Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

mike65

He limped off during the CL game. I reckoned he was putting that on not to look bad after a poor performance.

from lfc.tv

Liverpool have confirmed Jermaine Pennant is to undergo surgery this weekend on a stress fracture of his right tibia.
Club spokesman Ian Cotton said: "For the last eight weeks Jermaine has undergone intensive treatment at Melwood between matches for the injury.

"But following an acute exacerbation of the problem during the game against Besiktas it has now been decided he requires surgery.

"We anticipate Jermaine will be out for approximately 10 weeks."

Alonso/Masch in the middle, Gerrard right then.


Mike.

PHB

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Rafa, i dont believe was even given that option. To spend everything on just one player rather then 2 or 3 would not have been worth it based on the fact that if that player didn't perform liverpool would have actually been proper fked. The club couldn't even afford to put in the money for Kuyt! That says it all for me, that they actually simply couldn't rustle up the funds from anywhere to stretch for him, and instead had to take a personal loan from the Moores family.

I think the board copped on a little after allowing Ged blow serious money big money signings that flopped likw Heskey and Diouf, and to an extent Cisse (Houlliers going away present). Each of those players cost a fortune and made back shag all. I dont think the board were willing to do that again. Instead they rustled up all the money they could up and asked Rafa to spread it around rather then all in one place. What backs this up further is that the minute Rafa was given some real financial backing, without the future of the club riding on it, he went straight for Torres and Babel. A striker for 20+ million and a youth for 11million simply would not have been options before.

If that was true, fair enough, Rafa would have been restricted by bad planning and there was nothing he could do about it. But why the board would think this is kinda beyond me.
The prices they played for Hesky, Diouf and Cisse, 11 14 and 11. Instantly when Rafa joined, he bought Alonso for 10.5. I can't see why they would put this restriction on him.

My suspicion is that Rafa thought that the players he were buying were gona be good enough, thought he was getting a good deal, and hence more willing to spread it out.
Take for example, the purchases of Morientes and Gonzalez. He thought those players were gona do it, hell I thought those players were gona do it and I think most on the board did. Or the following year, the purchase of Bellamy. Bellamy was bought relatively early in the transfer window. He wasn't bought due to financial constraints, Rafa thought he'd be good enough, and he was a steal at 6 million [still think he was a steal at 6 million, hence the 1.5 million profit Liverpool made on him] That's certainly the case for Gonzalez where he stated multiple times he thought this player was gona do very very well.

Personally I think Rafa has realised his mistake, rather than that the board suddenly allowed him. The board allowed him to spend a significant amount of money, I can't see why they would specify where he could spend it. It's not like the Liverpool board to get particuarly involved in how managers do their business.

You might say that the board restricted him, I'd argue he took the wrong course and was allowed to do it. Ultimately neither of us will know.

shatners basoon

Jazzy wrote: »

G-G-G-G-G-UNIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

niiiiiiiiice

HashSlinging

some great stats all the same.

Mental Mickey

Another bloody injury.:rolleyes:

GREAT!!! Wasn't Gerrard's "performance" the other night absolutely rubbish!!??? He did nothing apart from score the goal......?


I think Benitez would get the best out of him by using him as a sub.....? I don't rate him high at all.......??? He's a typical English hard man!!!! Nothing else.

Also, if we don't beat Arsenal on Sunday, Mr Benitez might find himself out of a job.............???

machiavellianme

I wouldnt care if Stevie had another Rubbish performance on Sunday either "apart from score a goal".
We needed goals. He got us one but it wasnt enough. He is never going to be a player like Fabergas where he will be involved in most if not every movement. If he only added ten touches in a game but we got a goal from a few of them and get the result, isnt that what counts?

Mental Mickey

machiavellianme wrote: »

I wouldnt care if Stevie had another Rubbish performance on Sunday either "apart from score a goal".
We needed goals. He got us one but it wasnt enough. He is never going to be a player like Fabergas where he will be involved in most if not every movement. If he only added ten touches in a game but we got a goal from a few of them and get the result, isnt that what counts?

He's such a frustrating player, though......?? He comes up with goals like that, and is liable to have really poor performances(a la the last Merseyside derby, where he was awful).

I think Benitez summed it up perfectly when he explained that "we needed something more than heart against Everton". That, for me, says an awful lot about what Rafa REALLY thinks about Stevie G.

machiavellianme

I find Kuyt and Voronin more frustrating. They seem to run and run and come back deep when we need them, but when it comes to delivering an end product its the same week in week out. Maybe 10% efficiency at best. Voronin seems to have some sort of love affair with the side netting on the left of the goal (although his shots seem to be actually straying further and further from goal every game) and Kuyt loves to clap himself after tapping over the bar. Is it just me or do the pair seem to have the weakest shots in the team as they seem to always trickle along the ground. We really need a proper striker up front with Torres.
I wonder if Newcastle would swap Martins for either of them as he seems wasted there and we need someone with his strengths.

Cyrus

we had someone with martins strengths

cisse

he was shiiiiiiiiite:D

Mental Mickey

Cyrus wrote: »

we had someone with martins strengths

cisse

he was shiiiiiiiiite:D

LOL. Along with countless other signings by him. Benitez seems to be going down the same route with some of his signings.....? Mauricio Pellegrino anyone........?

:eek:

machiavellianme

Thats not strictly true.

Martins strength is his ability to finish consistently. How many of our strikers can boast that? Torres and maybe Crouch on a good spell.

Tusky

PHB wrote: »

Like if all these players are so good, why do they keep losing?

Liverpool have lost twice this season. Man Utd have lost once or twice as well havent they ? Anyway, the whole arguement about who has the better team is silly.

Mental Mickey

Tusky wrote: »

Liverpool have lost twice this season. Man Utd have lost once or twice as well havent they ? Anyway, the whole arguement about who has the better team is silly.

They may have only lost twice this season, but AFAIK, they have drawn the same amount of games that they have won!!!??

If I remember correctly, we had a lead in most of those games, but threw it away. We are too bloody inconsistent because Rafa tinkers with the team waaaaaaaay too much. He should have a solid base of about 7-8 players, and play around with 3-4 positions. IMO, he makes way too many changes between games......?

:rolleyes:

Hurry back Danny Agger!!!!!

jesus_thats_gre

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Mauricio Pellegrino anyone........?

He was brought in for a 6 month period with the soul purpose of helping the Liverpool defenders to get to grips with what Rafa expected of them. Sorta worked out pretty well considering that it is one area where we can't really be criticised on while out on the pitch.

mike65

He also played to give Sami Hyypia recovery time between CL games.

Mike.

Tusky

Mental Mickey wrote: »

They may have only lost twice this season, but AFAIK, they have drawn the same amount of games that they have won!!!??

If I remember correctly, we had a lead in most of those games, but threw it away. We are too bloody inconsistent because Rafa tinkers with the team waaaaaaaay too much. He should have a solid base of about 7-8 players, and play around with 3-4 positions. IMO, he makes way too many changes between games......?

:rolleyes:

Hurry back Danny Agger!!!!!

He said we keep losing and I corrected him. What does your post have to do with mine ?

You obviously know what youre talking about though. You should manage the team. What does Rafa know ? Hes only won the champions league, fa cup, spanish league & came 3rd in the premier league last two seasons in a row. There were two changes for the Besiktas game, hardly massive rotation. I'm sick of people talking about rotation. Does my head in.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Tusky wrote: »

I'm sick of people talking about rotation. Does my head in.

Me too, particularly considering that the team is not rotated in any significant way more or less than the top 4 teams. This has been shown to be the case, Paul Tomkins wrote a piece on it a while ago and it shows the number of unforced changes in the game, am sure that somebody could stick up a link to it if they remember where it is.

mike65

He has an article on RAWK which, as ever has set cat among pidgeons.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=197257.0

Mike.

Chardee MacDennis

great article, i agree completely....

kryogen

Cyrus wrote: »

why if uniteds squad is better did liverpool win the champions league once and get to the final in 3 years when united havent got to the final since 99?

a lot of it is to do with mentality and belief, united have it based on recent success in the league, we dont

neville better than finnan PUH LEASE[/QUOTE]

i have to quote and intervene here,this is a joke surely? yes finnan is a very good right back, but gary neville is without a doubt the most consistently great full back to play for either liverpool or united since denis irwin! he is and has been the best right back in england for a long time now. i would say this without bias. unfortunatly you wont accept that its unbiased, but meh, i wont lose sleep over it. for the record, i can see ye getting something from arsenal for some reason, even a draw would be a good result and thats the way i can see it going, i think liverpool will go out not to lose, as they do quite often against the better teams, and try sneak a goal, it may even work

~Rebel~

PHB wrote:

If that was true, fair enough, Rafa would have been restricted by bad planning and there was nothing he could do about it. But why the board would think this is kinda beyond me.
The prices they played for Hesky, Diouf and Cisse, 11 14 and 11. Instantly when Rafa joined, he bought Alonso for 10.5. I can't see why they would put this restriction on him.

My suspicion is that Rafa thought that the players he were buying were gona be good enough, thought he was getting a good deal, and hence more willing to spread it out.
Take for example, the purchases of Morientes and Gonzalez. He thought those players were gona do it, hell I thought those players were gona do it and I think most on the board did. Or the following year, the purchase of Bellamy. Bellamy was bought relatively early in the transfer window. He wasn't bought due to financial constraints, Rafa thought he'd be good enough, and he was a steal at 6 million [still think he was a steal at 6 million, hence the 1.5 million profit Liverpool made on him] That's certainly the case for Gonzalez where he stated multiple times he thought this player was gona do very very well.

Personally I think Rafa has realised his mistake, rather than that the board suddenly allowed him. The board allowed him to spend a significant amount of money, I can't see why they would specify where he could spend it. It's not like the Liverpool board to get particuarly involved in how managers do their business.

You might say that the board restricted him, I'd argue he took the wrong course and was allowed to do it. Ultimately neither of us will know.

What you're saying is entirely possible, that Rafa suddenly decided that spreading the money around was not the option to go for.

However, I still think, and the evidence does still back me up, that he wold have bought more expensive players had he been given backing to spend all in one place rather then spreading over a number of players. It would be very easy to consider Alonso to be the exception that proves the rule as well. Given the timing of the signing it would be very easy to believe that he said fine, ill take the job, but i want this guy who is an absolute steal at this price.

Even if you think about the players we were linked with, Rafa got potential talent right on a number of occasions, for example we were closely linked with Villa while he was still at Zaragoza, but the board wouldn't stump up the 15million to get him. Joaquin was another we were very closely linked with untill his price got to the 16 million mark which was too much for liverpool to pay out. Denilson is another player who he was not given the 7million backing to get, instead losing out to Arsenal. Another was Sergio Aguero who we seemed to all but have in the bag until his price rose to 15million and we backed off.

I think all these potential serious moves for players which got canceled on Rafa, combined with the fact that he suddenly broke the 11million line twice in 2 weeks (The same summer we finally recieved real financial backing, following the summer we had to take a loan off the owners family) is too much of a coincidence to cover over with "i think he just didn't want to buy proven quality players".

HashSlinging

kryogen wrote: »

i have to quote and intervene here,this is a joke surely? yes finnan is a very good right back, but gary neville is without a doubt the most consistently great full back to play for either liverpool or united since denis irwin! he is and has been the best right back in england for a long time now. i would say this without bias. unfortunatly you wont accept that its unbiased, but meh, i wont lose sleep over it. for the record, i can see ye getting something from arsenal for some reason, even a draw would be a good result and thats the way i can see it going, i think liverpool will go out not to lose, as they do quite often against the better teams, and try sneak a goal, it may even work

Gary Neville is the biggest waste of space ever to walk on grass, your correct to say that hes the best man utd full back since denis irwin. Rob Jones was a much better player than Neville though, only for frequent injury troubles would have been englands no 1 choice in that position, so Neville has been lucky.

Oh and we beat Arsenal last season, so your "getting something" comment is unjustified as we will be going into this game as favourites, as we've beaten them in the league at home for the last couple of seasons. You should do some homework before posting in this thread.

PHB

Possibly, but you also have to remember that for a good while Rafa was being incredibly stubborn in relation to transfer prices, and insisted he wouldn't pay over the odds.
Furthermore, I it's more of the case of Rafa wanted to add to his squad a striker and a winger for example. He told the board he wanted Villa and Joaquin. They told him no. Instead of trying to get Joaquin and keep Cisse, he said, ok, well I need a striker and a winger, so I'll get Morientes and Gonzalez or something. There was clearly an impetus from Rafa to replace pretty much every average player that Houllier had bought.

Oh and we beat Arsenal last season, so your "getting something" comment is unjustified as we will be going into this game as favourites, as we've beaten them in the league at home for the last couple of seasons.

You will? According to who? If you've got a bookie who is making you favorites, please post it up, I want to get some good odds on Arsenal.

HashSlinging

law of averages applies, dont forget we knocked 4 in against them last year in the league and peter crouch scored a hat trick.

So I'd say liverpool are favourites, wouldnt take a genius to work it out.

whatawaster

PHB wrote: »

You will? According to who? If you've got a bookie who is making you favorites, please post it up, I want to get some good odds on Arsenal.

Try PaddyPower then

Chardee MacDennis

PHB wrote: »

Possibly, but you also have to remember that for a good while Rafa was being incredibly stubborn in relation to transfer prices, and insisted he wouldn't pay over the odds.

You will? According to who? If you've got a bookie who is making you favorites, please post it up, I want to get some good odds on Arsenal.

From Paddypower.ie: Liverpool 7-5, Arsenal 15-8, Draw 21-10

Also did you ever think Rafa wasnt allowed by the board to say that he wasnt allowed spend that kinda money, so he had to say that we didnt want to pay over the odds? I mean as a supporter that would have pissed me off if I heard we have all these potentially great players lined up a la denilson, aguero, vidic but the board wont sanction the fees, but it didnt seem so bad when Rafa was saying all these clubs were trying to screw us because they think we have lots of money, and he refused to be held to ransom.

Paul Tergat

HashSlinging wrote: »

Gary Neville is the biggest waste of space ever to walk on grass, your correct to say that hes the best man utd full back since denis irwin. Rob Jones was a much better player than Neville though, only for frequent injury troubles would have been englands no 1 choice in that position, so Neville has been lucky.

he's the best RB in the league. he can defend properly and can link with the attack well. his crossing is underrated too.....Finnan is not a patch on Neville!


and LOL at Rob Jones

jesus_thats_gre

PHB wrote: »

Possibly, but you also have to remember that for a good while Rafa was being incredibly stubborn in relation to transfer prices, and insisted he wouldn't pay over the odds.

But sure that could be for any number of reasons. He could have been very aware of the fact that he had **** all money to spend, had a clear idea of what positions needed to be filled and knews how much he could spend filling each of those positions - not how much he wanted to spend. It could also have been the board putting pressure on him not to blow millions on players in the fashion as GH did..

This whole argument has become a farce to be honest, it is going around in circles. I quite often agree with what you are saying but you seem to be over forcing your point regardless of the many valid counter arguments.

machiavellianme

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

It could also have been the board putting pressure on him not to blow millions of players

Theres something "quare" with that statement

Tusky

I was just looking through the group stages from last years champions league.

Inter Milan W3 D1 L2 - 10 points
PSV W3 D1 L2 - 10 points
Roma W3 D1 L2 - 10 points
Celtic W3 L3 - 9 points
Porto W3 D2 L1 - 10 points
Lille W2 D3 L1 - 9 points

All these teams qualified. We can still get 10 points, all is not lost!

jesus_thats_gre

machiavellianme wrote: »

Theres something "quare" with that statement

Fixed

Mental Mickey

I (sadly) can see Rafa getting the boot at the end of next season, if we get knocked out of this seasons Euros(which is looking likely), and also if we don't do well in the Premiership next season also(we ain't gonna win it this year).


He's beginning to sound like a certain Monsieur Gerard Houllier with some of his, ahem, excuses lately.

Frankly, the players, and especially Stevie Gerrard have let him down badly. Gerrard cannot keep chucking out average performances(like the ones against E*****n and Besiktas). Yes, I know he scored a great goal against Besiktas, but frankly, did f**k all else for the rest of the game!!??

I hope Xabi Alonso n Daniel Agger come back quickly. We are missing Alonso in the centre of midfield badly.

Tusky

Mental Mickey wrote: »

I (sadly) can see Rafa getting the boot at the end of next season, if we get knocked out of this seasons Euros(which is looking likely), and also if we don't do well in the Premiership next season also(we ain't gonna win it this year).


He's beginning to sound like a certain Monsieur Gerard Houllier with some of his, ahem, excuses lately.

Frankly, the players, and especially Stevie Gerrard have let him down badly. Gerrard cannot keep chucking out average performances(like the ones against E*****n and Besiktas). Yes, I know he scored a great goal against Besiktas, but frankly, did f**k all else for the rest of the game!!??

I hope Xabi Alonso n Daniel Agger come back quickly. We are missing Alonso in the centre of midfield badly.

We have lost 2 games all season. If we win tomorrow we can move up to third place in the premiership. 4 points off utd with a game in hand. We arent even into November yet.

We can still qualify for the the knockout phase of the champions league. We are competing in the Fa & League cup. /sigh

Bounty Hunter

surprised nobody on here has mentioned the likelihood of winning the Uefa cup if you dont make it in the Champions league

Mental Mickey

Tusky wrote: »

We have lost 2 games all season. If we win tomorrow we can move up to third place in the premiership. 4 points off utd with a game in hand. We arent even into November yet.

We can still qualify for the the knockout phase of the champions league. We are competing in the Fa & League cup. /sigh

All I'm saying is, that if Rafa fails to win the Premiership in the next few seasons, with the amount of money he has spent, he will be judged a failure.

The Premiership is the one trophy that Liverpool fans want the team to win the most.

jesus_thats_gre

Mental Mickey wrote: »

All I'm saying is, that if Rafa fails to win the Premiership in the next few seasons, with the amount of money he has spent, he will be judged a failure.

The Premiership is the one trophy that Liverpool fans want the team to win the most.

Really putting your neck out on the line with that one aren't you....

Mental Mickey

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Really putting your neck out on the line with that one aren't you....

Yep.

Chardee MacDennis

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

surprised nobody on here has mentioned the likelihood of winning the Uefa cup if you dont make it in the Champions league

well if we dont qualify from the group then i hope we finish last i dont want to waste any of our squad on that trampy competition...

RE*AC*TOR

Call_me_al wrote: »

well if we dont qualify from the group then i hope we finish last i dont want to waste any of our squad on that trampy competition...

It wasn't trampy when Houllier won it. It CAN be a very difficult competition to win, as often there are teams on the up in it. Christ, we beat Barca en route to winning it under Houllier. Sure its not the Champions League, its far less prestiguous, but it would still be much more of a success than either of the domestic cups.

machiavellianme

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

surprised nobody on here has mentioned the likelihood of winning the Uefa cup if you dont make it in the Champions league

If we dont make it in the Champions League, the UEFA cup wont be a consolation. Its the Premiership or the CL. Or both preferably. But FA and UEFA Cups should not be considered a priority or a substitute for winning the coveted prizes. I'd nearly rather we didnt get into the UEFA cup if we dont qualify to the next round as it'll just be another distraction and an excuse for Rafa to tinker further with formations.

Chardee MacDennis

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

It wasn't trampy when Houllier won it. It CAN be a very difficult competition to win, as often there are teams on the up in it. Christ, we beat Barca en route to winning it under Houllier. Sure its not the Champions League, its far less prestiguous, but it would still be much more of a success than either of the domestic cups.

i would much prefer the FA cup than the UEFA cup. it wasn't as trampy when we wont it last but this new format is ridiculous, and tbh it's not worth injuring players for a second rate tournament. The only two competitions we should be taking seriously are the prem and the cl.

and yes we did beat some quality teams in the UEFA cup, but that doesnt make it with winning this time.

jesus_thats_gre

Advancing to the Quarters of the CL is something that the club should be doing for financial reasons and anything further than that is about pretige. If we are ****ed out of the CL, the club should be putting in a very good showing in the UEFA cup, if not winning it, if only for financial reasons. Winning the UEFA cup generates as much, if not more, income as getting to the Quarters of the CL.

Comments that it is a trampy cup etc are a joke. The PL and then the CL should be our priority but other comps should not be dismissed or disrespected.

kryogen

its hilarious for me to see some of my liverpool fan friends in the real world sharing some of your views on the uefa cup, this was a great achievement and far from a trampy trophy when you won ita few seasons back but now it is not even as highly rated as the FA cup by some! lol tbh

Mental Mickey

Call_me_al wrote: »

well if we dont qualify from the group then i hope we finish last i dont want to waste any of our squad on that trampy competition...

LOL:D "Trampy" competition. Brilliant. I think our main problem(s) this season are that we have had important players missing at important times, and also that, in my opinion, Rafa has been tinkering with the team waaaaaaaaaay too much.

He should have a basis of 7-8 players, and tinker with 3-4 positions, such as the wingers & strikers.

Chardee MacDennis

i'm sorry but the only reason is to do well in it is financial, which is a good enough reason i suppose, but i dont believe there is any prestige in winning the competition, i mean boro made it to the final a couple of seasons ago and CSKA won it 3 years ago, not exactly the quality of liverpool. Also we were a different team under Houllier and I think our expectations should be higher under Rafa.

Imagine if Torres broke his leg in the kockout stages, would it be worth it then?

on the plus side making it to the final wouldn't be bad as it isnt half way across the world this year like the CL has been

Mental Mickey wrote: »

in my opinion, Rafa has been tinkering with the team waaaaaaaaaay too much.

He should have a basis of 7-8 players, and tinker with 3-4 positions, such as the wingers & strikers.

Read Paul Tomkins' article above.

_blank_

Call_me_al wrote: »

that trampy competition...

Fickle, fickle.

It wasn't trampy when Liverpoll won it as part of their treble, was it?

:rolleyes:

Chardee MacDennis

DesF wrote: »

Fickle, fickle.

It wasn't trampy when Liverpoll won it as part of their treble, was it?

:rolleyes:

em i have dealt with that point already....
:rolleyes:

EDIT: i love how non-liverpool fans refer to it as the 'plastic treble' when liverpool fans talk about it as an achievement but when a liverpool fan talks down about the competition it suddenly becomes sacrilege ...

mike65

Back in 2000/2001 it was still a proper knock-out competition. Which included ties against Porto, Roma and Barca. Now its pretty rubbish and should only be considered worth winning if rafa used his B team trying. As mentioned, Torres getting kyboshed in a UEFA tie and being out for month a or two next spring woud be a disaster.

Mike.

el rabitos

Mental Mickey wrote: »

He should have a basis of 7-8 players, and tinker with 3-4 positions, such as the wingers & strikers.

well if andy gray says so...

no doubt he's made a couple of mistakes this season, notably not playing torres against birmingham....but, the players that are "rotated" are players that are not good enough to hold down regular spots in the team, they are players good against certain teams, inaffective against others and its rafa who knows who fits best against various opposition. thats his job.

arbeloa is maybe a contradiction to that, but his consistant involvement is more due to his versatility and riises patchy form.

if rafa was rotating players like reina, carra, agger, finnan, alonso, gerrard, torres (appart from birmingham) on a consistant basis then ok he's a useless yoyo manager that doesnt get english football. but the truth is, he does NOT rotate these players unless forced to.

if people want to force benitez out then by all means keep on listening to sky sports and mark lawrenson and the rest, its way easier to wait for half or full time to know what u just saw on the pitch than actually watch yourself and use your brain.

just dont start moaning when rafa is gone, but you can be guaranteed if/when he does leave, he'll leave a team and a club in far better condition than his past several predecesors left it after their time was up.

machiavellianme

Might be a nice outing for the reserves +Kuyt, Crouch and Voronin but thats about it. Last striker standing gets to partner Torres up front for PL matches