Shannon Aer Lingus Row

miju

Liam Byrne wrote:

If they pulled ALL slots, yes, but they could easily pull one or two if the rationale is to form a base in Belfast....after all, it's only 90 mins or so up the motorway....similar to Limerick - Cork.

yes they could pull one or two slots from Dublin but lets be realistic here Dublin is the capital of the country and cant remember the exact figure but somewere of 70% of money generated in the economy comes from Dublin and we have the biggest population.......try think clearly for a minute will ye

Liam Byrne wrote:

if they do that in an effort to help out in this crisis, then better late than never;

again lets get real here this isn't a crisis it's a few slots to heathrow, people can fly to gatwick etc and / or bring in a different airline with heathrow slots. of course people in the west will have to stop their hand wringing first and be proactive in solving the problem (not a crisis) and theres no signs of anyone in the west taking this initiative anytime soon

Liam Byrne

miju wrote:

Dublin is the capital of the country and cant remember the exact figure but somewere of 70% of money generated in the economy comes from Dublin and we have the biggest population

Agreed, at least in general terms, but the question is WHY ? Because Dublin has all of the required infrastructure and easy access to abroad, therefore many people are forced to move there in order to get jobs, thereby imbalancing the whole country.

This Government claims to support regional development, and has so far only attempted to do so in one half-assed, ill-thought-out way - decentralisation.

If they acted on an actual issue, rather than creating one which creates problems of its own, then it might be more productive.

The alternative is that the remainder of the population is left to languish without any international jobs, and potentially (worst-case scenario) forced to join everyone currently in Dublin because there's nothing worthwhile anywhere else.

I'm not whinging here.....fact is that the Western Road Network and the Limerick-Shannon-Ennis-Galway-Sligo rail corridor have been proposed, agreed and then delayed on numerous occasions because of funding issues; meanwhile the Government spends our money to buy out NTR and build Luas, metro, rail links to the overcrowded Dublin airport and even money for a new terminal......yes, investment in the capital is required, but the imbalance is ludicrous and only makes matters worse, since if the remainder of the country is neglected more people will have to move or commute, meaning the underlying problems do not get addressed or solved.

Yes, the ultimate cock-up is by the Government; if there was a proper infrastructure in this country then Shannon-Heathrow would not be a crisis; for feck's sake, many of RyanAir's continental city airports are farther from their cities than Limerick - Cork; if the infrastructure was there, then this would be a problem, not a crisis.

But the fact is that due to Government ineptitude, directly landing in Shannon is the only option for people flying in and out of the west.......while I would have no problem with a fully-private company making a decision like this - however ill-thought-out, it's their cock-up if they want to ditch a profit-making route for a potentially bigger one with way more competition - but the annoyance is at the Government, as a major shareholder [supposedly on our behalf] saying there's "nothing" they can do.

Also, bear in mind that a national much-sought-after resource, has gone outside the country, and if that goes unchallenged the Cork and Dublin ones could be next as soon as Aer Lingus decides that profit comes before people* no matter what the cost**.

* Understandable
** Understandable IF there was a loss, but not understandable considering there were already substantial profits from Shannon and the fact that that Belfast is such a gamble with the existing competition on the routes; also completely and stunningly arrogant considering that the Government, with its supposed regional policy, is a major shareholder

The Government buys out the Western Toll Bridge, at our expense, in order to improve infrastructure in Dublin; the Government stands idly by while an airline, in which it has shares and an existing say, disimproves infrastructure in the west.

There was talk before the election that a Mayo Taoiseach was urgently required......events over the past week have proved this.

Yes, Shannon can try and get a new Heathrow link, but that will take time and money.....as asked above, imagine if National Toll Roads decided that they'd demolish the West Link bridge and take a chance on a potentially more lucrative but completely unproven bridge somewhere else ?

While it would be in the interests of all affected to get off their own arses, give the two fingers to NTR and get someone else to build a new bridge, what would the effect be on Dublin in the interim ?

And I can hazard a guess that Shane Ross and the Government would ENSURE that State assistance would be available and would not be rambling that there was "nothing they could do to help". Or are you seriously suggesting that they would tell business and residents in the area to go find an alternative provider all by themselves ?

Akrasia

miju wrote:

times change deal with it :rolleyes:

Times don't just change by themselves, they are changed, and the privatisation of National assets is a deliberate strategy which has failed miserably every single time it has been tried. And it's still the dominant ideology in Government.

I'll say it again. What would the people of Dublin think if the private owners of the east link toll bridge unilaterally decided to close the bridge because they could make more money using it for something else?

It's the same thing. A transport link that the west Needs has been unilaterally shut down and it is going to cost many people their jobs.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

A decision was made to privatise, but a decision was also made to keep a 25% stake in order to retain influence.

I reckon the 25% was kept to make the unions think there was a strategic interest being kept-in reality it meant nothing and could have meant nothing.

Are you now saying that the Government should stand back and allow an essential transport link be removed from the west of Ireland

It's not that essential.
Freight has reasonable alternatives.
The only other disadvantage it has is,it means "fat cat executives" have to use ryanair to Gatwick and spend an hour on a train to heathrow.
God love them...the poor things.

(Imagine if the owners of the west link toll bridge, a private company, decided they'd make more money by closing off the motorway and opening up a starbucks franchise)

Uhm they couldn't possibly make more money on that but I take your point.
4 heathrow slots would cost about £350 stg for the government to buy (according to Moore McDowell on the last word last week).
He suggested that the local councils/agencies etc do a collection if it's allowed.
They might not be available to buy though and E.U rules would probably be broken if they were bought directly off EI.
That said EI rent some to U.S airlines at heatrow afaik so ,there could be some thought put into a bidding war for the rent of them.

J.S. Pill

Liam Byrne wrote:

Also, bear in mind that a national much-sought-after resource, has gone outside the country, and if that goes unchallenged the Cork and Dublin ones could be next as soon as Aer Lingus decides that profit comes before people* no matter what the cost**.

* Understandable
** Understandable IF there was a loss, but not understandable considering there were already substantial profits from Shannon and the fact that that Belfast is such a gamble with the existing competition on the routes; also completely and stunningly arrogant considering that the Government, with its supposed regional policy, is a major shareholder

Am I right in saying that Aer Lingus doesn't really have the option of operating from both Shannon and Belfast because it has a limited amount of slots at Heathrow - it has to be one or the other but not both irrespective of that fact that they both would be profitable?

I read in the business post this morning that Aer Lingus leases 2 of its Heathrow slots to Continental airlines and BMI. Would the Aer Lingus not be able to cancel there leases at all?

Villain

Tristrame wrote:

It's not that essential.
Freight has reasonable alternatives.
The only other disadvantage it has is,it means "fat cat executives" have to use ryanair to Gatwick and spend an hour on a train to heathrow.
God love them...the poor things.

The problem Tristrame is those "fat cat executives" bring jobs and money to the West of Ireland and there isn't exactly a queue of them of them in America or Europe looking to invest so instead of forcing them to fly to Gatwick and go to Heathrow we should be helping them in any way we can, the last thing the Irish Economy needs right now is for the Government to get complacent.

I have no great love for FF as you know but they have managed to build a strong economy and while the East and Midlands have been booming the West hasn't seen the same level of growth. If this really is a commercial decision I'd love to see the figures including the offer from Shannon Airport to cut €4 million a year in charges to Aer Lingus.

I have no doubt that the people of the West are over stating the impact as are the media when the Dail and Courts are closed there isn't much news to report but the Government need to help the people of the West of Ireland they sold the national airline and there is no point in having 25% of shares if they aren't willing to use them to try and force Aer Lingus to keep some Heathrow routes in Shannon.

Zebra3

Akrasia wrote:

Times don't just change by themselves, they are changed, and the privatisation of National assets is a deliberate strategy which has failed miserably every single time it has been tried. And it's still the dominant ideology in Government.

Yep, and Willie O'Dea a minister in that government got 19,082 votes = 38.65% in the recent elections so the locals around Shannon seemed to have been happy enough with this policy of privatisation.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

The problem Tristrame is those "fat cat executives" bring jobs and money to the West of Ireland and there isn't exactly a queue of them of them in America or Europe looking to invest so instead of forcing them to fly to Gatwick and go to Heathrow we should be helping them in any way we can, the last thing the Irish Economy needs right now is for the Government to get complacent.

Apparently they aren't.
They've been chatting to citijet regarding CDG.

Villain

They have 0% share in Cityjet and 25% share in Aer Lingus, I think they would be better off taking Michael O'Leary's offer and using his 25% along with the employee's 15% to get Aer Lingus to keep some slots in Shannon.

Also the Cityjet talks are apparently about using Paris as a hub for international flights so not exactly the same either. But at least they are telling RTE they are doing something to keep the media hounds at bay.

markpb

Tristrame wrote:

I reckon the 25% was kept to make the unions think there was a strategic interest being kept-in reality it meant nothing and could have meant nothing.

Martin Cullen said at the time he was withholding 25% of the shares because the Heathrow slots were a strategic national asset and he didn't want to see another airline buy up Aer Lingus just for it's slots. I don't care either way about this issue but the hypocrisy of the government going back on it's word annoys me.

4 heathrow slots would cost about £350 stg for the government to buy (according to Moore McDowell on the last word last week).
He suggested that the local councils/agencies etc do a collection if it's allowed. They might not be available to buy though and E.U rules would probably be broken if they were bought directly off EI.

As far as I know, they're not available from LHR, they can only be bought from another airline and they usually go for astronomical prices. Buying more simply isn't an option.

I don't except that there is anything wrong with CDG being a replacement hub.

Thing is ,an executive can fly business class all the way to practically anywhere on cityjet via paris.
It's the exact same flight time roughly as heathrow with a huge quantity of business class connections,to North south and central America,Aisa and the rest of the world, (Gatwick is poor in that regard).

If it's London only that the executive wants then Gatwick is grand.
I understand it's the loss of LHR as an onward hub that these people were concerned about.They have no excuse as regards a lack of access to London on it's own and freight can easily be routed through CDG.

I didn't know O'Leary actually offered to row in with the government,when did he offer that?
I'd only heard that it was theoretically possible but hadn't heard of any offer.
That would surprise me as I thought O'Leary would have been delighted with the EI decision to move the heathrow slots.

As for media hounds being at bay-I'd imagine that any government would be "doing something" about this situation.They'd lose a lot of Willy O'Dea's votes if they weren't.
But I'd imagine also that they could not say anything publically untill they had some positive indication that the likes of Cityjet or whoever else were interested.

markpb

markpb wrote:

Martin Cullen said at the time he was withholding 25% of the shares because the Heathrow slots were a strategic national asset and he didn't want to see another airline buy up Aer Lingus just for it's slots. I don't care either way about this issue but the hypocrisy of the government going back on it's word annoys me.

Correct they have been found out in that regard.
Mind you,it must have been obvious to any business analyst that those slots couldn't be sold (if the privatisation articles are to be believed) but they could be rented or moved.
I doubt any government could have fore seen that they would move them to Belfast with the ensue-ing tricky political fall out if there is a Dublin effort to reverse that decision.

lostexpectation

no chance of anyone buying aer lingus still, one of the huge airlines? and using the slots for anywhere to heathrow?

seamus

This is a money-motivated decision, pure and simple. AL pulled out of Shannon because the unions there had them running with relatively massive costs. Drop all your staff and move to a cheaper area, hire new staff onto proper non-union contracts, and your profits soar. The North is also set for massive economic growth - look at their housing market - so AL are just making the decision to cash in on it. And why not?

It's a commercial company, they're entitled to make this decision. I feel for people who are now feeling put out, but any company who makes their business depend 100% on a single airline operating a single route, has planned very very poorly and now has to deal with the consequences of their horrific business model.

Another airline will step into the breach, and will make trips to other UK airports. The companies affected will just have to deal with the change. The Government absolutely should not get involved.

I have a hunch that they'll put a few flights back into Shannon in a year or two, when they no longer have to pay exorbitent wages to union lifers.

Villain

Seamus do you honestly believe that the AL decision was not in any way influenced by the Irish and UK Government?

seamus

Not in the slightest.

Villain

It wasn't influenced in the slighest?

is_that_so

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0807/aerlingus.html. If people are looking for the initial release of the news they might find that link useful devoid as it is of Cromwell and other misgivings. Click on either the video or audio buttons to get a list of stories for that day.

seamus

irish1 wrote:

It wasn't influenced in the slighest?

I don't believe in the slightest that either Government had a hand in the decision. It was clearly motivated by political factors - the stability in the region and impending growth that I pointed out.

But I don't believe that the Irish government was involved. It's too much of a good decision for them to have been involved.

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

I reckon the 25% was kept to make the unions think there was a strategic interest being kept-in reality it meant nothing and could have meant nothing..

Tristrame, it was an exercise in public relations, and intended entirely to deceive, not just the Unions, but also the public in the run up to an election.

Indefensible behavior and quite standard operating procedure in Irish politics.

I have heard a lot of people say "But the public knew FF was in favor of privatisations, but they still voted for them therefore they must also agree with (or at least put up with) the consequences"

The reality is different. The public was deceived and lied to. While some of this is the fault of the public for being too trustworthy, the majority of the blame lies with the corrupt self serving politicians themselves. (I regard deliberate deception to be a form of corruption)

ednwireland

irish1 wrote:

They have 0% share in Cityjet and 25% share in Aer Lingus, I think they would be better off taking Michael O'Leary's offer and using his 25% along with the employee's 15% to get Aer Lingus to keep some slots in Shannon.

the same michael o'leary who said he would sell of 2/3 of AL's heathrow slots if the EU allowed him to take over AL
sorry but you boys sure have short memories
MOL does nothing that does not suit his business dont know why he mde that offer but i doubt its for the good of the people of the midwest.

edit
just saw another thing bmi are transferring heathrow slots to transatlantic so i would expect them to reduce there flights from city to heathrow

ednwireland

ednwireland wrote:

the same michael o'leary who said he would sell of 2/3 of AL's heathrow slots if the EU allowed him to take over AL
sorry but you boys sure have short memories

Indeed.
I found this post the funniest of the thread.

Imagine thinking that the Green party of all people should come out and support more flights...

Villain

Tristrame wrote:

Indeed.
I found this post the funniest of the thread.

Imagine thinking that the Green party of all people should come out and support more flights...

I wasn't saying what they would do Trsitrame I simply asking if they had an opinion on it or are they simply following FF although FF don't seem to know what they are doing Willie O'Dea is saying one thing Noel Dempsey is saying another.

Michael O'Leary has offered his support on this issue if you want to question his motives fair enough but the fact remains that if the Government used their 25% along with O'Leary's shares and the employee's shares they could have a majority to force the board to rethink.

So laugh all you want Tristrame but I don't think the Green Party were voted in to say nothing on a major issue such as this one, especially now as 25,000 passengers will be left stranded Tuesday and Wednesday if the planned strike goes ahead. Although perhaps you think members of cabinet should say nothing?

jmayo

Tristrame wrote:

Indeed.
I found this post the funniest of the thread.

Imagine thinking that the Green party of all people should come out and support more flights...

Green party only interested if the airline is carrying military personnel, otherwise they tow the government line which appears to be "it has nothing to do with us and we are now really really trying to find a solution".
i.e. we will make a few speeches condemming those commerical types now running Aer Lingus, do a bit of hand wringing and hope to God the storm has blown over by the time of the next election.

Maybe Air America or Aero Contractors will take some of the stranded passengers while they are on their way to/from Eastern Europe or wherever their next pickup/dropoff is
But of course then the GP would really start their usual sqawking ...

Isn't Bertie very quiet, surprising there must be no races to go to or pubs to open :rolleyes:
It's bad luck for him, the next two big festivals are in Kerry, the Rose of Tralee and Listowel Races.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

So laugh all you want Tristrame but I don't think the Green Party were voted in to say nothing on a major issue such as this one, especially now as 25,000 passengers will be left stranded Tuesday and Wednesday if the planned strike goes ahead. Although perhaps you think members of cabinet should say nothing?

You don't seem to understand the word "green" in Green party.
As for the strike.
Thats airline unions for you.
EI unions strike far less than BA unions though.
As for passengers stranded,they've plenty of notice to switch to other airlines or change arrangements.Between free changes and insurance they won't be out of pocket.
I doubt that many will be stranded.

Honestly you are trying to be emotive instead of being logical.
The mayor of Shannon on the news at one was worse than you yesterday though.
He was making out that Gatwick and stansted were isolated from central London.
Both have direct train links that get you there in 30 minutes just like heathrow...
In other words he hadn't researched this at all and was jumping on a bandwagon to talk out of his hat.

He looked very silly when this was pointed out to him on the news at one.

I see O'Leary in a press conference in shannon just has said he is using his shares to call an EI EGM to allow shareholders to vote against the ending of the LHR route.
That would probably pass as the government would have to support it as would the pilots and the unions.

O' Leary isn't doing this for the good of shannon of course,he just wants to nueter the belfast heathrow links which are competition for ryanair.

J.S. Pill

Tristrame wrote:

O' Leary isn't doing this for the good of shannon of course,he just wants to nueter the belfast heathrow links which are competition for ryanair.

It will be interesting to see how he's going to frame this though

jmayo

Tristrame wrote:

I see O'Leary in a press conference in shannon just has said he is using his shares to call an EI EGM to allow shareholders to vote against the ending of the LHR route.
That would probably pass as the government would have to support it as would the pilots and the unions.

O' Leary isn't doing this for the good of shannon of course,he just wants to nueter the belfast heathrow links which are competition for ryanair.

MOL is in a win situation.
He gets to screw Aer Lingus and he gets to nail Bertie's government.
The government are screwed if they don't vote to retain Shannon links but on the other hand they are screwed also for interferring in the running of Aer Lingus.
If they interfer the government will also be accussed of not supporting the economic recovery of our northern brethern which they proabably agreed to, in order to convice the parties to accept the power sharing mullarkey.

MOL 1 Government 0

is_that_so

Since the Open Skies Agreement came into effect there is very little that the government can do without getting into trouble. Notwithstanding the cackhanded political handling of all this all they can really do is send Willie "Cromwell" O'Dea out to keep changing his position. Dempsey is no use because no-one ever listens to him anyway.

As for O'Leary, well he's the master of publicity and he's still sore about the EU dustdown. It is in no-one's interest but his own whatever he is up to. It'll be another excuse to take a swipe at anyone who took his toys.

TBH since the story came out it has got more ridiculous by the day. Political representative are almost forced into saying anything, however foolish or untrue. Most of them wouldn't know what the Open Skies agreement or a hub was if it bit them on the behind.

I'd recommend listening to Gerry Byrne talking to Keenan Shanley yesterday for a bit of impartial detail. And for a bit of entertainment the great Michael Ring TD in action this morning. :rolleyes:

Liam Byrne

Whether or not Gerry Byrne believes the Government is powerless, or whether they are indeed powerless, is irrelevant.

The Government kept a 25% stake in order to ensure that Ireland was represented. Previous Government statements about the privatisation of Aer Lingus indicated how important the SNN-LHR links were, and that they would be kept. If the Government are now powerless, they either screwed up big-time, were lying, or are secretly backing this because of the Northern angle. I don't know enough to say which, and won't propose a conspiracy theory, but those are the only 3 options that I can see.

And while I genuinely don't want to go conspiracy theory, if they don't use their shareholding to represent us [the reason for keeping it], then it probably narrows those options down from 3.....

PLUS: Aer Lingus' decision cannot be justified on a commercial basis; going from a profit-making, uncontested route to one on which they will at least have to compete with serious competitors in a market where they are barely known.

Add in the fact that the whole fiasco of taking the slots "abroad" has shown that privatisation is not in the best interests of the country or our regional development strategy, and you can see that the Government has learned absolutely nothing since the privatisation fiasco that was Telecom Eireann.....[or they've learned everything, like how to promise the moon and stars and then blame those big bad corporations when things go arseways]