Why do so many drivers overtake on the inside

Donald Fagen

Donald Fagen wrote:

Because you're allowed a tolerance of 10% of your speed.

Ask any driving instructor. E.G: In a 30mph speed zone, you can hit 33mph and the tester is fine with that. same with doing 44mph in a 40mph zone, etc.

ballooba

nialler wrote:

the words "couldn't be arsed" and "to badly hungover" come to mind.

Maybe that's why you felt the need to post personal abuse at 2:30am this morning. Next time you don't understand something don't take your frustration out on someone else. Next time you have a safe gap to move in to the driving lane, make everyone's lives easier and do it.

Stark

Donald Fagen wrote:

Ask any driving instructor. E.G: In a 30mph speed zone, you can hit 33mph and the tester is fine with that. same with doing 44mph in a 40mph zone, etc.

I'd imagine it would depend on what tester you got. You probably have a little leeway at 30mph as 50kph=31mph so you can have the needle slightly over 30mph. Also 60kph = 38mph but I imagine most testers are fine with you doing 40mph. I can't see them being fine with you doing 44mph consistently though.

Any 10% leeway you do get, would be more to do with the tester having difficulty reading your speedo at an angle rather than condoning speeding.

prospect

Just travelled the N7 from newlands to Kill Village & back in the last 2 hours.

I had this thread in mind on my journey, and noted the following:

En route south, I was in the inside lane, doing 100Km/h. The entire lane as far as I could see was totally empty, and the other lanes were quite busy. At one stage, I passed a convoy of 14 vehicles travelling in the centre lane, with the truck at the back tailgating, and the second car tailgating the first car, which was a 30something lady doing about 70Km/h.

I dunno....


I also noted that I saw 8 people using hand held mobile phones on the return journey.

nialler

ballooba wrote:

Maybe that's why you felt the need to post personal abuse at 2:30am this morning. Next time you don't understand something don't take your frustration out on someone else. Next time you have a safe gap to move in to the driving lane, make everyone's lives easier and do it.

Understanding hasn't anything to do with it balloba, I understand the maths/physics quite well. If fact what I should have done was said approaching/vehicle in front as opposed to oncoming I will in future strive to ensure that any grammatical errors are rectified. And my apologies. And the next time there is a safe gap, and safe in my opinion, I'll certainly do it. Anyway all I wanted to do was not disengage my CC so within a second or two I'd matched and surpassed the vehicle's speed that was behind me got in front of the truck and promptly pulled in.

I always will and have driven in the left lane, and I wouldn't be the first one to say I've made some mistakes when overtaking, we're all guilty (well possibly not you) of making errors of judgement but as I've gotten older and 2 points on my licence there's no need to a) speed and b) take unecessary risks you generally pass the speeder on the quays back into dublin or in a garage filling up again.

ballooba

nialler wrote:

I always will and have driven in the left lane, and I wouldn't be the first one to say I've made some mistakes when overtaking, we're all guilty (well possibly not you) of making errors of judgement but as I've gotten older and 2 points on my licence there's no need to a) speed and b) take unecessary risks you generally pass the speeder on the quays back into dublin or in a garage filling up again.

I never said I don't make mistakes. I make plenty but I make sure I learn from them. Your point about cruise control displays laziness btw and shows lack of consideration for other drivers. In fact, I don't think cruise control is ever suitable for Irish roads. Maybe hold off on the personal abuse in the future too.

nialler

My god we agree that it's not for irish roads, laziness possibly, what I'm actually trying to achieve or find out is the maximum mpg (currently 34.3) but it's never really been on long enough ie and hour or two on a motorway.

mobpd

AndrewMc wrote:

And the same NRA that put up gantry signs on the Naas Road telling (or very strongly suggesting) people to use the middle or right lane unless taking the next exit.

Has anyone else here contacted the NRA about these misleading (pun intended) signs on the N7?
I emailed them a few times this year and at first they said the signs were being reviewed (great idea after they had paid for them to be implemented ...!!) and then I was informed that "due to driver feedback" the signs were gong to be changed during the summer....I have seen no changes yet ..they didnt reveal to me what the new signs would be

GreeBo

Donald Fagen wrote:

Ask any driving instructor. E.G: In a 30mph speed zone, you can hit 33mph and the tester is fine with that. same with doing 44mph in a 40mph zone, etc.

The magical 10% tolerance is on your speedo.
Your car will be at or up to 10% *below* the displayed speed.
Otherwise you sue the manufacturer.
However if you have replaced the wheels with different sized ones then its your own fault.
If a guard stops you saying "but I Was within 10%" will get you a laugh and a ticket.

Andrewf20

One thing I seen on a regular basis on 3 2 laned roads (M50 etc) is a train of cars sitting in the fast line with a completely vacant slow lane for maybe 400metres. Im very aware of this and will move into the slow lane once overtaking is completed, but I cant get over the amount of folks who dont do this. I reckon this adds to frustration, leading to undertaking. Was in France this year and this nonsense didnt happen even once to my recollection.

Also when I was doing lessons for my test with a driving school a few moons ago, I was told that undertaking was ok, not if the fast lane was stopped, but if it was moving slower than you? Hmmm.

Andrewf20

One thing I seen on a regular basis on 2 laned roads (M50 etc) is a train of cars sitting in the fast line with a completely vacant slow lane for maybe 400metres. Im very aware of this and will move into the slow lane once overtaking is completed, but I cant get over the amount of folks who dont do this. I reckon this adds to frustration, leading to undertaking. Was in France this year and this nonsense didnt happen even once to my recollection.

Also when I was doing lessons for my test with a driving school a few moons ago, I was told that undertaking was ok, not if the fast lane was stopped, but if it was moving slower than you? Hmmm.

Stark

Andrewf20 wrote:

One thing I seen on a regular basis on 3 2 laned roads (M50 etc) is a train of cars sitting in the fast line with a completely vacant slow lane for maybe 400metres. Im very aware of this and will move into the slow lane once overtaking is completed, but I cant get over the amount of folks who dont do this. I reckon this adds to frustration, leading to undertaking.

It's also a "fun" experience trying to get back into the overtaking lane when you've cleared the 400m and the cars in the overtaking lane decide to seal you in.

Andrewf20

Stark wrote:

It's also a "fun" experience trying to get back into the overtaking lane when you've cleared the 400m and the cars in the overtaking lane decide to seal you in.

Very true. A common sight.

bauderline

Whilst it is true that there is no such thing as 10% error margin on your speed that allows you to drive at 110 in a 100 zone the GARDA have to allow for inaccuracy in your speedo as it is not calibrated.

Hence if such a matter went to court the GARDA is unlikely to secure a conviction as you have a reasonable defense in terms of your uncalibrated speedo.

FYI - The majority of the GATSO cameras are set to 75 mph (not sure of the km/h equiv) which allowed over a 20% error margin before flashing. If they haven't been burnt out that is....

baud.

bbability

Witnessed possibly the worst driving ever at 7am on Wednesday Morning southbound on the M1 just passed Balbrigan/Lusk Junction. Both lanes moving steadily. 3 trucks on inside lane andaround 6 to ten other vehicles overtaking and a good speed (between 100 and 120km/h) for that time of the morning. Looked in my rear view to see a car approaching at speed. It was a northern registered Audi A4. It moved from inside lane into Hard Shoulder and must have drove in the Hard Shoulder for a good 1/4mile. I was astonished. Not a cop in sight. Although I get into Drumcondra and there's 3 hiding at the entrance to the Bishop's Palace collecting tax with 100m of a bus lane to go.. Its a joke. Priorities totally up their arse

Stark

bbability wrote:

Although I get into Drumcondra and there's 3 hiding at the entrance to the Bishop's Palace collecting tax with 100m of a bus lane to go..

Good. I'm always pissed off by people cutting me off in the bus lane when I'm trying to take a left turn up ahead. About time they got caught out.

bauderline

oh look, the nordy bashers have arrived.....

Seth Brundle

bauderline wrote:

Whilst it is true that there is no such thing as 10% error margin on your speed that allows you to drive at 110 in a 100 zone the GARDA have to allow for inaccuracy in your speedo as it is not calibrated.

Hence if such a matter went to court the GARDA is unlikely to secure a conviction as you have a reasonable defense in terms of your uncalibrated speedo.

Thats crap!
The gardai don't have to allow for anything. If you exceed the limit they can and do catch people for being slightly over the limit. If your speedo is out then tough titties - its your problem and nobody elses hence why its not a valid legal excuse.
However, the gardai usually apply a bit of discretion and common sense.

bauderline wrote:

FYI - The majority of the GATSO cameras are set to 75 mph (not sure of the km/h equiv) which allowed over a 20% error margin before flashing. If they haven't been burnt out that is....

source?

bauderline

Mr Bannon,

My sources for points one and two ? A Garda !

I also do legal work and whilst a Garda may choose to prosecute you for going a little bit over the speed limit, if you choose to contest it in court, it will likely be thrown out if you are only 5 - 6 mph over the actual speed limit.

Its hard fact that most odometers are inaccurate, that is why the police must have calibrated units and vascar type systems in order to bring prosecutions that can hold legally.

Its not crap its hard fact, what grounds do you have to dispute this please ?

If you only knew the amount of driving offence related cases being thrown out in the courts every day you might have some idea why the Gardai don't even touch this grey area stuff.

Also "tough tittie" is not admissable as evidence in a court of law. The judge will throw you out of court.

mikemac

bauderline wrote:

My sources for points one and two ? A Garda !

I also do legal work and whilst a Garda may choose to prosecute you for going a little bit over the speed limit if you choose to contest it in court you it will likely be thrown out if you are only 5 - 6 mpg over the actual speed limit.

What has mpg go to do with a speeding offence? Did a garda tell you this?

bauderline wrote:

Its hard fact that most odometers are inaccurate, that is why the police must have calibrated units and vascar type systems in order to bring prosecutions that can hold legally.

Its not crap its hard fact, what grounds do you have to dispute this please ?

Again, an odometer is for measuring distance travelled so what does that have to do with anything?
You're correct, it may be inaccurate but can't see what this has to do with speeding

Seth Brundle

bauderline wrote:

Mr Bannon,

My sources for points one and two ? A Garda !

I also do legal work and whilst a Garda may choose to prosecute you for going a little bit over the speed limit, if you choose to contest it in court, it will likely be thrown out if you are only 5 - 6 mph over the actual speed limit.

Its hard fact that most odometers are inaccurate, that is why the police must have calibrated units and vascar type systems in order to bring prosecutions that can hold legally.

Its not crap its hard fact, what grounds do you have to dispute this please ?

If you only knew the amount of driving offence related cases being thrown out in the courts every day you might have some idea why the Gardai don't even touch this grey area stuff.

Also "tough tittie" is not admissable as evidence in a court of law. The judge will throw you out of court.

ok, whatever! :rolleyes:

bauderline

mic,

mpg should be mph, a typo which I did correct earlier.

And yes odometer should be speedometer, another screw up by me, was a little tired this morning, and heh no one is perfect.

Stark

bauderline wrote:

Its hard fact that most odometers are inaccurate, that is why the police must have calibrated units and vascar type systems in order to bring prosecutions that can hold legally.

Yes, but they all overestimate the speed, therefore you can't use your speedometer as an excuse if you're caught speeding. There are things you can do your car that could cause the speedometer to underestimate, such as fitting non standard wheels but then that's your tough titty.

bauderline

Again,

In a court of law it does not matter if the speedometer overestimates the speed, the FACTS are that is is an inaccurate and uncalibrated instrument. No one can prove if it overestimates or underestimates the speed easily and the driver certainly has no way of knowing UNLESS they fit a calibrated unit.

Moreover on an analogue instrument the reading may be differ depending on what angle you actually view it from.

The above points make it very difficult to prosecute minor infractions of the speed limit in a court of law.

bauderline

Another thing...

The whole "non-standard" wheels argument doesn't hold water any longer. I can walk into almost any showroom an order a brand new car with with either 16" 17" 18" allow wheels. Think about that, not aftermarket boyracer junk, but genuine factory fitted manufacturer parts.

"Surely the manufacturer would not supply me with an option that would make my speedometer inaccurate." cough cough ...

Andrewf20

bauderline wrote:

Another thing...

The whole "non-standard" wheels argument doesn't hold water any longer. I can walk into almost any showroom an order a brand new car with with either 16" 17" 18" allow wheels. Think about that, not aftermarket boyracer junk, but genuine factory fitted manufacturer parts.

"Surely the manufacturer would not supply me with an option that would make my speedometer inaccurate." cough cough ...

Agreed. Because usally with bigger rims, the tires then have smaller sidewalls to compensate, making the overall diameter the same!

Del2005

bauderline wrote:

Another thing...

The whole "non-standard" wheels argument doesn't hold water any longer. I can walk into almost any showroom an order a brand new car with with either 16" 17" 18" allow wheels. Think about that, not aftermarket boyracer junk, but genuine factory fitted manufacturer parts.

"Surely the manufacturer would not supply me with an option that would make my speedometer inaccurate." cough cough ...

They'd just re-cal the speedo for the different wheels and tyres, it's easy enough when making the car.

I always assumed the Gardai only had to form an opion you where speeding thats why our speed guns don't have to be calibrated, unlike the UK where they have to provide calibration documentation. I think someone posted that ages ago, will look later if I get a chance.

bauderline

Well obviously judges don't reckon to much to Garda opinion then, considering a whole raft of prosecutions got kicked into touch last year when they discovered the model of speed gun purchased by the Gardai could not provide a print out (hard copy) of the drivers speed. Whoops.

Do NOT attempt to persuade me that these devices are not calibrated, they are.

Manufacturers rarely recalibrate the speedo for different sizes of alloy requested by the end customer, the minimal error in the instrument accuracy introduced by the wheel change is of no consequence to them, an uncalibrated speedo is not designed to be that accurate.

Just looking at my own speedo on the way home, its on a 545i and the km/h readings are the smaller numbers on the inner circle of the speedo. Anyone who thinks they can tell the difference between 50 and 55 km/h on that thing is living in tipsy wipsy lala land !

Seth Brundle

Del2005 wrote:

They'd just re-cal the speedo for the different wheels and tyres, it's easy enough when making the car.

I always assumed the Gardai only had to form an opion you where speeding thats why our speed guns don't have to be calibrated, unlike the UK where they have to provide calibration documentation. I think someone posted that ages ago, will look later if I get a chance.

I would doubt that Speedos are re-calibrated at the factory - in most cases alloys are put on by the dealer.
Irish speed detection devices were exempt from question under the law - thats why there was no need to request a calibration cert. Search the forum again, the legislation has been posted before.

bauderline wrote:

Well obviously judges don't reckon to much to Garda opinion then, considering a whole raft of prosecutions got kicked into touch last year when they discovered the model of speed gun purchased by the Gardai could not provide a print out (hard copy) of the drivers speed. Whoops.

When was this and why was it not reported in the media? Under the Road Traffic Act 2004 (IIRC), the loophole about issuing of a certificate was removed. Nowadays, gardai don't need to show you anything. They can effectively pull you over and say that you were speeding.

bauderline wrote:

Do NOT attempt to persuade me that these devices are not calibrated, they are.

Im sure they are but how frequently?

bauderline wrote:

Just looking at my own speedo on the way home, its on a 545i and the km/h readings are the smaller numbers on the inner circle of the speedo. Anyone who thinks they can tell the difference between 50 and 55 km/h on that thing is living in tipsy wipsy lala land !

...and what? If you can't read your speedo then it does not stand as a valid excuse for exceediung the limit: you could get some glasses, get a speedo that you can read or you can drive slower to be sure you are within the posted limit!Saying that your car may not be roadworthy (because you can't read the speedo properly) is not an excuse!

BrianD3

If the Gardai are indeed allowing a few km/h over the posted limit before pulling people it has nothing to do with inaccurate speedos in cars. I have never hear of a speedo in a factory spec car underreading but if one did underread and the driver was caught speeding as a result - that's not the Garda's problem. The driver can take it up with the manufacturer if he likes.

Now of course there is an error/uncertainty associated with the Garda's speed measuring device. It would be very bad practice for the Gardai to not take account of this and try to prosecute someone for 1 km/h over the limit if the error on the gun is +/- 5 km/h.

If the laser guns are assumed to be perfectly accurate and their calibration cannot be questioned in court then that is a disgrace.