Legal Bid fails to stop Nigerian family's deportation

sovtek

marcsignal wrote:

thats an interesting link Sovtec, but it sounds like the guy in question, was being treated just like any Irish long term unemployed person would occasionally be treated, by a social welfare or rent allowance official, and I can speak with some considerable experience in the past, on both counts. So he shouldn't feel he's being singled out for any special grilling.

I wasn't even referring to his rudeness TBH.

marcsignal

sovtek wrote:

Maybe they are coming here because they see it as pay back for all the Irish spongers that took their land over the last few hundred years or so.

?? I'm not sure what you mean by this ? Ireland never had any African colonies ? In fact we were a British colony ourselves.
What we did do though, was send many Irish Missionaries to Africa to help the poor victims of famine and war all over that Continent, and we still do.

marcsignal

sovtek wrote:

Thats not evidence of "medical tourism". The only evidence I've ever seen of so called "medical tourism" is of Westerners going to places like India to get cheaper medical service. Bunch of spongers!

If westerners are doing this ? they are certainly not getting any medical treatment in these countries for free, they are paying for it. So maybe they pay less than they would at home, but they still pay for it, and put money into the economy of that country in the process.

walshb

The family were given due process and more than enough effort to prove they were worthy of staying in Ireland. They failed. It's unfortunate for them, but the law is the law and we cannot make excuses for individual cases. This sets a dangerous precedent.

As for Brophy and Flynn, does anyone really believe either of these two people give a flying f*** what happens to any failed asylum seeker, or any asylum seeker, period. Brophy sees Euros and Euros and Euros and Flynn is simply an ego tripper who probably has never done a single act of goodwill or generosity for any Irish person, yet she's 'bending' over backwards to help people from miles and miles and miles away:cool:

Jackie laughlin

I've a great deal of time for law and order and I wish more of our laws were enforced.

I've cosidered the possibility that the mother and indeed the father might be chancers but I'm talking about the kids.

There are some above who seem to find my attitude to nationality incomprehensible. I'll try again: If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it is very likely a duck. Now, if a kid has been here for a few years, gone to school here, settled in, has friends, considers Ireland home, then he or she is effectively Irish.

Let me go further. If a kid comes here, integrates as I've described and learns to speak Irish, then I would consider that child more Irish than an adult born in Ireland who wouldn't bother their arse to learn the language. Ther's a lot more to being Irish than genetics and place of birth.

A friend of mine was married to a French guy who unfortunately died. She makes a point of rearing her kids to have two nationalities and she's right. Incidentally, her 3 kids speak English, French and Irish. One is writing a Masters thesis on Anglo Irish literature.

walshb

Jackie laughlin wrote:

I've a great deal of time for law and order and I wish more of our laws were enforced.

I've cosidered the possibility that the mother and indeed the father might be chancers but I'm talking about the kids.

There are some above who seem to find my attitude to nationality incomprehensible. I'll try again: If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it is very likely a duck. Now, if a kid has been here for a few years, gone to school here, settled in, has friends, considers Ireland home, then he or she is effectively Irish.

Let me go further. If a kid comes here, integrates as I've described and learns to speak Irish, then I would consider that child more Irish than an adult born in Ireland who wouldn't bother their arse to learn the language. Ther's a lot more to being Irish than genetics and place of birth.

A friend of mine was married to a French guy who unfortunately died. She makes a point of rearing her kids to have two nationalities and she's right. Incidentally, her 3 kids speak English, French and Irish. One is writing a Masters thesis on Anglo Irish literature.

Jackie, although I believe they should have been sent back, I do empathise with your view and can see why they wanted to stay. I too would want to stay if I were in their position. But there has to be laws and sometimes there are cases that become quite emotive and sensitive. Does that mean we simply ignore the law and allow every case then that seems a little emotional the right to stay, even though it's legally not correct to do so. If this was allowed the country would be swamped with every sob story you could think of. Those children are being used as pawns in this situation by desperate parents and by low life greedy lawyers and others, who are simply making money out of each case. That's the real sad and disgusting element in this affair

Dublin1600

Jackie laughlin wrote:

If a kid comes here, integrates as I've described and learns to speak Irish, then I would consider that child more Irish than an adult born in Ireland who wouldn't bother their arse to learn the language. Ther's a lot more to being Irish than genetics and place of birth.

Jackie it is ALL about genetics. Irish Father + Nigerian Mother + Born in Japan makes the kid Irish/Nigerian, not Irish/Nigerian/Japanese.

I'm Irish, if I move to Japan, live there 5 years and become fluent in Japanese, am I Japanese? No I'm an Irishman who can speak Japanese. I'm sorry but your logic is flawed.

marcsignal

walshb wrote:

Those children are being used as pawns in this situation by desperate parents and by low life greedy lawyers and others, who are simply making money out of each case. That's the real sad and disgusting element in this affair

Exactly ! I couldn't have put it better myself. I dont know how some of these solicitors can look at themselves in the mirror in the morning. Anything for advancement, publicity and recognition.:mad: and new decking for the house in Dalkey

walshb

Dublin1600 wrote:

Jackie it is ALL about genetics. Irish Father + Nigerian Mother + Born in Japan makes the kid Irish/Nigerian, not Irish/Nigerian/Japanese.

I'm Irish, if I move to Japan, live there 5 years and become fluent in Japanese, am I Japanese? No I'm an Irishman who can speak Japanese. I'm sorry but your logic is flawed.

If born in a country, you can call yourself by its nationality. You do NOT have to be of the same ethnicity....so born in Japan to whatever parents, entitles you to be called Japanese....So a Japanese mother and Japanese father can have a child who is of their ethnicity obviously, but if born in Ireland, he/she is Irish..........with Japanese parentage

Might not look right, but legally in certain countries if you are born there, you are automatically entitled to claim nationality of said country, and have a passport and all rights....You do NOT have to accept a passport or nationality, but it's there should you want it

Nightwish

marcsignal wrote:

Exactly ! I couldn't have put it better myself. I dont know how some of these solicitors can look at themselves in the mirror in the morning. Anything for advancement, publicity and recognition.:mad: and new decking for the house in Dalkey

I'm not defending him or anything, but her lawyer said that he's doing it pro bono. Although his ulterior motive could be that he's getting his name in the media now. Did anyone see the picture of Olivia Agbonlahor and her son in Lagos, under a Guinness billboard. It looked kinda staged to me. Did journalists follow her over there?

purple'n'gold

I really pity the two kids; they are innocent participants in this saga. But their mother is totally to blame for bringing her kids from Italy where they were born, to Ireland for some spurious reason of her own making. And in my opinion the government should have sent them back to Italy, not to Nigeria.

Hotblack Desiato

walshb wrote:

If born in a country, you can call yourself by its nationality.

You can call yourself what you like, but it won't entitle you to citizenship.

So a Japanese mother and Japanese father can have a child who is of their ethnicity obviously, but if born in Ireland, he/she is Irish..........with Japanese parentage

You're kidding, right?

Might not look right, but legally in certain countries if you are born there, you are automatically entitled to claim nationality of said country

Not in this one though.

Tha Gopher

sovtek wrote:

And thousands upon thousands of your fellow countrymen are illegal in America. Does that suspend humanitarian concerns?

In truth, as a realist the UK shouldnt have allowed the Irish unchecked entry. It exaceberated the dire economic situation in the UK in the 80s. It allowed for the free moement of IRA bombers between Ireland and London. The NHS spends god knows how much per year treating immigrant Irish alcoholics and paying disabillity benefits to those unfit to work through alcohol abuse. Even today Labours inaction has allowed for crime ridden traveller campsites to spring up around London.

The British made some woeful errors in regards to us Irish. It was good for us, after all it eased our dole queue and we got rid of some of our dodgier elements. It doesnt mean that just because we benefited from UK governmental disorganisation that we should behave in a similiar manner.

Jackie laughlin

You cannot argue seriously that nationality is ALL about genetics. Paul McGrath? Eamon DeValera? James Connolly? Kevin Sharkey? Phil Lynot? The O'Halpins? Millions of British kids who are genetically Irish? Naturalised Irish citizens with no Irish genes?

No, nationality is ALL about culture.

All cases such as the one described here cannot be described as "sob stories" and dismissed. Cases must be decided on their own merit. Doing the decent thing in one case doesn't mean being swamped in hard cases. Hard cases by definition are relatively rare.

Look at the OUTCOME in this instance. Two kids, who know no home but Ireland, have been exiled to Nigeria with which they have nothing but a genetic connection. This was child abuse.

Venom

walshb wrote:

The family were given due process and more than enough effort to prove they were worthy of staying in Ireland. They failed. It's unfortunate for them, but the law is the law and we cannot make excuses for individual cases. This sets a dangerous precedent.

Couldnt agree more. This case has been a complete farce with the number of appeals and are nothing but a waste of the tax payers money which could be much better used to fix Ireland's own problems such as the homeless which sadly is a subject that gets far to little attention.

marcsignal

Nightwish wrote:

I'm not defending him or anything, but her lawyer said that he's doing it pro bono.

If I'm honest, I dont know what the term 'pro bono' means, but I guess you must mean a freebie ? as opposed to U2 paying for everything Hey ! Maybe Madonna will offer adopt the 2 kids ??;) (Apologies, that probably wasn't in very good taste)
I didn't see the Pic under the Guinness sign though ? There is a big Guinness Brewery in Nigeria, so I figure you're probably right about it making a good photo oppertunity.

Nightwish

Yes pro bono means for free. The picture followed by an article written to tug at the heartstrings, was in the indo, the day after the deportation.

opo

Jackie laughlin wrote:

You cannot argue seriously that nationality is ALL about genetics. Paul McGrath? Eamon DeValera? James Connolly? Kevin Sharkey? Phil Lynot? The O'Halpins? Millions of British kids who are genetically Irish? Naturalised Irish citizens with no Irish genes?

No, nationality is ALL about culture.

All cases such as the one described here cannot be described as "sob stories" and dismissed. Cases must be decided on their own merit. Doing the decent thing in one case doesn't mean being swamped in hard cases. Hard cases by definition are relatively rare.

Look at the OUTCOME in this instance. Two kids, who know no home but Ireland, have been exiled to Nigeria with which they have nothing but a genetic connection. This was child abuse.

It still amazes me that this manner of statement is repeated in so many ways, constantly and unchallenged.

Let’s be clear. It is your opinion that to send a Nigerian citizen, to live amongst Nigerian citizens in Nigeria, is a form of child abuse?

Exactly what sort of savage do you take your average Nigerian for?

And why is your obvious repulsion and "right on" racism, confined to those Nigerian citizens that reside in their home country?

Jackie laughlin

No, that is NOT my view.

My view is that in this case two Irish kids were exiled because they were genetically Nigerian. These kids regarded Ireland as home.

marcsignal

Jackie laughlin wrote:

My view is that in this case two Irish kids were exiled because they were genetically Nigerian. These kids regarded Ireland as home.

And by comparison, for arguements sake, my view is, that the children regarded Ireland as their home, only because their Mother and her Legal Representative, have been continuously appealing the courts original deportation order, keeping them here, and dragging this pretty straightforward case, out for years.
If you want to blame anyone for screwing up the kids, you could start with their Mother.
Couldn't her tactics also be considered a form of child abuse ? using her kids as pawns in this whole issue ?

I could also hazard a guess, that she felt she would have a much better chance of getting into Ireland alone with her 2 children, by tugging at our heart strings.
If that had worked out for her, I'd have put money on Dad making an appearance here soon afterwards, and trying his luck too, on the grounds that it would be better for the children if the family were all together, in Ireland.
I have no legal qualification at all, but I think I can recognise the bleeding obvious when I see it.

JacobM

marcsignal wrote:

Hey ! Maybe Madonna will offer adopt the 2 kids ??;)

Or maybe she will buy a couple of puppies.

Nationality, sub-race, ethnicity and family are often related to location and religion. Up until the invention of cars people stayed in the same place for most of their days. They did not have contact with other people in the same way. Before telephones, if you were out of shouting distance, you were in a different universe. An African would have been viewed as exotic and foreign, an alien.

But generation after generation and there was little change. Change was mediated by the limitations. Going from Africa to Italy to Ireland is extreme. It is outside of the sensible spectrum of nationality. Technology produces an environment that is too pro-biotic. Mistakes that were made in the past do not constitute ground for repeating them.

opo

Jackie laughlin wrote:

No, that is NOT my view.

My view is that in this case two Irish kids were exiled because they were genetically Nigerian. These kids regarded Ireland as home.

Have you any inkling of this case?

Neither kid is Irish.

None of the individuals were deported because of their genetic heritage.

They were deported because they are legal residents of another country, full stop.

They had no valid reason to be here outside of the processing of an extremely vexatious, expensive and ultimately, unsubstantiated claim for political refugee status.

Jackie laughlin

Opo,
Yes, I'm well aware of the details of the case. Read further back in the thread.

Marc,
As I've already said, I'm quite prepared to accept that the parents may be chancers.

My argument refers solely to the kids.

walshb

ninja900 wrote:

You can call yourself what you like, but it won't entitle you to citizenship.


You're kidding, right?


Not in this one though.

You obviously DID not read my full POST....I said in certain countries, being born there automatically entitles you to a passport and citizenship of that country, no matter what you look like, or no matter what your parents look like. It's NOT rocket science. So two Black African people who produce a child and that child is born in Ireland can entitle the CHILD to claim nationality and citizenship through the fact of birth in the country. Now since the recent referendum, it may be a bit different, but there are countries who still use these rules.

Dublin1600

What I would like to know is, why did this woman, who was living safely in Italy, decide to leave a safe country and travel to Ireland alone with two young children. Why did her husband decide to stay alone in Italy.

I don't know the full facts of this case but something doesn't seem right. Reminds me of another Nigerian couple who claimed asylum in Ireland...

"One Nigerian couple registered for benefits here were found to be running a four-star hotel in Lagos, where they were spending long periods."
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2006/0911/1156791558637.html

walshb

Nightwish wrote:

I'm not defending him or anything, but her lawyer said that he's doing it pro bono. Although his ulterior motive could be that he's getting his name in the media now. Did anyone see the picture of Olivia Agbonlahor and her son in Lagos, under a Guinness billboard. It looked kinda staged to me. Did journalists follow her over there?

I wonder would the caring Mr Brophy do the same for his next clients if they were Irish

Pro bono? These people do nothing for nothing...............

Delboy05

walshb wrote:

I wonder would the caring Mr Brophy do the same for his next clients if they were Irish

Pro bono? These people do nothing for nothing...............

the main hearing the family had and lost in the high court - the state paid for both sides as according to Mr Brophy "the judge decided the case was in the public interest". The past few attempts to stop their deportation he's claiming as doing 'pro-bono'.
I'd be very surprised if some government funded do-gooder types such as RAR were'nt throwing him a few quid

walshb

Delboy05 wrote:

the main hearing the family had and lost in the high court - the state paid for both sides as according to Mr Brophy "the judge decided the case was in the public interest". The past few attempts to stop their deportation he's claiming as doing 'pro-bono'.
I'd be very surprised if some government funded do-gooder types such as RAR were'nt throwing him a few quid

You can be sure of one thing.......SOMEONE is paying for it!!!!:(

marcsignal

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Marc,
As I've already said, I'm quite prepared to accept that the parents may be chancers.

My argument refers solely to the kids.

I accept that jackie, and I agree this episode must have been emotional, difficult, confusing and disruptive for the 2 children.
However if this woman is prepared to use her 2 children in a clear act of emotional guilt tripping, for the benefit of the courts and the Irish people, then shame on her.
It just further begs the question, is this the kind of person we should offer citizenship to ? she has been evasive to say the least.
There have been a few foreign posters here, that seem, from what I can gather, far more deserving of our support, and they are, in my view, justifiably pissed off with the mess the system seems to be in.
I still cannot accept the woman in question should be granted entry on the basis you suggest, if she cares that little about her own children, then why should we ? The situation she is in, is entirely one of her own creation.
I also think it's terribly unfair to the genuine cases, because it potentially tars everyone with the same brush, in the ordinary Irish laymans eyes.

purple'n'gold

This woman and her children should have been sent back to Italy long ago.