Car Tax - Surely theres enough of us

smash

well I love my large engined car and can afford to pay tax once a year and petrol every week... I can't afford to pay double the petrol to drive it every day.

next there'll be thread saying:

"I have a 23" TV and watch it on the weekend, why should I pay the same license as those that have a 48" TV and watch it every night"

- pointless threads

Seth Brundle

steve06 wrote:

well I love my large engined car and can afford to pay tax once a year and petrol every week... I can't afford to pay double the petrol to drive it every day.

Who said the tax make the price double - it would presumably only be a 5 or 10 cent increase per litre!

steve06 wrote:

next there'll be thread saying:

"I have a 23" TV and watch it on the weekend, why should I pay the same license as those that have a 48" TV and watch it every night"

- pointless threads

Pay Per View has operated successfully for the last number of years. Why do you think it couldn't be used when everyone goes digital?

mike65

Anyone still got an AXE the TAX sticker?

The current system is heavy with both administration and enforcment - don't tell me the cops could'nt use thier time rather better on a fine summers day.

Both road tax and third party insurance should be builkt=in to the price of fuel. Sure we'd all have a moan about the price hike but would then get a little warm feeling when the first tax renewal date comes and goes with no demands on your wallet.

Whatsmore with TP insurance in the mix no-one would ever get strung by an uninsured driver and go through the misery of the redress board process.

Mike.

is_that_so

unkel wrote:

It can be done in a budget neutral way. So what we pay less in total by not having to pay tax, we pay more in total at the pump. So overal we do not gain or loose a cent. Obviously the low level polluter will benefit and the high level polluter will loose out. Good!

I might agree with this if the fuel was not something subject to wild variations , mostly due to circumstances beyond out control. Until technology takes away this dependence IMO this is not workable. It's all well and good to feel warm and fuzzy about getting at big polluters, although here I guess here you are targetting Yummy Mummy SUVS and the like. Nevertheless a tax like that is also a cost and businesses will pass on these costs. So I am not sure how you see that we don't lose out. We will lose out through higher prices elsewhere.

Marcus.Aurelius

Car tax is much higher here than abroad, and we don't get any value for money. Half of all the wasted billions go into pro-FF builder's arse pockets. IF we added the car tax to the fuel price, it would be astronomically high.

We need to kick the basta&ds up the hole and and sort out the waste, so we can see how to get value for money before we add it to the petrol price.

The FF govt would use it as an excuse to up the tax and then add it to the petrol. Greedy & corrupt, but hey, ye voted them in again.

RobAMerc

kearnsr wrote:

VRT isn't road tax. You've probably paid more VAT than the lad in the corolla but where does that come in?

I had to pay the VRT as an tax on ownership thats done when buying the car, road tax is supposed to be a tax for using the road which I don't do as much as some who pay 25% what I do in road tax a year - my proposal of including it in the petrol costs means if you use your car more and have a bigger engine ( more pollution) then you pay more road tax !

Is this not fair ?

unkel

is_that_so wrote:

I might agree with this if the fuel was not something subject to wild variations , mostly due to circumstances beyond out control

You'll find it's quite the opposite in that it will stabilise the price we pay at the pump! I'll try and demonstrate with a simple example:

Say at the moment fuel costs €1.00 at the pump, of which €0.40 is fuel and €0.60 is tax/duty. Say in the new situation fuel costs €1.50 at the pump, of which €0.40 is still fuel and €1.10 is tax/duty

A 50% hike in fuel prices bringing the fuel element of the pump price from €0.40 to €0.60 will cause a fuel price increase of 20% in the old situation and only 13% in the new situation!

is_that_so wrote:

Nevertheless a tax like that is also a cost and businesses will pass on these costs

Either pass on these costs if the lack of competition in the companies sector allows it, or be forced to cut costs and as a result be cleaner, e.g. by using vehicles that are more fuel efficient etc

Dades

RobAMerc wrote:

I had to pay the VRT as an tax on ownership thats done when buying the car, road tax is supposed to be a tax for using the road which I don't do as much as some who pay 25% what I do in road tax a year - my proposal of including it in the petrol costs means if you use your car more and have a bigger engine ( more pollution) then you pay more road tax !

Is this not fair ?

I fear you're wasting you time here and I can't believe some of the responses you've got.

Motor tax should be based on two things: how much you use the roads, and how much pollution you are responsible for. Removing the static tax on cars, and putting it on fuel is the best way to do this.

The nay-sayers here can't see beyond the fact that it allows you own a luxury car and pay less tax - despite the fact this is by virtue of you using less resources as a low mileage motorist.

what_car

RobAMerc wrote:

I had to pay the VRT as an tax on ownership thats done when buying the car, road tax is supposed to be a tax for using the road which I don't do as much as some who pay 25% what I do in road tax a year - my proposal of including it in the petrol costs means if you use your car more and have a bigger engine ( more pollution) then you pay more road tax !

Is this not fair ?

no it is not fair to put extra cost on petrol.... it should be tax as it is.. ie if you have a car you pay tax as per the emissions/ or the size of the engine.

ireland is expensive enough without putting cost on petrol.. if anything they should increase the road tax rates rather than increase petrol costs



i drive a big engined car too ( by irish standards) and im not complaining
about paying tax..... its the law....

RobAMerc

The Atheist wrote:

I fear you're wasting you time here and I can't believe some of the responses you've got.

I fear I knew that before I started :rolleyes:

Dades

what_car wrote:

it should be tax as it is.. ie if you have a car you pay tax as per the emissions/ or the size of the engine.

And what produces more emissions; a Corolla that does 20K miles a year, or a Jag that does 2K?

So which do want to tax people on - the cubic capacity of the engine in their driveway - or how much actually spews out of their exhaust while you sit behind them on the M50?

Cionád

unkel wrote:

You'll find it's quite the opposite in that it will stabilise the price we pay at the pump! I'll try and demonstrate with a simple example:

Say at the moment fuel costs €1.00 at the pump, of which €0.40 is fuel and €0.60 is tax/duty. Say in the new situation fuel costs €1.50 at the pump, of which €0.40 is still fuel and €1.10 is tax/duty

A 50% hike in fuel prices bringing the fuel element of the pump price from €0.40 to €0.60 will cause a fuel price increase of 20% in the old situation and only 13% in the new situation!

Doesnt the tax/duty increase though as a percentage of the fuel price?, i.e. if there was a 50% hike in fuel, would the tax not rise 50% also?
- i didn't think the tax is a fixed rate...

Tony Danza

I agree with the OP, I have a 2 litre, my friend has a 1.9 litre, we're both the same age, pay approximately the same insurance and tax, yet I do about 8-10k miles per year and he does about 30k. Surely all the people that say "just get a car with a smaller engine" can see that this is somewhat unfair? I know some taxes like the TV license is a flat rate also, but car tax would be very easy to have it that the people that use the roads should pay for them. I mean I don't pay the same amount of PAYE tax as my boss.

Ger the man

Just imagine if everyone bought smaller cars (lets say 1.3 ltr max) and forgot about there snobby ego? How would the government react when there revenue from car tax dropped like a stone?

Ger the man

Ger the man wrote:

Just imagine if everyone bought smaller cars (lets say 1.3 ltr max) and forgot about there snobby ego? How would the government react when there revenue from car tax dropped like a stone?

Imagine how much it would drop if a lot more people had motorbikes. €67 for tax no matter what size the engine is, even for 2.3ltr triumph rocket3.

RobAMerc

Ger the man wrote:

Just imagine if everyone bought smaller cars (lets say 1.3 ltr max) and forgot about there snobby ego?

Do you really think that the CC of my car inflates my ego ? Is that all your car is for - to show off in ?

mike65

Ger the man wrote:

Just imagine if everyone bought smaller cars (lets say 1.3 ltr max) and forgot about there snobby ego? How would the government react when there revenue from car tax dropped like a stone?

I was just thinking the same thing, only I had the proliferation of small turbo charged petrol engines in mind. If they really catch on soon we'll all be driving 1.4-1.6 cars with 150-200 bhp at which point the government will introduce a Turbo-tax.

Mike.

Dades

Ger the man wrote:

Just imagine if everyone bought smaller cars (lets say 1.3 ltr max) and forgot about there snobby ego? How would the government react when there revenue from car tax dropped like a stone?

I note your objections to the OP's proposal are completely practical, objective and well thought out.
Kudos to you!

Ger the man

RobAMerc wrote:

Do you really think that the CC of my car inflates my ego ? Is that all your car is for - to show off in ?

Not at all, my car serves me well, I dont need to enhance any part of my body.

Ger the man

Deleted User wrote:

Imagine how much it would drop if a lot more people had motorbikes. €67 for tax no matter what size the engine is, even for 2.3ltr triumph rocket3.

In an ideal world most people would have bikes (im an ex-biker), be properly trained, ride them properly, respect the rules of the road and look after them but because of human nature that will never happen. We should also have lanes for early morning traffic for cars that are full with passangers only, enforce jaywalking laws, spend more on public transport (available 24 hrs a day) and ban cars from the city centre.

heyjude

Tony Danza wrote:

I agree with the OP, I have a 2 litre, my friend has a 1.9 litre, we're both the same age, pay approximately the same insurance and tax, yet I do about 8-10k miles per year and he does about 30k. Surely all the people that say "just get a car with a smaller engine" can see that this is somewhat unfair? I know some taxes like the TV license is a flat rate also, but car tax would be very easy to have it that the people that use the roads should pay for them. I mean I don't pay the same amount of PAYE tax as my boss.

We already have such a two such taxes, they are called excise duty and VAT and together they account for over 60% of the cost of petrol/diesel, so the more you drive the more you pay. If your friend drives 20k miles further than you each year, then assuming he gets 6.66miles/litre(approx 30mpg), he uses about 3000 litres more fuel per year, which even at 60c(tax) per litre, means he pays an extra €1800 in tax each year for his extra driving.

Dades

None of that makes the current Motor Tax system fair.

Motor tax should be based on motoring, not the motor.

heyjude

The Atheist wrote:

None of that makes the current Motor Tax system fair.

Motor tax should be based on motoring, not the motor.

True, looking at what they get from motor tax and what it costs to collect and enforce, it would seem to make more sense to just add a few cents onto petrol and axe motor tax altogether. The bigger cars burn more fuel.

Donald Fagen

Ger the man wrote:

Not at all, my car serves me well, I dont need to enhance any part of my body.

Yawn. What a clichéd comeback; and from someone who needs to validate his manhood by calling himself "The Man" - how ironic. I have a huge cock, and a fast car, so how do you explain that one?

I drive a 4ltr XK8, and I happen to strongly disagree with the OP. My insurance is high, my tax is high, and my fuel costs are high - but guess what - I knew all this before I bought it and IT WAS MY CHOICE. How often I use the car is irrelevant. If I paid that much for a big engined car, and left it sitting there in my driveway, then I'm an idiot - I shouldn't get tax relief for being an idiot!

Logistically, the OPs idea is just plain stupid, and could never be implemented fairly. Even though it would likely benefit me, I'm not blind enough to agree with it, and think it could actually work.

OKenora

You cannot factor a "road tax" replacement into fuel costs in Ireland...why ? Cos we are already getting shafted by the taxes on fuel.

As an example an average car could do about 35mpg and 12000miles a year. This car will cost about €700 a year in tax on average ? Fair figures ?

So putting the road tax on fuel means the government needs you to pay about €14 a week extra on your fuel. Your car uses about 28 litres a week. Thats a hike of 50c a litre. Would motorists accept that? Especially considering it would bring the cost of a litre to about €1.60 and the taxation part of that being about €1.20.

Actual increase would be a bit less than that as the heavy road users (haulage, couriers, taxis) would pay a lot more but they would up their prices to compensate, but this would be detrimental to the economy.......

Car tax as part of fuel price = great idea, but un-workable when trying to add it to an existing system.

RobAMerc

Donald Fagen wrote:

If I paid that much for a big engined car, and left it sitting there in my driveway, then I'm an idiot - I shouldn't get tax relief for being an idiot!

So your saying that I should use my large CC car more because I paid more road tax for it? rather than being rewarded for choosing to use a smaller less polluting car for driving around the city or better still my bike.

Donald Fagen wrote:

Logistically, the OPs idea is just plain stupid, and could never be implemented fairly. Even though it would likely benefit me, I'm not blind enough to agree with it.

Whats logistically so hard about bumping up the price of fuel and abandoning Road Tax?

mike65

OKenora wrote:

Actual increase would be a bit less than that as the heavy road users (haulage, couriers, taxis) would pay a lot more but they would up their prices to compensate, but this would be detrimental to the economy.......

Rebates would be posible - all VAT registered business could reclaim fuel taxes above a certain amount.

Mike.

OKenora

Say at the moment fuel costs €1.00 at the pump, of which €0.40 is fuel and €0.60 is tax/duty. Say in the new situation fuel costs €1.50 at the pump, of which €0.40 is still fuel and €1.10 is tax/duty

A 50% hike in fuel prices bringing the fuel element of the pump price from €0.40 to €0.60 will cause a fuel price increase of 20% in the old situation and only 13% in the new situation!

If the fuel costs go from 40c to 60c then the tax goes from 60c to 90c, totalling a 50% increase in pump prices, Only way this would not happen is if the government introduces a fixed levy per litre to cover the abolished car taxes which would possibly be about 50c a litre.

In your example.....currently a 50% hike in fuel prices bringing the fuel element of the pump price from €0.40 to €0.60 will cause a fuel pump price increase of 50%. Under a fixed levy system....a 50% hike in fuel prices bringing the fuel element of the pump price from €0.40 to €0.60 will cause a fuel pump increase of 33%, but thats €2 a litre.....

unkel

Cion&#225 wrote: »

Doesnt the tax/duty increase though as a percentage of the fuel price?, i.e. if there was a 50% hike in fuel, would the tax not rise 50% also?
- i didn't think the tax is a fixed rate...

It is fixed. Just found this. I dunno if rates have changed since, but it shows excise of 44.3 cent per liter of petrol and 36.8 cent for diesel

Donald Fagen

RobAMerc wrote:

Whats logistically so hard about bumping up the price of fuel and abandoning Road Tax?

Even befroe we get to logistics, the government would never approve it to start with, despite your amazing PetitionOnline idea, so get your head out of the clouds and move on.