Breaking filter lights: Ignorance or Deliberate

mikemac

Around my area most junctions have filter lights and pedestrian crossings.
So it often happens the "ahead" arrow comes on so you can drive straight on but you can't drive left or right as a pedestrian light is activated so you have to wait.

To put it simply: Filter light equals green light but in some directions only.

Many times I've walked across a junction with green man on and see a car swing around the corner and look at me like a fool for being on the road.

Or what's worse if the ahead filter light is on and you're waiting for the signal to drive around your corner then people behind beep and swear as you are holding them up. But to drive on is the equivalent of breaking a red light.

Is it lack of education or is it people trying to save time?

Anan1

My guess is that it's a mixture of inattention and ignorance. Although road & light layout may play a part. I very rarely see it in general, but there is one junction (Blackrock bypass & Monkstown Road) where it happens quite a bit.

Wishbone Ash

And on a similar topic I often have to wait behind a driver who insists on waiting for a 'right turn' filter light to appear in conjunction with the normal green light even when there is no traffic coming from the opposite direction.

Anan1

Wishbone Ash wrote:

And on a similar topic I often have to wait behind a driver who insists on waiting for a 'right turn' filter light to appear in conjunction with the normal green light even when there is no traffic coming from the opposite direction.

Is there no horn on your car?;)

Wishbone Ash

Anan1 wrote:

Is there no horn on your car?;)

I'm usually a patient driver.

(Using the horn tends to be futile if the offending motorist doesn't understand the message being conveyed. They merely throw their hands in the air and point at the lights or will presume that the driver using the horn is impatient/rude etc.)

Anan1

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I'm usually a patient driver.

(Using the horn tends to be futile if the offending motorist doesn't understand the message being conveyed. They merely throw their hands in the air and point at the lights or will presume that the driver using the horn is impatient/rude etc.)

I'm not suggesting really going to town on the horn, but a short bip will at least make them think. At this point, any passengers may also say something to them. Remember, you have an obligation to the cars behind you too.;)

cormie

Another post in another thread said before that if there is no red light on a right/left filter and a straight ahead filter is green, that it's still ok to go left/right, that you only have to wait for the left/right filter if it's got a red light too and doesn't use the same red light as the straight ahead filter.

The post was never backed up with evidence that this was correct though.

Anan1

cormie wrote:

Another post in another thread said before that if there is no red light on a right/left filter and a straight ahead filter is green, that it's still ok to go left/right, that you only have to wait for the left/right filter if it's got a red light too and doesn't use the same red light as the straight ahead filter.

The post was never backed up with evidence that this was correct though.

Who said that? And where?

cormie

I forget, a boards user on a motor forum thread, narrows it down:o

Wishbone Ash

cormie wrote:

Another post in another thread said before that if there is no red light on a right/left filter and a straight ahead filter is green, that it's still ok to go left/right, that you only have to wait for the left/right filter if it's got a red light too and doesn't use the same red light as the straight ahead filter

AFAIK green direction arrows are always displayed in conjunction with a red light. A green 'straight ahead' arrow therefore means that you may proceed in that direction only.

cormie

Wishbone Ash wrote:

AFAIK green direction arrows are always displayed in conjunction with a red light. A green 'straight ahead' arrow therefore means that you may proceed in that direction only.

Most filter lights I come across don't have their own red light though?

[o]
[o]
COLOR="Lime"]o[/COLOR[>]

That to me would be the most common, meaning you can go right if safe to do so.

[o]
[o]
COLOR="Lime"]^[/COLOR[>]

the other poster was saying this also means you can go right but this:

[o]COLOR="Red"]o[/COLOR
[o][o]
COLOR="Lime"]^[/COLOR[>]

means you can't.

Kadeshh

:mad:



if the right green smiley is the filter light(on or not) and the red smiley is not on then you can proceed if the way is clear, however if there are two sets of red lights controling the straight on lane and the turn right lane as such

:mad: :mad:



the same situation except that if the right hand red smiley is on even if the straight ahead green smiley is on then you cant turn until the right hand green smiley goes on.

cormie

Kadeshh wrote:

:mad:



if the right green smiley is the filter light(on or not) and the red smiley is not on then you can proceed if the way is clear, however if there are two sets of red lights controling the straight on lane and the turn right lane as such

:mad: :mad:



the same situation except that if the right hand red smiley is on even if the straight ahead green smiley is on then you cant turn until the right hand green smiley goes on.

aye, but if the straight ahead green is on, without a right red, what's the story? Smilies are too confusing, lol... use my method;)

Kadeshh

cormie wrote:

aye, but if the straight ahead green is on, without a right red, what's the story?

then you're good to go as long as no traffic coming

Wishbone Ash

cormie wrote:

but if the straight ahead green is on, without a right red, what's the story?

Can you get a green 'straight ahead' arrow without a red light though? I didn't think so but I'm open to correction.

cormie

Kadeshh wrote:

then you're good to go as long as no traffic coming

So you're saying it's ok to go right here even though the right filter isn't green?

[o]
[o]
COLOR="Lime"]^[/COLOR[>]

Kadeshh

cormie wrote:

So you're saying it's ok to go right here even though the right filter isn't green?

[o]
[o]
COLOR="Lime"]^[/COLOR[>]

yes EDIT: NO

[o]
[o]
COLOR="Lime"]^[/COLOR[>]

not ok

COLOR="Red"]o[/COLOR
[o]
[^]COLOR="Lime"]>[/COLOR

ok

[o]COLOR="Red"]o[/COLOR
[o][o]
COLOR="Lime"]^[/COLOR[>]

not ok

ballooba

Check out the filter to turn on to Alfie Byrne Road from the Coast Road. Who has the patience for that?

cormie

I only thought

[o]
[o]
COLOR="Lime"]o[/COLOR[>]

and

[o]
[o]
COLOR="Lime"]o[/COLORCOLOR="Lime"]>[/COLOR

were ok to go right, can you point out anywhere it says

[o]
[o]
COLOR="Lime"]^[/COLOR[>]

is ok too please? Don't want to be done for breaking a law because I followed advice on the net:p

Spit62500

And when there's no red light above the filter light its also ok to move into the correct position while waiting to turn right (if there's oncoming traffic for instance). A lot of people these days seem to think that they should wait behind the white line and not position themselves correctly. Some filter arrows only come on with every second cycle of the lights in off peak hours but there are people who are happy to wait behind the white line until the green arrow eventually appears second time around. :eek:

Kadeshh

[o]
[o]
COLOR="Lime"]^[/COLOR[>]

is ok too please? Don't want to be done for breaking a law because I followed advice on the net:p[/QUOTE]

ah ok, apoligies after looking at that diagram properly and seeing that if there is a directional arrow for straight ahead rather then a green cirlce then you cannot turn right until the right arrow turns grren.

sorry, i've just gone and confused everything now...

cormie

haha, ah yeah, I knew about the circle light before I started driving;)

can anyone point out anywhere it says whether this:

[o]
[o]
COLOR="PaleGreen"]^[/COLOR[>]

is ok/not ok to go right?

Wishbone Ash

cormie wrote:

haha, ah yeah, I knew about the circle light before I started driving;)

can anyone point out anywhere it says whether this:

[o]
[o]
COLOR="PaleGreen"]^[/COLOR[>]

is ok/not ok to go right?

Rules of the Road: Page 83

"A green arrow means that you may move on in the direction of the arrow, assuming it is safe and the way is clear, even if a red light is also showing"

Mr. Presentable

http://www.irishmotoring.ie/cms/publish/car/rulesoftheroad/8_Traffic_lights_and_signals.php


"A green arrow means you can move on in the direction of the arrow....."


Edit: What Wishbone Ash said.

cormie

Ok, that's what I thought it was anyway until the poster in the other thread who brought it up seemed pretty certain it was ok to go right here:

[o]
[o]
COLOR="lime"]^[/COLOR[>]

Pherekydes

cormie wrote:

Ok, that's what I thought it was anyway until the poster in the other thread who brought it up seemed pretty certain it was ok to go right here:

[o]
[o]
COLOR="lime"]^[/COLOR[>]

This is good to go. If the filter light (on or off) has no red above it you can turn, providing it is safe to do so.

The filter light comes on when oncoming traffic has a red. If the filter is not on, but there is no red, then the oncoming traffic has green, so you must yield to them before making your turn.

cormie

Slow coach wrote:

This is good to go. If the filter light (on or off) has no red above it you can turn, providing it is safe to do so.

The filter light comes on when oncoming traffic has a red. If the filter is not on, but there is no red, then the oncoming traffic has green, so you must yield to them before making your turn.

But would that not contradict:

"A green arrow means that you may move on in the direction of the arrow, assuming it is safe and the way is clear, even if a red light is also showing"

so, for turning right, no green arrow, no go? Doesn't seem to be shown anywhere in the ROTR unless somebody can point it out somewhere

Pherekydes

cormie wrote:

But would that not contradict:

"A green arrow means that you may move on in the direction of the arrow, assuming it is safe and the way is clear, even if a red light is also showing"

No.

This is from the ROTR 2007, page 83:

You should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn before the filter light appears.

cormie

Slow coach wrote:

No.

This is from the ROTR 2007, page 83:

That's what I was looking for:) Cool so to sum it up:

[o]
[o]
COLOR="Lime"]^[/COLOR[>]

is ok because "A green arrow means that you may move on in the direction of the arrow, assuming it is safe and the way is clear, even if a red light is also showing but you should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn before the filter light appears."

aye?

Pherekydes

cormie wrote:

That's what I was looking for:) Cool so to sum it up:

[o]
[o]
COLOR="Lime"]^[/COLOR[>]

is ok because "A green arrow means that you may move on in the direction of the arrow, assuming it is safe and the way is clear, even if a red light is also showing but you should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn before the filter light appears."

aye?

That's the way I'm standing under it anyway.

Revelation Joe

Are the two clauses presented continuously in the RotR?
I would not turn right if there was only an 'ahead' filter lit.
[o]
[o]
COLOR="Lime"]^[/COLOR[>]
To me, this would suggest that traffic coming the other way would have a green, so you would be turning across them e.g juction at Longford Arms Hotel, heading up Main Street towards Dublin Street.

BrianD3

I have never seen a straight ahead green arrow come on without at least one other light being lit at the same time eg you'll have a left green arrow and/or a right green arrow. And if you are not allowed to turn right a red circle will be on

edit: I probably have seen instances where a straight ahead arrow only came on but only at junctions where there was only one possible direction of travel - eg there is a one way street to your left and nothing to your right. Once the traffic joining from the one way street gets a red light, you get a straight ahead arrow or a green circle (the arrow would probably be more appropriate than the circle in this case). Another example could be a junction where there is no right turn allowed at any time.

Also, have never seen a junction where traffic going straight gets a green arrow and traffic turning left gets a red circle.

cast_iron

[o]
[o]
COLOR=lime]^[/COLOR[>]
The problem with this setup is it doesn't make any sense to have a light like this. I don't recall seeing any of these, none that I noted anyway. Any examples?

To be allowed go right if safe to do so, the light setup should be like:
[o]
[o]
COLOR=lime]o[/COLOR[>]
(the filter light kick in purely to show the traffic ahead has a red light)

Therefore I would say
[o]
[o]
COLOR=lime]^[/COLOR[>]
is an incorrect setup but does not allow you turn right unless the right arrow is lit.


To prevent people turning right, this should be used (eg. Stillorgan DC):
[o][o]
[o][o]
COLOR=lime]^[/COLOR[>]


I think the ROTR refers to situations where a solid green is used as opposed to a straight ahead green arrow. If the ROTR doesn't explain it, how is one expected to know what to do.

cormie

I was thinking about this when out driving just there. As far as I can think, there should never be a situation where there is a straight ahead arrow only lit if it is ok to turn right without a right filter light green. If it was ok to turn right, then the straight ahead arrow should be replaced with a normal green circle light. So I'm now thinking again, that:

[o]
[o]
COLOR="Lime"]^[/COLOR[>]

means only straight ahead.

Saruman

A couple of examples of this. The liffey vally turn coming from palmerstown, opposite the gym.
The light is a green arrow heading straight ahead and a right hand green arrow comes on later. Its usually safe to go but only some people will do it leaving a load of traffic waiting to turn. Now at this junction i believe there is a pedestian light which is green while the arrow is not showing, however the pedestrian light i think goes out long before the green arrow appears to turn right.

Another example is on the N3 in Finglas/Glasnevin. If facing town and you want to turn right. Cant think of the road but its the one after the hotel and before the Dublin industrial estate turn. Anyway the lights there used to allow you to turn on green and you had a filter light. They were then changed to the new LED ones and now its a straight ahead only with a right hand filter light. However there is no pedestrian light crossing the junction as far as i remember and usually its safe to turn long before the green light.

I think a lot of the driver frustration and inconsistency comes from the fact that nothing is consistent or makes sense here. Traffic signals can be useless, speed limits all wrong with no logic behind them. So drivers feel they have to make it up as they go along and pick and choose what rules to break/obey.

MrPudding

cormie wrote:

I was thinking about this when out driving just there. As far as I can think, there should never be a situation where there is a straight ahead arrow only lit if it is ok to turn right without a right filter light green. If it was ok to turn right, then the straight ahead arrow should be replaced with a normal green circle light. So I'm now thinking again, that:

[o]
[o]
COLOR="Lime"]^[/COLOR[>]

means only straight ahead.

But in this case there should be 2 sets of light, ie, the right filterlight should have it's own amber and red.

I cannot recall any lights that have an arrow for straight ahead and right turn but only one red and amber. I believe cast_iron's 2nd and 4th examples are correct.

So, I reckon that where you have a set of lights where there is a right filter you can turn right, even when the filter light is not green, but the main light is, like in this example:

[o]
[o]
COLOR="Lime"]o[/COLOR[>]

I have seen many drivers in Dublin turn right, or I ave received horn blasts when the lights are like this:

[o]COLOR="Red"]o[/COLOR
[o][o]
COLOR="Lime"]^[/COLOR[>]

In this case it is not ok to turn right. I reckon most people that turn right in cases like this do so knowing full well they should not. The light is very obviously red and, though the standard of driver training in Ireland is sh1t, I think most people know red means stop.

MrP

cormie

I must keep an eye out. I'm sure I've seen a straight ahead arrow with amber and red above it with a right filter arrow beside it, without red or amber above it. Maybe I haven't, but I'll keep an eye out:)

So basically, it's cast irons 2nd and 4th, or nothing, he forgot to put a red circle in example 4 though.

John R

cormie wrote:

I was thinking about this when out driving just there. As far as I can think, there should never be a situation where there is a straight ahead arrow only lit if it is ok to turn right without a right filter light green. If it was ok to turn right, then the straight ahead arrow should be replaced with a normal green circle light. So I'm now thinking again, that:

[o]
[o]
COLOR="Lime"]^[/COLOR[>]

means only straight ahead.

What that light setup actually means is: The idiots in the traffic department who put up the lights are incompetent.

That light should not exist, it should be either a solid green with filter or a forward green with red and amber for the filter.

There are examples of this light setup though, I can't recall where but I noticed one a few months ago in Dublin.

Wishbone Ash

BrianD3 wrote:

have never seen a junction where traffic going straight gets a green arrow and traffic turning left gets a red circle.

cast_iron wrote:

[o]
[o]
[^][>]
The problem with this setup is it doesn't make any sense to have a light like this. I don't recall seeing any of these, none that I noted anyway. Any examples?

Agree. I've tried to explain that 20 posts ago!

Alun

John R wrote:

What that light setup actually means is: The idiots in the traffic department who put up the lights are incompetent.

That light should not exist, it should be either a solid green with filter or a forward green with red and amber for the filter.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that when I read the first few posts of this thread. It makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever, and whoever 'designed' that light should be shot.