Car Tax - Surely theres enough of us

RobAMerc

Donald Fagen wrote:

Even befroe we get to logistics, the government would never approve it to start with, despite your amazing PetitionOnline idea, so get your head out of the clouds and move on.

What a brilliant retort and so obviously well though out- I tip my hat to you sir.

Its not the governments fault, its idiots who are willing to take whatever shi* they throw at them, grumble and move on rather than at least trying to stoke some form of protest.

unkel

Donald Fagen wrote:

the government would never approve it to start with

Not much of an argument, that

Anyway, they did it in France. So why not here?

Donald Fagen

RobAMerc wrote:

Its not the governments fault, its idiots who are willing to take whatever shi* they throw at them, grumble and move on rather than at least trying to stoke some form of protest.

Well, you're either commited to it or you're not. I reckon you're full of sh*t, and a ghey topic on the internet is as far as you'll take it, which makes you just as 'grumble and move on' as me - except I'm not gonna waste my time with a crappy online petition.
If you're 100% serious about this, and 100% committed, then stage a large physical protest, and take it formally to the powers that be: otherwise you're just another moan who won't change a thing, and a hypocrite for criticising me over doing nothing. All bark and no bite... prove me wrong.

My point is that you're just another grumbler who will bitch online, but do nothing about it - exactly what you just slagged me off for being. "Some form of protest" will make no difference - especially and online petiton, which has never changed anything ever: either take it all the way and do it right, or you're just wasting your own time, which makes you a double sucker.

Dades

Donald Fagen wrote:

I shouldn't get tax relief for being an idiot!

I agree.

Tony Danza

OKenora wrote:

You cannot factor a "road tax" replacement into fuel costs in Ireland...why ? Cos we are already getting shafted by the taxes on fuel.

As an example an average car could do about 35mpg and 12000miles a year. This car will cost about €700 a year in tax on average ? Fair figures ?

So putting the road tax on fuel means the government needs you to pay about €14 a week extra on your fuel. Your car uses about 28 litres a week. Thats a hike of 50c a litre. Would motorists accept that? Especially considering it would bring the cost of a litre to about €1.60 and the taxation part of that being about €1.20.

Actual increase would be a bit less than that as the heavy road users (haulage, couriers, taxis) would pay a lot more but they would up their prices to compensate, but this would be detrimental to the economy.......

Car tax as part of fuel price = great idea, but un-workable when trying to add it to an existing system.

That's the best post so far and gives a good explanation (the jest of the idea) of why road tax won't get abandoned other than the usual "don't drive a big car to feed your ego". I think that's a very fair point OKenora makes.

Blazer

Alun wrote:

No it isn't. There's tax (or rather duty) on fuel just like here, so in that sense, the more you drive the more you pay, but you still pay an annual car tax, KFZ-Steuer. It is based on an index related to how polluting your car is. This index is printed on your car's logbook, and you can look up that number in a table and see how much you have to pay per 100cm3 of engine capacity. So it's dependant not only on the engine emissions and type (you pay more for a diesel than petrol) but also on engine capacity.

You might have been thinking of France?

Nope..definitely Germany..it's been about 6 years since I was there so unless they changed it or somthing

RobAMerc

Donald Fagen wrote:

Well, you're either commited to it or you're not. I reckon you're full of sh*t, and a ghey topic on the internet is as far as you'll take it,

Your probably right - given the response from this forum I imagine there would be little point.

As for waisting my time - I doubt it - I've enjoyed the *intelligent* debate with the people of this forum.

Ger the man

Donald Fagen wrote:

Yawn. What a clichéd comeback; and from someone who needs to validate his manhood by calling himself "The Man" - how ironic. I have a huge cock, and a fast car, so how do you explain that one?

I drive a 4ltr XK8, and I happen to strongly disagree with the OP. My insurance is high, my tax is high, and my fuel costs are high - but guess what - I knew all this before I bought it and IT WAS MY CHOICE. How often I use the car is irrelevant. If I paid that much for a big engined car, and left it sitting there in my driveway, then I'm an idiot - I shouldn't get tax relief for being an idiot!

Logistically, the OPs idea is just plain stupid, and could never be implemented fairly. Even though it would likely benefit me, I'm not blind enough to agree with it, and think it could actually work.

Im not trying to validate anything (and dont have to?) Its just a bulletin board name.

craichoe

Road tax is for the development of the road network, it is not related to fuel costs.

It baffles me how you can argue with this, say three seperate road users.

1. Driving a Toyota starlet doing about 6000 - 8000km / year
2. Driving a A4 1.9 TDI 20,000km /year
3. A DAF Lorry with a 9.2 Litre Engine

Now in these cases, who is causing the most damage/wear to the road network.

The Lorry, then the A4 and then the Starlet.

So if you cause more wear/tear/damage. Then you should contribute more for the wear and tear, simple.

If you add the Tax onto petrol costs then its proportional to the Engine Size/Fuel Consumption.

Saying that the Government will rip us off/won't do it is a completely defeatist attitude. I've already raised this issue a few years back with my Local TD. Saying nothing will do nothing.

Bottom line, road tax is supposed to be for the roads, if your use them more. then you pay more.

BTW. I drive a 1.9TDI and my Road Tax is quite high compared to what it was on the 1.4L Petrol i had before, but i'd have no problem with paying on a pay as i use basis.

For another thing, if you tax your car for 12 months and its off the road for a period of time, the road tax you paid for that period of time is non refundable.

Theo rising it would be more expensive is silly, we don't have any evidence of this.

craichoe

Donald Fagen wrote:

Well, you're either commited to it or you're not. I reckon you're full of sh*t, and a ghey topic on the internet is as far as you'll take it, which makes you just as 'grumble and move on' as me - except I'm not gonna waste my time with a crappy online petition.
If you're 100% serious about this, and 100% committed, then stage a large physical protest, and take it formally to the powers that be: otherwise you're just another moan who won't change a thing, and a hypocrite for criticising me over doing nothing. All bark and no bite... prove me wrong.

My point is that you're just another grumbler who will bitch online, but do nothing about it - exactly what you just slagged me off for being. "Some form of protest" will make no difference - especially and online petiton, which has never changed anything ever: either take it all the way and do it right, or you're just wasting your own time, which makes you a double sucker.

Totally irish attitude, if you want to register dissatisfaction with Government policy you can do so through you local TD. Although i guess the next thing you'll say is "Arra shure he'll do nothing anyway"

Donald Fagen

craichoe wrote:

Totally irish attitude, if you want to register dissatisfaction with Government policy you can do so through you local TD. Although i guess the next thing you'll say is "Arra shure he'll do nothing anyway"

I have nothing worth complaining about at the moment. And when I do, I complain bigtime - but I don't vent & moan on the net, and slag off people for doing nothing about it....and then do nothing myself.
You don't know me - I get stuff done. My point was merely that the OP is saying I'd rather sit back and be shafted than do anything: and I said, that besides bitching on here, he's doing the EXACT same thing. So the only difference between myself and the OP, is that he's wasting his time getting wound up and starting a lame online petition and I'm not.

Tony Danza

craichoe wrote:

For another thing, if you tax your car for 12 months and its off the road for a period of time, the road tax you paid for that period of time is non refundable.

Just something I thought of when I read this, what's the deal with getting a discount if you pay for the year? On a 2 litre, if you pay for a year it's 539 and 299 for 6 months. That's a difference of €60 for what reason exactly?? There's no way the extra administration costs are an additional €60 considering it only costs an extra €5 (2 payments of €152) to tax it for 3 months as oppose to 6 months.

heyjude

OKenora wrote:

You cannot factor a "road tax" replacement into fuel costs in Ireland...why ? Cos we are already getting shafted by the taxes on fuel.

As an example an average car could do about 35mpg and 12000miles a year. This car will cost about €700 a year in tax on average ? Fair figures ?

Only a car with a 2100cc+ engine would be paying €700 or more per year in motor tax, which is probably a lot bigger than average. I would imagine that 1300-1500cc would be more average and that means road tax of €272 - €313 per year. Which gives a weekly cost of €5.23 - €6.02. Then using your mpg and annual driving figures, the average driver would use 29.7 litres per week, which means the motor tax cost could be covered for about 17-20c per litre, even less in the case of 1000cc cars

OKenora wrote:

So putting the road tax on fuel means the government needs you to pay about €14 a week extra on your fuel. Your car uses about 28 litres a week. Thats a hike of 50c a litre. Would motorists accept that? Especially considering it would bring the cost of a litre to about €1.60 and the taxation part of that being about €1.20.

Its only €14 if you assume everyone drives a merc or SUV and of course, you are forgetting about the savings that would arise from this method, in that at the moment nearly every county in the country has 1-2 or more motor tax offices(so possibly 40+ such offices), which could be downsized in that they would only be dealing with driving licences then.

Actual increase would be a bit less than that as the heavy road users (haulage, couriers, taxis) would pay a lot more but they would up their prices to compensate, but this would be detrimental to the economy.......

Most of these heavy road users drive diesel vehicles, which you could apply a lower rate to. Road diesel already has a different excise rate than petrol, so its not a new concept.

Golferx

Ger the man wrote:

Not at all, my car serves me well, I dont need to enhance any part of my body.

It does seem the brain is not functioning too well. How about some work there?

(Actually driving around in some cr4p heap does show a serious deficiency.)


Far too many idiots proposing ludicrous ideas, idiots who obviously know nothing about cars. A "Big" car, is one with large dimensions, it's got nothing to do with engine size

Look at BMW 316. Ireland is the only country with this car, purely down to Road tax. It's a pathetic excuse for a car. But the idiots that determine road tax deem it to be "better" for the environment than a more sensible engine size, like 2 litres.


Likewise the Toyota Avensis, shipped in Ireland with a gutless 1.6 litre engine, when the 1.8 or 2.0 is a much more sensible and safer car.

Likewise the Audi A4 1.9Tdi which is €4k cheaper to buy than the much cleaner and safer 2.0 Tdi

Tax levels are ridiculous and nonsensical. They have been determined on a nonsensical scale and are implemented by a Civil Service who seem to begrudge people driving proper cars, cars they cannot afford on their C Service wages.

Road Tax should be spent on Roads., In Ireland it goes to the local Co Council, but not for Roads. In Ireland it is an ownership tax, not a useage tax.

God forbid we are ever forced to drive around in sh1teboxes like 1.2 litre Micras, or Corollas.

Did I say it was nonsensical?

Ger the man

Golferx wrote:

God forbid we are ever forced to drive around in sh1teboxes like 1.2 litre Micras, or Corollas.

sh1teboxes?? Two fine examples of the most relaible and efficient cars in existence!

Donald Fagen

Ger the man wrote:

sh1teboxes?? Two fine examples of the most relaible and efficient cars in existence!

lol - ger the "man" loves girls cars. Ghey.

Ger the man

Donald Fagen wrote:

lol - ger the "man" loves girls cars. Ghey.

Learn to spell Donald

galwaytt

Tony Danza wrote:

Just something I thought of when I read this, what's the deal with getting a discount if you pay for the year? On a 2 litre, if you pay for a year it's 539 and 299 for 6 months. That's a difference of €60 for what reason exactly?? There's no way the extra administration costs are an additional €60 considering it only costs an extra €5 (2 payments of €152) to tax it for 3 months as oppose to 6 months.

Simple: They don't want too many people on the 6-months' on/6-months off scheme.... ) Which is more popular than you think...........


And remember all, we've seen all this before: it used to a 'horsepower' tax, then it became a 'cc' tax. All we're waiting for is a new name for it, really..........

e.g. a Wolseley 15/50 was..........15 taxable horsepower, but 50 actual horsepower. So a 14/50 would be cheaper to tax, but same power..........geddit?? This goes way back to when they tried to tax cars off the road (the first time, as distinct from now.....:rolleyes: ). Some genius Civil Servant noticed that Large Cars had Large Engines. And that Large Engines had Large Pistons. So, some weird formula came about, based on piston diameter. Bigger pistons = bigger tax. I kid you not.
Aha, but car mfrs got smart...........-ish..... they noticed they could increase engine power, and reduce tax in one go, by decreasing bore size, and increasing stroke length. And then the divergence in 'rated' vs. 'actual' horsepower came about, and the English motor industry adopted that weird system of badging as mentioned above............

And to think our car tax was based on that system until.................hold on, it's still based on it...............jeez.......

Golferx

Ger the man wrote:

sh1teboxes?? Two fine examples of the most relaible and efficient cars in existence!

In one sentence you have singularly shown a complete and utter lack of knowledge about cars and are, thus, eminently unsuitable to be taking part in this debate.


(And learn to spell reliable )

Ger the man

Golferx wrote:

In one sentence you have singularly shown a complete and utter lack of knowledge about cars and are, thus, eminently unsuitable to be taking part in this debate.


(And learn to spell reliable )

Oh Sorry! I never realised there was an entrance exam? lol. My sentence is based on the fact that the Japanese sell more cars than anyone else so I doubt they are 'sh1teboxes'?

nialler

I had Mr Gormless himself stand at my door while I ranted about the taxation system on cars and suggested precisely what Rob said quoted mileage and fuel economy. I pointed to my 3.2 litre car and said yes around town I get 10mpg so it'll hurt my pocket but I only do 10,000 miles a year, now get your average 2 litre mondeo salesman who does 60,000 a year who's polluting more? Your taxi drivers, your truck drivers, your BUS drivers.

Mr Gormless totally agreed with me (looking for vote) and categorically stated that what in fact I had said was his party's policy and if they got into government they infact would try to push this policy through.

He's the minister for the environment, and nothing has been mentioned sofar.

whosedaddy?

Mathew Reilly wrote:

Nope..definitely Germany..it's been about 6 years since I was there so unless they changed it or somthing

Actually the "Mineral oil" tax in Germany is NO a road tax replacement whatsoever. Its in place since the 1930s fore entirely differnt reasons and surely has changed quite a bit since. It covers not just Petrol/Diesel, but every petroleum based product (with differnt levels of taxs and subsidies)

The road tax is instead based on the emmissions your car produces.
Euro 1 - 6.. and many more... Depending on Diesl or Petrol you look up the tax that is multipled by the engine size (per 100 cc). And its a lot cheaper than over here.

While Tax on Diesel is significantly more expensive (more than twice the equivalent petrol engine) but Diesel is cheaper (relatively speaking) than Petrol - therefore you require a certain annual mileage to make it financially viable. While here road-tax is same - Diesel is cheaper... (ignoring that Diesel cars are more expensive off the forecourts).

They are planning on moving to CO2 emission based system soon.

Discussions about absorning Road-tax into Petrol prices has failed every single time it was tried.

Btw, Petrol/Diesel is one of the few things that is cheaper over here :-)

I think the government is just greedy - full stop (nothing new there) Lowering the Road-tax and all is fine.

unkel

whosedaddy? wrote:

The road tax is instead based on the emmissions your car produces.
Euro 1 - 6.. and many more... Depending on Diesl or Petrol you look up the tax that is multipled by the engine size (per 100 cc). And its a lot cheaper than over here.

Indeed. To give people an idea, tax on a 3.0l petrol car that is Euro 3 compliant is €200 per year

whosedaddy?

yeah forgot to provide some rates.. (per 100cc)

No class: 25.36€ (P) 37.58€(D)
Euro 1: 15.13€ (P) 27.35€(D)
Euro 2: 7.36€ (P) 16.05€(D)
Euro 3/4: 6.75€ (P) 15.44€(D)

If you drive an old oil burner without Euro norm/ particle filter you pay more than over here... also there is no exponential increase - penalising big engine cars.

the only reason they will put up taxes on Petrol will be driven by environmental concerns. If you can't afford the petrol you won't drive a car...
or drive it less - causing less pollution.

Mind you they have motorway tolling for Trucks. And they are more likely to introduce same for cars if it comes to pay for road maintenance -then putting it onto the petrol price.

Biro

steve06 wrote:

IMO by imposing the tax on the pump, you're taking away peoples right to luxury.... If I went out and bought a Ferrari 599 tomorrow and I pay 1300 tax, that's fair enough... I have the car that I want and I drive it when I want and if I drive it every day I put about 120 a week into petrol... it costs 7,540

but if I have to pay at the pump it gets a lot more expensive because with fuel prices rising and then an extra gevernment charge we could pay what... about 250 a week in petrol which will cost me 13,000 to have the luxury I want.

It's a joke.... a lot of people can afford to pay a lump sum on tax because they know it's coming. but to have to fork out an extra amount a week on petrol is an unforeseen expense because a: fuel prices change constantly and b: some journies are longer than others so you're really messing up peoples lives.

Luxury is a privelage, not a right. And if you bought a Ferrari 599, that means that you can afford a half a million euro to spend on a car. So do you think it's fair that you pay the same tax as the guy who paid 10 times less on a 2 year old Mercedes E320 CDI for example?
And is it fair that an Evo FQ400 has 20% lower tax than a 2.2 diesel Accord?
The Tax system is a joke. While I wouldn't be completely in favour of tax at the pumps, I do see the logic behind it. It does make sense.
I'd prefer to see tax on emissions brought in first though. Or even based on the official MPG figure on the cars in question, but emissions makes more sense.
Also it's a disgrace that they charge more to tax your car for 3 or 6 months. I don't care that they're trying to deter the 6 monthers... do you think that because it costs €60 more that they'll decide not to save €250 to dodge the tax?

Golferx

Biro wrote:

Luxury is a privelage, not a right. And if you bought a Ferrari 599, that means that you can afford a half a million euro to spend on a car. So do you think it's fair that you pay the same tax as the guy who paid 10 times less on a 2 year old Mercedes E320 CDI for example?
And is it fair that an Evo FQ400 has 20% lower tax than a 2.2 diesel Accord?
...............

Two questions there and I'll give my 2c worth.

1. Yes, I think it's fair to ask both the Ferrari and the Merc to pay the same Road Tax. You conveniently forget the purchaser of the Ferrari has already been rightly shafted by Revenue when buying the car and should NOT be taxed further. It's enough to pay tax in the Purchase and the extra consumption of the car without having to pay an annual "ownership" tax.

2. It's not fair the EVO should have a lower tax than the Accord. Both cars should have substantially lower Road Tax bills. Same as above, the initial purchase price of the car already contains more than enough ownership tax without having to be ridden rotten every year with a tax that disappears into a big fiscal hole.

As I said earlier, only an idiot could have come up with such a tax raising system and only an idiot would think it equitable and fair.

Dades

Biro wrote:

Luxury is a privelage, not a right. And if you bought a Ferrari 599, that means that you can afford a half a million euro to spend on a car. So do you think it's fair that you pay the same tax as the guy who paid 10 times less on a 2 year old Mercedes E320 CDI for example?

You can be sure the guy driving the Mercedes does a lot more mileage than the Ferrari owner, and as Golferx said the Ferrari driver has paid about €125,000 already into the exchequer.

This ideal of paying by road/fuel usage will never catch on as Irish people have such chips on their shoulders with class issues.

unkel

The Atheist wrote:

This ideal of paying by road/fuel usage will never catch on as Irish people have such chips on their shoulders with class issues.

Starting to look like you're right, Atheist

Tipsy Mac

The whole road tax system is as backward as the folks who work in the civil service in this country who in turn are the workers of gombeen FF.

Example..My next door neighbour could have a 1990 Nissan Micra and do 20k miles a year, I could have a Toyota Prius and do 1k miles a year, my car emits many times less pollution and I clog up the roads much less as I do 1/200th the milage yet he pays €151 a year and I pay over twice this, €313 a year, where is the fairness in that it doesn't work on the pollution arguement it doesnt work on the road use arguement, it doesnt work on the safety arguement but it does work perfect in backward land Ireland. I sometimes wish the EU would take this country over and run it would atleast some sensibility and fairness.

jozi

The tax is to pay for road maintenance, rite?

Lighter cars damage the road less, presumably. (wear and tear)

Why not pay tax in relation to the weight of the car? (to my knowledge they do it this way in holland)