Accused of using mobile when scratching head

AnInnocentMawn

I was recently stopped by a garda who claimed I was using my mobile phone while driving.
I honestly was not using a phone at the time, maybe scratching my head or something which might have looked like using a phone.

However the guard was having none of it and insisted I was and proceeded to issue me the on the spot fine and I will also get the 2 penalty points.

What can I do about this? If I had been using the phone,I would accept this with no complaint. If this goes to court - it will be his word ( and his colleague) against mine. I know 2 penalty points wont affect my insurance, but it is the principle of this which really annoys me as I was not using the phone.


What would you do?

Karoma

AnInnocentMawn wrote:

What can I do about this? If I had been using the phone,I would accept this with no complaint. If this goes to court - it will be his word ( and his colleague) against mine. I know 2 penalty points wont affect my insurance, but it is the principle of this which really annoys me as I was not using the phone.


What would you do?

I'd go to court and demand they check my mobile phone usage (Calls received / made, with my provider).

Although, one must ask: Was your driving dangerous or seemingly impaired at the time of being pulled over even if it was not the result of mobile phone usage?

Fey!

Go through the log on your phone? Bring an itemised phonebill to court, along with documentation from your network provider showing incoming calls?

jayok

Get onto your mobile phone company and get a record of and calls to/from your phone from that hour. The time will be listed. Then use this to prove you weren't on the phone.

Wishbone Ash

AnInnocentMawn wrote:

If this goes to court - it will be his word ( and his colleague) against mine. I know 2 penalty points wont affect my insurance

Just bear in mind that, if convicted in court, it will be 4 points, not 2.

I'd take my chances with a court appearance and hope for a sympathetic judge.

CreepingDeath

AnInnocentMawn wrote:

..maybe scratching my head

Stop using head and shoulders, and submit a bag of dandruff as exhibit B.

Wishbone Ash

Karoma wrote:

demand they check my mobile phone usage (Calls received / made, with my provider)

Fey! wrote:

Go through the log on your phone? Bring an itemised phonebill to court

jayok wrote:

Get onto your mobile phone company and get a record of and calls to/from your phone from that hour

The relevant Statute Instrument, prohibiting the use of a mobile telephone while driving on a public road, does not specify that a call must be in progress. A motorist may be convicted for holding the phone while driving.

_Kaiser_

Yet another example why it's not acceptable that a Garda's "word" (especially in this country where it's every few months - or less - that they're embroiled in yet another scandal) is sufficient to prosecute and possibly convict someone.

I'd fight it OP but with the system we have - where people are actively discouraged from questioning the Gardai for fear of being landed with more points - you should be ready that you may well lose without any actual EVIDENCE having to be produced by the quota-filling cop in question.

Whatever happened to Innocent until PROVEN guilty.

AnInnocentMawn

The guard said I was talking on the phone. From his position I think the only use he could claim to have seen would have been an actual call.

The situation where I was stopped was that I was driving on a main road at 60mph and the guards were parked down a side road to my left and they must have been watching for mobile phone use.

I was just in a steady stream of traffic all doing the speed limit. I hadn't a clue what they'd stopped me for and was stunned when he told me I had been using my mobile. (I rarely use my mobile anyway and never in the car.)

My phone records will back me up but I wonder will they just ignore them in court, they probably go through these cases fast.

Stop using head and shoulders, and submit a bag of dandruff as exhibit B.

I use neutrogena , but I'll keep this advice in mind..

Has anyone actually been through an appeal for one of these points offences?

Guy:Incognito

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Yet another example why it's not acceptable that a Garda's "word" (especially in this country where it's every few months - or less - that they're embroiled in yet another scandal) is sufficient to prosecute and possibly convict someone. .

Unless your going to fit every gard with a head mounted camera capable fo recordign hi whole shift, I cant see much other way to go about things.

_Kaiser_

Stekelly wrote:

Unless your going to fit every gard with a head mounted camera capable fo recordign hi whole shift, I cant see much other way to go about things.

It'd work if we could trust that the Gardai were a professional and honest outfit, but I think regular reports of corruption, arrogance and incompetence make this impossible - at least until the new Ombudsman has a chance to weed out some of these individuals.

(offtopic and probably better in Humanities?: To be honest I wonder sometimes if the Irish in general are genetically incapable of running anything without the phenomenon of looking after their mates/family/themselves being the overriding factor and thus poisoning the process for everyone else.

Think about it.. everything from social welfare fraud, to planning permission corruption, the Gardai, right up to Bertie and our other elected officials (past and present) being investigated by Tribunals. And how do we react - "Ah sure wasn't he just unlucky to get caught?"

Sometimes I hate this country - and I'm Irish myself /offtopic)

seamus

Kaiser2000 wrote:

(offtopic and probably better in Humanities?: To be honest I wonder sometimes if the Irish in general are genetically incapable of running anything without the phenomenon of looking after their mates/family/themselves being the overriding factor and thus poisoning the process for everyone else.

It's not unique to Ireland. It happens in every country on the planet. The only thing is that we've spent the last 20 years moving from a rural backwater to a serious first-world country with a powerful economy - corruption has become less and less "acceptable", so it seems that a new scandal breaks every week, when in reality the bulk of the scandals occured 15/20 years ago, we're only finding out about them now.

As for the OP - as pointed out, you don't need to be on a call at the time. While records may show that you weren't on a call at the time, they won't show failed attempts - the garda could argue that you may have dialled, but cancelled the call when you saw the car.

Figures released (today) showed that two-thirds of all challenges to penalty points are succeeding in court. It may be worth it. You'd need to talk to a solicitor though I'd think, which may make it more expensive than it's worth.

jon1981

when its your word against a garda, does the garda win every time???

jimmycrackcorm

If the mobile calls list confirms that no calls were made and received then there is an excellent chance of a successful challenge. Without video evidence then there is reasonable doubt that the Garda's eyesight isn't supermans.

AnInnocentMawn

While records may show that you weren't on a call at the time, they won't show failed attempts - the garda could argue that you may have dialled, but cancelled the call when you saw the car.

That's true - but when stopped he actually said I was talking on the phone, held to my ear. He was quite certain - my left hand, my left ear, talking on the phone.

Moral of the story is an itchy head is now 2 penalty points - and it seems there's no reliable defense.

Be careful out there people.

Atomic Pineapple

its unfortunate that you have been a victim of the quota that the gardai are set to achieve, i wonder if the garda knew right well you werent on the phone and just picked a poor motorist out of the crowd? wouldnt suprise me.

its a tough one to call wether to go to court or not with the doubling of the points i'd ask a soliciter for advice and see

Karoma

Wishbone Ash wrote:

The relevant Statute Instrument, prohibiting the use of a mobile telephone while driving on a public road, does not specify that a call must be in progress. A motorist may be convicted for holding the phone while driving.

I always figured that was to cover texting - although, it could possibly be used to prosecute attempted calls, it'd be a tenuous case - especially if the defendant vehemently denies it and the Garda car didn't have a video camera. I don't think a judge would take his word over yours but cannot say for sure.

dingding

Are you left handed, I would use the phone wit my right,but never when driving

Henry Ford III

Produce itemised mobile bill. End of.

Pherekydes

Go to court and plead not guilty. Take it from there.


Fcuk it, I'm always scratching my head.

smemon

phone bill proves nothing..

you could have been texting, in the middle of playing an mp3, taking video, maybe about to make a call, connecting a charger into it etc..

none of that can be logged/proven.

BostonB

jon1981 wrote:

when its your word against a garda, does the garda win every time???

Not if you know the right person, or have photographic evidence.



This phone crack is unfair. Theres so many do it that it would be no hardship to catch them on the phone using a camera. Its unfair to do where theres no proof and they don't have to provide evidence. Its an offense to even hold a phone. How can you prove you weren't holding a phone? Unless you don't have one in the car, and you insist they find one on you or in the car.

seamus

Henry Ford III wrote:

Produce itemised mobile bill. End of.

That will only show calls you made. As pointed out, it doesn't show incoming calls, texts in progress, listening to ringtones, playing games....

For the record, the court won't always take a Garda's word as gospel. They will often be ignored if they lack other evidence - this is usually why you'll have two Gardai make the claim - two people's word against yours.

neacy69

seamus wrote:

That will only show calls you made. As pointed out, it doesn't show incoming calls, texts in progress, listening to ringtones, playing games....

For the record, the court won't always take a Garda's word as gospel. They will often be ignored if they lack other evidence - this is usually why you'll have two Gardai make the claim - two people's word against yours.

The OP has already said that the garda told him he had seen him with the phone in his left hand holding it to his left ear...so he saying that he was on the phone making/receiving a call at the time...

Creamy Goodness

this happened to me about two months ago,

exact same thing, scratching my head and adjusting my sunglasses, was pulled over and had the phone in the drinks holder down by the handbrake (where i always have it when driving).

i showed him the call log on the phone as he said i had the phone up to my ear while stopped at lights. he was having none of it took my license number and car reg and told me to expect the points. never got them but if i do i will appeal it.

i'm sure we got the same garda. he was a young 'un looking for his power trip to impress the ban garda that was driving him around

MAYPOP

My Dad got pulled over for allegedly talking on the phone, by a Garda who was behind in an unmarked car. Unfortunately for the Garda, my Dad doesn't even have a mobile phone, and he's also a smartarse (like father, like son:D ), so after much arguing, time-wasting and pisstaking, he challenged him to search the car for the phone. Red-faced Garda gave in, and also got a complaint for his trouble.

maidhc

seamus wrote:

That will only show calls you made. As pointed out, it doesn't show incoming calls, texts in progress, listening to ringtones, playing games....

For the record, the court won't always take a Garda's word as gospel. They will often be ignored if they lack other evidence - this is usually why you'll have two Gardai make the claim - two people's word against yours.

You don't hold your phone up to your ear for those things. The billing details don't show incoming calls, but it is possible to get a record of all communications. I have never done it, but the a request under the DPA should provide the information.

If there is no evidence a call was in progress I can't see the gardaí suffer the indignity of going before a judge.

wingnut

With these cases there is always a chance the garda will not show on the day anyway, making it even easier to win. Can't believe there are some guards that would do that. Any experience I've had with the gardai they have been very fair and professional.

Gregor Samsa

Henry Ford III wrote:

Produce itemised mobile bill. End of.

Unfortunately, even if that showed the incoming calls, texts, etc, it still wouldn't prove anything. Hypothecially, A driver could have two phones*, and show the bill for the one he wasn't using at the time in question.

OP, it sounds like it will be your word against the Garda's. But I'd fight my corner. Nothing worse that admitting to something you didn't do. It's a risk, given that the system is unfairly stacked against you, but good luck!

* I'm in no way suggesting this is the case with the OP. Just pointing out the fact that a phone bill or any phone records won't in itself prove anything to a judge.

Cappo

Reminds me of when the M1 opened, I was stopped by a garda car and the cop started reading me the riot act for driving with “walkman” earphones in, kept shouting at me “can you HEAR me – can you HEAR me”! I thought the cop was crazy. In fact the “earphones” he spotted from behind were the strings hanging from my sunglasses! The other cop in the car was pissing himself laughing as he had spotted the glasses string – lots of “oh sorry” and red faces!

Our man in Havana

maidhc wrote:

If there is no evidence a call was in progress I can't see the gardaí suffer the indignity of going before a judge.

Gardai simply don't care about little things like that. Have you ever heard of a garda being disciplined for bringing BS cases? I doubt they are. They can cause you to spend money on a lawyer to defend their baseless allegations but they will not be punished and you are still at the loss of your money.

Reminds me of a time I was involved in a minor accident, not my fault. I wanted the other guy prosecuted for dangerous parking. They refused and said if I didn't lay off they would do me for dangerous driving. There was no evidence of that and they freely admitted same. They commented that their case would fail in court but they would be delighted if I had to spend money to have the case dismissed.