6 year protection of goods just heard on Newstalk 106

gunsofbrixton

Hey,

just heard on newstalk about the protetion you have on goods that are not of merchantable condition regardless of warranty you have 6 years protection. under some 1980 act.

My Q is if i have a laptop out of warranty bought from Dell and the motherboard/screen/hard drive fails can i reasonably contend that the goods are not of merchantable quality and not fit for purpose therefore i have a right to a refund/repair/replaement.

The guy was adamant on Newstalk in regards to an ipod that stopped working that the consumer pursue it to the small claims court..........

any ideas out there

whippet

it all depends on the nature of the fault and the time scale involved.

Hard drives can fail at any time, due to the nature of how they work etc ...

to behonest if you went looking for a refund / replacement laptop after 4 or 5 years due to a failed hard drive I don't think a judge in the country would entertain your claim !

gunsofbrixton

yeah see where your coming from however if your motherboard/screen fails after 14 months surely you can argue that laptop was obviously not of merchantable quality and therefore not fit for sale.

Wonder what kinda fight Dell would put up if you threatened to open up a case with the small claims court...........

I'll tell you my distinct interest in this as I'm buying a laptop that is just out of warranty and this little piece of info could put my mind at ease slightly

Nody

gunsofbrixton wrote:

Hey,

just heard on newstalk about the protetion you have on goods that are not of merchantable condition regardless of warranty you have 6 years protection. under some 1980 act.

My Q is if i have a laptop out of warranty bought from Dell and the motherboard/screen/hard drive fails can i reasonably contend that the goods are not of merchantable quality and not fit for purpose therefore i have a right to a refund/repair/replaement.

The guy was adamant on Newstalk in regards to an ipod that stopped working that the consumer pursue it to the small claims court..........

any ideas out there

He's full of it is the long and short story. The merchantable condition can apply UP TO 6 years and this is for products expected to last that long and longer (oven, refrigerator etc.). If you bring in your mobile phone after 6 years demanding compensation you would be laughed out of the court room and rightly so. It all comes down to what is the expected life of a product and if it breaks down before this. I know in Norway for example both Nokia and Ericsson have argued that a phone only have a ONE year life expectancy (can't recall the verdict on that one though).

The second problem is that you have to show that there was actually a problem with the product it self; that is you can't turn up one day with a computer you dipped in water and say you want it replaced. This is why for example you have the whole issue with moisture on mobile phones. The company can claim that the moisture is not THEIR fault and since you caused the problem of the product they are not liable to fix it.

These two "minor" parts tend to be forgotten by the people that want to claim 6 year warranties etc.

gunsofbrixton

whippet wrote:

Hard drives can fail at any time, due to the nature of how they work etc.!

just on that point you could on the otherhand argue that selling a good that is liable to fail at any time constitutes any item that is not of merchantable quality and therefore you should be covered under this act

Nody

gunsofbrixton wrote:

just on that point you could on the otherhand argue that selling a good that is liable to fail at any time constitutes any item that is not of merchantable quality and therefore you should be covered under this act

You hear that Microsoft? I demand a refund for Windows!

gunsofbrixton

see what your sayin alright Nody.

How long do you reckon a €2000 laptop should last about 13 months!!!!!!!!!!

So this thing is really about the expected lifespan of product and i suppose the price you paid.

Think you could argue to a judge that a €2000 laptop should last 2-3years.

Am i mad rallying against planned obsoleteness or would you expect a 2-3 yr old laptop to keep working that long

Nody

gunsofbrixton wrote:

see what your sayin alright Nody.

How long do you reckon a €2000 laptop should last about 13 months!!!!!!!!!!

So this thing is really about the expected lifespan of product and i suppose the price you paid.

Think you could argue to a judge that a €2000 laptop should last 2-3years.

Am i mad rallying against planned obsoleteness or would you expect a 2-3 yr old laptop to keep working that long

All depends on the judge, the company and how it is sold. For example as the company I'd argue that it is not a laptop but a notebook. That it has a life duration of 3 years if it is taken care of properly and then promtly turn around showing how it has not. For example showing that it has been carried around a lot or been bumped around where as a normal notebook would only be expected to be changed 5 times etc. and that this causes parts to lose. Throw in the manual showing the "proper care for the notebook" and all the stuff you can think of.

In short show that yes, it does have that life expectancy but you fecked it over and that it is actually YOUR fault.

Having said that Dell (and most other laptop companies from my experience) tends to be quite generous with replacing parts 'cause they know they tend to break a lot anyway.

daymobrew

gunsofbrixton wrote:

The guy was adamant on Newstalk in regards to an ipod that stopped working that the consumer pursue it to the small claims court..........

I was surprised that the presenter seemed to think an iPod failing after 2 years was okay.

mickoneill30

daymobrew wrote:

I was surprised that the presenter seemed to think an iPod failing after 2 years was okay.

I didn't hear it but doesn't the battery fail or wear down before that anyway and it's not a user replaceable part?

gunsofbrixton

i'd be inclined to say that

1> the cost to Dell or most other large scale manufactorers in replacing/servcing a 2-3 year old laptop would be minimal

2> the above replacment/repair would most definitly be more cost effective than an appearance by a representative at a small claims court

3> plus the negative publicity etc. that you could, if you were that way inclined, bring on the company. You know "talk to Joe"

4>finally think a judge in most cases would come down on the side of the consumer. Certainly the consumer Vs. billionaire dollar multinational corporation.

Anyway don't think i'd be that way inclined but it just spiked my thinking

thefinalstage

mickoneill30 wrote:

I didn't hear it but doesn't the battery fail or wear down before that anyway and it's not a user replaceable part?

They are very easily replaced by the user.

whippet

gunsofbrixton wrote:

i'd be inclined to say that

1> the cost to Dell or most other large scale manufactorers in replacing/servcing a 2-3 year old laptop would be minimal

2> the above replacment/repair would most definitly be more cost effective than an appearance by a representative at a small claims court

3> plus the negative publicity etc. that you could, if you were that way inclined, bring on the company. You know "talk to Joe"

4>finally think a judge in most cases would come down on the side of the consumer. Certainly the consumer Vs. billionaire dollar multinational corporation.

Anyway don't think i'd be that way inclined but it just spiked my thinking

my inclination would be the total opposite,

1) the cost of setting a precident of repairing out of warranty laptops could be astronomical and eventually lead to this cost being added to the price of a new machine. Once they do it for on person they will have to do it for everyone.

2) Depending on what way you look at it, Dell would be in a position to prove that you chose not to take them up on the extended warranty of the product when you ordered it and that you were fully aware that at the time of purchase that Dell were only offering a 1 year warranty

3) The 'bring on th Joe' mentality is a nasty way for some misinformed people to drag a company's name through the mud. Regadless of how the company defends itself these call in show alway take the slant of the poor customer v's the big bad multinational ... regardless of who is in the right

4) The judge should and probably will come down on the side of the law, if the judge feels that you have a case he will rule in your favour, however if he feels that the company has a vaild case and proof of this he will judge in their favour.

It sounds to me that you just want something that you really know you are not entitled to, and a prepared to pimp yourself to get that.

And I think that none of this has any relevance to you anyway as you are talking about buying the laptop second hand, therefore Dell have absolutly no commitment to you whatsoever!!! your contract will be with the person who is selling it to you !!

gunsofbrixton

whippet i never considered pursuing such a course in fact its what we might call a "thought experiment"......................

however there is a serious issue underlying all of this and thats the consumers right to a good quality product, under your rational if a consumer wants/expects a good to last two years then he/she must buy an extended warranty for two years because thats just the way things are.

From this we can infer that when buying a good that has 1 year warranty we should rationally expect that good to only function for 1 year which i think is a state of affairs that anyone would object too.

psicic

There's a common perception - mostly imported from the American perspective where consumer law is incredibly weak - that the warranty is it and that legislation is secondary.

The rights of the consumer are pretty clear.

A warranty basically does not place a lifespan on a product, or an amount of time it's reasonable for a consumer to make a claim against a company on an item. Maybe that was the point they were trying to make on the show?

The definition of a warranty, as far as the consumer is concerned, can be seen as a 'no quibble' exchange/replace/repair guarantee. Of course, it's more qualified then that, but at its most basic, that's what it is.

A warranty can never take away statutory rights - it's just while it's in force, it usually adds enough rights to the consumer to make it worthwhile to use.

Once the warranty expires, the legislation is still in force and the case for repair/replacement can still be reasonably made. It's just now the consumer will probably have to represent themselves to the company and actually assert their rights.

Small Claims court should really only be whipped out if the company has refused the consumer or want to charge the consumer for the repair/replacement. (American practice: out of warranty...then pay x/y/z for repair)

For a high price item like a laptop, if something goes wrong with it that isn't due to misuse of the user, it's reasonable to seek repair/replacement definitely in the first two to three years. Hard drives are very dodgey and I think you'd have a problem there, though they do have rated life spans from the manufacturers.

6 years would be stretching it for a laptop(and most definitely for an iPod) in my opinion, but in theory you could argue the case with them.

Nody

however there is a serious issue underlying all of this and thats the consumers right to a good quality product

No, they have the right to have the product last as long as can reasonbly be expected by said product; quality has nothing to do with it. Of course most companies will do their best to argue that that time is very short as well (to limit their own liabilities).

under your rational if a consumer wants/expects a good to last two years then he/she must buy an extended warranty for two years because thats just the way things are.

And have more hazzle free way of replacing it and also include reasons not included in the base warranty of the product being faulty due to manufacture error. For the record I've never worked with Dell or anyone other direct selling computer company in Ireland. I did a 6 month stint in a computer store over 10 years ago back home and that is it but I got the same type of people demanding replacements back then as well .

Sponge Bob

dudes

a laptop or pc or ipod or mobile phone did not exist when the act was written in 1980

a tv or fridge or washing machine did

psicic

Sponge Bob wrote:

a laptop or pc or ipod or mobile phone did not exist when the act was written in 1980

Most legislation is legacy. Consumer legislation in Ireland was semi-consolidated in the Consumer Protection Act 2007. The 1980 Act was not seen as something that needed revision, despite the existence of electronic items.

People are lead to believe that an electronic item like a laptop will last for two or three years. Sure, it won't be top of the line anymore, but it will still function. If it doesn't - like the battery spontaneously failing despite the consumer being told it is rated for five years - then replacement should be made by the company. It's not only about the product that's sold, but the reasonable expectation of that product.

This isn't meant as a personal attack on anyone's views - but it's a falsehood to dismiss existing legislation based on it's age. It would sound a bit paranoid if I were to attribute this to a conspiracy by companies, but never forget they are there to maximise profit, not protect your rights. Don't expect them to be impartial.

Sale of Goods and Service Act 1980 is legislation. It is enforceable and valid on electronic goods, outside of the warranty period. Again, most people in this country don't stick up for these rights, and that makes getting them respected all the more difficult.

chrislad

Ring Dell and tell them you are entitled to 2 years warranty under EU law. They should fix it. They did for my sister when I rang them.

gunsofbrixton

chrislad, is there such a law????????????

what did they say to you when you came up with that......

chrislad

They said they'd call me back. I said this to them about EU law after they said it was 300euro to fix the screen to mobo connection. They rang me back and said that they would fix it but just the once off. I told them they would fix it again if the part broke with 90 days or the remainder of my 2 months left in my 2 years.

Link

http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l32022.htm

Sponge Bob

what EU directive and when did it come in Chrislad ??

was it an inspiron or a latitude ( dealt with in India or Dublin ) . Indian call centre employees are not known for their training in EU consumer law.

chrislad

That link has all the information of when it came in (1999).

Indian guys.

gunsofbrixton

thats great news chrislad,

screw them extensions on warranty what a scam

Elessar

The EU directive (which includes the 6 year directive) is not applicable here, according to the National Consumer Agency. I sent a mail about this to them and this was the response:

Thank you for your email of 8 July in relation to information on Directive
199/44/EC, which you viewed on www.euroconsumatori.org. I have checked the
details on the web address in your email and found that the information was
not accurate.

This directive was transposed into Irish Law in 2003, SI No 11, European
Communities (Certain Aspects of the Sale of Goods and Associated
Guarantees) Regulation 2003.

These regulations are expressed to be in addition to and not in
substitution for the 1980 Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, which
provide Irish consumers with certain statutory rights when they buy goods.
In some respects the level of protection they give is not as high as that
contained in the 1980 Act and in some respects about the same. The two-year
limitation period provided for in the Directive was not transposed into
Irish Law (SI No 11) as to do so would have lowered the threshold of
consumer protection where the limitation period is six years.

The Directive was intended to give a minimum level of protection in terms
of legal guarantees (referred to in Ireland as statutory rights) and
commercial guarantees (what is referred to as added value guarantees that
offer protection in excess of statutory rights).

I hope that this answers your question. For further information please
contact me at the telephone number/address below.

Yours sincerely

A bit vague, but essentially the 1980 Act always stands regardless of EU directives.

gunsofbrixton

Good info,Elssar.

Nice too know that our consumer protection rights are more robust than those set down by the EU.

When dealing with a multinational however such as Dell knowing about the EU directive could be more handy(if your good is less than two years old) as an EU law has lets say more cache value............and may ring a few bells with an Indian Customer Care Manager.

I'm quite surprised by the recourse you have as regards faulty goods, god think of all those extended warranties on TV's and Computers out there. I always knew there were a money makin scam but now even more so

chrislad

According to the Irish law here, (and I got this told to me by someone who actually deals with law on a daily basis), is that the EU law is in ADDITION to your rights. The link below is the Irish law

http://193.178.1.79/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1186010810&view=ag-view&numhitsfound=2&query_rule=(($query3)):legtitle&query3=consumer goods&docid=25516&docdb=SIs&dbname=Acts&dbname=SIs&sorting=none&operator=and&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1

It states 'Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), these Regulations are in addition to, and not in substitution for, any other enactment relating to the sale of goods or the terms of contracts concluded with consumers'

So it DOES apply here, but since the Sales of Goods Act is a stronger piece of legislation, apparently, that takes precedence. That said, it's always nice to have the two laws behind you.

psicic

Excellent info, chrislad, didn't know about the directive myself. Here's a shorter link to the relevant SI. If you know the name of the SI or Act you are looking for, http://www.irishstatuebook.ie is a great site.

Elessar, that good to know as well. It's ironic that if we as consumers go quoting EU Directives to companies in Ireland, they naturally assume that they're better then Irish Laws.

I suppose the lesson is that - depending on situation - in the first two years it might be easier to throw the EU Directive at a company, but that for once Ireland seems to be ahead of the curve legislation-wise and our native legislation is robust.

I wonder what type of radical Civil Servant managed to slip through and write the 1980 Act? Must have had some weird idea that legislation was actually there to serve the people!!!