Legal Bid fails to stop Nigerian family's deportation

Morlar

marcsignal wrote:

Yes you're absolutely right JacobM, and I can understand fully Sovtec's frustration. Everybody would like to see an efficient fast-track system in place, but there are 2 main factors hampering the whole show.

1) Continuous Appealing of Court Deportation Orders when they are issued.

2) Legal representatives motivated by Greed . . . .


Lobby groups, and people like 'Rosanna Flynn . . .

Might be interested to know that even AFTER the deportation and free hotel accomodation to ease deportees back into a life in AFRICA the appeals process continues:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhcwmhidauid/


"The solicitor representing the Nigerian family deported earlier this week is reportedly insisting that their legal case in Ireland is not closed."

"However, solicitor Kevin Brophy is quoted this morning as saying that the case will come back before the court on October 1,"

"Mr Brophy says he will also be arguing for a new form of legal protection called "subsidiary protection" for people who do not qualify as refugees, but who would be at risk of serious harm in their home country."

marcsignal

Morlar wrote:

Might be interested to know that even AFTER the deportation and free hotel accomodation to ease deportees back into a life in AFRICA the appeals process continues:

Jeez H Christ :rolleyes:

So it looks like "Mr. Brophy" might be getting the New Decking for the back garden of the house in Dalkey, with room for a Pony, and the soft-top Beamer after all, Eh ?

Un(F*cking)believable :rolleyes:

Morlar

marcsignal wrote:

Un(F*cking)believable :rolleyes:

I think its pretty unbelievable too. At a guess I would say that if there was a referendum tomorrow mr brophy would have the full support of about .01% of the native Irish population behind him (those who are paying for all this nonsense that is).

sovtek

Morlar wrote:

I think its pretty unbelievable too. At a guess I would say that if there was a referendum tomorrow mr brophy would have the full support of about .01% of the native Irish population behind him (those who are paying for all this nonsense that is).

With .01% of the native Irish population having a clue of their own immigration system and how it works in practice (or that immigrants pay for it too) I would probably agree with your prediction there.

Morlar

sovtek wrote:

With .01% of the native Irish population having a clue of their own immigration system and how it works in practice (or that immigrants pay for it too) I would probably agree with your prediction there.

The vast majority of the total financial cost of our immigration system (not to mention years of accomodation, living expenses allowances, education, health care and legal representation and administrative overhead on bogus cases + legitimate ones) and the literally countless appeals processes are paid for by Irish tax paying workers.

Mena

Morlar wrote:

The vast majority of the total financial cost of our immigration system (not to mention years of accomodation, living expenses allowances, education, health care and legal representation and administrative overhead on bogus cases + legitimate ones) and the literally countless appeals processes are paid for by Irish tax paying workers.

We, as immigrants, pay tax to :rolleyes:

Morlar

Mena wrote:

We, as immigrants, pay tax to :rolleyes:

If you live and work here legally paying tax on your earnings then yes it goes without (or should) saying that you would be one of the Irish tax paying workers I referred to.

Out of curiosity do you think countless appeals and counter appeals for literally years and years on end at a cost of millions per case is money well spent ? I honestly dont think so.

marcsignal

Mena wrote:

We, as immigrants, pay tax to :rolleyes:

Yes that's a completely true and valid point, but if "Mr. Brophy" wasn't wa*king us all off and wasting everybody's time with this crap, both You and Sovtek might get a fair crack at the title (meaning that your applications would probably be processed more quickly)
Surely you can accept that this 'tennis match' syndrome, is a huge factor in the frustrating mess the system is in ?

marcsignal

There is something you all should know about the Irish, and the history of this whole issue. This will be a long read, but I hope it will clear a few things up.
We have had only 10 years experience of Immigration as we know it now, per say.
After the Kosovan War 1996-99 and the conflict in the former Yugoslavia, there was, understandably, a flood of refugees and asylum seekers fleeing that unspeakable carnage.

The EU as a whole, in my opinion, had a moral obligation to help because they f*cked about dithering and squabbling amongst themselves about what to do, while people were being slaughtered by that PIG Slopadon Milosovich, and other would be mass murderers like him.
Many came to Ireland with the support of the Irish in a huge majority of cases, and in my opinion it was UNBELIEVABLE that it took so long for the EU to act on the worst atrocity in Europe since WW2.

In the years that followed, the Irish were overcome by a wave of righteous and sanctimonious emotion about the whole issue of Immigration, Asylum and Racism, Especially Racism.
Everybody started to talk about these issues, and whenever people were asked for their opinion, they rattled out the standard line,
“Sure the Irish went all over the world” which was in fact, a meaningless and irrelevant statement, but it made Irish people feel good to say it, and they couldn’t say it often enough. We LOVE that sort of thing in Ireland, we can’t get enough of it, that feeling of being righteous and holier than thou.

Everyone was chomping at the bit in an orderly stampede to the moral high ground, and indulged themselves in a frenzy of calling anyone who wasn’t full of blind enthusiasm, for an open door policy on Immigration and Asylum, a big fat Racist. Every little street cleaner and sh*t shoveller in the country, was suddenly an authority on Racism.
If you were stupid enough to voice ANY cautionary note about Immigration or Asylum, you were very likely to be eaten alive by most people around you.

In this environment, the P.C. Brigade had an absolute f*cking field day, slapping each other on the back and telling themselves “Look at us !! Aren’t We Great?” They then began putting huge pressure on the authorities to advocate an open door policy for anyone who wanted to come here, and they've lobbied for nothing less than that ever since.

This resulted in a huge amount of people coming to Ireland in the search for a better life, because our border controls were a joke and our social welfare system was perceived as generous.
Now it is inevitable under these circumstances, and in such a pseudo-moral climate, that chancers and fraudsters were going to jump on the band wagon. However, it became impossible to deal with the chancers and fraudsters and kick them out, or refuse them entry, because any Official who was to make such a decision, would have been crucified in the Media, and after all, who would want to be labelled a Racist ?? Not me for starters, No Thanks !

So you see, from the beginning, it’s all been about numbers, and the attitude of the Government here. They made token gestures, but in reality, ignored the problem, and hoped it would just go away.
Finally the fact that Irish people themselves can only stand together when they are having a Piss, or ordering a Pint, didn’t help either. Consequently we have been overwhelmed and under-funded from the beginning, despite the ironic fact that the country was/is richer than it had/has ever been before.

Now I feel the attitude is changing among many Irish. Deportation appeals are so abundant that it’s like overplaying a commercial pop song to most people. They are just pissed off with the whole thing, they don’t want to hear it anymore. They seem to just want the chancers and fraudsters out, and I aggree with that fully, so we can deal with the genuine cases who deserve a chance to work and live here.

I genuinely believe Immigration has had a positive effect on Ireland myself, but it bugs me and offends me when people like “Olivia Agbonlahor” and "Kunlee Elunhanla" the ill fated leaving cert. student from Nigeria for example, take us for total gobsh*tes.

sovtek

marcsignal wrote:

Yes that's a completely true and valid point, but if "Mr. Brophy" wasn't wa*king us all off and wasting everybody's time with this crap, both You and Sovtek might get a fair crack at the title (meaning that your applications would probably be processed more quickly)
Surely you can accept that this 'tennis match' syndrome, is a huge factor in the frustrating mess the system is in ?

No we would have a "fair crack at the title" (how arrogant is that?) if the 200K over expenses that our immigrant tax brings in was actually used for that instead of going into the ministers ever increasing salary.
Incidentally as I understand it asylum seekers have decreased so it's a fair bet that the resources used for that aren't taking anything anyway from resources needed for our application process.

marcsignal

sovtek wrote:

No we would have a "fair crack at the title" (how arrogant is that?)

sorry you took it up that way sovtek ? it really wasn't my intention for that to sound arrogant, honestly.

marcsignal

sovtek wrote:

the ministers ever increasing salary.

if it's any consolation, virtually every single man and woman in Ireland is pissed off about the above aswell. It's also our money/contribution they are helping themselves to remember. For example, dying on a Hospital trolley is disturbingly quite common these days even for Citizens of Celtic Tiger Ireland.

sovtek

marcsignal wrote:

if it's any consolation, virtually every single man and woman in Ireland is pissed off about the above aswell. It's also our money/contribution they are helping themselves to remember. For example, dying on a Hospital trolley is disturbingly quite common these days even for Citizens of Celtic Tiger Ireland.

Difference is you don't blame the patient in this regard.

sovtek

marcsignal wrote:

sorry you took it up that way sovtek ? it really wasn't my intention for that to sound arrogant, honestly.

No worries. It just sounded that way. This subject is close to the bone with me right now so I may be a little touchy too.

Morlar

sovtek wrote:

Difference is you don't blame the patient in this regard.

To take that one step further - not everyone on the planet is entitled free medical care paid for by the Irish exchequer. If that was the policy (truly open borders) that would bring the standard down for everyone instead of raising it in my view.

sovtek

Morlar wrote:

To take that one step further - not everyone on the planet is entitled free medical care paid for by the Irish exchequer. If that was the policy (truly open borders) that would bring the standard down for everyone instead of raising it in my view.

No offense but very few people come here to scam off the substandard health service in ireland.

marcsignal

sovtek wrote:

No worries. It just sounded that way. This subject is close to the bone with me right now so I may be a little touchy too.

I totally understand that, I have a friend from Morocco who has been working his arse off here for 6 years now, and you couldn't meet a nicer bloke. He is having exactly the same problem as you seem to be, getting the run-around from Immigration Officials and stuck in limbo not knowing where he stands. He hasn't been home to see his family in all this time, because he is afraid if he leaves, he won't be allowed back in. I know it sucks, and I really wish I had the solution, which is why it irritates me when I hear about cases like the one we're discussing. I really believe the Courts have wasted far too much time and money on this woman and her kids.

marcsignal

sovtek wrote:

No offense but very few people come here to scam off the substandard health service in ireland.

good point Sovtec A person would probably be better off in a Hospital in Baghdad, A&E there would certainly be safer on a Saturday night than James's or Tallaght Hospital

Jackie laughlin

"Pityless", oooops! Mea culpa. "Pitiless"! I'm not at all offended if someone corrects an error.

To treat anyone as an exception is clearly an act of discrimination. However, discrimination is not always bad. Indeed it can be the moral course.

Yes, if a child were born in Ireland or any other country but moved at a young age to Nigeria and had settled happily there for a period of years, I feel that he or she could reasonably be described as Nigerian.

There's nothing remarkable about having multiple national identities. We have Irish people who are also British. I have a six year old neighbour who has no problem being both Polish and Irish. (His Ma is Polish and his Da is Irish.) He speaks English, Polish and a little Irish.

Cut out the technicalities and the genetics and concentrate on culture. We've deported two Irish kids to a country in which they are strangers.

purple'n'gold

You regard two children born in Italy of Nigerian parents as Irish?

heyjude

sovtek wrote:

No offense but very few people come here to scam off the substandard health service in ireland.

The British government recognise the concept of health/medical tourism, whereby people from other countries travel to Britain and then claim they are ill and seek free treatment for pre-existing medical problems. And in fairness nobody knows exactly how many people come here for free medical treatment.

If you believe the number of people coming here to "scam off the substandard health service" is just a few, then maybe its just a coincidence that immigrants especially from Africa make up a high proportion of new HIV/AIDS patients presenting for treatment here. Of course our health system might be substandard, but everything is relative and compared to the health system in many countries, ours is world class.

Check out these figures from http://www.dublinaidsalliance.com/statistics.htm

Newly Diagnosed HIV infections in Ireland - Summary 2006

337 newly diagnosed cases.Of the 283 cases where geographic origin was known, 125 were born in Ireland and 109 were born in sub-Saharan Africa. Data on geographic origin are not available for 54 cases.

Newly Diagnosed HIV infections in Ireland - Summary 2005
A total of 318 HIV infections newly diagnosed during 2005 were reported to the HPSC.Of the 276 cases where geographic origin was known, 127 were born in Ireland and 117 were born in sub-Saharan Africa. Data on geographic origin is not available for 42 cases.

But of course none of these people came here for our health service

Dublin1600

Jackie laughlin wrote:

There's nothing remarkable about having multiple national identities. We have Irish people who are also British. I have a six year old neighbour who has no problem being both Polish and Irish. (His Ma is Polish and his Da is Irish.) He speaks English, Polish and a little Irish.

This makes that child Irish/Polish, but by your logic if that child were born in Japan would he be Japanese???

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Cut out the technicalities and the genetics and concentrate on culture. We've deported two Irish kids to a country in which they are strangers.

We have deported 3 illegal Nigerian immigrations FULL STOP

My wife is Irish and my children were born in Germany, the youngest holds a German Kinderausweis, I never consider them German and never will, they are Irish. I don't see any logic in you calling two illegal Nigerian immigrants who were born in Italy, but spent time in Ireland, Irish.

Delboy05

heyjude wrote:

Newly Diagnosed HIV infections in Ireland - Summary 2006

337 newly diagnosed cases.Of the 283 cases where geographic origin was known, 125 were born in Ireland and 109 were born in sub-Saharan Africa. Data on geographic origin are not available for 54 cases.

Newly Diagnosed HIV infections in Ireland - Summary 2005
A total of 318 HIV infections newly diagnosed during 2005 were reported to the HPSC.Of the 276 cases where geographic origin was known, 127 were born in Ireland and 117 were born in sub-Saharan Africa. Data on geographic origin is not available for 42 cases.

But of course none of these people came here for our health service

well pointed out. Those figures have been out there for the past number of years and if you use them in this type of debate, you are considered racist by the liberal open-borders brigade. We also had the ridiculous situation where our hospitals were overloaded with immigrants having children and ambulances were on standby at the airports.
Immigration has been good for this country but there is a substantial element of it from certain countries that are only coming here to get as much freebies as they can

marcsignal

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Cut out the technicalities and the genetics and concentrate on culture.

Jackie, that's a very Irish attitude to Law if you dont mind my saying so, it's a bit like saying,

"Aw sure it'll be grand, aw yeah so they're here illegally, but aw sure you know yourself, ah well, sure I suppose we can just ignore it this one time, couldn't we ?? Wink wink nudge nudge, how's yer father? Sure if push comes to shove we'll just throw an auld spanner in the works and buy yiz a little more time, and sure before you know it, the 2 kids will have reached puberty, and sure maybe then the little young one might even decide to have a babby herself etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc...."

The legal representatives in all of these cases are FULLY AWARE they can create a convenient safety net, by putting in appeal after appeal after appeal after appeal, and HOPEFULLY by the end, they will get their clients in by default, simply because they have been here for so long.
They are wasting our money and the courts time.
In the long drawn out process the solicitors can conveniently line their own pockets into the bargain, so why should they be up for a fast track system ? I'm sure the current mess suits them just fine.

A precedent must be set, and if I'm honest, I'm glad we seem to be finally getting wide to time wasters and chancers, enabling us to make room for the genuine cases.

El Stuntman

Delboy05 wrote:

Immigration has been good for this country but there is a substantial element of it from certain countries that are only coming here to get as much freebies as they can

who are these 'certain countries' Del? I assume Nigeria is on your list, what other ones would you include?

Delboy05

El Stuntman wrote:

who are these 'certain countries' Del? I assume Nigeria is on your list, what other ones would you include?

Nigeria without a doubt....Romania and Bulgaria had a lot of asylum applications before they joined the EU and their citizens were no longer then allowed apply.
I think it's the UNHCR report for 2005 or was it 2004 that pointed out that 25% of all Nigerians who applied for asylum in the western world (EU,America/Canada,Australia etc) did so in Ireland.....must be the good weather here that attracted them!!!

sovtek

marcsignal wrote:

A precedent must be set, and if I'm honeat, I'm glad we seem to be finally getting wide to time wasters and chancers, enabling us to make room for the genuine cases.

If anyone is a time waster or a chancer in this situation it is most certainly the DoJ.
http://immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=18055

sovtek

heyjude wrote:

The British government recognise the concept of health/medical tourism, whereby people from other countries travel to Britain and then claim they are ill and seek free treatment for pre-existing medical problems. And in fairness nobody knows exactly how many people come here for free medical treatment.

If you believe the number of people coming here to "scam off the substandard health service" is just a few, then maybe its just a coincidence that immigrants especially from Africa make up a high proportion of new HIV/AIDS patients presenting for treatment here. Of course our health system might be substandard, but everything is relative and compared to the health system in many countries, ours is world class.

Check out these figures from http://www.dublinaidsalliance.com/statistics.htm

Newly Diagnosed HIV infections in Ireland - Summary 2006

337 newly diagnosed cases.Of the 283 cases where geographic origin was known, 125 were born in Ireland and 109 were born in sub-Saharan Africa. Data on geographic origin are not available for 54 cases.

Newly Diagnosed HIV infections in Ireland - Summary 2005
A total of 318 HIV infections newly diagnosed during 2005 were reported to the HPSC.Of the 276 cases where geographic origin was known, 127 were born in Ireland and 117 were born in sub-Saharan Africa. Data on geographic origin is not available for 42 cases.

But of course none of these people came here for our health service

Thats not evidence of "medical tourism". The only evidence I've ever seen of so called "medical tourism" is of Westerners going to places like India to get cheaper medical service. Bunch of spongers!

sovtek

Delboy05 wrote:

Nigeria without a doubt....Romania and Bulgaria had a lot of asylum applications before they joined the EU and their citizens were no longer then allowed apply.
I think it's the UNHCR report for 2005 or was it 2004 that pointed out that 25% of all Nigerians who applied for asylum in the western world (EU,America/Canada,Australia etc) did so in Ireland.....must be the good weather here that attracted them!!!

...or maybe it's because of a relatively stable economy or living standard. Maybe they are coming here because they see it as pay back for all the Irish spongers that took their land over the last few hundred years or so.

marcsignal

sovtek wrote:

If anyone is a time waster or a chancer in this situation it is most certainly the DoJ.
http://immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=18055

thats an interesting link Sovtec, but it sounds like the guy in question, was being treated just like any Irish long term unemployed person would occasionally be treated, by a social welfare or rent allowance official, and I can speak with some considerable experience in the past, on both counts. So he shouldn't feel he's being singled out for any kind of special grilling.