Motorway driving / rules

jrar

Anyone know what we remain one of the few countries in W. Europe that allows drivers to stop on our motorways ? Notwithstanding the fact that we don't have any MSAs in place, does this excuse the sheer volume of vehicles (manned AND unmanned) to be found along the sides of our motorways ?

On a regular basis, a Dublin Bus double-decker could be seen on the h/s of the M4 westbound in the mornings with the driver reading the newspaper ! It beggars belief that the ignorance levels could be so high especially with someone who drives a PSV for a living !

We've all seen the pedestrian-under-the-flyover scenario on the M50 waiting for their lift to work, again totaly ignorant of the fact that no pedestrians are permitted on a motorway, for very good reason !

This morning, I saw a new variation on this theme - a coach owned by Slieve Bloom coaches was moseying along the M4 eastbound coming up to the Leixlip junction half in the h/s and half in the inside lane. My first instinct was that the motorway was backed up and he was about to exit at Leixlip, then I thought that maybe he didn't know where he was going, because at the last minute he indicated right and re-joined the motorway having driven across the opening to the exit ramp. However, with that, he pulls in on the hatched h/s area and proceeds to let a couple of passengers off, who then start walking up the exit ramp.

This endangering of lives is again from someone presumably with a PSV licence and who drives people to and from destinations for a living, and all for what ? - to save a minute instead of exiting the motorway and rejoining via the slip road on the far side ??

Honestly, you couldn't make it up !! (and needless to say, not a cop to be seen)

Tom Dunne

I drive that stretch of motorway regularly, and I know what you are talking about. I am sure the same could be repeated for evey stretch of motorway in the country.

It's down to driver education and lack of enforcement. How many times have you seen somebody plod along in the overtaking lane at 80 Km/h? The fact that it is an overtaking lane, not a cruising lane seems to be lost on a lot of people. At the very least, there should be signs in the central median reminding people that if they are not overtaking, they shouldn't be in the lane.

Davidth88

I too drive that part of the motorway system every morning/evening.

The number of people waiting to be picked up is unreal, and incredibly dangerous.

I have seen any number of people jumping off the bridge over the resevoir/Liffey to go swimming , and only a few weeks ago was confronted by 10 naked blokes standing on the parapet just about to jump into the river.

I have also seen people walking down the central reservation believe it or not !

As for where the bus stops to I assume wait for their ' time slot ' I have seen that many times.

As soon as the traffic backs up , you see loads of private cars dashing down the bus lane/ hardshoulder

Its a scandal to be honest the only Garda you ever see there are hiding in that stupid Gatso van .

BrianD

jrar wrote:

Anyone know what we remain one of the few countries in W. Europe that allows drivers to stop on our motorways ? Notwithstanding the fact that we don't have any MSAs in place, does this excuse the sheer volume of vehicles (manned AND unmanned) to be found along the sides of our motorways ?

On a regular basis, a Dublin Bus double-decker could be seen on the h/s of the M4 westbound in the mornings with the driver reading the newspaper ! It beggars belief that the ignorance levels could be so high especially with someone who drives a PSV for a living !

We've all seen the pedestrian-under-the-flyover scenario on the M50 waiting for their lift to work, again totaly ignorant of the fact that no pedestrians are permitted on a motorway, for very good reason !

This morning, I saw a new variation on this theme - a coach owned by Slieve Bloom coaches was moseying along the M4 eastbound coming up to the Leixlip junction half in the h/s and half in the inside lane. My first instinct was that the motorway was backed up and he was about to exit at Leixlip, then I thought that maybe he didn't know where he was going, because at the last minute he indicated right and re-joined the motorway having driven across the opening to the exit ramp. However, with that, he pulls in on the hatched h/s area and proceeds to let a couple of passengers off, who then start walking up the exit ramp.

This endangering of lives is again from someone presumably with a PSV licence and who drives people to and from destinations for a living, and all for what ? - to save a minute instead of exiting the motorway and rejoining via the slip road on the far side ??

Honestly, you couldn't make it up !! (and needless to say, not a cop to be seen)

May I suggest that you write to both companies? Do post their responses!

Chris_533976

I saw someone standing in the central reservation of the N8 HITCHHIKING the other day. IN THE CENTRAL RESERVATION.

I hope no-one stopped, but it was two attractive women so I'd say it wouldnt take long

Granted, not a motorway, but still bloody stupid.

Terrontress

What I find ridiculous is that there is a penalty point offence:

"Driving a vehicle against traffic flow on a motorway" with fixed penalty of two points!

As far as I am concerned, anyone who illegally drives their vehicle the wrong way up the motorway should be put off the roads for at least twelve months or possibly for good, never mind two penalty points!

steve-o

Chris_533976 wrote:

I saw someone standing in the central reservation of the N8 HITCHHIKING the other day.

Was it Groundhog day?

murphaph

I see about 6 people every day on the M50 waitin for the oul lift to the site. The fact that I also see coppers flying past them is nothing short of disgraceful.

Alun

It's the same on the M11 near Bray where some eejit regularly crosses from the other side of the motorway, hops over the crash barrier, waits on the central reservation until his lift arrives and stops under the motorway bridge and then runs across two lanes of traffic to get in. My wife has reported him several times and it seems to work for a day or two and then he's back to his tricks again. On a few occasions, his antics have caused minor crunches with cars slamming on the anchors when they see someone crossing in front of them.

corktina

steve-o wrote:

Was it Groundhog day?

jrar

BrianD wrote:

May I suggest that you write to both companies? Do post their responses!

Brian, as per your suggestion, I wrote to Slieve Bloom coaches and got a very helpful response which basically asked me for time and reg. no. so that they could follow up. Unfortunately, I didn't take his reg. no. as I was almost at the top of the slip road when I saw the passengers disembarking via my rear-view mirror, so that was my response to them. Their subsequent reply reads :

"Good Morning,

Thanks for that we will should be able to track down what driver was there at that time. But if you do see any of our buses driving/stopping dangerously please do pass on the information onto me so we can put a stop to it straight away. Our number one priority is our passengers safety."


I didn't contact DB as a) I haven't seen one of their buses stopped on the M4for some weeks now, and b) even if I had, I'm travelling eastbound in the morning so there's a hedge etc. between me and the offending vehicle parked over on the h/s of the westbound carriageway blocking my view.

Wishbone Ash

Terrontress wrote:

What I find ridiculous is that there is a penalty point offence:

"Driving a vehicle against traffic flow on a motorway" with fixed penalty of two points!

As far as I am concerned, anyone who illegally drives their vehicle the wrong way up the motorway should be put off the roads for at least twelve months or possibly for good, never mind two penalty points!

That penalty point offence was introduced to cutrail the practise of reversing back along the hard shoulder having missed an exit lane. It's not as dramatic as driving against the flow of traffic on the actual carriageway which is a much more serious offence and probably merits a court appearance.

DerekP11

We are currently paying the price for a very very badly educated driving population, in terms of motorways. They're a reletively recent road type in Ireland. Therefore;

1. We have many drivers who did a driving test at a time when the rules of the road booklet made no reference to motorways as they didn't exist in Ireland.

2. The UK opened its first motorway in 1957. The concept is ingrained in their driving habits now. With better education Irish drivers can eventually grasp it.

3. Many parts of Ireland, have no motorways or HQDCs and never will within a 50km radius. People in these areas will have less experience on these road types and will be prone to making mistakes when they venture onto them. This is yet another problem that needs to be addressed.

4. Its all about enforcement. I would guess that we have a very poor record of enforcing motorway violations. Apart from the pedestrian factor, we have 1000s of L-Drivers on our motorway network. How big an improvement would there be on the M50, if every L-Driver was taken off it. Ive also seen tractors use the M7 on a regular basis and in one instance a police car passing by. No action taken.

Overall, education and enforcement are the key areas in relation to motorways. Sadly, the media often call 2 lane national primary roads, motorways and I often wonder do the Gardai know the rules for motorways. There's a fortune to be made in fines.

MLM

DerekP11 wrote:

4. Its all about enforcement. I would guess that we have a very poor record of enforcing motorway violations. Apart from the pedestrian factor, we have 1000s of L-Drivers on our motorway network. How big an improvement would there be on the M50, if every L-Driver was taken off it. Ive also seen tractors use the M7 on a regular basis and in one instance a police car passing by. No action taken.

Overall, education and enforcement are the key areas in relation to motorways. Sadly, the media often call 2 lane national primary roads, motorways and I often wonder do the Gardai know the rules for motorways. There's a fortune to be made in fines.

I asked a gaurd about motorway restrictions before, and he stated that there was no proper legislation ever enacted to enforce them. Not sure if this is true, but it would help explain the present situation.

Victor

It comes under driving without a licence.

DerekP11

MLM wrote:

I asked a gaurd about motorway restrictions before, and he stated that there was no proper legislation ever enacted to enforce them. Not sure if this is true, but it would help explain the present situation.

That wouldn't surprise me in the least. Must check that out some more.

Wishbone Ash

DerekP11 wrote:

Ive also seen tractors use the M7 on a regular basis and in one instance a police car passing by. No action taken

I'm open to correction on this but many large modern tractors are equipped with suspension and are capable of travelling at more than 50kph. Presumably, therefore they are legally permitted on a motorway as they meet the criterion of being able to travel at least 50kph (provided of course, that the driver has a full W or B licence).

DerekP11

Agricultural vehicles are not permitted on motorways. The large blue signs that list prohibted vehicles as you approach a motorway, state this. We adopted our motorway rules from the UK and thats how its done over there. Ive seen them try it in south Wales and get pulled by the police. So, I guess our police don't even know the "rules of the road". I again push L-Drivers on motorways as yet another offence that seems to go unpunished. As MLM suggested, was the legislation drawn up in 1983 (Naas bypass) to support motorway rules or are the signs just generic british imports to make the motorways look good?

AndrewMc

DerekP11 wrote:

Agricultural vehicles are not permitted on motorways. The large blue signs that list prohibted vehicles as you approach a motorway, state this.

No they don't (assuming you're talking about Ireland): http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/signs-motorway.html

Davidth88

I have seen quite a few instances of push-bikes on the M4 , about 1 per week.

As for the police, I have seen them sitting in the ' police only ' area off the hard shoulder, and 50 mts away from them was a broken down minibus with kids running around the hard shoulder. They were not taking the blind bit of notice.

Also who is responsible for maintaining , as in cleaning the motorways ? Almost since it opened there has been a huge tractor tyre sitting on the M7 central reservation just after Kildare. Just imagine hitting that at 120 kph !

Andrew Duffy

AndrewMc wrote:

No they don't (assuming you're talking about Ireland): http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/signs-motorway.html

Second this. If a vehicle has pneumatic tyres, an engine of more than 50cc, can travel at more than 50km/h and is driven by a driver with a full licence for its category, it can be driven on a motorway.

jrar

Davidth88 wrote:

Also who is responsible for maintaining , as in cleaning the motorways ? Almost since it opened there has been a huge tractor tyre sitting on the M7 central reservation just after Kildare. Just imagine hitting that at 120 kph !

I would think the NRA are responsible for all aspects of motorway maintenance, cleaning, line-painting, safety barriers, etc. Compared to most, our motorways are filthy but I think that says more about us as a littered nation than it does about NRA negligence

Victor

It is for the concil to clean generally, with the NRA financing it.

After an incident, I imagine the council would bill people.

JupiterKid

The abuse of motorway regulations in Ireland is a total joke. People walking, a horse and cart, stopped cars, hitchhikers, L drivers etc. -I see them all pretty regularly. And we must be the only country in the world that has signs on slip roads saying WRONG WAY TURN BACK.:(

Zoney

JupiterKid wrote:

And we must be the only country is the world that has sighs on sips roads saying WRONG WAY TURN BACK.:(

In fairness, that's probably no harm - there have been from time to time incidents in the UK of people entering dual carriageways the wrong way. Sure the reasons will usually be such that the sign isn't going to deter them - but it's a second chance after the initial no-entry signs to try and warn them.

murphaph

JupiterKid wrote:

The abuse of motorway regulations in Ireland is a total joke. People walking, a horse and cart, stopped cars, hitchhikers, L drivers etc. -I see them all pretty regularly. And we must be the only country is the world that has sighs on sips roads saying WRONG WAY TURN BACK.:(

Don't forget about "No Hitchhiking" :rolleyes:

Wishbone Ash

DerekP11 wrote:

Agricultural vehicles are not permitted on motorways. The large blue signs that list prohibted vehicles as you approach a motorway, state this

The "large blue signs" state:

No
L drivers
Vehicles under 50cc
Slow Vehicles (under 50kph)
Invalid Carriages
Pedal cycles
Pedestrians
Animals

Derek - perhaps you could enlighten us as to where it states that agricultural vehicles are not permitted!

jlang

Not agricultural, but what's an "invalid carriage"? All I can think of is an ambulance and surely they aren't banned from the motorway network.

Mitch Connor

lol

Davidth88

but what's an "invalid carriage"?

People of a certain age will remember the blue 3 wheeled ' cars ' supplied to people with disabilities . I don't think they exist any more.

http://www.motoringpicturelibrary.com/preview_image.asp?lcID=20&fleID=3707


I will contact the NRA about the tyre on the M7 , it's annoyed me for the last 2 years.

But why should I have to contact then , don't the police patrol the motorway , don't they report things that are dangerous ? I guess not !

Actually the US highways also have WRONGWAY turn back signs I think don't they ?

Alun

JupiterKid wrote:

And we must be the only country in the world that has signs on slip roads saying WRONG WAY TURN BACK.:(

No we're not .. have seen them in Holland as well ... "GA TERUG!".

Alun

Davidth88 wrote:

But why should I have to contact then , don't the police patrol the motorway , don't they report things that are dangerous ? I guess not !

In the UK you regularly see all kinds of vehicles with "MOTORWAY MAINTENANCE" signs on them patrolling up and down the motorways.

Davidth88

I haven't lived in the UK for a few years, but now when I drive over there you see loads of what look like police cars marked

Motorway Incident Team or something , it seems the highways agency have now got their own patrol force.

I am actually shocked at the lack of policing/patrolling here , no-one seems to care that L plated cars drive on the motorways , that people stop on the motorway etc . Then when a horrible pile up occurs like the one in Kildare earlier this year , people are surprised.

Talking about Kildare , has anyone driven the M7 recently ,

a) What are the road' works' for , whenever I pass there no one isever working there
b) Does no one check the temp markings? They are highly dangerous/badly laid out it's an accident waiting to happen.

Terrontress

Alun wrote:

In the UK you regularly see all kinds of vehicles with "MOTORWAY MAINTENANCE" signs on them patrolling up and down the motorways.

The Highways Agency!

They drive Shoguns and Range Rovers designed to look like Police Cars but are limited to the 70mph limit.

Apparently they often get emergency calls and then sit at 70 while everyone else going about their business overtakes them at 80!

Alun

Terrontress wrote:

They drive Shoguns and Range Rovers designed to look like Police Cars but are limited to the 70mph limit.

Apparently they often get emergency calls and then sit at 70 while everyone else going about their business overtakes them at 80!

Yeah, I know them well! You can usually spot them when you get closer, but from a distance they look uncannily like police vehicles!

There are similar vehicles to be seen on the major non-motorway routes these days as well. I've seen them on a few occasions parked a safe distance behind broken down cars with all their flashing lights ablaze to warn oncoming traffic of a broken down vehicle. I'm not sure whether they were from the Highways Agency, or one of the 3rd party road maintenance companies that seem to be sprouting up there recently, but it's a damn good idea either way.

murphaph

The HA have responsibility for ALL trunk roads in England & wales. Trunk roads incorporate (AFAIK) all motorways but also many hundreds of miles of A road. The UK trunk network is funded centrally while non-trunk A roads, B roads and unclassified roads are funded locally. It's not entrirely dissimilar to here, only done properly.

Wishbone Ash

jlang wrote:

what's an "invalid carriage"? All I can think of is an ambulance and surely they aren't banned from the motorway network.

I always presumed that they were those little sit-on electric buggies that some older people use.

mackerski

DerekP11 wrote:

We are currently paying the price for a very very badly educated driving population, in terms of motorways. They're a reletively recent road type in Ireland. Therefore;

We've had them since about 1983. That's not my idea of recent.

DerekP11 wrote:

1. We have many drivers who did a driving test at a time when the rules of the road booklet made no reference to motorways as they didn't exist in Ireland.

This is partially right. It took more than 10 years after the Naas Bypass opened to get some (pretty useless) references to motorways into the ROTR, so while many drivers qualified without motorway info, that wasn't because we didn't have any.

Victor

Davidth88 wrote:

a) What are the road' works' for , whenever I pass there no one isever working there

The builder's holidays are on at the moment.

Civilian_Target

Davidth88 wrote:

I have seen quite a few instances of push-bikes on the M4 , about 1 per week.

That doesn't surprise me. I was following a signed "cycle route" one night in Clonee and found, to my surprise, that I was on a sliproad down to the N3 (hadn't realised it was a sliproad until I was half way down it, with no clear, safe way of coming back up it!)

What followed was several miles of terror on a pushbike in the hard shoulder to the next exit, in the dark, in the winter, with people clearly violating the 100kmph speed limit less than a metre from my bike. Never been so glad for lights and a reflective vest!

So quite possibly not the cyclists fault, there might just be some bad signage...

DerekP11

To the proposer, seconder and supporters in the "Derek is wrong" category.

I know for a fact that agricultural vehicles are banned from UK motorways. I admit that I confused my recollection of signage with the UK. Irish signage does indeed omit the term "agricultural vehicle". My own knowledge is based on study of motorway rules from driving experience in Germany and the UK and a general interest in the concept. Unfortunately the DOT and NRA are closed as I type, so the only evidence I could find to support my incredulous claim is here;

http://www.mayococo.ie/en/Services/Roads/RoadSafety/MotorwayDriving/

Ironically its from the west of Ireland and that region hasn't got motorways.
The debate will continue so. Interpretation will explode amongst the more bored. Frankly no motorway should have a tractor and trailer trundling along it.

Wishbone Ash

DerekP11 wrote:

I know for a fact that agricultural vehicles are banned from UK motorways

That is indeed correct.

cast_iron

jlang wrote:

but what's an "invalid carriage"?

And to add to my confusion, I was taking it to mean "not valid".

Wishbone Ash

cast_iron wrote:

And to add to my confusion, I was taking it to mean "not valid".

LMAO (I never thought of it like that!)

Wishbone Ash

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I always presumed that they were those little sit-on electric buggies that some older people use.

Like this.

Hotblack Desiato

DerekP11 wrote:

so the only evidence I could find to support my incredulous claim is here;http://www.mayococo.ie/en/Services/Roads/RoadSafety/MotorwayDriving/

Someone needs to tell them we no longer use MPH.

murphaph

ninja900 wrote:

Someone needs to tell them we no longer use MPH.

The people of Mayo will NOT be told what units to use by the beaurocrats in Dublin!

Wishbone Ash

murphaph wrote:

The people of Mayo will NOT be told what units to use by the beaurocrats in Dublin!

Yup - they re-elected Beverly Flynn!

Carawaystick

JupiterKid wrote:

The abuse of motorway regulations in Ireland is a total joke. People walking, a horse and cart, stopped cars, hitchhikers, L drivers etc. -I see them all pretty regularly. And we must be the only country in the world that has signs on slip roads saying WRONG WAY TURN BACK.:(

Up north, some motorway exits have big no entry signs and flashing red lights like at a level crossing.

The slow vehicles thing encompases agricultural tractors. You are not permitted to use green Diesel (Marked Gas Oil) in a vehicle with a top speed higher than 30 mph.

The N3 is not a motorway, so you're perfectly entitled to cycle on it. which is why a cycle lane led to it. If a cycle lane led to an actual motorway like say the N32 westbound, then things would be different.

And If cars going faster than 10kmh scares you on your pushbike, you are also entitled to cycle on some dual carriageways where the speed limit is 120kmh

icdg

The UK used to use the "Motorway Ahead" sign - and it read pretty identically to the one we use. Here's a picture of the (former) UK version - not that different from ours...

http://bealach-na-ba.fotopic.net/p32086916.html

No mention of agricultural vehicles there either. I presume they would be covered under "Vehicles under 50cc" and "slow vehicles"....

Wishbone Ash

icdg wrote:

The UK used to use the "Motorway Ahead" sign - and it read pretty identically to the one we use. Here's a picture of the (former) UK version - not that different from ours...

http://bealach-na-ba.fotopic.net/p32086916.html

No mention of agricultural vehicles there either

But it is mentioned in the Highway Code.

"227: Prohibited vehicles. Motorways MUST NOT be used by pedestrians, holders of provisional car or motorcycle driving licences unless exempt, riders of motorcycles under 50cc, cyclists and horse riders. Certain slow-moving vehicles and those carrying oversized loads (except by special permission), agricultural vehicles and most invalid carriages are also prohibited.
Laws HA 1980 sects 16, 17 & sch 4, MT(E&W)R reg 4, MT(E&W)(A)R, R(S)A sects 7 ,8 & sch 3 & MT(S)R reg 10"

There doesn't seem to be a similar prohibition in the Irish motorway regulations.

icdg wrote:

I presume they would be covered under "Vehicles under 50cc" and "slow vehicles"....

I can't think of any agricultural vehicles that are less that 50cc.

Re - 'Slow vehicles' refers to vehicles which cannot exceed 50kph but many modern tractors can easily do 60 or 70kph. That is the crux of the 'tractors on motorway' debate.