Crisis of no faith?

Ickle Magoo

I would consider myself a life-long atheist who has never had any beliefs in a God or omnipotent being - in fact I've been quite resolute for many years that no such thing exists.

Recently I had a dream in which I died in the presence of my grown-up children (they are babies at the mo) & it made me realise I've never really thought about the reality of death & my own mortality & it got me wondering what happens after death. I suddenly found my previous thinking that we just die & rot away fairly depressing.

I still have no exact feelings either way with regards to religion or "God" but I don't feel quite as sure as I used to...does anyone else have periodic doubts about their atheism & dip a toe into agnosticism?

Zillah

As Dawkins is very fond of pointing out, no matter how much you want there to be a God that does not alter whether he exists or not.

How could you realising that death really does mean you actually die forever alter belief in God?

It might make you want an afterlife more, but it'd be fairly crazy to use that as a reason to go Agnostic.

Ickle Magoo

I'm not "going agnostic" & certainly not just because of the one example that made me consider that I mention, lol. I just am not as ressolute that I am absolutely right that there is no God, no afterlife, nothing as I once was & was curious if anyone else sometimes feels that way.

Thinking that there's nothing after death doesn't sound so bad to me
In any case, my beliefs don't tend to change on it, no, sorry!

Dades

It's definitely not the happiest thought - just dying and rotting away. Which is one the major reasons so many people are willing to believe something so, well, unbelievable.

It's only human to want to think just maybe there's more to life - even as an atheist.

Scofflaw

Ickle Magoo wrote:

I'm not "going agnostic" & certainly not just because of the one example that made me consider that I mention, lol. I just am not as ressolute that I am absolutely right that there is no God, no afterlife, nothing as I once was & was curious if anyone else sometimes feels that way.

Sure. Frankly, I think it's the having kids that does it. The contemplation of one's own death is really easy, but the thought of leaving your children behind is a whole different ballgame, as is the thought of them dying. I find I usually wobble in the direction of Buddhism at such times.

However, as Zillah says, the sum of all our fears and desires will not change so much as an atom, and what we want will not change what is true. There's nothing to do but grit one's teeth and hang in there.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Scofflaw wrote:

I find I usually wobble in the direction of Buddhism at such times.

Certainly not a bad thing

5uspect

There's nothing wrong in hoping that there is something more to death but I don't subscribe to any beliefs on the matter.

Beruthiel

Ickle Magoo wrote:

I suddenly found my previous thinking that we just die & rot away fairly depressing.

Nobody said this life of ours was perfect. There's not many human beings out there that look forward to death, but that doesn't mean we should make stuff up just to feel better about it.
Does the reality of the situation not focus you on the here and now more? Live for today and enjoy your kids and life.
If we get to be happy for the five seconds we exist in this universe, that's a great plus. It's a gift you came to be here in the first place, enjoy it and worry not about death, after all being dead means you get not to be depressed about it anymore.

Ickle Magoo

Very true, very true. Thanks for all your comments - and for not thinking I'm an idiot. I'm not great at expressing what I mean.

I think Scofflaw cordially summed it up when he said it had to do with becoming a parent...the thought of never seeing them again, or seeing grandchildren, the thought of closing my eyes one day & ceasing to be is a scary one - but as Zillah points out, not one I can justify pretending to believe in heaven for - and as you point out Beruthiel, when it happens I won't give a monkeys, lol.

I do live very much for the day. I had a chat to my MIL about this & she laughed & said "Well, I guess we'll find out who's right eventually"...

I thought, good grief...what if we're wrong?! :eek:

MooseJam

being dead is cool, very peacefull, anybody who has been under anesthetics has been in the same situation as death ie the brain switched off

Ickle Magoo

Is not only cool because we came back & were therefor able to comprehend how cool thinking/doing/being nothing was...? The big sleep for ever more & never again comprehending anything is a bit more scary, to me anyway.

MooseJam

It's scary if you think of dead as being a condition, oh no I'm going to be dead for ever and ever. It's not actually a condition ! your life is from birth to death and thats it, you aren't actually dead if you get my meaning

Ickle Magoo

Of course, I won't actually be aware...to use your other analogy; like worrying about an operation when I'm anesthetised throughout...it's a very good way of looking at it, MooseJam.

I just can't believe I never thought about this sh!t before! :o:o

The Mad Hatter

Dunno, death - actual permanent death - doesn't scare me as much as being forgotten. Don't know why that is.

Scofflaw

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Of course, I won't actually be aware...to use your other analogy; like worrying about an operation when I'm anesthetised throughout...it's a very good way of looking at it, MooseJam.

I just can't believe I never thought about this sh!t before! :o:o

Most people don't, I don't think, until they have kids - or are about 30. The number of people to whom their own mortality appears to come as a complete revelation constantly amazes me - after all, the death rate remains steady at 100%.

cordially,
Scofflaw

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Ickle Magoo

Scofflaw wrote:

Most people don't, I don't think, until they have kids - or are about 30. The number of people to whom their own mortality appears to come as a complete revelation constantly amazes me - after all, the death rate remains steady at 100%.

cordially,
Scofflaw

2 out of 2 & I take back my comment re not thinking I'm an idiot, lol.

lookinforpicnic

Beruthiel wrote:

It's a gift you came to be here in the first place, enjoy it and worry not about death

Yeah when I used to think of non-existence (just like before we were born) i used to take solace in the fact: at least i wasn't born as a worm or some other creature, I'm very lucky indeed I used to think.

Today I don't take much solace in that fact though, as born as some creature or being lucky to come into existence doesn't make much sense, as it implies (in the case of animal) a kind of injection of some intrinsic soulstuff that is you or (in the case of being lucky) that 'you' were somehow picked from some endless waiting list to enter a body. Today when i think of death, first off i just get annoyed, then i think better make the most of every day, and then sometimes I get distracted by thinking about what exactly will be gone but a shifting protaganist of a novel that is my life...I hope it makes a good read!

What never, never happens though are thoughts of religious fairytales.

Zillah

I like to imagine then when I die it'd be something incredibly unexpected. Like, a ton block of ice landing on me from the sky. If that happens then I'll be happy and living one instant and then just gone. I won't even have the instant to realise I'm about to die. Seems almost like cheating really

There's nothing wrong with hoping for something else. I truly do hope that when I die I won't cease to exist, it'd be cool if there was some greater existence in which my sentience will continue. But no matter how much I might like that, it doesn't change the fact that it is so incredible unlikely that believing in it is impossible for me. And I suspect that will never change.

All that said, I think there is a certain fairness to absolute oblivion. No after life I can imagine would be fair to everyone. With annhilation comes a certain balance. No matter how evil someone was, no matter how selfish and monstrous, they will simply cease to exist. And no matter how unhappy someone was, no matter how badly treated or bullied or robbed of freedom, they too will vanish. In the end no one can gloat or cry or regret, the universe belongs to the living.

You can tell I've been at the wine...

biko

Ickle Magoo wrote:

I suddenly found my previous thinking that we just die & rot away fairly depressing.

Why (in gods name ;-) ? Be happy now with your kids and enjoy life while it lasts. Even if you dip into "life after death" for some reason you still don't believe in hell, do you?

Ickle Magoo

I am very happy with my kids & I do very much enjoy life...I didn't realise having the odd reflection about belief, faith, life, death, etc were a sign that I wasn't?

I don't believe in hell, no. I'm obviously not phrasing things well at all. I think the nail was hit on the head by the person who said it would be nice to think there was more but that doesn't mean we believe there is...maybe I got a bit confused at the difference between wanting & believing?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Pascal's Wager ftw

Ickle Magoo

Just Wiki'd that - thanks Sean_K that makes for facinating reading. :cool:

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Yea, Blaise was quite a chap, it certainly gave me food for thought when I first read about it, but that's probably just because i'm a cynical git;)

Hivemind187

Personally I find the idea of an afterlife to be more upsetting than oblivion.

Consider that with the total cessation of all faculties you will have long since ceased to be aware of anything and by extension will be incapable of feelings towards it.

With the concept of an afterlife you then have to worry about whether or not your friends, families etc will be joining you, what you are going to do to entertain yourself for eternity, trying to explain why you were part of the WRONG religion (or held no particular beliefs) or suffering eternal tortures and damnation in hell.

In the realest sense eternal life comes from procreation (thus allow your genetic structure to be continued for an extended period of time) and through fullfillment of the ego - achieving enough and being happy enough in life that you are remembered by others after your demise.

True you wont be around to enjoy either of them but they are at least somethign tangible you can do in order to continue in some fashion after shuffling off.

Myksyk

I've always viewed my eventual death in a sort of highly bemused manner with strong feelings of anticipatory loss. I think this is entirely normal. I like my life, the people in it, the work I do, the interests I have and I'm not sure what it would say about me if I wasn't sad at the prospect of losing all that. But so be it ... it helps in making the most of it all while it's here.

Zombrex

I don't like thinking of death (thinking about what it would be "like" to not exist causes my brain to do a divide by zero error, since it won't be like anything)

And I sincerely hope there is some form of an after life.

But I don't believe there is. Anyone who claims there is is simply deluding themselves to make themselves feel better (not that there is anything wrong with that)

If there is I will find out when I die. At the end of the day I'm going to die, so there isn't a whole lot of point in worrying about it now, I can't stop that from happening.

I'll die when I die. Instead of worrying about dead I find it far more productive to worry about life

Zillah

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Just Wiki'd that - thanks Sean_K that makes for facinating reading. :cool:

No no! Its awful! Pascal's Wager is a retarded fallaccy! It begins by pre-supposing that one can choose to believe something, which is not true. One can delude oneself, but thats very different.

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote:

But I don't believe there is. Anyone who claims there is is simply deluding themselves to make themselves feel better (not that there is anything wrong with that)

Do you think I'm deluding myself?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Zillah wrote:

No no! Its awful! Pascal's Wager is a retarded fallaccy! It begins by pre-supposing that one can choose to believe something, which is not true. One can delude oneself, but thats very different.

Hence my cynicism:D

I wouldn't go as far as to call it a retarded fallacy however, there's very different ways of loking at faith/religion etc and it's a bit naive to dismiss it outright