Jol Out mega-thread [rumours etc]

BERBA

Yiddo

my opinion is rocha is rubbish ...you'll see from my op that i said we had a makeshift defence and as cover for our first choice they are all rubbish ie gardner stalteri rocha...i think jol is to accomodating and has no nasty streak in him like ferguson , mourinho , benitez and thats why i believe he'll never get us to where we want to go. Lets face it he's had 100m in 3 years to spend , i believe any one of us could have done the job that he's done ie get us 5th...he's never won us anything!!!!!. You say give him 2 or 3 more seasons , i believe he's had the time. i hope he turns it around and maybe he should get the benefit of the doubt until all injured players get back but you look at our midfield and compare to current top 4 thats were we needed to strengthen bigtime and MJ let us all down there.

therecklessone

BERBA wrote:

Lets face it he's had 100m in 3 years to spend , i believe any one of us could have done the job that he's done ie get us 5th...he's never won us anything!!!!!. You say give him 2 or 3 more seasons , i believe he's had the time. i hope he turns it around and maybe he should get the benefit of the doubt until all injured players get back but you look at our midfield and compare to current top 4 thats were we needed to strengthen bigtime and MJ let us all down there.

Is Martin Jol doing the buying or is it Comolli?

BERBA

Fairpoint therecklessone

It's probably DC alright doing the buying but isn't it supposed to be BMJ's team. Surely he should be telling DC who whe wants and how the team needs strenghtening.. MJ has done well for us in the last 2 seasons but as we all know he's a bit tactically naive when it comes down to getting those extra points in tight games that we need to get that elusive top 4 spot. Should we get rid of this DOF and head coach mentality and just have a manager that buys his own players if the above is the case with us?

therecklessone

BERBA wrote:

Should we get rid of this DOF and head coach mentality and just have a manager that buys his own players if the above is the case with us?

Thing is, nobody knows for sure if that is the case.

I said on the other thread I expect Comolli to consult Jol on spending priorities, one thing of note is Comolli's comment to a fan's forum last year that we (the fans) "are obsessed with a left winger". I do feel that Jol's preference is to play a narrow midfield with attacking full backs, and that in the absence of all three LBs (plus our best three CBs) and Lennon, the attacking impetus is lost. Until he gets more of the squad available for selection, I don't think we'll see the best of what Jol has to offer this season.

Morgans

A genuine top class keeper would save spurs at a minimum 8 points a year. IMO. Robinson can shot stop and bring his feet up spectacularly, but he is a very poor keeper for an international.

Jol has questions to answer but I would prefer a lot of money on a good keeper - Robinson wasnt his purchase. I can see why people would want him out.

Zokora needs to come good for any spurs midfield to function properly. He is improving but isnt the player that Spurs thought they had bought.

John W

I have never been so optimistic either, but to be honest this is not because of MJ - It is because of the board and the players we have - I really do think with these resources a better manger will do better than MJ - AGAIN, that is not to say he is a bad manager, he is not, but he has gone as far as he can go. NOW, lets get the lads back from injuries and do the best we can do with the current manager and team. COYS!

Dublin Spur

yiddo_til_i_die wrote:

what the **** have you been watching for the past three years???
We've improved every season under Jol, from just missing out on euro qualification, to finishing 5th and getting knocked out of the cups, and qualifying for europe, to finishing 5th again getting to the semis of one cup and the quarters of another as well as an quarters of the UEFA Cup.

buddy you don't have a notion!

There's no need to get excited just because my opinion differes from your's, we're all Spurs folk.

To answer your question I have been watching probabaly the same thing as you for the past 3 years. A Spurs team that has come a long way from the dark days of 1992 to 2004. No argument about that, but that's not the issue.
It's about the need for constant improvement on what we have and where we are going in the grand scheme of things.

Both 5th place finishes were nice and were decent achievements. Both were also very different, the 1st one felt horrible at the time after 6 monts in 4th place and last season we scraped into 5th on the last day which was great. But in all honesty, when I think about it there's no real difference in 5th and 7th these days apart from a few grand from the Premier League and bragging rights over Evertonians and Villa supporters. It's all about the top 4 and 5th is "the best of the rest" as Jol put it at the end of last season. Also I can't say I was too happy about loosing in the cups the way we did.

2-0 up at half time at home to arsenal reserves only to be shown a football lesson on our own patch in the 2nd half. 2nd leg was already a forgone conclusion after that.

3-1 up with 30 min to go at Chelsea, Jol takes off Lennon & Berbatov, and brings on Mido and Gardner, Chelsea must have enjoyed that, they obviously did as they went on to level the score. Nigthmare, heartbreaking stuff

The Euro run was a lovely experience but just like the domestic cups, as soon as we faced proper opposition, we get knocked out.

So if all that is good enough to keep you happy and contented then good for you. I can see why you want Jol to stay. Because as long as he's around we won't break into the champions league and we won't win a major cup. He has proved this beyond any doubt as far as I'm concerned. If there are people who can do a better job, then why not get them in insted of flogging a dead horse ??

We need major changes in personal in 3 or 4 areas of the 1st team.
We need a manager who can install a mental & physical toughness that we've been lacking for as long as I can remember.
We need a proper captain who can pick the team up when things aren't going to plan.

If these areas are addressed then we'll be in good shape for a crack at the big boys, until then we'll always be a shft touch and will always finish somewhere between 8th and 5th with the odd cup semi-final. That's not good enough for me. Simple theory, don't know what all your fussing was about.

John W

Well said Dublin Spur.......... I think a good few of us are all on the same sheet of music here. Some are either tone deaf, or unable to hear the music, or see the writing on the wall, or understand the end game.....okay enough metaphors. We are all basically Spurs fans, we know the past and we are looking forward to the future. I am sure you and I both wish to hell we were thick as two short planks about this and dead wrong and BMJ took us all the way to the FA and CL finals, and if he does great. Point is we all want Spurs to do well; we just have varying opinions about what it is going to take to do it. Bottom line is and will always be…………..C.O.Y.S

northlondon17

delete this thread....beat derby fulham arsenal nd jol will b the best thing since sliced bread....!!!!!!!:mad: :mad:

Leinstersqspur

Seriously, fickle fickle fickle...... Will I say it again?! fickle!

We need a left footed player? I wonder has MJ realised this? He hasnt said anything? Or maybe its not MJ who the players? (was that a light bulb i saw?).....

We have a sporting director, his job is to scout the creamiest players around town, recruit the players of tomorrow and develop our academy amongst others. Yet the majority of his buys seem to be based onj potential which is not for the here and now......

Funny then why MJ does not make any comment about the signing of players or maybe its because it not his job as the spurs hierarchy make the decisions and need only consider his recommendations.

Every spurs fan on the planet realises the need for a left footer and MJ ios no different. The only difference is that he knows that the decisions arent his while alot of fans seem to call for his head for this very reason.....

The board have a policy that MJ must abide by..... We do not sign the likes of petrov because our wage structure dictates. We must move player on any additions can be made as with any good business.

With Mido gone I fully expect one of Taylor, Davies or Van der Vaart to be arriving shortly.

To label us a team with no physical or mental aggression? When we beat Chelsea 2-1 last season after going down 1-0? Finishing 5th again after loosing our best player to the future champions.

It makes me wonder how long some people have been spurs fans? I sure cant remember how long its been since weve had such confidence down the lane. We loose 3 left backs/wingers and 3 centre halves to injury and all of a sudden MJ is to blame?

Get a grip!! When were all singing after we rout Derby I look forward to more positive threads!! Backing the big man all the way!!

BRING THE RAMS TO THE SLAUGHTER!!

Dublin Spur

Leinstersqspur wrote:

Seriously, fickle fickle fickle...... Will I say it again?! fickle!

We need a left footed player? I wonder has MJ realised this? He hasnt said anything? Or maybe its not MJ who the players? (was that a light bulb i saw?).....

We have a sporting director, his job is to scout the creamiest players around town, recruit the players of tomorrow and develop our academy amongst others. Yet the majority of his buys seem to be based onj potential which is not for the here and now......

Funny then why MJ does not make any comment about the signing of players or maybe its because it not his job as the spurs hierarchy make the decisions and need only consider his recommendations.

Every spurs fan on the planet realises the need for a left footer and MJ ios no different. The only difference is that he knows that the decisions arent his while alot of fans seem to call for his head for this very reason.....

The board have a policy that MJ must abide by..... We do not sign the likes of petrov because our wage structure dictates. We must move player on any additions can be made as with any good business.

With Mido gone I fully expect one of Taylor, Davies or Van der Vaart to be arriving shortly.

To label us a team with no physical or mental aggression? When we beat Chelsea 2-1 last season after going down 1-0? Finishing 5th again after loosing our best player to the future champions.

It makes me wonder how long some people have been spurs fans? I sure cant remember how long its been since weve had such confidence down the lane. We loose 3 left backs/wingers and 3 centre halves to injury and all of a sudden MJ is to blame?

Get a grip!! When were all singing after we rout Derby I look forward to more positive threads!! Backing the big man all the way!!

BRING THE RAMS TO THE SLAUGHTER!!

If I were fickle I wouldn't travel to as many games as I do. I would just sit at home and bitch about them on the telly.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend that everything is alright that's your own business. I however can see that we are in a diabolical situation in some areas and we are light years away from properly challenging top 4. And top 4 is all that matters, not 5th, 6th or whatever.

It's all about expectations I suppose, yours are lower than mine, but after 2 top 5 finishes, then going out and spending nearly 40mil quid and selling no body I reckon I am entitled to think we could mount a serious challenge. Guess I was wrong and therefore I want change. DOF system scraped, Jol & Comolli out and someone like Mark Hughes appointed as club manager bringing in his own people and starting with a clean slate.

Club need to be brave and need to act quickly.

Just my opinion, not trying to upset anybody, just being honest about it.

galinka

Plenty of disagreement after 2 games then.

Tomorrow will tell a lot -need a performance and a win of course.

I'm going over and reporting back on Saturday midnight.
No holds barred.

ruiseal

Didn't it take Ferguson almost four seasons, and was very nearly sacked,
before he got united on the road to where they are now?
Given a little more time, I think BMJ will do something similar at WHL.
(Sorry, just my opinion).

I-Bleed-White

If all it takes to win the league is a recognised manager why is Jaque Santini not still manager ? How many top class recognised managers did Real need to go through before they got themselves back were they were before?

It's all well and good that people expect results with the money we spent but plenty of good teams have spent money on good players that didn't quite do the job...Veron, Kleberson, Jemba Jemba, Schevchenko, REBROV the list goes on. Lets not forget we are not the only ones who are spending money.

Where would united be now if they had chosen to relieve Fergie of his duties after a 3rd place cupless finish (which was the opposit to progression for united). It's all well and good talking about how much better we would do replacing the only manager in the last decade to progress the club at all but it's all in theory. Things work out alot differantly in reality.

The only thing that MJ and Commolli have done wrong that we can all agree on is not spent enough on the CM and yet we haven't seen Boatang play yet. Gardner and Stalteri are planks but they are just cover and we are not United or chelsea were we can attract good players only to play as cover.

Lets just HAMMER the Rams and be happy.

COME ON YOU SPURS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

therecklessone

I-Bleed-White wrote:

If all it takes to win the league is a recognised manager why is Jaque Santini not still manager ? How many top class recognised managers did Real need to go through before they got themselves back were they were before?

On the other hand I give you Claudio Ranieri, terribly nice man who brought Chelsea to the brink of a title (and CL success) but deemed not the required standard.

Mourinho came in...shall I finish that sentence?

Playing devil's advocate here.

I-Bleed-White

therecklessone wrote:

On the other hand I give you Claudio Ranieri, terribly nice man who brought Chelsea to the brink of a title (and CL success) but deemed not the required standard.

Mourinho came in...shall I finish that sentence?

Playing devil's advocate here.

In fairness. Nobody thought Ranieri was nice until he almost achieved alot and got kicked to the curb. Mouriniho also got 900 Billion to spend (hypervolet before I get pulled up). Ask yourself honestly. Do you want to buy sucess or earn it. No right or wrong answer.

Snake Plisken

show's how much you know Berba!!!!! how dare you doubt MJ's abilities as a manager. Great performance against Derby today and nice to see the players race to the bench after the first one went in.

Snake

therecklessone

Tomorrow's back pages suggesting that Sevilla's coach Ramos will replace Jol very shortly.

Too tired to think about this right now.

therecklessone

I've posted this on the general soccer forum:

These rumours need to be seen in context, this has not been prompted by two bad results against Sunderland and Everton.

Stories of disquiet at board level about Jol's ability have been around for over a year, coming to a head last March when allegedly Martin was instructed by Daniel Levy to play Berbatov away to Chelsea in the Cup (Jol had planned on resting him, and eventually took both him and Aaron Lennon off at 3-1)

I've been wary of believing the rumours because I felt that certain agendas were being pursued through the media and also through supporters networks, to undermine Martin Jol and by extension Daniel Levy. I believe that certain senior members of the hierarchy at Spurs want to buy out ENIC and take control themselves, one of those people is Paul Kelmsley the man pictured meeting Ramos this week. I wonder was Kemlsley there as an offical of Spurs or of his own accord? I know he has contacts who post on Spurs message boards, and I take what they say with a pinch of salt...

I don't have a problem with Spurs deciding Martin Jol is not the man to take the club to a higher level, I do have a problem with the timing of this (if true). Jol should have been replaced during the Summer if necessary, not 3 games into the season. I'd like Jol to get at least another year, I like the man and think he has done a great job for Spurs in getting us to the verge of the top 4. That said, I'd liked Ranieri at Chelsea but Mourinho came in and they won two back to back titles...

What saddens me is the power play in the Tottenham board room, and the fact that Martin Jol might be a casualty of that not to improve the team's chances but to allow one group gain the upper hand. If my suspicion is proved correct, the words of Keith Burkinshaw seem apt: "There used to be a football club over there"

If Martin Jol is replaced by Ramos to bring us on a level then I'll be a happy man, if it's just another power play by Kelmsley to wrest control from ENIC then we're back to the bad old days. Time will tell.

BERBA

Snake

Give me a break!...i for one was dancing around the place yday no matter who was in charge!!!!!.. i would love to see Jol succeed ...but it was only derby county..if there was any team that Jol needed to play to get a win then it was Derby!..he obviously took on board what everyone on this forum was saying get routledge and hud in there..get width on both flanks...i always have been a fan of JJ but was beginning to wonder what he was about with his start to season..he was superb yday...Our big tests are utd , gooners in next 3 weeks..Jol will get another few games but it doesn't bode well for him with spurs officials in seville on friday talking to juande ramos..that must be a contingency plan in case thing go wrong in next few games...Jol and DC arent seeing eye to eye..and jol is questioning DC over 2 bad buys as he sees it last year zokora and rocha both players bought by DC..But lets be frank if its a straight fight between DC and MJ...Only one winner in Levys eyes and thats the DOF...

Resent that comment on how much i know ..i've been following them since late seventies mate when we were never a winning team!!!

coys...let hope for more of the same v Utd next sunday.

Snake Plisken

Well Berba, for someone who's supported Spurs since the late 70's I don't understand how you can jump on the Jol out bandwagon, I've supported them since 1980 and have seen mostly down times, but to suggest that we get rid of Jol so soon into the season is downright silly, ok yesterdays game was against a poor team, but we could take some positives from it, next week will be a real test, but if Utd get a poor result against City then I fancy us getting something from the game.

Snake

BERBA

Agreed a lot of positives can be taken out of yday ..but imo i think MJ tactics aren't the best at times (we all remember being 3-1 up v chelski and MJ taking Berb off and not going for the juggular at the time) and i personally think he's not the man to take us to where we want to go ...i.e.top 4 ...granted give the man a chance he's got us 5th 2 seasons running...but with the bobs we now have ...5th isn't good enough anymore ..and with the start we've made were now playing catchup again like last season..we need to push on with the money invested in the team...you and i know he'll be judged in the next month with some tricky games ahead...he'll have all our support becasue at the end of the day we all have a common interest ..totrtenham hotspurs fc

COYS...Would be so sweet to get something at OT next week.

Snake Plisken

Well according to the sunday mirror looks like some of our board agree with you as they've been spotted in a hotel with the Sevilla boss on Friday.

Snake

Dublin Spur

therecklessone wrote:

Tomorrow's back pages suggesting that Sevilla's coach Ramos will replace Jol very shortly.

Too tired to think about this right now.

No smoke without fire.
Would be amazed if Ramos wasn't in charge next summer at the latest.

John W

northlondon17 wrote:

delete this thread....beat derby fulham arsenal nd jol will b the best thing since sliced bread....!!!!!!!:mad: :mad:

Not sure I quite understand your quote, but if you are saying after the derby game we would have changed our minds, you are gravely mistaken. Derby put in a sad performance, and as far as I am concerned this is a championship side, and not a great one. It was GREAT to to get the win, but we still have a LOT of problems we need to deal with at our club.:cool:

Wendell Gee

I'm lazy as sin, but I posted this in "quick point about to-day and it seems as relevant here.
Three games in, it's possible to look at things a little more calmly. Was I nervous before to-day? yes I was. A win was necessary. How do I feel now? Better- but next week will tell a lot. Flat track bullies are not enough anymore. Our players have to step up and commit next week to a 96 or 7 minute performance.
So far? I see it like this.
SUNDERLAND
An awful game, a poor performance, nearly an acceptable result.
EVERTON
a much better game, nearly a decent performance, a poor result. There were a few illuminating moments. Another goal from a set piece. A second goal from deep inside our box. An awful 20% pass into the centre circle from Zokora leading to the free kick for the third goal. Chimbonda standing hand on hips at least once in the second half.
Good points? Rocha looked commited and competent. Kaboul looked very decent before his injury. Malbranque never hid- nothing seemed to work for him.
Events can overtake Managers. Jol went with 3 left backs in the squad, and seemed to be planning to play malbranque in front of one. Then they all get injured. Lennon is missing from the other wing. We are narrow and stodgy.

I would have played 4-3-3 with Berbatov and Keane playing Bent in against Sunderland- hit them on the break with speed. Against Everton, we showed so little in the second half. Remember Chelsea in the Cup at Stamford Bridge? They were three one down at half time, but just kept lifting the tempo and forcing the pace until the goals came. They did the same against us in the league at the Lane, and were a little unlucky not to pull it back. We need that attitude.

Taarabt looks like a premiership footballer. Tainio is not. Lee YP was never as loved as when he was injured. He's welcome back. Steed's 2 goals and Jenas's one may free tem up a little. Huddlestone must learn his lesson from Sunderland- you don't piss around on the edge of your own area. Rocha is the best 5th choice CB in the premiership, and we don't need Curtis Davies.

We cannot judge Martin Jol until Boetang and Bale come in, and Rose/Taarabt/Berchiche/Dervitte get a chance. They must be the missing link, or we buy it now. Personally, I would leave Jol there for the rest of the season unless things fall to ****. He needs to decide on his best team, and to have real options on his bench. I would still prefer our situation to that of Everton. Loads of reason to believe.

John W

I assume there has been no official response from the club?

hotspur

John W wrote:

I assume there has been no official response from the club?

Here's a paste of an email sent today by a member of the board to a well known Spurs online guy:

Andrew, as I know you are always in the chatroom, can I provide you with the current position please.

Re Ramos, Klinsmann etc - We are not negotiating with any managers about the replacement of Martin Jol at this time. We are an ambitious club and it is a realistic ambition that we should look to CL qualification, so anything that looks like we may not make it is bound to lead to speculation and we fully expect that. No manager's future is decided on one or two games and it is insulting to suggest that this board would do that.

Re Martin and Damien - they have a good working relationship - the football management board works - no player comes into this club that Martin doesnt agree to - it would be ludicrous to suggest that money would be spent on players Martin did not favour and whom he would not then play, Damien has brought talent to the club with Martin's approval - and we would not have players like Berbatov and Bale without him to mention but two (there are obviously many more).

Re left position - always difficult as evidenced by the fact that the majority of prem teams (Liverpool a notable exception) play a right footer on the left. We have Lennon, Malbranque (who played a blinder on the left yesterday) Bale and Keane. So we have many options and yet we will still look as depth is a key factor of the squad.

Please let me know if any rumours running amok that I have not answered here - will be happy to! best regards,

galinka

hotspur wrote:

Andrew, as I know you are always in the chatroom, can I provide you with the current position please.

It's not me!!

By the way i cannot believe any Director of a public company would behave like this - i'm just stunned by the idea, no particular comment on contents.

galinka

Wendell Gee wrote:

Personally, I would leave Jol there for the rest of the season unless things fall to ****. He needs to decide on his best team, and to have real options on his bench.

I'm no great fan of Jol - tactics, selections etc baffle me - but i agree i would make no changes unless things fall apart.
I'd be more hopeful after Saturday - Derby were awful but we were very good and played with great determination in the opening 20 minutes.

Maybe Hudd for Zak is the right call.