Shannon Aer Lingus Row

Villain

Well 100 FF members including Councillors, Senator's, TD's and a Minister met last night to give the Government a message that should have Aer Lingus change their mind before the EGM but if it goes to an EGM they should vote to save the Shannon routes, the Cabinet are due to meet on teh 29th of August.

Willie O'Dea also said he believed Noel Dempsey had been ill advised about the impact of the decision on the region. FF need to sort this one out or it has the potential to cause real problems within the party.

El Stuntman

jmayo wrote:

It is not the Aer Lingus staff I care about, it is the actual loss of the link.
I wouldn't care if Aer Lingus contracted it to chimpanzees just so long as the actual link was preserved.There is a difference between fighting to preserve the route with the use of the Heathrow slots for Shannon and supporting the over unionised, uncivil, over protected Aer Lingus employees.
I think you will find the same opinion from many people who support preserving the link.

I wouldn't give two ***** if it was Iraqi or Afghan pilots and staff that were running the flights and manning the desks just so long as the plane got me straight into Heathrow from Shannon.

The point is if Aer Lingus pull the plug, other airlines will not want to come onto the route and use valuable Heathrow slots.

good to see we have similar opinions of the unions!

so if I can summarise your position: you are a (relative) local and you want a local service from your local airport straight into Heathrow. You're irate at Al's decision.

now the main airline who has provided this link for donkeys years (i.e. AL) has, in its wisdom, decided it can better maximise shareholder value by deploying its resources elsewhere (in this case out of Belfast). They have an absolute right, nay an obligation, to maximise shareholder value so this is a perfectly correct decision for them to make.

Now you (the irate local) are a bit snookered! bang goes your SNN-LHR link...doh.

However, if AL will not provide this route anymore but it is still a profitable route, surely its then up to the Shannon airport authorities to entice an alternative airline to provide the route (hence the noises about Cityjet).

Failing that and assuming its such a profitable route, why not set up your own airline and make a packet?

the alternative thinking is that LHR-SNN is not a viable, profitable route and no airline in their right mind will touch it with a bargepole. In that case, you (the irate local) will just have to either take an alternative route or go to your nearest airport that does have a LHR link.

the free market is a fickle mistress but it's a highly efficient one. If the people of Shannon wanted their cosy arrangements protected in perpetuity, then they should have voted Labour or Sinn Fein.

El Stuntman

sovtek wrote:

I guess that's why where they have the most severe form of private ownership of airlines the safety record is the worst.

please elaborate further on this, I am intrigued! Which countries/regions do you consider to have the most privatised air travel markets and by extension (according to you) the worst safety records?

jmayo

El Stuntman wrote:

good to see we have similar opinions of the unions!

so if I can summarise your position: you are a (relative) local and you want a local service from your local airport straight into Heathrow. You're irate at Al's decision.

Supposedly the LHR slots were for the use of the airline and this country, but as usual the government f***ed up and now the airline can cut the country's necessary transport links.

Have you ever thought that maybe a lot of people in the West/Mid West don't want to have to drag their asses across the country by car, since no real adequate rail infrastructure to the great capital, then get stuck for maybe hour or more in the mess that is called the M50 to arrive at the f***ing disaster that is Dublin airport?
Oh and if do happen to live beside one of the couple of railway lines, the line ends in Heuston station, there is no link to the airport.
Driving to Cork is not an option either for lots of people.

I have visited many airports around the world and Dublin ranks highly among them as being one of the worse. Now of course I haven't visited Africa so maybe Dar es Salaam, Kinshasa or Nariobi are better or worse?
Maybe you can answer that?

As pointed out by that eejit O'Dea this morning, if they pull the LHR slots for Shannon routes what is to stop them from doing so from Cork and then Dublin.
Tell you what, I think people that do not live in the capital or it's sprawling surrounds, should start a campaign that AL now change their LHR slots from Dublin to other European destinations and dump Dublin routes altogether. After all that may be more profitable for the shareholders and that is what matters.

El Stuntman

jmayo wrote:

Supposedly the LHR slots were for the use of the airline and this country, but as usual the government f***ed up and now the airline can cut the country's necessary transport links.

Have you ever thought that maybe a lot of people in the West/Mid West don't want to have to drag their asses across the country by car, since no real adequate rail infrastructure to the great capital, then get stuck for maybe hour or more in the mess that is called the M50 to arrive at the f***ing disaster that is Dublin airport?
Oh and if do happen to live beside one of the couple of railway lines, the line ends in Heuston station, there is no link to the airport.
Driving to Cork is not an option either for lots of people.

I feel your pain man! I wouldn't want to drag my ass to Dublin either! But like I said, if LHR-SNN is viable, then it's up to the Shannon bosses to get another airline in there to mop up all those big, juicy profits. Assuming they do their job, then you'll be happy right?

You must admit though that it is not AL's responsibility to provide a service from LHR-SNN?

jmayo wrote:

I have visited many airports around the world and Dublin ranks highly among them as being one of the worse. Now of course I haven't visited Africa so maybe Dar es Salaam, Kinshasa or Nariobi are better or worse?
Maybe you can answer that?

Interestingly, I do travel to sub-Saharan Africa several times a year. Jo'Burg airport is much better than Dublin with massive investment going into it ahead of the World Cup 2010 (it's still no Frankfurt or CDG though). The other places you mention...I'd give Dublin the nod any day . I still have nightmares about Lagos...

But this is totally irrelevant to the discussion here.

jmayo wrote:

As pointed out by that eejit O'Dea this morning, if they pull the LHR slots for Shannon routes what is to stop them from doing so from Cork and then Dublin.
Tell you what, I think people that do not live in the capital or it's sprawling surrounds, should start a campaign that AL now change their LHR slots from Dublin to other European destinations and dump Dublin routes altogether. After all that may be more profitable for the shareholders and that is what matters.

Nothing will or should stop AL from dumping all its Irish routes in the morning if they felt they could better maximise shareholder value elsewhere.

There's your answer. Happy? We are all in the same boat as regards provision of air routes i.e. dependent on market forces. There is no such thing as 'should' or 'deserve' any more when it comes to provision of same.

If you want to do something constructive, get onto the management of Shannon airport and start asking them what they are doing to fill the gap instead of whining and moaning about the unfairness of it all or badgering your elected officials about something they have no power over (or should). That's where you should be looking imo. Best of luck.

Villain

The funny thing is the Government siad they had to privatise AL because they couldn't invest any more money in it and if they didn't invest more money that AL could suffer badly and the company may not survive so they decided to give up our National carrier to save it and therfore save the Dublin, Cork and Shannon routes.

But now that they have they may lose the routes anyway as jmayo says if it makes commercial sense for AL to move the Dublins routes to another european country whats there to stop them.

What was the point in keeping a 25% share if they are not willing to use that share to make management change their mind and protect the national interest?

therecklessone

Liam Byrne wrote:

PLUS: Aer Lingus' decision cannot be justified on a commercial basis; going from a profit-making, uncontested route to one on which they will at least have to compete with serious competitors in a market where they are barely known.

75% of traffic on the SNN-LHR route does not transfer to other services at LHR, therefore Aer Lingus do face competition on the Shannon-London (all airports) route from Ryanair. Significant competition at that, with Ryanair benefiting from an advantageous landing charges agreement with the SAA, such that it places downward pressure on Aer Lingus prices to remain competitive.

Profit margins on DUB-LHR are four times higher than on SNN-LHR for Aer Lingus, with the difference of service charges playing a huge part.

Villain

therecklessone wrote:

75% of traffic on the SNN-LHR route does not transfer to other services at LHR, therefore Aer Lingus do face competition on the Shannon-London (all airports) route from Ryanair. Significant competition at that, with Ryanair benefiting from an advantageous landing charges agreement with the SAA, such that it places downward pressure on Aer Lingus prices to remain competitive.

Profit margins on DUB-LHR are four times higher than on SNN-LHR for Aer Lingus, with the difference of service charges playing a huge part.

Sorry but that statisic is complete bull Aer Lingus are no longer a member of the One World club so they don't know if 75% of traffic does not transfer to other services.

therecklessone

irish1 wrote:

Actually I think he answered that quite well I believe he said why replace a profitable route with one that may or may not be profitable especially seeing as Shannon have said they will cut costs to make the route even more profitable for Aer Lingus.

O'Leary is primarily motivated by concern for his own airline's plans.

Ryanair are expanding operations at Belfast City airport, so forcing an Aer Lingus climb down on the LHR slots suits him. Retarding growth at Aer Lingus suits him even more.

He's also been clever by suggesting that Aer Lingus use its new Gatwick slots to launch a Belfast-Gatwick route, and leave the LHR slots with SNN. Very clever, creating competition for Easyjet from Aldergrove to Gatwick while removing potential competition for his own airline from Aer Lingus on the Dublin-Gatwick route.

He's been supremely clever by suggesting he works with the government (who he continually mocks) and the unions (though he won't work with unions at his own airline) to force a rethink from Aer Lingus.

Very clever indeed.

therecklessone

irish1 wrote:

Sorry but that statisic is complete bull Aer Lingus are no longer a member of the One World club so they don't know if 75% of traffic does not transfer to other services.

I suggest you take that up with Gabrielle Monaghan and Brian Carey of the Sunday Times then.

Better still, provide your own source.

El Stuntman

therecklessone wrote:

O'Leary is primarily motivated by concern for his own airline's plans.

Ryanair are expanding operations at Belfast City airport, so forcing an Aer Lingus climb down on the LHR slots suits him. Retarding growth at Aer Lingus suits him even more.

He's also been clever by suggesting that Aer Lingus use its new Gatwick slots to launch a Belfast-Gatwick route, and leave the LHR slots with SNN. Very clever, creating competition for Easyjet from Aldergrove to Gatwick while removing potential competition for his own airline from Aer Lingus on the Dublin-Gatwick route.

He's been supremely clever by suggesting he works with the government (who he continually mocks) and the unions (though he won't work with unions at his own airline) to force a rethink from Aer Lingus.

Very clever indeed.

like I said, let Mick have Aer Lingus

he's only going to kill them off anyway

irish1

irish1 wrote:

Sorry but that statisic is complete bull Aer Lingus are no longer a member of the One World club so they don't know if 75% of traffic does not transfer to other services.

They'd have a fair idea actually as any booking made on a website like for example ebookers or any travelagent would be on the same PNR.
EI only left one world on april 1st so their statistics regarding one world traffic would be accurate as thats only 4 months ago.
Also EI has code share agreements with practically all the one world members now and with more airlines than ever before.
So in truth,they're even more clued in than ever.

Villain

I travelled to China with BA but got an Aer Lingus flight to Heathrow how would they have known I was transferring to BA once they have left the One World alliance.

Oh and you are more likely to die falling out of bed than on an airplane.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

I travelled to China with BA but got an Aer Lingus flight to Heathrow how would they have known I was transferring to BA once they have left the One World alliance.

Depends on how you bought your ticket.
If you bought the EI ticket separately,they wouldn't know directly but LHR would have a record of your transit.
Most people though on connecting flights as I said earlier are on the same PNR (passenger numerical record) so the flights are linked.
EI do have a codeshare agreement with BA.

That said I don't think passenger habits would have changed suffeciently in the last 3 months for their one world statistics to be out of date.

OK

The tangent of 16 posts has been moved to commuting and transport :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055136080

Please stay on topic here.

The next off topic post will be deleted on sight.

Thank you for your co operation.

mike65

The government speaks!

A statement has just been issued stating that while the govenment is disapointed at the decision it will not seek to interveen in the policy of Aer Lingus management.

Mike.

J.S. Pill

El Stuntman wrote:

You must admit though that it is not AL's responsibility to provide a service from LHR-SNN?...

...Nothing will or should stop AL from dumping all its Irish routes in the morning if they felt they could better maximise shareholder value elsewhere...

...We are all in the same boat as regards provision of air routes i.e. dependent on market forces. There is no such thing as 'should' or 'deserve' any more when it comes to provision of same...

This is just question begging. I don't think anyone here is really disputing the commercial sense of the AL's decision to maximise the profit on its limited LHR slots but the whole question is how much should other stakeholder's interests be taken into account - there's the 'should' part.

If we're talking about the vagaries of the market then why not view all this through a market failure lens. The ostensible reason for keeping a 25% stake in AL was to make sure market failures like this didn't happen - It turns out this was all smoke and mirrors and that's my main beef.

El Stuntman wrote:

If you want to do something constructive, get onto the management of Shannon airport and start asking them what they are doing to fill the gap instead of whining and moaning about the unfairness of it all or badgering your elected officials about something they have no power over (or should). That's where you should be looking imo. Best of luck.

I sincerely hope the gap is filled - AL would be able to expand in Belfast, the new airline would make a profit, (nearly) everyone's happy - but we have to ask if any airline would be willing to use a precious LHR landing slot for the likes of Shannon. And even if it did, there would be a question mark over how long they would stay. It may be profitable yes but is it the most profitable option is the question. This is an absolutely crucial question and if the prospects for this aren't good then I think the government is completely justified in intervening by any means necessary (sorry Malcom X...). Of course whether they're arsed is another question.

Schuhart

mike65 wrote:

A statement has just been issued stating that while the govenment is disapointed at the decision it will not seek to interveen in the policy of Aer Lingus management.

The statement is up on the Government website.

Speaking on behalf of the Government, Minister Mary Hanafin T.D. said “In 2005 the Government took the decision to float Aer Lingus. This decision was taken in order to enable the airline to grow and compete effectively in a highly competitive aviation market. Ireland’s interests are best served by dynamic competition, with Aer Lingus as a strong player.

As a listed plc, Aer Lingus has to take it own decisions. It is inappropriate for the Government to intervene in the decision making of a private company. To do so would ultimately be damaging to the company and its customers.

I have to say I agree that Ireland’s interests (as distinct from the Shannon lobby) are better served by ‘dynamic competition, with Aer Lingus as a strong player’ than by an airline that has to take instruction from Willie O’Dea.

Villain

Prime Time dealing with this at the moment, Mannion was shown a clip of him last year before the flotation shown where he said the Government would hold a significant share holding which it could use to block significant decisions!! He didn't look too happy when the camera came back. Tony Killeen seemed to think that Legal issues would block this decision before the EGM.

If the Government isn't going to use their 25% shareholding to block this decision in the national decision should they just sell the shares and use the money to do something useful with it?

mike65

Facinating. First the government might actually be sticking to its guns (shocker) but it also leaves the Minister For Shannon Airport high and dry.

Can't wait for O'Deas response, he may need to take a holliday.

Mike.

Liam Byrne

mike65 wrote:

Facinating. First the government might actually be sticking to its guns

.....although they are completely different guns from the ones listed in their promises ?

Don't think that quite counts as "sticking to its guns" :mad:

irish1

irish1 wrote:

If the Government isn't going to use their 25% shareholding to block this decision in the national decision should they just sell the shares and use the money to do something useful with it?

I see Ryanair bought a further 3% yesterday(handy that the price was down) and now own 28% and are a bigger shareholder than the government.

jmayo

So I see Dermot Ahern (no not the ahern that is our leader) was now pushed out to back up what Hanaffin stated yesterday. It really shows how our country is led, they probably drew straws to see who would poke their head out and give Willie the bad news.
It shows how much back bone they have, they belatedly come out to state the official position a week later. Dempsey made a statement last week and appears to have gone to ground since then. I thought he was minister for transport or does that only apply to Meath and bypasses.

Where is Bertie? Willie seeks him here, he seeks him there, oh the illusive Bertie ... and the poor out on a limb Willie.

Looking at only positives coming out of this for the Mid-West:
- people might finally cop on to what a useless shower of w****** they have representing them and kick wee willie et al to touch next time out.
- the SAA might get kick in ar** they deserve and drop costs
We live in hope.

It still doesn't help the passengers who will have to drag their asses around London or even worse around this country's screwball road infrastructure.

Villain

Radio One just had a Clare reporter on who said they is talk in Shannon that Mannion will anounce something for the airport which may be that one of the Heathrow slots that is leased out will come back to Shannon next year but this is only speculation at the minute.

It will be interesting to see what Willie says after the meeting will he jump back in line with his fellow ministers or continue this solo run within the Cabinet.

It happens in every constituency.
If theres bad news,the government t.d will speak out against it even if it's percieved to be the governments fault.

If they give them one of the leased slots,then thats the answer.
Just put a bigger plane on it.
You can be pretty sure that a phonecall from Bertie arranged that if it happens.
Pragmatism wins.
No back down from anybody.

Villain

I'm not sure one slot in the not so near future will keep the West happy though

mike65

They could retrive the slot from Continantal and then move a slot each from Cork and Dublin

Willie O'Dea just on the news saying resignation would'nt do his income erm constituents any good.

Mike.

Villain

Well if they don't get slots into Heathrow I think Willie O'Dea has no option but to resign.

is_that_so

Yet another journalist, David Learmont , pointing out what some here have already suggested. It is also interesting that he highlights the negative aspect of using Heathrow as a hub.
He can be heard here. Click on the David Learmont link. When this is all resolved, as someone has already said it will be SAA who have some explaining to do.

On the political front FF have finally woken up. Both Hanafin and Dermot Ahern are a safe pair of hands and have enough respect to be listened to. It still begs the question why they wheeled or pushed out the impotent Dempsey first and why they let O'Dea loose for over a week before doing anything. IMO it does not augur well at all for the next five or so years when we may have some genuine difficult decisions to make.

Liam Byrne

irish1 wrote:

Well if they don't get slots into Heathrow I think Willie O'Dea has no option but to resign.

I can see where you're coming from, and I fully accept that Willie's stance might be no more than vacuous soundbites, but there are two issues:

1) If he can't represent the Mid-West or influence the Government, what's the point in having him

OR IS IT

2) If Bertie is too thick/arrogant to listen to someone who is voicing the opinon of at least a third of the country (maybe even more after the Irish Examiner broke the news of what Aer Lingus were going to do to Cork) then maybe it is Bertie that should resign.

Still, this is the same Bertie that looked after his back-yard and his ego so much that the FAI lost out on having their own stadium.... :rolleyes:

There was a Clare TD on the radio earlier and I've never heard someone bypass or twist a question as blatantly......he was asked if he supported Willie's stance that, if required, the Government should run with the EGM idea; he feigned ignorance, saying that all he'd heard Willie say was that there were lots of issues that might arise if the EGM route was taken (true, I guess)......the reporter re-asked if that was his view, and the TD answered his own point (not the reporter's original question) saying "yes, it is my view that an EGM might do more harm than good"......

I know some would view this as excellent politics, but I think it's just pure ****e.....I won't mention the TD, but I've heard him 3 or 4 times this week and he definitely seems to be more interested in sitting on the fence and protecting his arse than representing the people of the Mid-West.

Guess we get who we [collectively - I'm not in that "we" as I knew that FF are self-interested, passive gob****es] vote for.......