Liverpool Rumours And General Discussion 2007/2008

Guy:Incognito

Cyrus wrote: »

also has everyone forgotten rafas valencia team, he is not an inherently defensive coach, i assume he feels he hasnt got the attacking personnel at the moment to play a more expansive game (and compared to man u, arsenal and chelski we dont)

? It's been 4 years now, it's his own team, if he doesnt feel he has the right players it's down to him.

kryogen

i would like to pose a non troll question to you, are some of you guys actually sharks in disguise? i mean now SOME members of the forum are saying that Kuyt is crap, not good enough, wouldnt make the bench for blackburn?????? come on now, was he not a leading scorer for you last season? was he not heralded by the majority of liverpool fans as a player who gives his all for the team and was a great buy?

jesus if its not benitez its kuyt, crouch, kewell, hypia, gerrard, sissoko, alonso, riise (who was a favorite i think until, well this season as far as i can tell) reina gets it too, do you actually think any of your own players are decent?

dont want a lot of replies about me being a troll, just quote whichever guy says it first and put a full stop or something please. oh or maybe think about it for a while and then reply?

Tusky

Hate to constantly be the voice of reason but we are still well placed.

1 Arsenal 11 15 27
2 Man Utd 12 15 27
3 Chelsea 12 10 24
4 Portsmouth 12 10 22
5 Blackburn 11 6 22
6 Man City 11 2 22
7 Liverpool 11 11 21

Win the game in hand and we are in 3rd place. Lets not forget, Blackburn away is a very tough fixture, they held Arsenal & Chelsea as well this season. We have just come through a tough few fixtures playing Everton, Spurs, Arsenal & Blackburn and we haven't lost. We have an easy enough set of fixtures now and if we can put a run together the title challenge is alive and well.

Fulham H
Newcastle A
Bolton H
Reading A
Man Utd H
Portsmouth H
Derby A
Man City A
Wigan A
Middlesbrough A
Aston Villa H
West Ham A
Sunderland H

Lots of lots of potential to pick up points over these 13 games. Agger, Alonso & Torres will have a big impact on the team also.

Melion

Just one thing. If we win the game in hand and Blackburn and Citeh win theirs aswell it still leaves us in 7th place.

Tusky

PHB wrote: »

This is Liverpools run so far,
W-D-W-W-D-D-W-D-W-D-D

The top 3 is starting to take shape, the question is, can Liverpool keep up? Arsenal, United and Chelsea are all starting to get a run going. Liverpool have regressed massively from the start of the season, and I'm starting to think the start was the odd patch, and this is gona be the norm.

Youre talking out of your arse. Utd are 6 points ahead and we have a game in hand. You are potentially only 3 points ahead and there is 3/4 of the season to go.

Melion wrote: »

Just one thing. If we win the game in hand and Blackburn and Citeh win theirs aswell it still leaves us in 7th place.

No it doesnt. We would be 5th.

Guy:Incognito

If Arsenal win same game in hand we are still 6 points behind too.

Tusky wrote: »

Youre talking out of your arse. Utd are 6 points ahead and we have a game in hand. You are potentially only 3 points ahead and there is 3/4 of the season to go.



.

Until we actually win the thing can we stop counting the poin ts a if we have them. We'll most likely draw it anyway.

kryogen

not completely talking out his arse, united started the season badly, liverpool started the season great, but who is in the ascendancy now and who is slipping?

mike65

kryogen, we all have our own likes/dislikes, I rate Harry others don't I don't rate Riise, others do. Kuyt is a grafter, today he was put in a nearly impossible position as he clearly cannot lead the line and hold up the ball (not that rafas tactics helped him here either), its not his fault. While some players frustrate more than others, its the whole system that doing an increasing number of fans heads in.

Almost regardless of which 11 he starts with the approach is pretty much the same - cautious, defensive and dry as dust.

There is a good team in that squad, do we have manager to find it?

Mike.

PHB

7 games is not a patch, it's a general trend. United had a bad patch, 2 draws and a loss, then had 7 wins. Chelsea had a bad patch, 2 losses and 2 draws, now 4 wins and looking stronger every game. Arsenal have yet to have a bad patch. Liverpool had a good patch, and now have regressed to their usual self. They will have another good spell, I've no doubt about it, but can they change their normal performaces? Don't forget that you've been lucky to get some of those draws aswell. When you take into account the last few CL performances, Liverpools recent form has been nothing short of terrible.
Maybe you're only 3 effective points behind United, 6 behind Arsenal, equal with Chelsea, but about a month ago, you were ahead of those two teams. You've only gotten worse since then.

A draw is not a good result. Last seven games have been 5 draws and 2 wins. If the last seven games had been 4 wins and 3 losses, how happy would you be? I doubt you'd be this happy, despite the fact you'd have an extra point. Drawing and winning wins you cups, not leagues.

Going on a run is great and all, but it only matters when you are under pressure. They can go on all the runs they like in Feburary when the league is out of sight, they have to do it now under pressure to perform and they aren't and haven't ever.

Here's the question, the real crux of it, what's gona change? What's gona happen? Injuries boo hoo, everyone's got them, that's not why you're losing, it's not why you drew with Birmingham.
Is Rafa gona change it? Even lots of Liverpool fans are now beginning to question it.
Torres and Alonso are out, Gerrard can't win every game on his own (although he comes damm close sometimes).

kryogen

i agree with you mike, benitez imo sets his teams out to not be beaten first, then try to nick the game, especially in the big games, it isnt as obvious against the weaker teams, kewell being back is great for you, if you can keep him fit! i dont rate crouch, yes he causes defenders problems, but they tend to get alot of free's off him these days anyway. id personally have Torres up top, Gerrard in behind with Kewell on his left and somebody else on his right, alonso and masch in the middle and a defence of finnan, agger, carragher and arbeloa? ill put more effort into my team draft later

jesus_thats_gre

Kuyt was a complete shambles. As was Hypia..

What is with the team just piling on the pressure in the last 10 minutes of games? Why cant they play something like that for the majority of the match.

One thing is for sure, Crouch should be starting.

machiavellianme

One more week and if nothing changes I'll be changing from "Riise, Kuyt, Hyppia and Pennant out" to "Rafa out and take Riise, Kuyt, Hyppia and Pennant along with you".
To everyone who keeps going on about team building or that it took Sir Alex 7 years to win and Rafa's only had 4, are you prepared to wait another 3 years? I'm sick of waiting. Its been far too long. Jeebus, I'd nearly take Maureen as manager if it meant getting results week in week out. Theres nothing fun in speculating what we might do if we won x games or if we hadnt lost/drawn there etc. Its time we moved away from that and enjoyed a few wins on the trot or at least a team playing pleasing to watch football.

Guy:Incognito

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

One thing is for sure, Crouch should be starting.

Personally I dont think it was Crouch exactly that made the difference as much as just a 2nd striker. I genuinly belive any 2nd striker would have made a big difference.

Peyton Manning

The fact is that Liverpool have dropped 12 points in their first 11 games and when you have won, its never been too convincing (excluding maybe Derby result). Unless they go on an unbeaten run ala Arsenal now, they will not win the league. The form has been too inconsistent over recent years to suggest that they can do this. To be honest, I dont think you'll make the top 3 this year.

Cyrus

wrong, if you take liverpools first 7-10 games out of the last two seasons there form has been championship form, its is bad starts that cripple liverpool.

i dont know what we can do about it, not replacing hypia is now looking like a massive error, when he is playing the whole team is more defensive as cover is needed, whereas agger is a ball playing centre half who pushes the team forward, big change in the dynamic. team id like to see:

Reina
Arbeloa Carra Agger Finnan
Babel Alonso Mascherano Gerrard
Kuyt Torres

PHB

Cyrus wrote: »

wrong, if you take liverpools first 7-10 games out of the last two seasons there form has been championship form, its is bad starts that cripple liverpool.

It's easy to go on a championship winning run when you're no longer in the race. There's no pressure, no real tension. They have to do it when it matters. Today would have been a big big three points, woulda see them gain ground on United or Arsenal. They knew this and they fluffed it.

Guy:Incognito

Cyrus, I'm assuming you have your left and right mixed up, yeah?

mike65

Nope, Reina is our sole striker!

Mike.

Guy:Incognito

mike65 wrote: »

Nope, Reina is our sole striker!

Mike.

I like it, other teams definately wont be expecting that. He looked alright when he played in the middle in the pre-season game last season.

Cyrus

Stekelly wrote: »

Cyrus, I'm assuming you have your left and right mixed up, yeah?

doh! long day

Guy:Incognito

It's all good. Just thought you might have been Brian Kerr in disguise.

Jesus Wept

The panel on The Premiership (RTE 2) reverted to their usual rotation policy bashing as the route of Liverpool's woe.

:rolleyes:

copacetic

The-Rigger wrote: »

The panel on The Premiership (RTE 2) reverted to their usual rotation policy bashing as the route of Liverpool's woe.

:rolleyes:

not far wrong imo, we are combining rotation of players with apparently random rotation of formations as well. It seems to take the players most of each game to get used to the formation and who they are playing with.

mike65

For those of us who did not see the game live its on Setanta Ireland at 10 pm where its billed as a thriller on the EPG. *cough*

Mike.

Ardent

That wasn't a title challenging team out there today. We've been playing poorly for so long, I'd rather watch paint dry than sit through a Liverpool game right now. The manager surely has to shoulder the blame. Poor tactics, excessive rotation and poor signings are wrecking the confidence of the team and our season is disintegrating slowly but surely.

Dirk Kuyt, it was obvious to most he wasn't good enough after just 6 months but surely now no-one can defend the indefensible?! £11 million for Babel?? We got mugged there.

It seems Rafa is struggling with the weight of expectation this season. Will he ever win us the league? He deserves another season after this one but he needs to buck up his ideas sharpish.

mike65

Watching the game now, Finnan has had about 10 oppotunities to run with the ball into the other half and passed it sideways or back instead, when he did move on he nearly created something. Kinda sums up whats wrong in the teams head.

Mike.

Guy:Incognito

mike65 wrote: »

Watching the game now, Finnan has had about 10 oppotunities to run with the ball into the other half and passed it sideways or back instead, when he did move on he nearly created something. Kinda sums up whats wrong in the teams head.

Miek.

IS it him though, or is he being told "safety, safety" all the time?

Cyrus

Ardent wrote: »

That wasn't a title challenging team out there today. We've been playing poorly for so long, I'd rather watch paint dry than sit through a Liverpool game right now. The manager surely has to shoulder the blame. Poor tactics, excessive rotation and poor signings are wrecking the confidence of the team and our season is disintegrating slowly but surely.

Dirk Kuyt, it was obvious to most he wasn't good enough after just 6 months but surely now no-one can defend the indefensible?! £11 million for Babel?? We got mugged there.

It seems Rafa is struggling with the weight of expectation this season. Will he ever win us the league? He deserves another season after this one but he needs to buck up his ideas sharpish.

kuyt was worth what we paid for him given his record in holland, if he could be got to stay up front and worry about scoring instead of everything else hes a decent striker (not world class but a decent 15 goal a season man)

babel has bags of potential, rafa paid 11m for him in much the same way fergie paid similar amounts for ronalda, nani and anderson, need to wait and see on babel i think

mike65

Stekelly,
I'm certain its Rafa, Finnan is emblematic of his tactics.

Mike.

GBX

Upon watching them lately, ive notice Carra , Risse and Hyppia have more of a tendency to lump it forward. When Mascarano drops back, finnan is not afraid to pass it to him. I wish both him and Risse would push forward more.
Was glad to see HarryK make an appearance. Brought great width to the left side. Good to see him back. Hopefully he grabs his chance and proves his worth.

KdjaCL

GBX wrote: »

Upon watching them lately, ive notice Carra , Risse and Hyppia have more of a tendency to lump it forward. When Mascarano drops back, finnan is not afraid to pass it to him. I wish both him and Risse would push forward more.

Obviously have only seen 2 liverpool games ever then?


kdjac

GBX

Yeah sure. 2 games. :rolleyes:

Even Arbeloa is confident and not afraid to push forward. Hobbs should be given a run in the CL this week. Hyppia is making too many errors. His pace is gone and his touch is not as good .. granted he is past his best, but surely he can do better.

Guy:Incognito

GBX wrote: »

Upon watching them lately, ive notice Carra , Risse and Hyppia have more of a tendency to lump it forward. .

Thats the thing. If that happens for one or two matches then stops, you'd say that was the players and the manager pulled them up and told them to stop being hoofers and play football, but its goign on a long time so it has to be the way Rafa wants them to play. If it's not and they are ignoring him then its worrying, but I dont know which is more worrying (the players disobeying the manager or the manager wanting them to hoof it all the time)

Sizzler

Stekelly wrote: »

Jesuis Sizzler, you really know how to grab something you dont know much about and escalate the crap out of it. Kuyt is a very good player and very important to the Liverpool team and how it works. Yes, he's never going to be a 20goal a season man, but thats not why he's in the team.

So is Kevin Davies but would you want him in your team leading the line :rolleyes:

Cyrus

so is wayne rooney

Chardee MacDennis

personally i dont think we can afford to play two defensive midfielders anymore. hopefully when alonso is fit we will see him and gerrard in the centre.

the reverse of my point though is that valencia always had 2 def mids and play great attacking football, so i'm not sure what's going on.

oh an kuyt can't kick snow off a rope. crouch needs to start the next game.

machiavellianme

The BBCs rumours today say Rafa is getting 25 million in January to fix the team. That should get us maybe 2 great players? If he buys 4 or 5 average players again I'll have lost all interest in Rafa and his ways. Unless of course he sells our excess to make way. We need to be buying top class this time. We must have enough "cover" types by now.

PHB

The rumours also mentioned he was gona offload people to make the money, including Riise Crouch and Sissoko.

I think if you sold those you'd get maybe 15 million for all of them, that'd give him a lot of money to play around with. That said, why the owners would invest 25 million I don't understand, but owners are funny things

With that sort of cash you could buy another top striker and winger, and then try get a cheap defender to provide cover. That would massively improve Liverpools squad. Maybe a cheeky bid for one of Spurs forwards, by Christmas one of them will want to move on and they'd be relatively cheap.

mike65

I reckon there are 3 clubs with serious interest in Crouch - Villa, Pompey and City. With Newcastle a possibility dispite Owens stated intentions, its reckoned a decent offer will see him move on.

Mike.

machiavellianme

mike65 wrote: »

I reckon there are 3 clubs with serious interest in Crouch - Villa, Pompey and City. With Newcastle a possibility dispite Owens stated intentions, its reckoned a decent offer will see him move on.

Mike.

Swap him with City for Richards and we have defensive cover sorted for CB and RB.

On a more serious note, how much is Crouch worth?
Considering the price Bent sold for would we get 15 for him?

PHB

Bent was the top English goal scorer for two seasons in the premiership at around 15 a year for a crap team. Spurs overpaid. I think if you sold Crouch you'd get maybe 8-9 million for him if you find somebody with money willing. Pompey I can't see buying him considering their current strike force, City have their sights set higher like Anelka, Villa I think would have a serious interest. Can't see Big Sam making a move, he already has Owen, Martins, Viduka, Siberski, Smith.

Sizzler

PHB wrote: »

Can't see Big Sam making a move, he already has Owen, Martins, Viduka, Siberski, Smith.

Sibierski plays for Wigan

Jesus Wept

I don't understand adding Voronin to our strikers and then selling Crouch.

That weakens our attacking options in my view, but maybe I rate Crouch higher than most.

PHB

Sizzler wrote: »

Sibierski plays for Wigan

I always confuse Sibierski with Ameboi

An Citeog

The-Rigger wrote: »

I don't understand adding Voronin to our strikers and then selling Crouch.

That weakens our attacking options in my view, but maybe I rate Crouch higher than most.

Voronin doesn't provide anything that Torres, Babel or Kuyt (yes, even Kuyt ) couldn't. I know he was free and all but he just isn't good enough. Crouch, on the other hand, offers Liverpool a completely different dimension.

Lol if you think Liverpool will get Richards! You'd realistically be looking for 15+ million + Crouch and that's something Rafa would be unwilling to do.

Chucky the tree

PHB wrote: »

The rumours also mentioned he was gona offload people to make the money, including Riise Crouch and Sissoko.

Sissoko signd a new deal in the summer so he wont be leaving.

Tusky

The-Rigger wrote: »

I don't understand adding Voronin to our strikers and then selling Crouch.

That weakens our attacking options in my view, but maybe I rate Crouch higher than most.

I agree, hes a decent player and I'd be happy enough to have him as 4th choice if someone gets injured but hes been playing far too many games. I'm not really against rotation but I dont like the way the strikers are constantly shuffled. I think the team should be able to play well regardless of how the formation/team sheet is changed but there should be some level of consistency with the strikers. If we are getting rid of Crouch we need to bring in a striker with pace. Even with the addition of Torres, we dont have enough pace up front. Look at Barcelona - Henry, Eto'o, Messi, Ronaldiniho or Utd with Saha, Rooney, Tevez. I could go on, the point is our strike force is embarrassingly slow.

mike65

I taped the last 20 of the game repeat last night (I could'nt stand to sit through it!)
the difference between before and after Kewell and Crouch came on was obvious to a blind man, I saw Harry do things that no liverpool player has done this season. No I'm not kidding and the ability to cushion a 40 yard pass and lay it off with the second touch should not be newsworthy but that kind of ability has been so absent I thought I should mention it.

Also Sissoko was'nt actually bad at all overall, which was a suprise.

Just spotted this by Didi
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/11/04/sfnham104.xml

Mike.

Chardee MacDennis

i notice his control straight away - it's fantastic; much better than at least nine of the others last night.

mayordenis

Call_me_al wrote: »

i notice his control straight away - it's fantastic; much better than at least nine of the others last night.

i agree we can't really fault pepe