EPT Barcelona

cardshark202

Wow. Forgive me for posting POKER advice in a POKER forum. You're being a total drama queen now though I guess you won't see this cos you're on a break from boards.
One last thing though, if you can ill afford to waste these tourney buyins, and you say you have had to support your family through poker, you should be doing your best to improve your game. Seriously. But if you're too lazy and too easily offended by criticism, then you should get paddy power to pay you in cash instead.

Captain Tom

cardshark202 wrote:

Wow. Forgive me for posting POKER advice in a POKER forum

leave the real strat to mr.flash. mods please ban this fool.

Goodluck2me

cardshark202 wrote:

Wow. Forgive me for posting POKER advice in a POKER forum. You're being a total drama queen now though I guess you won't see this cos you're on a break from boards.
One last thing though, if you can ill afford to waste these tourney buyins, and you say you have had to support your family through poker, you should be doing your best to improve your game. Seriously. But if you're too lazy and too easily offended by criticism, then you should get paddy power to pay you in cash instead.

i must admit that Cardshark is right here, he pointed out to you, in a way which you may have found offensive (which is his prerogative as he is trying to help you) some very helpful advice. i could cross quote a few thing you have said like, " i wanted to take all his chips so i called" but then in other parts you say "i knew if i pushed he would call with crap". if this is the case then PUSH and let him call you with crap!
Your thinking in the hand was flawed inmy opinion and i wouldnt be a bit offended by someone like CS or anyone else for pointing it out, as you may find yourself in a similar situation in tournaments to come and will be glad of it.
Also Kaka your comments sound that those of a kid whose sweets have just been stolen, people need to grow up a touch and realise that its not a popularity contest its a poker forum.

RoundTower

Fatboydim wrote:

Yes - Why do I get to play these tournaments? - Because I write for Paddy Power. I am a professional writer and I asked them to pay me in tournament entry fees instead of cash. That works for me and them. It would be the same as an IT techie guy going and fixing their computers and asking to be paid in tourney fees. They do not pay anything other than the fee by the way.
...
But let me just make one thing very clear - I worked for that buy in, and in that sense that 8k was mine and I can ill afford to throw away 8k at the moment. There are many many reasons why I would have liked a result in that tournament and all of them add up to a lot more than 8k. I have had a pretty rough couple of years professionally and at times have supported my family through poker - and that is tough. So you know - glib comments and petty bickering is like treading dirt into my dreams.

Len
If this is really the situation and you could take cash instead of tourney entries, I honestly recommend you take the cash. Apart from the massive variance of playing the tournies, even getting 5k in cash is probably a better deal for you than 8k in EPT entries.

DeVore

he pointed out to you, in a way which you may have found offensive (which is his prerogative as he is trying to help you)

I disagree with that, you can help and still not be offensive.

I think CS's post was too blunt, right or wrong pokerwise. There are "things you say" and "ways you say them" and they arent necessaraily related.

CS's post to me sounded like "I've carte blanche to be mean here because I'm right" and before I even got this far in the thread it had made me wince. Its not the first time either though CS is not alone in that regard by a long shot.


DeV.

Fatboydim

goodluck2me wrote:

i must admit that Cardshark is right here, he pointed out to you, in a way which you may have found offensive (which is his prerogative as he is trying to help you) some very helpful advice. i could cross quote a few thing you have said like, " i wanted to take all his chips so i called" but then in other parts you say "i knew if i pushed he would call with crap". if this is the case then PUSH and let him call you with crap!
Your thinking in the hand was flawed inmy opinion and i wouldnt be a bit offended by someone like CS or anyone else for pointing it out, as you may find yourself in a similar situation in tournaments to come and will be glad of it.
Also Kaka your comments sound that those of a kid whose sweets have just been stolen, people need to grow up a touch and realise that its not a popularity contest its a poker forum.

Joe - Had I asked for the advice you may have a point. Others including yourself have pointed out you wouldn't have played it that way. That's fine.. But no one is taking into account the actual situation and history of events at that table. I have had days and hours upon hours to decipher how I played that hand and why I did what I did. But live it took seconds and was instinctive. I pushed because I thought I had the best hand and there was a chance he would cll. I had hands earlier in the game where I could have knocked two players out holding a flush in one instance and a straight in the other. This was the first time in the whole game I pushed and I wanted to look weaker than I was [I didn't know he caught his card] I guaruntee you that if he had a weak Queen he would have called that push. I am 90% certain he would have called with bottom pair and even his pocket fours as it looked for al the world like I had missed my draw. Now in the abc's of poker it looks horrible. But it is a live tournament situation and there is no doubt I got unlucky. I o not know how people can be so vehement in their criticism without resource to all the facts which includes all the hands I played prior to that. In fact I am more angry with myself that I didn't put John Kabaj all in when I hit my straight against him earlier in the tournament. But there was a possible flush on board so I didn't even though I knew it was only a remote chance he held it. And he would certainly have called. The history of that hand and others adds up to why I felt a push was a good move. Had I pushed with the best hand and he had not called I would have still been happy. [I'd have been in the tournament]

Think back to some of the hands we played against each other in the IO. I don't think I put a foot wrong that day.

But I've had the temerity to question Reggie on the manner of his post [And it is the manner and not the content] I've also noticed with Reggie that when I ask him specifics he never elaborates. It's easy to kick someone when they make a wrong decision, but some people at least take their boots off before doing so.

To answer RT's point you are of course right Mrs Dim would certainly agree - But I've been in with very solid chances of making not only the money but final tables in some big events. The 1st Dublin EPT I made the money but got very unlucky when Bad Girl Pham chased down a straight to crack my aces - even though I was betting very heavy. Had they held up I would have made final table. Vienna everyone knows about. The Caribbean a rebuy tourney with a lot of pros playing saw me finish fourth. I should have won it - and there are numerous others such as Cork, Luton, Caesars. I'm lucky I can do this - But I'm not on a freeroll. The reason I do it is because I seriously believe I can win. Am I a perfect player? - No. Can I take criticism?
Of course. Do I have to take it or agree with the criticism? No I don't. - I'm pretty happy and comfortable with the way I played and what I did - Even after all the nonsense - Reggie said no way would David Williams call a push on the turn. he said "Would" that's a definite - If he said "Should" the statement may have had more value. It is this presumption that annoys me.

I don't have to expose myself to this kind of thing - but I have done and I do. I could turn it around and say - Here you go guys learn from my mistakes. :rolleyes:

What I am saying is I don't think I will do so in future by posting on here. Anyone who reads my column knows I am not precious about this game... I would have thought that's quite refreshing.

My last word on it... Promise.

kakak1

DeVore wrote:

I disagree with that, you can help and still not be offensive.

I think CS's post was too blunt, right or wrong pokerwise. There are "things you say" and "ways you say them" and they arent necessaraily related.

CS's post to me sounded like "I've carte blanche to be mean here because I'm right" and before I even got this far in the thread it had made me wince. Its not the first time either though CS is not alone in that regard by a long shot.


DeV.

This sums up exactly what I've been trying to say.

There is a way of doing it.

Goodluck2me please take note, etiquette applies to life and not just to a poker table

The Al Lad

kakak1 wrote:

This sums up exactly what I've been trying to say.

There is a way of doing it.

Goodluck2me please take note, etiquette applies to life and not just to a poker table

kakakaka did u win that Irish open satellite ???

kakak1

The Al Lad wrote:

kakakaka did u win that Irish open satellite ???

no, blew it in the last 3 or 4, better not show the hands here

Hitman Actual

DeVore wrote:

I disagree with that, you can help and still not be offensive.

I think CS's post was too blunt, right or wrong pokerwise. There are "things you say" and "ways you say them" and they arent necessaraily related.

CS's post to me sounded like "I've carte blanche to be mean here because I'm right" and before I even got this far in the thread it had made me wince. Its not the first time either though CS is not alone in that regard by a long shot.


DeV.

My radar must be way off, because I honestly didn't see that in cardsharks first post.

kakak1 wrote:

Of course maybe there is a little jealously in Len getting a wonderful opportunity of playing in an EPT event, especially when it didn't cost him.

This is a bullsh!t statement. I doubt anyone who replied "negatively" in this thread cares in the least. Having met Len a couple of times in the Fitz, I for one am delighted that he gets a chance to play in these big events.

Fatboydim wrote:

I used to wonder why people like KP - Daitho and even Padraig and Scott Gray don't post that much on here

Is there really a 'bad' reason why Daithio and KP don't post here much these days? I'd love to know.

cardshark202

lenny_leonard wrote:

Is there really a 'bad' reason why Daithio and KP don't post here much these days? I'd love to know.

Its because of me obv.

DeVore

Why put yourself in the line of fire of snipers?

Which is a great shame...

DeV.

Moro Man

cardshark202 wrote:

Depends if you want to learn and improve or just continue playing the same game in 10 years time. And by telling you what you did wrong I am being nice.

I think if you read Len's post he was TELLING how he went out so that people would know. I doubt very much was he asking for some arrogant head up his arse merchant to point out ( if any ) flaws in the hand.

valor

lol Reggie you head up your arse merchant

Goodluck2me

kakak1 wrote:

This sums up exactly what I've been trying to say.

There is a way of doing it.

Goodluck2me please take note, etiquette applies to life and not just to a poker table

maybe if you knew me you could comment on that.

fatboydim wrote:

Joe - Had I asked for the advice you may have a point. Others including yourself have pointed out you wouldn't have played it that way. That's fine.. But no one is taking into account the actual situation and history of events at that table. I have had days and hours upon hours to decipher how I played that hand and why I did what I did. But live it took seconds and was instinctive. I pushed because I thought I had the best hand and there was a chance he would cll. I had hands earlier in the game where I could have knocked two players out holding a flush in one instance and a straight in the other. This was the first time in the whole game I pushed and I wanted to look weaker than I was [I didn't know he caught his card] I guaruntee you that if he had a weak Queen he would have called that push. I am 90% certain he would have called with bottom pair and even his pocket fours as it looked for al the world like I had missed my draw. Now in the abc's of poker it looks horrible. But it is a live tournament situation and there is no doubt I got unlucky. I o not know how people can be so vehement in their criticism without resource to all the facts which includes all the hands I played prior to that. In fact I am more angry with myself that I didn't put John Kabaj all in when I hit my straight against him earlier in the tournament. But there was a possible flush on board so I didn't even though I knew it was only a remote chance he held it. And he would certainly have called. The history of that hand and others adds up to why I felt a push was a good move. Had I pushed with the best hand and he had not called I would have still been happy. [I'd have been in the tournament]

i thought you believed he would call had you pushed the turn, which is why i was surprised you didnt. n/m anyway you werent looking for analysis so its far to let the thread die a quick death, i do believe however knowing most parties involved that reggie was only trying to help albeit in not such a friendly manner and no offence should be taken.

=DevoreI disagree with that, you can help and still not be offensive

yes, but its surely a better alternative to no help at all.

cardshark202

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

DeVore

Thread sanitisized, Lenny, Phantom, Moroman, no more of that.

Lucky, if the criteria were applied to all people then there would be about 6 people able to use this forum. I dont see how poker ability is tied to the need for civility.

Goodluck2me, there is no need for an alternative. There is only a need for some manners. Civility is not an option on Boards.

DeV.

Hyzepher

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I remember when I used to baulk at the curtness of Reggie ,Valor, and HJ's posts. That was before I realised that their contribution around here is invaluable (understatement).

However, and in my opinion of course, Len's contribution to this forum (and I have met Len in person a couple of times and found him to be a very affable gentleman btw) is not invaluable. His abscence from this forum would not reduce it's value as a learning tool.

This thread should help to clearly demonstrate why the above holds true.

---

The "community" element to the forum is nice, and does have merit. But pats on the back and "hard luck mate" should not be wanted by us as poker players when we **** up. As serious poker players, we should be looking for someone to tell us we played a hand (or a series of hands, or a session) like a ****ing moron. The truth hurts. But if we want to be successful and improve we need to be honest with ourselves and look to improve.

Do we want an Irish player to win one of these ****ing big tournaments? If we do then we all need to get off our highhorses immediately and stop expecting everyone to say please and thank you - and be greatful when someone with a much better understanding of the game than us gives freely of their time to post advice.

The above statement shows why the Poker forum is so hard to break into for the new player. People like LL seem to think that the forum is for aspiring poker professionals who are out to win as much money as possible and appear in as many high profile tournaments as they can. Well for them it is, but for the most part it is here to provide an outlet for the Irish poker player, in whatever way they want.

To openly say that one person is most valuable to the forum than another is downright disrespectful and immature. people post for different reasons and people take different things from posts - we are not all the same.

If this forum is to turn into an elitist pile of ****e then maybe we are better off out of it and leave LL and other likeminded people here to plot for global poker domination - after all we have nothing to offer anyway!!

The_Chopper

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I remember when I used to baulk at the curtness of Reggie ,Valor, and HJ's posts. That was before I realised that their contribution around here is invaluable (understatement).

However, and in my opinion of course, Len's contribution to this forum (and I have met Len in person a couple of times and found him to be a very affable gentleman btw) is not invaluable. His abscence from this forum would not reduce it's value as a learning tool.

No offence meant here before I say this and I am not calling into question my poker skills if any (this is just plain observation):

While people like HJ, Reggie and yourself Llyod, to use your examples (I don't know Valor), might give good sound advice which is invaluable to alot of people I question it and here's why.

If you guys know how to play perfect poker or close to - and know the right moves to do at the right time (90% to always) how come the majority of your HH are posts from 1-2 and 2-4 games? Surely such experts would have cracked these levels after 2-4yrs play. Talk is cheap people - show me results (I and many others judge results on tourny cashes and levels that you consistantly play in cash).

Now don't get me wrong I think HJ in one of the best tourny players I've seen play (for levels upto €500 buy in) and think he should play them more.

Reggie you advice is generally sound - however it is sharp and mostly lacks any real substance. The one time I played with you I was impressed, however I felt you were constantly itching to get your stack in as the aggressor preflop with rubbish.

Llyod - never played with you, but find this statement ridiculous. From what I understand you're a good tourny player.

Back to original poster Len - I think if people were as honest as he is on this forum we could all learn a lot more. I also liked Nicky O D's honestly last year, it's not all chocolates and roses, everyone looses and everyones advice and stories are welcome and appreciated (by me anyway).

For the record I currently play 1-2 myself and I am in the process of rebuilding my bankroll (started at a big minus figure). I also play sit and goes, while they are boring I find them good for money. At my height I had a BR of around 50K which I spent, loaned out and lost. Biggest games I regularly played were as high as 5-10 for a period and my biggest buy in tourny was 3k. Some people think I'm good - some think i'm bad but that's me.

Hawk Eye

eoghan104

The_Chopper wrote:

No offence meant here before I say this and I am not calling into question my poker skills if any (this is just plain observation):

While people like HJ, Reggie and yourself Llyod, to use your examples (I don't know Valor), might give good sound advice which is invaluable to alot of people I question it and here's why.

If you guys know how to play perfect poker or close to - and know the right moves to do at the right time (90% to always) how come the majority of your HH are posts from 1-2 and 2-4 games? Surely such experts would have cracked these levels after 2-4yrs play. Talk is cheap people - show me results (I and many others judge results on tourny cashes and levels that you consistantly play in cash).

Now don't get me wrong I think HJ in one of the best tourny players I've seen play (for levels upto €500 buy in) and think he should play them more.

Reggie you advice is generally sound - however it is sharp and mostly lacks any real substance. The one time I played with you I was impressed, however I felt you were constantly itching to get your stack in as the aggressor preflop with rubbish.

Llyod - never played with you, but find this statement ridiculous. From what I understand you're a good tourny player.

Back to original poster Len - I think if people were as honest as he is on this forum we could all learn a lot more. I also liked Nicky O D's honestly last year, it's not all chocolates and roses, everyone looses and everyones advice and stories are welcome and appreciated (by me anyway).

For the record I currently play 1-2 myself and I am in the process of rebuilding my bankroll (started at a big minus figure). I also play sit and goes, while they are boring I find them good for money. At my height I had a BR of around 50K which I spent, loaned out and lost. Biggest games I regularly played were as high as 5-10 for a period and my biggest buy in tourny was 3k. Some people think I'm good - some think i'm bad but that's me.

This is a very good post fair play.

I read the forum to learn about the game but also for the community spirit and banter, both of whick I think are very important elements of the Forum.

The elitist attitude from some people I find hilarious and the bum licking that goes on between these posters is hilarious too. I just ignore them and move on. If you dont like it dont read it.

Everyone reads the forum for different reasons and the sooner people realise that the easier it will be for people to just get along.

smurph

eoghan104 wrote:

This is a very good post fair play.

I read the forum to learn about the game but also for the community spirit and banter, both of whick I think are very important elements of the Forum.

The elitist attitude from some people I find hilarious and the bum licking that goes on between these posters is hilarious too. I just ignore them and move on. If you dont like it dont read it.
Everyone reads the forum for different reasons and the sooner people realise that the easier it will be for people to just get along.

Fully agree with this......... Between bum licking and the "Who the Fu*ck are you and exactly what have you won" comments are really starting to piss me off big time. Alot of posters on this thread need to take a really big reality check.

Hitman Actual

DeVore wrote:

Thread sanitisized, Lenny, Phantom, Moroman, no more of that.

Okay, I was a bit OTT. But I do believe that the person my comments were directed to is here simply to troll. Every single one of his posts have been a snipe at someone, usually a regular.

bill_ashmount

LuckyLloyd wrote:

However, and in my opinion of course, Len's contribution to this forum (and I have met Len in person a couple of times and found him to be a very affable gentleman btw) is not invaluable. His abscence from this forum would not reduce it's value as a learning tool.

I've been reading this forum every day for the last 3 years +. I know which group i'm in, i read, don't really post. I'd be really interested in which group you think you are in. Do you think your absence would reduce it's value?


Edit to say, I find Len's contributions very good and entertaining. There are certain posters which I like to read, only for them this place would be a disaster.
Current favourite is Macspower, although even his bad beats are starting to crush my spirit

DEEP THROAT

DeVore wrote:

Lucky, if the criteria were applied to all people then there would be about 6 people able to use this forum.

DeV.

Surely you mean 6 people who think they would be able..........

5starpool

It's been a while since this type of thread has appeared I suppose. There are a few things that are true about the poker forum.

1. There are some good players here who don't post any hand advice, it is to pass the time more than anything.
2. There are some good players who post advice, and it is usually in a helpful and correct manner.
3. There are some good players who post advice, but it can be direct, blunt, and sometimes unnecessarily so in a manner that could be improved upon.
4. There are bad players who do all the above as well (except about the good advice).
5. There are some people who just use here to read and learn or pass the time but don't post.

It would be great if no one ever said anything offensive, or no one ever took offense and only correct and proper advise was offered when needed. However, if people stop posting it isn't going to improve in any way anyhow. It seems at times that this forum is turning into a place where only standard advice will be given and got as the better players stop posting, and this will be in addition to all the non strategy stuff that there is more and more of nowadays. Personally I think this place will be much the poorer for that, but you can't force anyone to post, and I am certainly not going to name any names.

Also, I equally don't want to see a situation where people are getting banned for being too direct in criticism, unless it is very OTT.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

TheBlackThing

Hyzepher wrote:

The above statement shows why the Poker forum is so hard to break into for the new player. People like LL seem to think that the forum is for aspiring poker professionals who are out to win as much money as possible and appear in as many high profile tournaments as they can. Well for them it is, but for the most part it is here to provide an outlet for the Irish poker player, in whatever way they want.

I've been reading this forum daily for about 6 or 7 months now but haven't really posted much. The reason for this is sometimes you guys (general) really give the impression that you just want to put down other posters an have a personal dig at them and this seems kind of intimidating to a newbie.

Don't get me wrong, none of this was ever directed at me and any advice I received was in good nature. I welcome any criticism of my play because that is one of the reasons I choose to post here, as long as it is meant in a constructive way and does not leave me with the feeling of "fcuk him anyway, who does he think he is".

The other reason I read this daily is because most of the time its good craic and seems like a pretty good community, but I think its important to keep it like that and not get personal with eachother.

I've played against Len a few times and I think he's a really good guy, he plays good poker and he's not in your face bragging about his poker achievments and he is very civil to all at his table. I for one hope he doesn't stop posting here because I find him both entertaining and educational.

To sum this up, I know that some of the comments in this thread weren't meant as a personal attack on Len and that they were giving advice on the way he played the hand, but that is not the way he picked it up. So maybe we need to think twice before we press "submit" to make sure that our comments are received in the way we intended. Its nice to be nice.

Just my 2c...

DeVore

The most important characteristic a poster should have is civility. You can replace "poster" with "person" too, as far as I am concerned.

DeV.

kakak1

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I remember when I used to baulk at the curtness of Reggie ,Valor, and HJ's posts. That was before I realised that their contribution around here is invaluable (understatement).

However, and in my opinion of course, Len's contribution to this forum (and I have met Len in person a couple of times and found him to be a very affable gentleman btw) is not invaluable. His abscence from this forum would not reduce it's value as a learning tool.

This thread should help to clearly demonstrate why the above holds true.

---

The "community" element to the forum is nice, and does have merit. But pats on the back and "hard luck mate" should not be wanted by us as poker players when we **** up. As serious poker players, we should be looking for someone to tell us we played a hand (or a series of hands, or a session) like a ****ing moron. The truth hurts. But if we want to be successful and improve we need to be honest with ourselves and look to improve.

Do we want an Irish player to win one of these ****ing big tournaments? If we do then we all need to get off our highhorses immediately and stop expecting everyone to say please and thank you - and be greatful when someone with a much better understanding of the game than us gives freely of their time to post advice.

I think Lloyd you are very possibly summing up the poker scene.

So then the end justifies the means

Great we may get a "world champion" but the chances are he'll be an ignorant bufoon like many of the American players who rant and rave at bad beats or when they suck out.

Storm away from the poker table, slamming doors behind them, do you recognise that type of player. :eek: :eek:

It can be done differently, teachers educate pupils without abusing them or berating their errors.

There are 2 ways of doing any job. The right way & the wrong way. You choose your way.

I'll settle for the right way thank you.

cardshark202

kakak1 wrote:

I think Lloyd you are very possibly summing up the poker scene.

So then the end justifies the means

Great we may get a "world champion" but the chances are he'll be an ignorant bufoon like many of the American players who rant and rave at bad beats or when they suck out.

Storm away from the poker table, slamming doors behind them, do you recognise that type of player. :eek: :eek:

It can be done differently, teachers educate pupils without abusing them or berating their errors.

There are 2 ways of doing any job. The right way & the wrong way. You choose your way.

I'll settle for the right way thank you.

Yeah you've done a great job so far.

kakak1

cardshark202 wrote:

Yeah you've done a great job so far.

thank you, hadn't realised I had

RichieLawlor

kakak1 wrote:

I think Lloyd you are very possibly summing up the poker scene.

So then the end justifies the means

Great we may get a "world champion" but the chances are he'll be an ignorant bufoon like many of the American players who rant and rave at bad beats or when they suck out.

Storm away from the poker table, slamming doors behind them, do you recognise that type of player. :eek: :eek:

It can be done differently, teachers educate pupils without abusing them or berating their errors.

There are 2 ways of doing any job. The right way & the wrong way. You choose your way.

I'll settle for the right way thank you.

.

Nice post Dave, you make a good point but sometimes you do have to be harsh to be helpful

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

kakak1

RichieLawlor wrote:

.

Nice post Dave,

for once we agree Richie, well nearly

where have you been

kakak1

LuckyLloyd wrote:

This post again misses the point. We are talking about people who take time out to post - and don't get paid for it. Whatever "way" they use to get their message across should be accepted - no ifs, no buts. And if it offends your sensibillities then, meh.

Sorry Lloyd to correct you.

It's you are missing the point. We are not talking about people who take time out to post (the thread may be gone in that direction).

Read back to the start of the thread. Len received unsolicited advice and uncalled for abuse.

And I will not agree with whatever "way". There is a right way & a wrong way, no ifs or buts. And it shouldn't offend and if it does it is wrong, especially when it is unsolicited.

RoundTower

Hyzepher wrote:

The above statement shows why the Poker forum is so hard to break into for the new player. People like LL seem to think that the forum is for aspiring poker professionals who are out to win as much money as possible and appear in as many high profile tournaments as they can. Well for them it is, but for the most part it is here to provide an outlet for the Irish poker player, in whatever way they want.

To openly say that one person is most valuable to the forum than another is downright disrespectful and immature. people post for different reasons and people take different things from posts - we are not all the same.

If this forum is to turn into an elitist pile of ****e then maybe we are better off out of it and leave LL and other likeminded people here to plot for global poker domination - after all we have nothing to offer anyway!!

Hyzepher for mod!

Hitman Actual

kakak1 wrote:

Read back to the start of the thread. Len received unsolicited advice and uncalled for abuse.

This is just going around in circles at this stage, but where was the "uncalled for abuse"? Quote me one post where Len was abused. There have been some real controversial threads over the years here, but this one is unbelievably tame by comparison.

David Michael

RoundTower wrote:

Hyzepher for mod!

+1


Funny really...one of my hobbies is poker and the other.. world domination!

Not doing well at either

strewelpeter

Look at what actually happened here, Len a well known (not to me) poker personality posts about his EPT experience on boards, possibly to augment this own blog that hes getting the buy in from but definitely in a place where he should know to expect a robust reaction to his play. The hand analysis goes into some detail about his thinking and how he came to have a great read that his villain has missed his ace and Len realises hes ahead. Then he says:

Fatboydim wrote:

...I think about reraising here but I know I have him and I want more chips. A harmless looking 4 comes on the river. I go all in... He insta calls...

There then follows a couple of posts sympathising , bad beat, nh wp ul etc. And for an average player like me who is trying to improve it would be very easy to soak that in and most importantly see it as just nh ul wp when I get myself into the same situation some time in the future..."Aw jaysus sure isn't that the same thing that happened to poor aul Len in the EPT".
but then there is an excellent post :

Flushdraw wrote:

Pity you didnt go deeper Len. If i was you, i would have pushed the turn and be happy to take the 3800 or so in the middle with a pretty weak hand especially as you dont know what card you want you to see on the river.

Considering the way you played the hand and the read you had, i think it would have been better to check the river and let David take a flyer at it again. If he's weak, he cant call your allin anyway but if you check it to him, he can only win with a bet.

Len comes back on and posts without any acknowledgment of Flushdraws typically constructive and lucid comments and after that ... well maybe Cardshark (not known to me either) has a bit of a go at Lens play in the hand but by the standards of some of the stuff on here its pretty mild stuff. And while I agree 100% with Dev about civility I think it would be a bit harsh to say that Cardshark crossed any line in his post.
It would be very easy for the casual reader to miss the awfulness of Lens play in the flurry of sympathetic posts. Its not ABC and the hand merits discussion but for me at least its a worthwhile exercise just to see how easy it is to get everything almost perfect, outplay an experienced pro who is playing at the top levels all the time and make one seemingly trivial mistake and to end up going out of an EPT.
In my opinion the second most important thing to the civility argument is that the forum did its core job of binning the idea that this was in any way a bad beat and recognising it for the mistake it was.

eoghan104 wrote:

...I read the forum to learn about the game but also for the community spirit and banter, both of whick I think are very important elements of the Forum.

The elitist attitude from some people I find hilarious and the bum licking that goes on between these posters is hilarious too. I just ignore them and move on. If you dont like it dont read it...

Again I agree completly and sure isn't that half the fun of the place, I don't think it is possible to have poker discussion without ego and the odd bitchfight.
No one likes snarky one line posts but unless we have strong opinions, with reasonings so that good advice can be sifted out, from more posters its very easy for the bad advice to percolate to the top. There are a number of good posters gone by the wayside and thats a pity; hopefully they'll be back.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

kakak1

lenny_leonard wrote:

This is just going around in circles at this stage, but where was the "uncalled for abuse"? Quote me one post where Len was abused. There have been some real controversial threads over the years here, but this one is unbelievably tame by comparison.

Just some of what was said

"your exit hand is really gross"
"the river play is just horrible"
"The river push is absolutely horrendous"
"Shoving the river is just as Reggie said, gross"
"you should get paddy power to pay you in cash instead"
"I honestly recommend you take the cash"
"Len's contribution to this forum (and I have met Len in person a couple of times and found him to be a very affable gentleman btw) is not invaluable"
"His abscence from this forum would not reduce it's value as a learning tool"

Judge for yourself

Theresalwaysone

Lens a big boy, criticism is part of the game. Im sure he knows this as much as anyone.

This thread is a perfect example of nothing interesting happening in the poker forum.

Flushy hurry up with that league.

kakak1

LuckyLloyd wrote:

- Len played the EPT;
- Len was eliminated from the EPT;
- He posted the hand he was eliminated on;
- Technically he was two - outered by David Williams;
- In reality he made a couple of significant errors in the hand and could have played it better;
- Some good players identified these errors and - on the basis that this is a poker forum where people are supposed to debate and discuss poker tactics and strategy - chose to highlight why they felt the play of the hand was sub - standard and could have been improved upon;
- Cue drama;


You say the advice offerred to Len was "unsolicited". So what if it was. IMO any hand that is posted up on the board should be open to comment and critiscism. The clear exception in my mind would be if the player posted a hand in the middle of an online tournament or during a dinner break of a live tournament. As their head needs to be clear at that time - instant critiscism would not be helpful. Best to stick to supporting and geeing up the player and waiting until their elimination before getting analysis jackboots on.

Why should everything be up for debate? Because I'm sure some new players to the game may not have realised the mistakes made by Len when reading through the hand. They may not notice, or they may think that because Len is playing in the EPT that he wouldn't be capable of a mistake. Either way, not discussing possible errors would just bring the level of the forum down.

---

Now, in regards to the nature of people's posting styles and method of delivery; let's just say that we will have to agree to disagree. I welcome advice from players better than myself and realise that the truth sometimes hurts - so I have learned to accept valuable critiscism in it's various shapes and sizes. Undoubtably, poker is a game that attracts people with larger than usual egos. And I have come across many a player in Dublin cardrooms that play regularly; but play bad - and would not be open to discuss the game or their potential errors because they like being stuck in their ways or aren't open to critiscism. They are happy to play without putting too much thought into it and take the view that the game is purely a social excercise; or that "there is more than one way to skin a cat"; or that it doesn't really matter anyway as it is predominantly down to luck. Hyzepher is correct in so far as they have their place in the game - but such attitudes will not help us improve. I am here to improve. I believe boards should be primarily viewed as a learning tool.

You are either serious about poker or you aren't I suppose - much as it is with any hobby or job. If you are serious about improving and dislike losing or failing in a competative environment then you will aim to learn, improve and move forward within your chosen field. If you combine such a desire with the abillity to be an adult then you will just learn to get past your own ego, assume you can always be wrong - and take what free or cheap help you can get.

If you don't particularly care about winning, or need your ego and perception of self massaged on a regular basis - then maybe poker isn't for you.

EDIT: for clarity, I began typing before Tony posted his comments in # 92

this is my last post on this subject.
I agree with an awful lot of what you say here. Most players appreciate advice from better players. But there is a way of imparting this advice and that is not been done a lot of the time.

You can be nice yet harsh in your constructive criticism.

Hyzepher

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Hyzepher is correct in so far as they have their place in the game - but such attitudes will not help us improve. I am here to improve. I believe boards should be primarily viewed as a learning tool.

I am all for learning and forums like this are the perfect tool for that. We all want to learn - that's beyond question. However, Lloyd my comments are not based on whether the OP played his hand correctly or not, or even on whether the advice given was warranted or harsh or whatever. My comments were based on the increasingly worrying trend that some people seem to think that the forum is here to serve their needs and disregard the needs of others - particularily directed towards your comment citing that some people would not be missed from the forum if they left.

Regardless of the standard of someone's play or the level of their contribution to the Poker forum, everyone has a right to do, say or participate as they see fit. And by that stroke the forum is perfect for them. To say that certain people are better for the forum than others is elitist and starting to follow a road towards the tossers on the other side of the Atlantic. You only have to read Jessy Mays thread to see that one attribute of the Irish is to be able to take from Poker what they will and not be hungup on results or who is better than who.

If thats what you want Lloyd then I can start a thread and everyday we can post on how good you et al are and how the forum wouldn't survive without you. Your goal will be achieved many years early and the rest of us can go back and have the craic as usual.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Hyzepher

Maybe I mis-read you but did you not say that Len's absense from the forum would go unnoticed compared to other posters?

Russh

I Just clicked on this to read about the EPT in Barcelona.. and found very little content about same...:( ....

I wouldn't have played the hand as was played, but something more like what flushdraw posted....

I think if I didn't want or was unwilling to take advice on the hand (in wahtever manner) I would not have posted it in as much detail...."I ran into set of 4's" might have done the trick....but it has to be respected that no analysis of the hand was asked for....

Anyway I'm disappointed the title of thread is a bit misleading......

ocallagh

strewelpeter wrote:

Look at what actually happened here, Len a well known (not to me) poker personality posts about his EPT experience on boards, possibly to augment this own blog that hes getting the buy in from but definitely in a place where he should know to expect a robust reaction to his play. The hand analysis goes into some detail about his thinking and how he came to have a great read that his villain has missed his ace and Len realises hes ahead. Then he says:

There then follows a couple of posts sympathising , bad beat, nh wp ul etc. And for an average player like me who is trying to improve it would be very easy to soak that in and most importantly see it as just nh ul wp when I get myself into the same situation some time in the future..."Aw jaysus sure isn't that the same thing that happened to poor aul Len in the EPT".
but then there is an excellent post :

Len comes back on and posts without any acknowledgment of Flushdraws typically constructive and lucid comments and after that ... well maybe Cardshark (not known to me either) has a bit of a go at Lens play in the hand but by the standards of some of the stuff on here its pretty mild stuff. And while I agree 100% with Dev about civility I think it would be a bit harsh to say that Cardshark crossed any line in his post.
It would be very easy for the casual reader to miss the awfulness of Lens play in the flurry of sympathetic posts. Its not ABC and the hand merits discussion but for me at least its a worthwhile exercise just to see how easy it is to get everything almost perfect, outplay an experienced pro who is playing at the top levels all the time and make one seemingly trivial mistake and to end up going out of an EPT.
In my opinion the second most important thing to the civility argument is that the forum did its core job of binning the idea that this was in any way a bad beat and recognising it for the mistake it was.

Again I agree completly and sure isn't that half the fun of the place, I don't think it is possible to have poker discussion without ego and the odd bitchfight.
No one likes snarky one line posts but unless we have strong opinions, with reasonings so that good advice can be sifted out, from more posters its very easy for the bad advice to percolate to the top. There are a number of good posters gone by the wayside and thats a pity; hopefully they'll be back.

good post, although Len did reply to Flushdraw.

ps: Len, don't go anywhere - Some posters on this forum do have quite a direct style of writing. They approach this forum in a different manner to most though. They are more focused on theory, improving and sharing their knowledge. They are a huge asset to this forum, and while I reckon they could phrase some of their posts a little better I don't have a problem with it because I know it's not a personal attack.