EPT Barcelona

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

kakak1

DeVore wrote:

Lloyd, why does anything have to be attacked??

DeV.

DeVore (Tom) you have a wonderful way with words.

This thread has now, in my opinion, gone off course.

As poker players we all appreciate the analysis of poker hands and we thank our better players for their input.

However if this "help" is by way of abuse I think the majority could do without it.

IMO Flushdraw gave an excellent post, gave his opinion in a very constructive & mannerly way and there was a lesson to be learned there.

Compare this to Cardsharks first post and what is the lesson here. No constructive criticism, just abuse in a 3 /4 line post.

I would ask all players to read all of DeVore's posts on this thread as this sums up exactly what I have been trying to say and what the thread was about.

Mods I really think this thread has ceased to be of any further value. I only hope that maybe some lessons in etiquette have been learned from it.

Shuffle up and deal.

Fatboydim

Wow! This has all gone a bit mad. I can't not reply.

Firstly I need to point something out - The original post I made with the hand was written for the blog and lifted an hour later - posted on here. So that was written five minutes after being knocked out sitting in the press room in the Casino and trying to sound "entertaining".
Later posts on here were more accurate with regard to my thinking.

The irony seems to be that this started to explode as a thread when "I" called CS a "Plank". The reason being [and if you look at this post] I questioned his assumption of what David Williams would or wouldn't do.

I even said:

"I don't mind you criticising the hand. Go ahead"

I admit my own petulance in saying I couldn't be arsed anymore and would take a break from Boards. - Not retire... Just not bother with it so much - I read the bloody thing everyday.

So then we get all the crapolla that follows.

BTW I Lloyds post made me laugh as I understood exactly what Lloyd was saying and agree with him. I certainly don't expect that I would be missed and I don't think my contributions here are as valid as others. That's fine.

The hand itself - I had replied to other posters comments on the hand and had agreed that in a normal game I would have played the hand the "Correct" way - and this is important because it does acknowledge there is a "Correct" way to play the hand. The reason I didn't play it that way is because of history.

No one has followed up my point about the play being made because of table history and it is a very very valid part of the play. Williams was short stacked for most of the early stages of the tournament. I had taken chips from him. So had others. A friend came up to him badgering him for 10k to play in a cash game. Williams sorted this out with Thomas Kremsner and his friend... Williams was very uncomfortable it seemed to me. I was very, very comfortable and confident at that table. I won't labour this point but I assure you of two things - Had I pushed on the turn, as I should have, Williams IMHO [and I am in a better position to know this than CS who was not sat at the table, was not observing Williams and I assume because he hasn't replied otherwise has never played Williams] would have called with his fours. Always know why you make a bet and what you want from it.

I called the bet because I wanted to get more of an idea where I stood. When I did this Williams virtually signposted that I was ahead.

I then pushed all in because there were no scare cards on the river - If I was ahead on the turn I felt I was ahead now. It's only when he insta called that I knew I was in trouble and I asked him if he had the ace because I would have fallen on the floor if he had. As I have explained elsewhere it is my opinion that he may well have called my push reading it as a missed draw as I had shown my willingness early in the game to chase down draws. It is because of this history that I made the play.

Had he not hit the set on the river and called with pocket fours what would the response have been on here then?

As a player I have never made out that I am brilliant. I have always shown a willingness to learn and adapt and I have certainly admitted that I'm not a good cash game player hence the thread I started on that. I also happen to think that you can learn from anyone. As another poster said on here - in not so many words - why are the experts only grinding out a living? And the answer is complicated involving variance, mathematical equations, skill - but most of all one undeniable fact - Because they don't know everything.

My simple rule on how I post on here is this -
Would I say this to the person face to face?
And I think that is a simple enough rule to follow.

Had Reggie said his post to my face after getting knocked out I would have called him worse than a plank.

Other people have hijacked this thread and turned it into something else.

I will seriously think about posting on here both now and in the future - Not least because why should I let anyone know how I play or what I'm thinking. - I'm more than capable of analysing hands and of reading this forum, books, 2 + 2 etc.

If and when I post on here it will probably be low content. I've never taken myself seriously I don't know why others should.

I would however - seriously like this point of table history and it's impact on the hand to be discussed. As I think it's very relevant.

DeVore

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Dev, attacked is maybe the wrong word. Discussed, questioned, debated, examined are all better words. In all probabillity you will choose your own word on the basis of whether you agree with what is being said or not.

No, you used the word "attacked" initially, and I think you instinctively got it right.

DeV.

jbravado

DeVore wrote:

Lloyd, why does anything have to be attacked??

.

.

There is a way to do things that show a little bit of class-imo some posts didnt show that.I dont think that believing you should treat someone as you would in real life is being precious in the slightest.
I certainly dont think posting that Lens contribution wouldnt be lost showed any tact or decency whatsoever-but feel that its purely a case of something being lost in translation and was not meant to offensive.
Personally I hope the next time I post a hand I recieve advice-if its a little brash or lacking in civility thats a pity but ill take it as what it is ie advice on a game.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Hyzepher

Fatboydim wrote:

I would however - seriously like this point of table history and it's impact on the hand to be discussed. As I think it's very relevant.

I think on the most part describing a HH without giving away the punch line will allow for a more balanced discussion. Poker is somewhat of a complex game in so far as there are lots of factors that come into play when deciding what to do. table history is one of those factors and can play a large role.

On the hand in question your read seemed to be correct given that you were ahead on the turn when you made your ultimate decision and in that respect you were unlucky. The real mistake was checking the flop but I suppose those are the chances we take if we have decided to take down a larger pot rather than settle for what is there - again a decision that we have all taken and no real biggie albeit it got you into trouble this time.

In the cold light of day on a forum such as this it is very easy to make analysis of hands that really only tell half the story - I suppose it's a case of 'You had to be there to really get the full picture'.

ditpoker

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I say horrendous things to people in person every day, so I guess I'm exempt on this one.

its true... he does... :rolleyes:

Fatboydim

Hyzepher wrote:

On the hand in question your read seemed to be correct given that you were ahead on the turn when you made your ultimate decision and in that respect you were unlucky. The real mistake was checking the flop but I suppose those are the chances we take if we have decided to take down a larger pot rather than settle for what is there - again a decision that we have all taken and no real biggie albeit it got you into trouble this time.

In the cold light of day on a forum such as this it is very easy to make analysis of hands that really only tell half the story - I suppose it's a case of 'You had to be there to really get the full picture'.

After the hand I was more annoyed with playing the KQ out of position than anything else - because everything else followed on from that. To me this is one of the most important points. And you're right Hyzepher - I was trying to get a bigger pot. I considered betting the flop but there were three people to act behind me. Had any of them bet - or had Williams made a bigger or smaller bet I would have either re-raised or folded. The same went for the turn. That all stems from being first to act.

That is, was and remains the biggest mistake of the hand.

cardshark202

This thread should be added to the sticky

EDIT: For Rory - poor people lol

LuckyLloyd

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RoundTower

you didn't post the hand to be discussed, but now you are still trying to justify your play now?

MrPillowTalk

nicnicnic wrote:

eureka!!! this could also solve the cash V tournament players argument I'll have $1000 on the tournament paintball team.

Through variance the Tourney guys might win the actual battle, however if it was a full scale war requiring proper strategic, front and back line planning with supply lines and reinforcement etc etc the tourney guys would be drawing dead so to speak.

Mellor

DeVore wrote:

.

"The river push is absolutely horrendous"
"Shoving the river is just as Reggie said, gross"
"you should get paddy power to pay you in cash instead"
"I honestly recommend you take the cash"
"Len's contribution to this forum (and I have met Len in person a couple of times and found him to be a very affable gentleman btw) is not invaluable"

DeV.

Would I be right in think that you took these posts from a different "quote" as opposed to the direct source. I mentioned this in my post last night. And this perfectly proves my point. When somebody quotes somebody, we assuming that it is a true quote. Basic civility. And DeV, you did nothing wrong by assuming that the quote you copied was accurate. But its not.
A famous saying by mods here on boards is attack the post not the poster. The hand advice post were doing this. Maybe a little too bluntly, or at a bad time, but were never a reflection on Len as a player or a person. I have highlighted two lines that appear to attack len as a player. I cannot remember who was the original quoter, only that DeV must of copied it. but the original comments were completely out of context. its a f*cking disgrace. DeVs post shows how making up lies like that, can easily be accepted truths. DeV assumed, just like we all do, that a quote is accurate. And because of his position, it will be set in stone if unnoticed.

The comments were followed by a reason, which had nothing to do with ability and it was that getting paid in tourney fees is generally bad as the variance will kill you. You will not play enough games to even it out. And it is defo -EV for most of the field. They never tried to judge Len as a player, and either am I. I think he should actually keep the fees, as there is more to playing in a tourney that the monetary value. But taking the post out of context to portray somebody in a bad light is disgraceful.

Mellor

"Attack the post not the poster"

While most of you may not agree with comments made regarding Len's exit hand. Nobody can say there weren't directed at the hand only and not at Len. The original comments, not the spiral that followed.

But the comments by users who were "outraged", or defending Len, whichever the case were far far worse. Direct attacks on players, not aimed at posts, but directly as personal history or traits.
I find it funny, while lashing out against posters who are blunt in their replys (replies aimed at a HH etc) they unleash personnal attacks far worse that the posts they are complaining about.
I not not here to name perple. But most probable know who they are.

Fatboydim

RoundTower wrote:

you didn't post the hand to be discussed, but now you are still trying to justify your play now?

Just trying to put it into context - but seems I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

cardshark202

Mellor made some good points there, I hope that that was a mistake on Dev's part to represent those quotes out of context, but given the way things have gone recently, I'm a little doubtful.

DeVore

I copied them in good faith from a previous post. Apologies if they arent accurate, I will attempt to correct that if not.

I didnt attribute them to you Reggie, just that they were said and to be fair, its a reasonable cross section of the responses.


DeV.

Goodluck2me

cardshark202 wrote:

Mellor made some good points there, I hope that that was a mistake on Dev's part to represent those quotes out of context, but given the way things have gone recently, I'm a little doubtful.

to be fair to him he edited the Rory post for your benefit, so this was a little uncalled for.

But i do agree some of the things Reggie has been called by the whiter than white guys Kaka1 et al, have been much worse than what he said about the Hand.

Hitman Actual

DeVore wrote:

I copied them in good faith from a previous post. Apologies if they arent accurate, I will attempt to correct that if not.

I didnt attribute them to you Reggie, just that they were said and to be fair, its a reasonable cross section of the responses.


DeV.

They were actually from a reply by kakak1 to me , where I asked him to show me some quotes of "uncalled for abuse". I didn't see them as abuse, even if they are a bit 'blunt', and I just wasn't bothered replying. But they are taken out of context.

Mellor

DeVore wrote:

I copied them in good faith from a previous post. Apologies if they arent accurate, I will attempt to correct that if not.

I didnt attribute them to you Reggie, just that they were said and to be fair, its a reasonable cross section of the responses.


DeV.

I wasn't aiming my post at you DeV, I was just trying to highlight a huge problem. And how easy it is for "anyone" to make such a mistake.

If I were to get a list of things said about Reggie etc, it would be a far worse list. Its one thing to be blunt in a reply, its another to make a personal attack.

DeVore

Roundtower posted:
If this is really the situation and you could take cash instead of tourney entries, I honestly recommend you take the cash. Apart from the massive variance of playing the tournies, even getting 5k in cash is probably a better deal for you than 8k in EPT entries.

I dont see anywhere where I have attacked or abused Reggie, nor do I feel a need to...

DeV.

Mellor

I think you mis understood, the two points were unrelated.
The above is the full post by RT. And its a slightly different quote than was previously posted by Kaka1. Roundtower, was actually defending Len and thought that some comments were too harsh.

DeV, to the best of my knowledge, you haven't attack or abused Reggie, or anyone else. We were trying to highlight that the very people who were complaining about the tone used by Reggie in his hand advice post have posted far worse. I don't want to lay all the blame on Kaka1, but he was the person who complied the infamous list out of context and so springs to mind. Some of the posts were directed personnally. And he wasn't the only one.

cardshark202

Ok I think this was just a misunderstanding. I thought Tom had taken one of my posts out of context, but it seems it was accidental if he did, so apologies for jumping the gun Tom.

DeVore

If I was criticising anyone's play and I felt they had played badly I would attempt something called "tact". Its a very interesting concept a few people (on both sides) could do with researching.

But the issue with "tact" is that if the person you are criticising is someone you dont *like* to begin with then it takes all the fun out of the booting you are about to give them. Which is half the point, or at least seems so from time to time around here.

DeV.

Hyzepher

Dev - sounds like you're a bit out of sorts with the poker forum?

DeVore

Its been a rough day on a number of forums with people simply being too fast to be ignorant or even just not considering how their comments might be interpreted.

But on the poker forum its endemic and its a shame. I can tell you now, I dont want to be told I'm unlucky if I play badly (and believe me I do!) but neither do I want some tactless gobsh|te who seems to be constantly on my case taking what seems to be gleeful joy in exagerating how bad a play it was.

I will say this; the lact of tact seems more pronounced when its someone the clique don't like then when its one of their own.

DeV.

LuckyLloyd

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bohsman

DeVore wrote:

Roundtower posted:
If this is really the situation and you could take cash instead of tourney entries, I honestly recommend you take the cash. Apart from the massive variance of playing the tournies, even getting 5k in cash is probably a better deal for you than 8k in EPT entries.

I dont see anywhere where I have attacked or abused Reggie, nor do I feel a need to...

DeV.

This is sound advice for anyone that doesnt have a bankroll to play 8k buyin tournaments tbh.

Mellor

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Clique? What clique? I don't feel part of a clique. Who do you think is in this clique? Actually, what the **** are you on about?

Isn't that the name of one of the private poker forums?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

cardshark202

This thread just keeps on giving. Nice tactful post Tom

kakak1

goodluck2me wrote:

to be fair to him he edited the Rory post for your benefit, so this was a little uncalled for.

But i do agree some of the things Reggie has been called by the whiter than white guys Kaka1 et al, have been much worse than what he said about the Hand.

Excuse me it's KAKAK1

Can you please explain what I called Reggie, can't seem to remember what it was or what post it is in

marius

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Clique? What clique? I don't feel part of a clique. Who do you think is in this clique? Actually, what the **** are you on about?

Forest...what Forest...I cant see any Forest with all these damn trees in the way....

kincsem

I think there has been a lack of tact. Choice of words is important.

http://www.phespirit.info/derekandclive/live_02.htm

kakak1

Mellor wrote:

Would I be right in think that you took these posts from a different "quote" as opposed to the direct source. I mentioned this in my post last night. And this perfectly proves my point. When somebody quotes somebody, we assuming that it is a true quote. Basic civility. And DeV, you did nothing wrong by assuming that the quote you copied was accurate. But its not.
A famous saying by mods here on boards is attack the post not the poster. The hand advice post were doing this. Maybe a little too bluntly, or at a bad time, but were never a reflection on Len as a player or a person. I have highlighted two lines that appear to attack len as a player. I cannot remember who was the original quoter, only that DeV must of copied it. but the original comments were completely out of context. its a f*cking disgrace. DeVs post shows how making up lies like that, can easily be accepted truths. DeV assumed, just like we all do, that a quote is accurate. And because of his position, it will be set in stone if unnoticed.

The comments were followed by a reason, which had nothing to do with ability and it was that getting paid in tourney fees is generally bad as the variance will kill you. You will not play enough games to even it out. And it is defo -EV for most of the field. They never tried to judge Len as a player, and either am I. I think he should actually keep the fees, as there is more to playing in a tourney that the monetary value. But taking the post out of context to portray somebody in a bad light is disgraceful.

This is the original post from cardshark, Post No 52


Wow. Forgive me for posting POKER advice in a POKER forum. You're being a total drama queen now though I guess you won't see this cos you're on a break from boards.
One last thing though, if you can ill afford to waste these tourney buyins, and you say you have had to support your family through poker, you should be doing your best to improve your game. Seriously. But if you're too lazy and too easily offended by criticism, then you should get paddy power to pay you in cash instead.


Can you please please explain how this was "taken out of context" and how it is "making up lies"

It's bad enough accepting arrogance but to start accusing us of making up lies !!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

Glowingmind

LuckyLloyd wrote:

The who with the what now??

There's a private forum called "the clique" which is populated by a number of posters on the poker forum.

DeVore

Its also a piece of the english language, which is what I was using.

DeV.

Hitman Actual

Glowingmind wrote:

There's a private forum called "the clique" which is populated by a number of posters on the poker forum.

Name and shame. This one had been thrown around for a long, long, time.

mewso

Captain Tom

lenny_leonard wrote:

Name and shame. This one had been thrown around for a long, long, time.

yeah id be curious to know the idea behind this is. is this the high stakes sub forum? if so, is there a reason why others cant even read the forum? if not, what is it there for?

Flushdraw

Thread of the year..

BOBBB

Captain Tom wrote:

yeah id be curious to know the idea behind this is. is this the high stakes sub forum? if so, is there a reason why others cant even read the forum? if not, what is it there for?

.

David Michael

Quality FD

Sorry for my previous posts. Donked out of a 4000 GTD @ 40th at the time.

I was "tired and emotional"

Soz.

5starpool

lenny_leonard wrote:

Name and shame. This one had been thrown around for a long, long, time.

I think it is a disgrace if this is true!!!

Captain Tom

lol "BOBBB". this is gimmick account number, what, seven?

zuutroy

Flushdraw wrote:

Thread of the year..

lol...at first glance I thought that pic was an angry tribal face.

Goodluck2me

5starpool wrote:

I think it is a disgrace if this is true!!!

edited by 5starpool

5starpool

goodluck2me wrote:

you could ask Bohsman or marq or lafortezza or biteme or hyzepher id imagine they would be able to name more.... although i doubt they would want to, and sure "if you wanted to know, you`d know by now"! lol....

tut tut.

Goodluck2me

5starpool wrote:

tut tut.

i cant believe i forgot you too Dom!!