Shannon Aer Lingus Row

markpb

Liam Byrne wrote:

PLUS: Aer Lingus' decision cannot be justified on a commercial basis; going from a profit-making, uncontested route to one on which they will at least have to compete with serious competitors in a market where they are barely known.

What other reason do you think AL have for taking this decision?

I'd imagine the benefits of moving to a an area with a much larger population, better transport links and, like others have said, new working agreements outweigh the risks of losing Shannon and having to compete.

Personally I think the pension angle is being under-played in the media. Defined benefits pensions are strangling them and the unions won't consider letting new employees be hired on a defined-contribution pension. All the old semi-states and big companies (like the banks) are doing their best to break the unions control over pensions. We had exactly the same row in BoI last year. If Aer Lingus hire the same number of employees in Belfast at exactly the same wage and benefits but with a change in pension, they'll save tens (or hundreds) of thousands in the long run.

ixoy

Tristrame wrote:

As for passengers stranded,they've plenty of notice to switch to other airlines or change arrangements.Between free changes and insurance they won't be out of pocket.
I doubt that many will be stranded.

Firstly, they may be unaware of it if they're abroad and not following the Irish news (more than a fair chance of that).
Secondly, do you honestly think that, at short notice, those who are aware of the issue will find it easy to switch to other flights and that there will be sufficient room for them? Or that there's no knock on effects such as hotel bookings, etc?
I know I'm now now wondering what to do about my Aer Lingus flight the following week given the threat hanging over it.

ixoy

ixoy wrote:

Firstly, they may be unaware of it if they're abroad and not following the Irish news (more than a fair chance of that).

That point taken.
Usually when you book a flight,you will have given a mobile phone contact number so EI should be leaving a voicemail on that.
Thats no guarantee that it will be heard of course.Travel insurance would in those circumstances pay for an extra nights accomadation.

Secondly, do you honestly think that, at short notice, those who are aware of the issue will find it easy to switch to other flights and that there will be sufficient room for them? Or that there's no knock on effects such as hotel bookings, etc?

With more than 7 days notice,a lot can be done in most cases I think. Many if not most hotels will allow you to cancel or change a booking without penalty, up to noon on the day you are supposed to be arriving.
Of the 25,000 passengers involved some will take the money back offer.
Given that they're not all going to the same places obviously.
I've access to expertflyer.com and I did a dummy check there on an EI flight to Faro and theres 120 seats available the day after the strike and oodles even on the sunday before the strike.
It's similar to amsterdam,and thats only 2 of the EI's that I've checked.

On the first day of the strike (and I'm looking at a live seatmap) practicall the whole of one BA flight to Gatwick is empty.
Honestly I've been caught up in 2 BA strikes recently and airlines do their best to re book you with other airlines on the same day.

I know I'm now now wondering what to do about my Aer Lingus flight the following week given the threat hanging over it.

You can only deal with the 2 days that are involved at the moment.
It's pointless worrying about days that are not involved.
However as a precaution,I'd budget for having to overnight in a hotel as travel insurance will reimburse you.

Villain

MOL has Bertie on the ropes now did anyone hear his interview on Radio 1 on the 1 o clock news? Basicallly he has left it to the government to decide whether or not they want Aer Lingus to stay in Shannon by either voting with him or if they want Ryanair will excempt from voting and the Government and the employee's can save the shannon link themselves either way the Government now have to act. As MOL said there is no reason why Aer Lingus can't keep the shannon link and develop a Belfast link. MOL has once again showed that when it comes to PR he is the best around.

J.S. Pill

irish1 wrote:

As MOL said there is no reason why Aer Lingus can't keep the shannon link and develop a Belfast link.

Is this actually true though? Michael O' Leary said the main reason he's opposed to the withdrawal of the Shannon link is because as a shareholder he sees no reason why AL should abandon a profitable route. Can anyone think of any other reasons he would have for advocating this plan? Its Michael O' Leary, there must be several.

Villain

It is true imo Aer Lingus are currently leasing out two slots in Heathrow there is no reason why they can't use those two slots along with 1 Shannon slot to form a base in Belfast and still leave Shannon with 3 Heathrow slots.

Of course there is other reasons why MOL is opposed I'd say imo the main one is he has the Government bent over a barell now with there trousers down, if the Government want Aer Lingus to change there mind as Willie O'Dea has said MOL has given them that chance by calling an EGM if they don't use their vote to change the decision they will be seen to have failed the people of Shannon.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

MOL has Bertie on the ropes now did anyone hear his interview on Radio 1 on the 1 o clock news? Basicallly he has left it to the government to decide whether or not they want Aer Lingus to stay in Shannon by either voting with him or if they want Ryanair will excempt from voting and the Government and the employee's can save the shannon link themselves either way the Government now have to act. As MOL said there is no reason why Aer Lingus can't keep the shannon link and develop a Belfast link. MOL has once again showed that when it comes to PR he is the best around.

Yes but MOL was fairly stumped on the news at one when he was asked why he would support keeping the shannon heathrow slots when more money could be made from them in Belfast.
To maximise revenue,they should move them all including the rented ones to Belfast,it being a regional UK airport with a much bigger potential demand for business travel and leisure travel via heathrow.
He was caught out there...
MOL is having a bit of crack with his 25% EI shareholding and shur why not.

I have to say I can't wait to see Ahern and especially O' Dea try to worm their way out of this EGM.
It won't be easy for them.

Villain

Actually I think he answered that quite well I believe he said why replace a profitable route with one that may or may not be profitable especially seeing as Shannon have said they will cut costs to make the route even more profitable for Aer Lingus.

Its interesting to hear too that there was in the past a Belfast to Heathrow route in operation by BA but they pulled the plug on it.

jmayo

Tristrame wrote:

As for passengers stranded,they've plenty of notice to switch to other airlines or change arrangements.Between free changes and insurance they won't be out of pocket.
I doubt that many will be stranded.

I know what it is like to suddenly come back to this fair isle and a strike at Dublin airport.
I arrived back on a day of the infamous taxi drivers stike.
The first I heard about it was when I got an Irish newspaper on-board the returning US flight.

Not everybody is listening to RTE on the internet or surfing the Irish newspapers while they are away either on business or pleasure.
We are a small insignificant island and our big news is little news of no consequence to the larger world.

MOL I think can act like the ass, but you don't build an airline like RyanAir without being one smart ruthless cookie.
I think Bertie and his gaggle deserve the kick in the ass from MOL.

On a side topic people are always complaining about Ryanair and MOL.
Yes, they can offer a cr** service with none of the nicities that you once got when travelling but then again because of them we are not paying extortinate amounts of money to Aer Lingus to get the hell on and off this island.
Why has their been this myth that Aer Lingus have done great service for the people of Ireland.
I think the great service has always been for themselves and their employees.

El Stuntman

O'Leary for President!

He's having a good week, must be chuckling into his breakfast roll at the sorry state of AL and the government.

Is there any state,semi-state or former semi-state sector where the unions have not been threatening all-out jihad in the last few years?

Teachers? tick
Nurses? tick
ESB? tick
Irish Rail? tick
Aer Lingus? tick
Gardai? tick
Hospital consultants? tick
Eircom? tick

etc, etc - you get the picture. All the time while these union dinosaurs fail to realise that the world has changed utterly since 1975, our competitiveness goes down the tubes, the customers get screwed and this useless government does nothing.

bah, rant over :mad:

irish1

irish1 wrote:

Actually I think he answered that quite well I believe he said why replace a profitable route with one that may or may not be profitable especially seeing as Shannon have said they will cut costs to make the route even more profitable for Aer Lingus.

No listen again,he had to pause.He could have been nailed on it.
MOL of all people, the opener of new routes right left and centre is being very insincere if he's trying to pretend that Belfast hasn't more potential as a hub than shannon.
MOL is having a bit of crack with his new shareholding and is as another poster said probably chuckling into his cornflakes.
MOL has no interest in heatrow I reckon-he likes airports with 30 minute turn rounds and not ones that could potentially delay his planes on a regular basis.

Its interesting to hear too that there was in the past a Belfast to Heathrow route in operation by BA but they pulled the plug on it.

Thats irrelevant.

You may aswell say that the Irish government closed down the ranelagh tram in the 1950's...it doesn't mean that the luas is unprofitable...

Theres nothing interesting relative to the SNN-LHR debate about BA closing a Belfast-Heathrow route prior to a final solution to the troubles and prior to the "new investment and growth" situation up there.

SkepticOne

I think O'Leary is probably correct when he says that the Shannon route is more profitable (at least in the short term) where Aer Lingus does not have the level of competition they would have in Belfast.

However, O'Leary's aim is not to maximise Ryanair's return on the 25% in Aer Lingus, which is afterall one of Ryanair's competitors. Although the 25% is large in Aer Lingus terms it is very compared to Ryanair. It makes much more sense to use this stake to further Ryanair's aims at the expense of Aer Lingus.

By opposing the closing of the Shannon - Heathrow route, they are making it harder for Aer Lingus to expand properly into Belfast. Aer Lingus don't have the slots to cover both routes. Once Aer Lingus expand into Belfast, with local labour conditions, they can then expand into Eastern Europe and beyond. There is no way they can do this if they are forced to adopt Irish union restrictive working practices and pay levels. No threat to Ryanair that way and therefore it makes sense for Ryanair to strengthen the hand of the Aer Lingus unions in this way.

You can see why the government were very quiet the last few days. They did not want to play into the hand of O'Leary. Obviously it is in the best interest of the country to have Aer Lingus acting on a purely commercial basis but it looks like the hand of the government will be forced to back O'Leary at the expense of Aer Lingus management and the country.

I don't know how feasible this is, but if I was Aer Lingus, I would be looking to see whether anything can be done with the competition authority. Ryanair is using a stake in a competing company to undermine that company. This is surely anti-competitive.

jmayo

SkepticOne wrote:

You can see why the government were very quiet the last few days. They did not want to play into the hand of O'Leary. Obviously it is in the best interest of the country to have Aer Lingus acting on a purely commercial basis but it looks like the hand of the government will be forced to back O'Leary at the expense of Aer Lingus management and the country.

Maybe in the best interest of part of the country, the part that Aer Lingus will continue to fly to ?
It is in the best interests of everyone (taxpayers, shareholders, government, and employees) to have Aer Lingus profitable, but the decision to pull a link to LHR and divert it to another country (Northern Ireland is still another country in a different revenue jurisdiction) is not in the best interests of this country.

SkepticOne

jmayo wrote:

Maybe in the best interest of part of the country, the part that Aer Lingus will continue to fly to ?
It is in the best interests of everyone (taxpayers, shareholders, government, and employees) to have Aer Lingus profitable, but the decision to pull a link to LHR and divert it to another country (Northern Ireland is still another country in a different revenue jurisdiction) is not in the best interests of this country.

There's a short term hit to the region which would, if the route is indeed profitable, be filled by another airline. If this new airline is not weighed down by restrictive practices then so much the better for everyone including the people of the region, imo.

jmayo

SkepticOne wrote:

There's a short term hit to the region which would, if the route is indeed profitable, be filled by another airline. If this new airline is not weighed down by restrictive practices then so much the better for everyone including the people of the region, imo.

It is more than a short term hit if there is no link from Shannon into a major European hub. It is just not Shannon industrial area we are talking about, it is also Limerick and Galway. Telling the passengers to go to Dublin or Cork is not an answer. Flying them into London City or Standstead is not an answer.

The other question is will another airline divert one of the very precious slots at Heathrow to fly the Shannon route?
The answer is probably NO.

On all these forums there appears to be a screw Shannon airport ethos and it is time they lived in the commerical world attitude. I will whole heartedly agree that Shannon airport has been given preferential treatment, but dropping this link screws a lot more people than the outdated work practice overpaid Aer Lingus employees at Shannon and the airport itself.
The link is very important to Mid West tourism and business now and in the future.
How many major multinationals are based in Mid West?

And as pointed out by golfer last night on TV, if he has to jump through hoops to get to Shannon rather than catch a connection in Heathrow, then why will he bother?
Ok one golfer you may say, but how many golfers will bother going to trouble to come play Lahinch, Waterville, Killarney, Adare etc.
That is a loss to the economy of three counties.
Are they expected to drag their clubs across London to get a connection or arrive in the mess that is Dublin and it's constricted road links ?
I know lot of people right up to Mayo, that have looked and do look at Shannon as their nearest major airport, not the disaster that is Dublin airport.

It looks like the only option at the moment may be use KLM and Amsterdam.

El Stuntman

surely if it's such a profitable route, then another airline will step in to fill the gap?

AL management decide where to best allocate their corporate resources in order to maximise shareholder value, that's their job. Their job is not to act in the regional interests of Wee Willie and his mates. Not hard to understand...

is_that_so

What has been most interesting about all of this if that is the right word is how quickly it has exploded to encompass almost everything that Aer Lingus does. It also sums up how deeply embedded in the past we can be sometimes.


There are a couple of aspects to this apart from the hot air as far as I can see.

1. Shannon

Shannon has lived a very comfortable life for much of its existence and naturally wants to keep doing so. Those connected to it are depending on it but want their cake as well. There is no denying that it will have some effect on the region , but there is no evidence apart from a few carefully chosen surveys and some very extremely foolish politicians to say the decision will cause meltdown.

To me this suggests a serious lack of planning on the part of the Shannon itself. We are also still prone to "the poor mouth" when it suits us, even though we are reported to be one of the richest countries in the world.

2. Ostrich Politics

A lot of what we are looking at here is down to successive governments refusing to face up to possible futures for Shannon and make people aware that at some point things would change or have to change. Sadly it is a trait that seems set to continue into the future in many areas.

3. The Costs

Who knows what these are really and what benefits Belfast will bring? Even with MOL wading in, his own cost base does not include the type of restrictive practices that Aer Lingus have been lumbered with.
Why did Shannon "suddenly" find €4 million in savings for Aer Lingus?
Why did it do a special deal with Ryanair?

4. The Unions

IMO public unions in this country have caused more damage over the years than any other group, especially to public transport and utilities, through pure selfishness . As someone observed yesterday a strike is a very "crude" instrument. It also spells abject failure in this day and age. The unions have no-one's interests at heart except their own members. By wading in on this situation they only serve to make themselves even more unpopular and cost a company that they have a large shareholding in, a lot of money. Hardly the action of a responsible shareholder.

5. Aer Lingus

Aer Lingus is now a private entity, and therefore required to make commercial decisions. They are no longer "part of the fabric of Ireland". They may be a notional national carrier but their only responsibility is to produce the maximum profit for their shareholders. They have no social function any more and the Open Skies agreement restricts direct government interference.

TBH if some of the people ranting, spent as much time looking for alternative solutions as they do to sounding off ,they might be a little closer to a solution.

jmayo

El Stuntman wrote:

surely if it's such a profitable route, then another airline will step in to fill the gap?

AL management decide where to best allocate their corporate resources in order to maximise shareholder value, that's their job. Their job is not to act in the regional interests of Wee Willie and his mates. Not hard to understand...

Then why did the government maintain a stake of 25% in the company?
Why did the government help block the takeover of the company by Ryan Air?
It was all susposedly in the naitonal interest.
Maybe that should be rephrased to be the Dublin north interest ?

If the government are not going to use their 25% stake to guarantee the transport links of this country then why not sell their stake to Ryan Air and get out.
Then we will have a truly commerical Aer Lingus.

markpb

jmayo wrote:

Then why did the government maintain a stake of 25% in the company?

Because the government at the time were afraid of union and public opposition to the sale so they floated the idea of retaining a large share of the company so they could stop things like this. They probably never have had any intention of controlling the company, it was grease on the wheels to help the sale go through.

Why did the government help block the takeover of the company by Ryan Air?

Because the government at the time were afraid of union and public opposition to the takeover by Ryanair so they blocked it to keep people happy.

FF are the masters of giving people what they want at the time and keeping people happy enough to vote for them again. There's no master plan, there's no thinking things through - just do enough to get elected.

sovtek

El Stuntman wrote:

surely if it's such a profitable route, then another airline will step in to fill the gap?

AL management decide where to best allocate their corporate resources in order to maximise shareholder value, that's their job. Their job is not to act in the regional interests of Wee Willie and his mates. Not hard to understand...

Hence the folly of privatising a national asset and integral part of public transport.

John_C

Is this entire argument not based on the assumption that Shannon is more important than Belfast? If more people want to fly from Belfast to London than from Shannon, is the greater good not served by the move?

sovtek

John_C wrote:

Is this entire argument not based on the assumption that Shannon is more important than Belfast? If more people want to fly from Belfast to London than from Shannon, is the greater good not served by the move?

You mean people in a separate country?

El Stuntman

sovtek wrote:

Hence the folly of privatising a national asset and integral part of public transport.

different debate as to whether it's the government's business to be running airlines

in the most advanced parts of the world, governments tend to entrust such things to those that know how to do them i.e. private firms

the old AL was not a 'national asset', it was run by the workers, for the workers. The 'screw the customer' ethos appears to have survived the transformation however....

El Stuntman

jmayo wrote:

If the government are not going to use their 25% stake to guarantee the transport links of this country then why not sell their stake to Ryan Air and get out.
Then we will have a truly commerical Aer Lingus.

an excellent suggestion, I would love to see this happen.

If the gimps in IALPA think Dermot Mannion is a hardass, wait until they have Micko as boss!

John_C

sovtek wrote:

You mean people in a separate country?

If that's the basis of the complaint, then I have little time for it.

jmayo

markpb wrote:

Because the government at the time were afraid of union and public opposition to the sale so they floated the idea of retaining a large share of the company so they could stop things like this. They probably never have had any intention of controlling the company, it was grease on the wheels to help the sale go through.

Because the government at the time were afraid of union and public opposition to the takeover by Ryanair so they blocked it to keep people happy.

FF are the masters of giving people what they want at the time and keeping people happy enough to vote for them again. There's no master plan, there's no thinking things through - just do enough to get elected.

Exactly, but what are they going to do now?
Are they looking at the demographics and working out it is ok to now screw a few staff in Shannon and people who live/work in the Mid West?
But if Aer Lingus dare do anything that affects North Dublin then they have more to lose and will stamp their feet?

John_C wrote:

Is this entire argument not based on the assumption that Shannon is more important than Belfast? If more people want to fly from Belfast to London than from Shannon, is the greater good not served by the move?

Since when did the border move, is it now Western Ireland and Eastern Ireland ?
Belfast and Northern Ireland is a different country even though some organisations maintain we are all the one country.
I will class it as the same country when their taxpayers move their tax returns from the Inland Revenue to Reveneue Commissioners.

The government once again screwed up. They should have listed that the Heathrow slots should be mantained for the existing links to this country (i.e. the Republic of Ireland). Apart from that the airline could do what they wanted.

El Stuntman

jmayo wrote:

Exactly, but what are they going to do now?

lol, I think you've seen exactly what they are going to do - nothing at all

apart from let Wee Willie forget what collective cabinet responsibility is about and allow a few local TDs to do some muttering

jmayo wrote:

Are they looking at the demographics and working out it is ok to now screw a few staff in Shannon and people who live/work in the Mid West?

I don't understand this. Are you suggesting that the government, as minority shareholder in AL, should demand that Shannon-based staff should be made immune from market forces?

jmayo wrote:

But if Aer Lingus dare do anything that affects North Dublin then they have more to lose and will stamp their feet?

eh?

jmayo wrote:

Since when did the border move, is it now Western Ireland and Eastern Ireland ?
Belfast and Northern Ireland is a different country even though some organisations maintain we are all the one country.
I will class it as the same country when their taxpayers move their tax returns from the Inland Revenue to Reveneue Commissioners.

100% agree. This is why the pilot's stance is so insane

jmayo wrote:

The government once again screwed up. They should have listed that the Heathrow slots should be mantained for the existing links to this country (i.e. the Republic of Ireland). Apart from that the airline could do what they wanted.

yeah, well we voted for them didn't we? especially in the Shannon region...didn't you give a certain Mr O'Dea a huge majority?

sow what you reap and all that

jmayo

El Stuntman wrote:

lol, I think you've seen exactly what they are going to do - nothing at all

I don't understand this. Are you suggesting that the government, as minority shareholder in AL, should demand that Shannon-based staff should be made immune from market forces?

yeah, well we voted for them didn't we? especially in the Shannon region...didn't you give a certain Mr O'Dea a huge majority?

sow what you reap and all that

Hang on there now, check my nickname. Where did I say I live in Limerick and voted for that .... ahhhhhhhh. Village idiot.

I did spent a few years living there and working in Shannon in the past so that is why Iam concerned about this.
Even if I was still living there now, I would not give that gobs**** the steam off ....
Well you can guess the rest.

It is not the Aer Lingus staff I care about, it is the actual loss of the link.
I wouldn't care if Aer Lingus contracted it to chimpanzees just so long as the actual link was preserved.
There is a difference between fighting to preserve the route with the use of the Heathrow slots for Shannon and supporting the over unionised, uncivil, over protected Aer Lingus employees.
I think you will find the same opinion from many people who support preserving the link.

I wouldn't give two ***** if it was Iraqi or Afghan pilots and staff that were running the flights and manning the desks just so long as the plane got me straight into Heathrow from Shannon.

The point is if Aer Lingus pull the plug, other airlines will not want to come onto the route and use valuable Heathrow slots.

sovtek

El Stuntman wrote:

the old AL was not a 'national asset', it was run by the workers, for the workers. The 'screw the customer' ethos appears to have survived the transformation however....

Actually it was run by the Minister for Transport

Liam Byrne

John_C wrote:

If that's the basis of the complaint, then I have little time for it.

No, it's not the basis for the complaint, but it is certainly a factor. While we're [relatively] lucky that, in this case, the airport that Aer Lingus chose to move the slots to is at least on the same island (albeit about a 5-hour drive from the Mid-West), the principle is basically that the slots which the Government promised they would protect have been moved, not only away from Shannon, but essentially to another country.

Since Aer Lingus have bent the promise, in that they have not sold or gotten rid of the slots, they have conned the Government, but it's not a huge leap to see them potentially moving all the slots to other airports, while still "keeping" the slots (even if using them to fly from Japan to Heathrow).

Since we're an island nation, we'd be pretty f**ked then, but as usual the Dublin-b(i)ased Government don't give a flying f**k as long as it doesn't affect Be-be-bertie's backyard.... :mad:

For the principle and the future of all airports in Ireland, not just Shannon, this decision MUST be reversed.