. He's fast and good in the air. But he's not brave enough, he goes asleep at least once every match I see him play. He thinks he's better on the ball than he is.

To be fair to him, he's cut out a lot of the silly mistakes he used to make. He seems to concentrate a lot more now for the full 90 minutes. I'm not sure how often you see him play but I certainly don't 'see him go to sleep at least once every match' and I'd watch 99% of United's games. Even when he does go to sleep his defensive partner is usually there to make up for it - that's why defences partnerships are so important.

He does seem very composed on the ball, most pundits seem to think the same. It's rare that a mistake that he makes is caused by dwelling on the ball or trying to play football from the back so I'm not sure what you mean by your last statement.

I don't think he's 'world class' but he's certainly one of the best in the Premier League.

RE*AC*TOR

willy waving galore

event

so now rafa has all the money he wants, success in the league is to be expected?

event

whatawaster wrote: »

Ferdinand is not a world class defender. He should be, because he has all the attributes of one. He's fast and good in the air. But he's not brave enough, he goes asleep at least once every match I see him play. He thinks he's better on the ball than he is.

just because he is not an in your face defender, people dont think he's as good as terry or carragher.

you do not have to be exceptionally brave to be a centre half, speed and reading of the game do fine.

and tell us then, when is the last time he has gone to sleep in a game, if it happens in every match you see him in, you must remember.

dobsdave

Whats going on here lads?
I thought this was meant to be LFC thread.
I've just gone through about 2 pages of posts consisting somewhat about comparisons from Man Utd fans about how much fergie has spent/not spent etc etc.
Not really interested in Man U, or Chelsea or Arsenal,or even Everton.
Is there a general football thread ye could bring this to?

Thanks in advance

ntlbell

event wrote: »

just because he is not an in your face defender, people dont think he's as good as terry or carragher.

you do not have to be exceptionally brave to be a centre half, speed and reading of the game do fine.

and tell us then, when is the last time he has gone to sleep in a game, if it happens in every match you see him in, you must remember.

QFT

I've said it plenty of times before carragher ends up jumping around like a mad man which looks like he's doing a lot of work he's not, he's just blowing hot air making up for his very poor footballing brain.

cson

whatawaster wrote: »

Rafa never had a choice to spend 30 million on any player like united did on Rooney. And that is a fact. It was just never an option. So Rafa didn't have the same choices in the transfer market that fergie did. Kuyt cost somewhere in the region of 10 million and David Moores had to delve into his own pockets for that purchase.

I still agree though, that Rafa's purchase record is patchy. Though he does seem to be getting better at it.

Torres anyone?

Mr Alan

dobsdave wrote: »

Whats going on here lads?
I thought this was meant to be LFC thread.
I've just gone through about 2 pages of posts consisting somewhat about comparisons from Man Utd fans about how much fergie has spent/not spent etc etc.
Not really interested in Man U, or Chelsea or Arsenal,or even Everton.
Is there a general football thread ye could bring this to?

Thanks in advance

No thread exists like that exists. We are talking about Liverpools squad in comparrison with Utds. Its very relevant to this thread.

cson wrote: »

Torres anyone?

If you had have read the posts discussing this, i believe you'll find that everyone has agreed that this summer, liverpool had proper money.We are talking about before that in the main.

Plus Torres was 21 million

PHB

Mr Alan wrote: »

I really dont think we are singing from the same hymn sheet here PHB, the reason Rafa has bought nearly twice the amount of players that Ferguson has is because HE HAS NOT HAD THE MONEY TO BUY PLAYERS THAT ARE PRETTY MUCH GUARUNTEED TO BE A SUCCESS LIKE FERGUSON HAS! He has had a certain amount of players that he has needed to purchase in order to just keep the club ticking over,as well as trying to add quality for a decent price. Wat is the average transfer fee Utd have paid from a first team member compared to Liverpool in the last three years? These are all very relevant but you choose to ignore them because they dont suit your argument.

So Rafa has a budget every summer, and he knows wat he needs-but because he cannot go out and spend 35 million on two players, he needs to prioritise, he buys players that are good enough for a title winning side when they are available at a good price (reina,alonso) and he buys players that are good enough to keep the side competitive while he is rebuilding the team (bellamy,kronkamp), these players are then sold on when he is able to "upgrade them".

Why is that the case? I've shown you that Rafa had to re-build the squad just lke Fergie did. I've shown you the same amount of net spend. The difference between Rafa and Fergie isn't a limiation, it's that Rafa choose to not buy top class players, he bought lots of crappy players.

This summer is the first when we have been able to go out and buy genuinely exciting world class (or potentially) world class players, Babel & Torres.

No it's not, it's the first time you actually did. Two summers ago you made the choice to buy Morientes and Crouch for 12.3 million. The Season after you bought Kuyt and Bellamy for 15 million. Each of those summers, instead of buying two good players, you could have bought one very good player.
Rafa made the choice.

Just to make this clearer:

Total Spending each year (just in terms of spending)
United:

04: 52
05: 7.5
06: 29
07: 51

Liverpool:
04: 30 mill
05: 30 mill
06: 29 mill
07: 49 mill

whatawaster wrote: »

Rafa never had a choice to spend 30 million on any player like united did on Rooney. And that is a fact. It was just never an option. So Rafa didn't have the same choices in the transfer market that fergie did. Kuyt cost somewhere in the region of 10 million and David Moores had to delve into his own pockets for that purchase.

He did have the same choices. He just went a different route. Fergie spent big on some players, and very small on other good buys. Rafa spent average on pretty much everyone and got average results.

Rafa has brought in 4 more players than Ferguson into the current team since he took over. They did it for roughly the same transfer budget, with Fergie's being 6 more. Rafa went one route, Fergie went another. Rafa was not limited. In 2005 he bought Bellamy and Kuyt for a total of 15.6 million. He could have kept Ciise and bought Torres for 5 million more. Rafa has not been as limited as people make out. This season he has been given a big budget, but his net spend over the last few years have been on par with United's, it's just he choose to do it differently.

When he has spent money on either quality of potential he has done it right. Alonso and Agger were both buys for potential, at prices you'd expect. Torres looks great as does Lucas and Babel. The problem with Rafa was the utter crap he bought instead. Players like Morientes, Gonzalez, Garcia, Bellamy who have all been moved on cost a total of 20 million or thereabouts. That coulda been used on one player like Torres and it would made the squad much better. That's what Fergie has done, and it's something that Rafa has only done sparingly.

cson

Mr Alan wrote: »

If you had have read the posts discussing this, i believe you'll find that everyone has agreed that this summer, liverpool had proper money.We are talking about before that in the main.

Plus Torres was 21 million

Apologies.

All the same the money spent on Diouf and Heskey (In or around £24m for the two iirc ) would have bought a tidy little striker back then.

jesus_thats_gre

cson wrote: »

Torres anyone?

Are you ****ing retarded? Read the posts before posting!!

What most here are arguing is considerably more complicated but when it boils down to it, Rooney was signed in August 2004 for a similar fee as Torres 3 years later.

How much both were signed is anyones guess but when Liverpool were signing Josemi and god knows who else to rebuild a squad in Rafa's first year, United were splashing anything up to 30 million on a single player.

You can also consider the fact that 30 millon 3 years ago is a much bigger deal than 21 million today.



EDIT: 30 million for Rooney

http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid={FE60904B-C2A8-4E60-9B05-700DBBC29BBC}&section=playerProfile&teamid=458&bioid=91962

cson

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Are you ****ing retarded? Read the posts before posting!!

No, thankfully I'm not mentally handicapped.

Ever made a mistake? Calm down ffs.

meditraitor

PHB wrote: »

Total Spending each year (just in terms of spending)
United:

04: 52
05: 7.5
06: 29
07: 51

Liverpool:
04: 30 mill
05: 30 mill
06: 29 mill
07: 49 mill

.

3 Man United 38 23 6 9 64 35 29 75
4 Liverpool 38 16 12 10 55 37 18 60

This is the placings at the end of 2003/4 season, so to use your LOGIC Fergie already had a team that on a bad year (2003/4) were still 15 points better of than liverpool.

Your point doesnt stand up to any scrutiny as the starting point for benitez was well below the point united were as a team.

They(united) started in a better position and spent more money- comparing the two teams as equal over this period to show who is the better manager is not valid..

Mark

PHB

Points comparisons are silly in that regard, if you look at the actual players that were there efore and are still there now, you get a much better picture.

I've already shown,
Liverpool players still around: Finnan, Carragher, Hyypia, Gerrard, Riise
United players still around: Ferdinand, Neville, Scholes, Ronaldo, Giggs, Brown, Silvestre, O'Shea,

United were in a slightly better position in terms of having 3 more defensive cover players, while both teams had 5 first team regulars. In total spending terms, United spent about 139.5 total while Liverpool spent 138 total.

Mr Alan

PHB wrote: »

Rafa choose to not buy top class players, he bought lots of crappy players..

No, you're wrong again, he bought players who were "good enough" to keep Liverpool competitive while 1)strenghtening the areas that were of higher priority, 2) waiting for the nescessary financial backing to be given to the club.

PHB wrote: »

Two summers ago you made the choice to buy Morientes and Crouch for 12.3 million. The Season after you bought Kuyt and Bellamy for 15 million. Each of those summers, instead of buying two good players, you could have bought one very good player.
Rafa made the choice..

Morientes and Crouch are 2 strikers, so Rafa obviously figured we needed two strikers, first off-12.3 million would not have bought any world class striker at the time. second-even if he only spent the money on one player, that would have left us short over the course of the year, and who knows? Liverpool may have slipped further down the league. It would have been a stupid gamble for Rafa to take to put all his eggs in one basket.

PHB wrote: »

He did have the same choices. He just went a different route. Fergie spent big on some players, and very small on other good buys. Rafa spent average on pretty much everyone and got average results..

I agree it was his choice to go down this route, Fergie spent big on some players and made some good small buys, i agree as well, but the fact is the players he spent big on, Liverpool could not even nearly afford and again if they had have spend their entire budget on one player, it would have been a huge gamble, and could possibly have damaged liverpool football club beyond repair.

Average results? CL (equalling your great managers CL haul in his first season) & FA cup, 2 third place finishes? Finishing 1 point behind Utd? I think he has done exceptionally well and i feel you are being exceptionally disrespectful to one of the games great managers.

PHB wrote: »

Rafa has brought in 4 more players than Ferguson into the current team since he took over. They did it for roughly the same transfer budget, with Fergie's being 6 more. Rafa went one route, Fergie went another. Rafa was not limited. In 2005 he bought Bellamy and Kuyt for a total of 15.6 million. He could have kept Ciise and bought Torres for 5 million more. Rafa has not been as limited as people make out. This season he has been given a big budget, but his net spend over the last few years have been on par with United's, it's just he choose to do it differently.

Again, why would Rafa keep Ciise if he doesnt want him as part of his team? Torres wasnt available at this time anyway so your point is mute. Kuyt is better than Ciise, both better for the team and better as a player.

PHB wrote: »

The problem with Rafa was the utter crap he bought instead. Players like Morientes, Gonzalez, Garcia, Bellamy who have all been moved on cost a total of 20 million or thereabouts. That coulda been used on one player like Torres and it would made the squad much better. That's what Fergie has done, and it's something that Rafa has only done sparingly.

Garcia is an excellent player and wins teams matches. We would not have won the CL in 2005 without him. Gonzalez and Morientes were both bought with the intention of being in a title winning team, they just did not work out.

cson wrote: »

Apologies.

All the same the money spent on Diouf and Heskey (In or around £24m for the two iirc ) would have bought a tidy little striker back then.

Yea, Liverpool wasted a lot of money during that period, but again, it was nothing to do with Rafa obviously

PHB

It would have been a stupid gamble for Rafa to take to put all his eggs in one basket.

Without risk there is no reward. Fergie took those risks and it paid off. 12 million for Ronaldo was a risk, but it paid off. 25-39 million for Rooney depending on what you read was a risk, but it certainly paid off. Hell 14 million for Carrick was a huge risk, but it certainly paid off. That's what managers get paid for, taking risks and them paying off. Rafa didn't take many risks, just bought the safe average options. Squad depth was an issue, but in case you've forgotten, for a good half season United's central midfield was Giggs and O'Shea, but it worked out. Fergie took a risk, got through it, and it was worth it.

I meant average results in terms of players. Those players were never good enough to win a league, never consistant enough. They could perform in big games, but in most games, they were crap. Garcia is the prime example of this.

Fergie and Rafa had the same sort of squads to start with, as I've shown, and as you haven't contested. They spent similar amounts, and got very different results.

Mr Alan

PHB wrote: »

Without risk there is no reward. Fergie took those risks and it paid off. 12 million for Ronaldo was a risk, but it paid off. 25-39 million for Rooney depending on what you read was a risk, but it certainly paid off. Hell 14 million for Carrick was a huge risk, but it certainly paid off. That's what managers get paid for, taking risks and them paying off. Rafa didn't take many risks, just bought the safe average options. Squad depth was an issue, but in case you've forgotten, for a good half season United's central midfield was Giggs and O'Shea, but it worked out. Fergie took a risk, got through it, and it was worth it.

I meant average results in terms of players. Those players were never good enough to win a league, never consistant enough. They could perform in big games, but in most games, they were crap. Garcia is the prime example of this.

Fergie and Rafa had the same sort of squads to start with, as I've shown, and as you haven't contested. They spent similar amounts, and got very different results.

Christ this is going round in circles.

Needless to say, i dont believe that when Rafa took over him and Ferguson had the same quality of players at their clubs.

Again, anyone who expected a league win in Rafas first 3 seasons was kidding themselves a little.

He has taken a different route to Ferguson, but a route that i firmly believe will prove to be the right route.

~Rebel~

Gonna come in with one point here on the topic PHB and Mr. Alan are talking about;

Fergie chose to take the risk of buying a world class player over 2 average ones, yes, but he had the financial clout of Man U behind him so if they flopped, it wasn't necessarily the end of the world. We saw they carried on fine after Veron flopped for example. How much they spent isn't the entire story, we all know Manchester United are a very very wealthy club and had far far more resources then Liverpool had.

Rafa, i dont believe was even given that option. To spend everything on just one player rather then 2 or 3 would not have been worth it based on the fact that if that player didn't perform liverpool would have actually been proper fked. The club couldn't even afford to put in the money for Kuyt! That says it all for me, that they actually simply couldn't rustle up the funds from anywhere to stretch for him, and instead had to take a personal loan from the Moores family.

I think the board copped on a little after allowing Ged blow serious money big money signings that flopped likw Heskey and Diouf, and to an extent Cisse (Houlliers going away present). Each of those players cost a fortune and made back shag all. I dont think the board were willing to do that again. Instead they rustled up all the money they could up and asked Rafa to spread it around rather then all in one place. What backs this up further is that the minute Rafa was given some real financial backing, without the future of the club riding on it, he went straight for Torres and Babel. A striker for 20+ million and a youth for 11million simply would not have been options before.

jesus_thats_gre

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Gonna come in with one point here on the topic PHB and Mr. Alan are talking about;

Fergie chose to take the risk of buying a world class player over 2 average ones, yes, but he had the financial clout of Man U behind him so if they flopped, it wasn't necessarily the end of the world. We saw they carried on fine after Veron flopped for example. How much they spent isn't the entire story, we all know Manchester United are a very very wealthy club and had far far more resources then Liverpool had.

Rafa, i dont believe was even given that option. To spend everything on just one player rather then 2 or 3 would not have been worth it based on the fact that if that player didn't perform liverpool would have actually been proper fked. The club couldn't even afford to put in the money for Kuyt! That says it all for me, that they actually simply couldn't rustle up the funds from anywhere to stretch for him, and instead had to take a personal loan from the Moores family.

I think the board copped on a little after allowing Ged blow serious money big money signings that flopped likw Heskey and Diouf, and to an extent Cisse (Houlliers going away present). Each of those players cost a fortune and made back shag all. I dont think the board were willing to do that again. Instead they rustled up all the money they could up and asked Rafa to spread it around rather then all in one place. What backs this up further is that the minute Rafa was given some real financial backing, without the future of the club riding on it, he went straight for Torres and Babel. A striker for 20+ million and a youth for 11million simply would not have been options before.

One of the few decent posts in 5 pages of utter crap.

An Citeog

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Gonna come in with one point here on the topic PHB and Mr. Alan are talking about;

Fergie chose to take the risk of buying a world class player over 2 average ones, yes, but he had the financial clout of Man U behind him so if they flopped, it wasn't necessarily the end of the world. We saw they carried on fine after Veron flopped for example. How much they spent isn't the entire story, we all know Manchester United are a very very wealthy club and had far far more resources then Liverpool had.

Rafa, i dont believe was even given that option. To spend everything on just one player rather then 2 or 3 would not have been worth it based on the fact that if that player didn't perform liverpool would have actually been proper fked. The club couldn't even afford to put in the money for Kuyt! That says it all for me, that they actually simply couldn't rustle up the funds from anywhere to stretch for him, and instead had to take a personal loan from the Moores family.

I think the board copped on a little after allowing Ged blow serious money big money signings that flopped likw Heskey and Diouf, and to an extent Cisse (Houlliers going away present). Each of those players cost a fortune and made back shag all. I dont think the board were willing to do that again. Instead they rustled up all the money they could up and asked Rafa to spread it around rather then all in one place. What backs this up further is that the minute Rafa was given some real financial backing, without the future of the club riding on it, he went straight for Torres and Babel. A striker for 20+ million and a youth for 11million simply would not have been options before.

As a United fan, I have to agree. Liverpool's biggest mistake was their failure to embrace the business of football and as the big money came into football, they were left behind. It's only now you've begun to catch up.

Jazzy

PHB wrote: »

Without risk there is no reward. Fergie took those risks and it paid off. 12 million for Ronaldo was a risk, but it paid off. 25-39 million for Rooney depending on what you read was a risk, but it certainly paid off. Hell 14 million for Carrick was a huge risk, but it certainly paid off. That's what managers get paid for, taking risks and them paying off. Rafa didn't take many risks, just bought the safe average options. Squad depth was an issue, but in case you've forgotten, for a good half season United's central midfield was Giggs and O'Shea, but it worked out. Fergie took a risk, got through it, and it was worth it.

thats a very good point in regards to pointing out the holes in benitez's management i think. he never took risks in buying 1 or 2 top quality players untill this summer (Torres and maybe babel). He built a squad alright but it is more a squad guaranteed champions league football and maybe a cup or 2 but not a PL winning side like Chelski and Man Utd.
and look what we won with him.... FA cup and the CL and we get CL footy every season.

I still have hope for the PL this season, but with our recent form and arsenal and man utd beating the **** out of teams (man utd won all their crap performance matches, we didnt), I think its uphill from here on out.

and there is still chelski to compete with.
Lets hope Torres and co. come through and that G-Unit gets a kick up the backside so we can see him on fire again

d22ontour

I think referring to Gerrard as G-Unit should be a bannable offence.

Jazzy

G-G-G-G-G-UNIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KdjaCL

When did pennant break his leg

Out for 10 weeks.


kdjac