What is the meaning of life on Earth?

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote:

Something in me tells me we have a higher purpose than mere existence and procreation.

That is because evolution has designed you that way.

As far as evolution is concerned you do have "higher purpose" than mere existence and procreation.

Not sure what this has to do with God though?

kelly1 wrote:

My belief in a higher purpose make a purely natural view of the world very unpalatable.

Why?

Do you think a natural view of the world says that existence and procreation is the only reason for existing?

We atheists would be a very miserable bunch of people if that was the case. Why would I have a job?

That is actually closer to what Christianity teaches.

kelly1 wrote:

Life is worth living because there is a higher purpose which is to live a life full of endless joy with God eternally.

This is an argument I never understood.

You say this life should have purpose and meaning, but your entire religion teaches that it doesn't actually beyond simply existing until you die and go to heaven.

If this life is so pointless why do you just take the riskiest job you can find and wait until you get killed and your proper "life" begins?

Scofflaw

Tim Robbins wrote:

Brilliant post. But I thought Anglican was also Apostolic.

They are, and they're not technically a Protestant Church, but call themselves a via media between Catholicism and Protestantism. They acknowledge the Apostolic tradition, but not the authority of Rome - and perhaps unsurprisingly, hold the Bible in a regard midway between the Catholics and the Protestants, acknowledging that it is the 'rule and standard' of faith, but not necessarily inerrant.

cordially,
Scofflaw

MooseJam

Scofflaw wrote:

Not at all - you're forgetting that the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox) is Apostolic.
cordially,
Scofflaw

lol you greatly overestimate my knowledge of Christian matters, still every day is a school day, even if you don't like the corriculum

Tim Robbins

Scofflaw wrote:

They are, and they're not technically a Protestant Church, but call themselves a via media between Catholicism and Protestantism. They acknowledge the Apostolic tradition, but not the authority of Rome - and perhaps unsurprisingly, hold the Bible in a regard midway between the Catholics and the Protestants, acknowledging that it is the 'rule and standard' of faith, but not necessarily inerrant.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I don't think Lutherans think the Bible is imerrant. I have also heard that Calvin also thought it was not inerrant.
Comments...

Scofflaw

kelly1 wrote:

I think too many atheists are just world-weary and cynical and kowtow to peer pressure, afraid to show any signs of a belief in the supernatural.

Oh aye, because we certainly wouldn't get any support from the....billions of theists in the world? Hmm, no, hang on, that doesn't sound right.

You may be thinking of teenage Goths. I can assure you as a 40-year old atheist that peer pressure is not an issue. Most of the people I've ever associated with have either been theists of one kind or another, or haven't wanted to think about it in any way. I can count the number of people I know to be atheists using only my fingers (base 6, to be on the safe side).

Similarly, cynicism and world-weariness? These, in my experience, if they're not faked, lead to apatheism, not atheism.

cordially,
Scofflaw

kelly1

Scofflaw wrote:

The Catholic church, on the other hand, is free to treat it as the work of men.

No, the bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Christ promised that He would remind them (via the HS) of all that He had said while on Earth.

Tim Robbins

kelly1 wrote:

No, the bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Christ promised that He would remind them (via the HS) of all that He had said while on Earth.

But surely you are into circular logic there.
Q. How do we know there is the holy spirit?
A. Because it says it in the Bible.
Q. But how do we know the Bible is accurate?
A. Because it is the word of the holy spirit?
Q. How do we know there is the holy spirit?
A. Because it says it in the Bible.
Q. But how do we know the Bible is accurate?
A. Because it is the word of the holy spirit?

Scofflaw

kelly1 wrote:

No, the bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Christ promised that He would remind them (via the HS) of all that He had said while on Earth.

Apologies - left that bit out. The work of men inspired by the Holy Spirit would be a better description. It's still quite different from the inerrant and literal word of God.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sandwich

The OP question has no meaning. Life neither has nor has not meaning. It just is.

bonkey

kelly1 wrote:

It's hard to deny that countless miracles have occured over the years.

Can you supply accurate and unquestionable details of any one of these miracles, including sources of verification?

If not, the denial is easy.

bleg

in the words of Livia Soprano

"It's all a big nothing, what makes you think you're so special?"

Pinker

"Hello all,

I'm just curious, according to atheists and agnostics, what is the purpose and meaning of our lives on Earth?

Consider that a generation after you die you will mostly be forgotten.

Why live life? What gives life a purpose?

Kind regards,
Noel."

Noel,
I have an endless number of points I would love to discuss with you, but I will try and keep it on topic and brief,...

1. Assuming you are a religious man possibly even a roman catholic, what will you say to "God" if you get to heaven and it transpires it's a god from a different religion?....But if you are one of the fortunate few and it is your chosen God what do you think he say to all those who worshipped other gods and denied his/her existence?...And lastly why does this God need such adoration, why the need to worship?


2.Do you adhere to what the church teaches? When the roman catholic church admitted limbo for unchristened babies no longer existed did you too agree it didnt exist, so did all these babies suddenly ascend to heaven?...

3. Long before telecommunication existed, or even say perhaps in times pre-language, did these plucky souls get to heaven or did god deny them the pleasure of eternal bliss since they couldnt practice religion?

4.And lastly why would anyone wish to exist for eternity, now that sounds like my idea of hell!...Please share your thoughts,


Warm regards,
Pinker

5uspect

Pinker wrote:

I have an endless number of points I would love to discuss with you, but I will try and keep it on topic and brief,...

Says it all for me. So much to do, so little time.
Why waste too much time wondering what it's all about?

Gegerty

kelly1 wrote:

If you assume that the big bang was just a random event, then there really isn't much meaning to life.

I can think of one purpose - to observe. If there is no living thing in the universe then the universe would not exist. How can it exist if there is nothing there to say it exists?

Gegerty

I've a question for the op - According to you the meaning of life is to get into heaven. so once there what is the meaning of that life? Or is it a big secret only revealed once you get there? So why bother with this life in the first place? Is it an entrance exam? If so from where were we selected? If God created us in this life, why would he test us to get into heaven? He's just created us, it would only make sense if we were selected from a different life previous to this one.

Bisar

5uspect wrote:

Why waste too much time wondering what it's all about?

I can't believe this question is still being asked. Any child in the schoolyard could answer it for you.

You put your left leg in
You put your left leg out
You put your left leg in
And you shake it all about.
You do the Hokey Cokey and you turn around
And THAT, my friend, is what it's all about

Zombrex

Gegerty wrote:

I've a question for the op - According to you the meaning of life is to get into heaven. so once there what is the meaning of that life?

Often wondered that myself. What the hell (excuse the pun) are you supposed to actually do in heaven, for eternity?

It seems that the purpose of heaven is to simply stop you from dying. Which to me simply suggests that heaven was invented because of the fear of death, and that those who invented it didn't get very much further than "but you won't die" in their thoughts.

The idea that we should devote this life to getting into the next life where we do nothing except exist in some quasi-eternal state, seems ridiculous.

And yet the theists complain we have no purpose or meaning to our lives? :rolleyes:

kelly1

Pinker wrote:

"Hello all,

I'm just curious, according to atheists and agnostics, what is the purpose and meaning of our lives on Earth?

Consider that a generation after you die you will mostly be forgotten.

Why live life? What gives life a purpose?

Kind regards,
Noel."

Noel,
I have an endless number of points I would love to discuss with you, but I will try and keep it on topic and brief,...

1. Assuming you are a religious man possibly even a roman catholic, what will you say to "God" if you get to heaven and it transpires it's a god from a different religion?....But if you are one of the fortunate few and it is your chosen God what do you think he say to all those who worshipped other gods and denied his/her existence?...And lastly why does this God need such adoration, why the need to worship?


2.Do you adhere to what the church teaches? When the roman catholic church admitted limbo for unchristened babies no longer existed did you too agree it didnt exist, so did all these babies suddenly ascend to heaven?...

3. Long before telecommunication existed, or even say perhaps in times pre-language, did these plucky souls get to heaven or did god deny them the pleasure of eternal bliss since they couldnt practice religion?

4.And lastly why would anyone wish to exist for eternity, now that sounds like my idea of hell!...Please share your thoughts,


Warm regards,
Pinker

Pinker, can I suggest that you start a new thread or threads with the above question. This one is cluttered enough as it is!

Regards,
Noel.

Pinker

Consider it done Noel, looking forward to your reply

The Mad Hatter

Wicknight wrote:

Often wondered that myself. What the hell (excuse the pun) are you supposed to actually do in heaven, for eternity?

It seems that the purpose of heaven is to simply stop you from dying. Which to me simply suggests that heaven was invented because of the fear of death, and that those who invented it didn't get very much further than "but you won't die" in their thoughts.

The idea that we should devote this life to getting into the next life where we do nothing except exist in some quasi-eternal state, seems ridiculous.

And yet the theists complain we have no purpose or meaning to our lives? :rolleyes:

Sit there praising God. What could be more fun?

I did read a long article by...er...either Beckett or Joyce, can't remember which, basically saying how, despite the fact that we all strive for a work-free life, if we had it, we really wouldn't want it.

kelly1

Gegerty wrote:

I've a question for the op - According to you the meaning of life is to get into heaven. so once there what is the meaning of that life?

According to the Apostle Paul:

"But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him."

Our ultimate destiny is union with God. It's not that we become God but we become like God and share in His divinity and glory.

Gegerty wrote:

Or is it a big secret only revealed once you get there?

No, it's written in the bible that Christ shared in our humanity so we can share in His divinity.

Gegerty wrote:

So why bother with this life in the first place? Is it an entrance exam?

It's a question I've often asked and I mean to find out. The angels unlike us can see God directly. They are not subject to temptations and don't have to suffer the difficulties in life that we do. When some of the bad angels "fell", they were cast straight into Hell without a second chance because they rebelled against God by their pride despite His infinite goodness, omnipotence etc.

God created us purely out of His goodness and love. He wants us to share in His divinity. This can only happen if we choose to reject our own corrupted will (effect of original sin) and choose to do God's will. So I think life is a test in a way but it's primarily a gift from God.

Gegerty wrote:

If so from where were we selected? If God created us in this life, why would he test us to get into heaven?

It's not so much a test as an exercise in free will. We are free to choose or reject God. God's love would be seriously flawed if He coerced us into loving Him.

Gegerty wrote:

He's just created us, it would only make sense if we were selected from a different life previous to this one.

Sorry, I don't get your point here.

God bless,
Noel.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote:

Our ultimate destiny is union with God. It's not that we become God but we become like God and share in His divinity and glory.

And then what do we do? What meaning does our existence have then?

Because TBH it all sounds a bit boring. What exactly does one who is joined to God do all day for eternity?

kelly1 wrote:

No, it's written in the bible that Christ shared in our humanity so we can share in His divinity.

But what does sharing in His divinity actually achieve?

kelly1 wrote:

God created us purely out of His goodness and love. He wants us to share in His divinity. This can only happen if we choose to reject our own corrupted will (effect of original sin) and choose to do God's will. So I think life is a test in a way but it's primarily a gift from God.

Well yes but God gave us our own corrupted will. Because last time I checked Adam at the fruit (that God placed in the garden knowing he would). Yet we all suffered.

Seems rather contradictory to claim that God loves us all and wants us to share in his divinity, yet he decided to corrupt all of our natures so very few actually do this.

kelly1 wrote:

It's not so much a test as an exercise in free will. We are free to choose or reject God.

Can you reject God in heaven? And if not does that mean you have no free will in heaven?

kelly1 wrote:

God's love would be seriously flawed if He coerced us into loving Him.

The only reason we don't all love him easily is because he gave us this corrupted nature of sin as punishment of Adam (who seems to have lived for 1000s of years and have lots and lots of sex with the perfect woman, Eve, so I think the rest of us got the short end of the stick there)

rickybutcher

Just to be a pedant, Darwin has already explained why life has evolved on earth. And life seems to just exist for it's own sake. Just because. By our nature we live to provide a stable family/group/society whatever for the next generation which we produce. That's all it is really.

We are merely animals that have evolved the ability to speak and to communicate ideas to each other via speech. That is why we are sitting at our computers even considering this question. We're just animals, smart animals with very complex brains, but at the same time little more than ants who'll be washed away in a flood or something. That's hard to accept but it's the truth. I remember a line from a Yeats poem:

"Consume my heart away; sick with desire
And fastened to a dying animal
It knows not what it is; and gather me
Into the artifice of eternity."

Sadly for Yeats and for us we'll never get to fully understand what exactly the Universe is or what exactly the earth is, why there is order in the Universe and planets, why are there systems of life, the universe, galaxies, stars, planets filled with oxygen and hydrogen which give rise to life, why that life becomes unbelievably complex and we end up with all sorts of different forms of life under every rock on the planet. Well, there is one semi-explanation, why is there life? Why is there just not a Universe filled randomly with different gasses and rocks? Why does it come to the order we see it in and not just any old random order? There is life because we are here to ask the question - why is there life? We can ask why it is the way it is because if it was any other way we wouldn't be able to ask the question. Simple really. A question I do ask myself is why isn't there just nothing at all, it's a big question and it can hit you hard (in a thinking sense) if you think hard enough about it, it's a bigger question than why is there life on earth.

The Universe may have expanded and contracted a bazillion times before we got to where we are today, it may do so another bazillion times before we get to where we are today again. Earth and life on earth could simply be a product of chance.

Hopefully science can work out what exactly the nature of the Universe is and why everything is the way it is but I doubt that will be in our lifetime.

Can we stop dragging this topic into silly religious pedantry, which means absolutely nothing, take it to one of the religion boards. God doesn't exist, at least not in any traditional religious sense. If God existed Justin Lee Collins wouldn't have his own TV show and there wouldn't be thousands of completely innocent people dying in the most horrible way imaginable every single day of the week, every single day of the year. That's just a fact.

Dades

Nice post, up until the last paragraph.
You don't enjoy drawing this question out, but others do, so leave it at that.

kelly1

With respect Ricky, you're working from the very big assumption that God doesn't exist. I for one am not going to limit myself to being a random and meaningless product of a giant explosion. To do this is a real tragedy. Our dignity is far higher than all the rest of creation because of the gift of divine grace in our souls. We are created in God's "image and likeness" but of course sin can destroy this grace.
The German theologian Matthias Scheeben says that what happens when divine grace is created in a human soul is far, far greater that the creation of the entire universe. This happens every day in baptism and in the sacrament of reconciliation. Divine grace should be more highly prized than all the riches in the world combined. Sadly, the vast majority of people don't know about this.

Regards,
Noel.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote:

And then what do we do? What meaning does our existence have then?

Because TBH it all sounds a bit boring. What exactly does one who is joined to God do all day for eternity?

Wicknight, you must have a very limited understanding of God to say this. Don't you think an omnipotent God is capable of creating ever-new and unending joy in our souls? Boring would be out of the question! Don't you ever have a longing to break out of this finite world into something far bigger and beautiful? Don't you ever stop and think "Is this all there is to life"?

With respect, you're artificially limiting yourself to what you can see and observe. Put hard, cold logic and science aside for a minute and imagine what perfect happiness would be like. Imagine your soul filled with a love that penetrates to the very core of your being and leaves you feeling totally alive and joyous.

Isn't the thought of such an experience very appealing? Please don't tell
me you wouldn't want this!!

Regards,
Noel.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote:

Don't you think an omnipotent God is capable of creating ever-new and unending joy in our souls?

Certainly, but it still sounds boring.

kelly1 wrote:

Don't you ever stop and think "Is this all there is to life"?

Well I think "this" is quite a enough already.

kelly1 wrote:

Put hard, cold logic and science aside for a minute and imagine what perfect happiness would be like.

When ever someone says that I am reminded of the scene in "Star Trek - Generations" when Picard meets Kirk in the Nexus, a realm existing out side of the universe made of imagination and perfect happiness.

Kirk, in the Nexus, is on his farm with a girl he was going to marry but never did in the real world. Everything is perfect. His house is perfect. His girl is perfect. His favorite horse is in the stable. As Picard arrives Kirk is about to take the horse for a ride.

Picard is trying to convince him to come back out of the Nexus into the normal universe, but Kirk is distracted by the prefect world around him. Why would he want to leave this perfect existence? As Picard chases him, Kirk goes to jump a hedge with his horse, and as with everyone else, does it perfectly. After he has landed he stops and looks around to Picard with a puzzled look on his face.

He says that every time he jumped that hedge before he was scared he would fall, except for this time. There was no fear. He wanted to jump the hedge and he just knew he would do it. He realises that being scared he would fall was part of what made the experience before, and realises that in this "perfect" existence he will never feel fear or want or need again.

He returns to the normal universe with Picard.

The point being is that nothing is really perfect.

While I am up in heaven being filled with perfect joy by God there are those in hell or back on this planet suffering. I would never want the distraction of my happiness to blind me to those who still suffer. If I was actually in heaven I would spend my entire time arguing with God to let those in hell up into heaven.

kelly1 wrote:

Isn't the thought of such an experience very appealing? Please don't tell
me you wouldn't want this!!

I wouldn't want it if accepting it meant losing my humanity.

The Mad Hatter

Wicknight wrote:

I would never want the distraction of my happiness to blind me to those who still suffer.

Quoted for truth.

Kelly1, I know you were directing this at Wicknight, but

Don't you ever have a longing to break out of this finite world into something far bigger and beautiful?

I really think that the world is quite big and beautiful enough.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote:

The point being is that nothing is really perfect.

God is perfect.

Wicknight wrote:

While I am up in heaven being filled with perfect joy by God there are those in hell or back on this planet suffering. I would never want the distraction of my happiness to blind me to those who still suffer. If I was actually in heaven I would spend my entire time arguing with God to let those in hell up into heaven.

No, if you do get to Heaven, and I sincerely hope you do, you will see the wisdom of God's decisions. We don't have God's wisdom and scope of vision so we don't understand His ways. What can God do if someone rejects Him? God never infringes our free will.

Zillah

kelly1 wrote:

With respect Ricky, you're working from the very big assumption that God doesn't exist. I for one am not going to limit myself to being a random and meaningless product of a giant explosion. To do this is a real tragedy. Our dignity is far higher than all the rest of creation because of the gift of divine grace in our souls. We are created in God's "image and likeness" but of course sin can destroy this grace.
The German theologian Matthias Scheeben says that what happens when divine grace is created in a human soul is far, far greater that the creation of the entire universe. This happens every day in baptism and in the sacrament of reconciliation. Divine grace should be more highly prized than all the riches in the world combined. Sadly, the vast majority of people don't know about this.

What a fuzzy world you live in Noel. Do you apply such self-pleasing nonesense to every aspect of your life? If your morning newspaper is swiped, do you sit there reading thin air because life is nicer if you didn't have your paper stolen? If you don't have enough money to pay the bills, do you just insist you do have enough money and ignore all the consequences? When it rains on you, do you just choose to believe you're still dry? It must be very liberating to simply decide what the universe is like according to your desires.