The 148th Manchester Derby Thread (May Include Score)

PHB

and City's defence was carved open a couple of times by Derby let alone West Ham.

Just as it was today. Tevez should have scored at least once, maybe twice, Evra should have at least gotten the darn thing on target, Scholes should have scored. City's defense was ripped apart imo, and were it not for Richards incredible pace City would have concedded many times. Richards however was immense.

Peyton Manning

FFS, I took Richards out of my Fantasy Football team too. AAARRRGGHHH.

Mr Alan

PHB: hope we do you a favour too. But in fairness, if i was a United fan, i'd drop the smugness from last year, and admit that Liverpool are in with as much of, if not more of a shot at the title than you lot.

As i said all summer, you lot overachieved last year. This was exactly the type of game you would have won, 2-1, 3-1 last year

Guy:Incognito

millersangel wrote:

PHB: hope we do you a favour too. But in fairness, if i was a United fan, i'd drop the smugness from last year, and admit that Liverpool are in with as much of, if not more of a shot at the title than you lot.

As i said all summer, you lot overachieved last year. This was exactly the type of game you would have won, 2-1, 3-1 last year

Why are we talkign about doing Utd a favour at this stage?Are we counting ourselves out already.

Boo Urns.

Mr Alan

not at all. just Utd fans don't count us as a title threat, so would view it as us doing them a favour.

Necronomicon

millersangel wrote:

As i said all summer, you lot overachieved last year.

That's just a mind-boggling statement. United were by far and away the best side in the Premiership last season.

Mr Alan

i know, but you over-performed.

deserved to win the league, but you over-performed none the less

Peyton Manning

millersangel wrote:

As i said all summer, you lot overachieved last year.

How so? We were the best team without a shadow of a doubt in the PL last season...


We "over-performed"?? How does that even make sense?

And I would much rather over-achieve like we have than put up with your years of underachievement...

kaisersose77

he's trolling as usual

Mr Alan

good man kaisersose, will ya ever piss off and stop calling me a troll cause you don't agree with me.

my point is simply, that you won the premiership, and deserved to.

but it was the same team that no one thought was good enough to win the league at the start of last season. Won a rack of games last year that you didn't deserve to win. today was exactly the type of game you's would have won last year

mike65

Watched most of the game and I guess City were lucky in that Tevez is'nt up to speed but apart from not being able to string too mnay passes together City played pretty well. The CBs were exellent.

Mike.

PHB

Well, considering our first choice strikers and our best player is injured, I think in about 3 games time, we'll start building up a massive run.
Keep in mind, the following players are injured/suspended
Rooney, Saha, Ole, Ronaldo, Park, Anderson, Neville,
The only team that I think could still keep winning with that much depth missing is Chelsea. Of course, that's the way it goes, but once those players start to come back, we'll be back to our old selves. I still expect at least 2nd place.

Liverpool still haven't done anything to suggest they were gona be a force this season, hell the 2-1 win over Villa was just a 2-1 over Villa, and have done nothing else. Also my sig.
Until Liverpool suggest otherwise (i.e. get a good run going) I'll keep hoping that they beat Chelsea. If they can do that, it's only a 4 point gap. That's doable. 7 points is gona make it very difficult. So to re-iterate, come on the pool :P

Peyton Manning

Youre saying that we deserved to win the premier league and it was the only trophy we won. How is that over achieving? And just because we werent expected to win the league last season doesnt validate your point. Once the team showed people how they can play, it was obvious that Utd werent over achieving, it was the people who were under-expecting.

Your logic is baffling.

Mr Alan

alright archimedes, i really don't think wat i'm trying to say is that complicated- maybe wipe those tears out of your eyes and read again . . .

last year . . . i think . . . . your players . . . .played better . . . .than they actually are. And that . . . .you won .. . . games you did not . . . .deserve to win.

get it?

kaisersose77

no team wins the league anymore without being lucky in games throughout the season. Chelsea got plenty of late goals last season aswell.

theres no 9-0's and 5-0's etc like there was 10 yrs ago, when Utd in particular seemed to hammer crap teams the whole time.

PHB

How can you play better than you actual are? I wish I could do that.

MrJoeSoap

Unlucky United, but when some of your fans are as cocky as they tend to be, you deserve a bit of a beating every now and then.

Good to see that money doesn't always buy you success... oh wait...

el rabitos

PHB wrote:

Also my sig.

you cant win the premiership without winning games either

a favour ffs

smemon

hard to criticise Utd, they were all over city today..

60% possession, 11 corners to city's 0 :rolleyes:

Richards and Dunne needed big games and gave them.

If Utd can play like that without rooney & ronaldo, neville, saha etc.. i'll be happy...

they couldn't do much more tbh and it was just 'one of those days'...

Brian Capture

millersangel wrote:

And that . . . .you won .. . . games you did not . . . .deserve to win.

That happens with Man Utd every year.

Great to see them in 16th place.

yayamark

finally city got some luck when utd have got it over the last 10 years.

Wheres utd depth now?

Devious

millersangel wrote:

alright archimedes, i really don't think wat i'm trying to say is that complicated- maybe wipe those tears out of your eyes and read again . . .

last year . . . i think . . . . your players . . . .played better . . . .than they actually are. And that . . . .you won .. . . games you did not . . . .deserve to win.

get it?

Which makes more sense? That these players "played better than they actually are" (:rolleyes: ) or these players are better than you thought?

millersangel

millersangel wrote:

Won a rack of games last year that you didn't deserve to win. today was exactly the type of game you's would have won last year

Agreed. Was thinkin that yesterday. U need to win the ones u dont deserve if ur gonna win the league.


Between Vidic hitting the bar and some of the chances Tevez and Scholes had I still cant believe we didnt score. Thats football I guess. As long as we win at OT! Need to start winnin soon though

Hobart

I don't think Utd deserved to win, no more than Chelsea deserved their draw yesterday. Yes, they had the lions share of the possesion and yes they created more chances. They simply could not convert them, that's the issue.

I also don't buy into this "Tevez is not ready" crap that seems to be floating around. He had a full prem competitive season last, as much as the rest, and played more competitive football pre-season than most of the players he is playing with.

The fact is that he showed some of the aspects of his play yesterday, that he is well known for. Yes he can be brilliant, but sometimes he can run up into dark alleys and be totally clueless when in possesion.

I don't accept that the Man City goal was lucky either, it is actually disingenuous to suggest that. Yes it had a (mild) deflection, but it was so well struck and had so much curl on it that VDS would not have saved it without the mild deflection.

Utd defo missed Ronaldo and Rooney, and again, it's been pointed out the the selling of Smith and Rossi, was not the master stroke that some posters on this forum think it was.

I don't rule Manu out of the title race at this stage, but 3 more games like this and I would.

Mitch Connor

Hobart wrote:

I don't think Utd deserved to win, no more than Chelsea deserved their draw yesterday. Yes, they had the lions share of the possesion and yes they created more chances. They simply could not convert them, that's the issue.

I also don't buy into this "Tevez is not ready" crap that seems to be floating around. He had a full prem competitive season last, as much as the rest, and played more competitive football pre-season than most of the players he is playing with.

The fact is that he showed some of the aspects of his play yesterday, that he is well known for. Yes he can be brilliant, but sometimes he can run up into dark alleys and be totally clueless when in possesion.

I don't accept that the Man City goal was lucky either, it is actually disingenuous to suggest that. Yes it had a (mild) deflection, but it was so well struck and had so much curl on it that VDS would not have saved it without the mild deflection.

Utd defo missed Ronaldo and Rooney, and again, it's been pointed out the the selling of Smith and Rossi, was not the master stroke that some posters on this forum think it was.

I don't rule Manu out of the title race at this stage, but 3 more games like this and I would.

Tevez may have played in the Cope America, but then he went about a month without a single proper training session, that was never going to help.

The City goal was lucky - unless Geovanni ment to hit it in off Vidic.

As for Rossi and Smith, who the hell on here said that was a 'master stroke' Why would anyone, ever, say that SELLING a player is a master stroke.

Mr Alan

I thought he was training with Utd long before he signed for them?

Loomis

Hobart wrote:

I don't think Utd deserved to win, no more than Chelsea deserved their draw yesterday. Yes, they had the lions share of the possesion and yes they created more chances. They simply could not convert them, that's the issue.

I also don't buy into this "Tevez is not ready" crap that seems to be floating around. He had a full prem competitive season last, as much as the rest, and played more competitive football pre-season than most of the players he is playing with.

The fact is that he showed some of the aspects of his play yesterday, that he is well known for. Yes he can be brilliant, but sometimes he can run up into dark alleys and be totally clueless when in possesion.

I don't accept that the Man City goal was lucky either, it is actually disingenuous to suggest that. Yes it had a (mild) deflection, but it was so well struck and had so much curl on it that VDS would not have saved it without the mild deflection.

Utd defo missed Ronaldo and Rooney, and again, it's been pointed out the the selling of Smith and Rossi, was not the master stroke that some posters on this forum think it was.

I don't rule Manu out of the title race at this stage, but 3 more games like this and I would.

What game were you watching?
The reason the shot had so much curl was because of the 'mild' deflection. His shot was going right at VDS, half way between the post and centre of the goal at best, it was a comfortable save only for the defelection.

Mitch Connor

millersangel wrote:

I thought he was training with Utd long before he signed for them?

Nope - the first day he trained with United was the Friday before the community shield, and even that was just for a kick about. His first proper training session was the Monday after the Community Shield, so that is about 2 weeks of training he has had since the Copa America finished. He was off sunning himself for the rest.

Hobart

The ball set off with a curl on it, simple as. It was goal bound. I'm not a physicist, but that's how it looked to me.

Tevez has been training intensively with Manu for the last 1 - 2 weeks, plus he played in the Copa America (a competitive run to the final no less), plus if he is any sort of a professional (which I assume he is) he would be keeping himself physically fit irrespective of whether he was signed to Manu or not. The facts do not add up, he is/was as match fit as any other Manu player.

As for the Smith/Rossi sales, there were/are posters here who claimed that it was good business, 1 in particular said that he was "glad to see Smith go" and I personally was berated for suggesting that SAF had made a mistake in selling both of these strikers when he had no obvious cover up front (a point which has been borne out to the detriment of Manu). I was reliably informed that this was part of the great master plan (maybe I'm paraphrasing) and that squad rotation would solve this apparent lack of cover and depth. When I pointed out that Saha is always a kick away from 2 months out, Giggs is too old, and Rooney is not an out and out striker, again this magical "squad rotation" was highlighted and sure how could I have an opinion as SAF is paid "millions" to make these decisions and so therefore his decision must be the correct one!!:)

PHB

Hobart wrote:

The ball set off with a curl on it, simple as. It was goal bound. I'm not a physicist, but that's how it looked to me.

Look again, it's clearly going to be saved until the deflection, clearly.
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=0ECNFEYM

It doesn't mean United shouldn't have won, but it doesn't change the fact that it was from a deflection.

Tevez has been training intensively with Manu for the last 1 - 2 weeks, plus he played in the Copa America (a competitive run to the final no less), plus if he is any sort of a professional (which I assume he is) he would be keeping himself physically fit irrespective of whether he was signed to Manu or not. The facts do not add up, he is/was as match fit as any other Manu player.

Em, the Copa America was last season, then he had his holiday. That's like saying when last season Gerrard was not fully fit at the start because he didn't get a full pre-season cause of the World Cup that he was as fit as somebody like Finnan. He wasn't, and Tevez isn't now.

As for the Smith/Rossi sales, there were/are posters here who claimed that it was good business, 1 in particular said that he was "glad to see Smith go" and I personally was berated for suggesting that SAF had made a mistake in selling both of these strikers when he had no obvious cover up front (a point which has been borne out to the detriment of Manu). I was reliably informed that this was part of the great master plan (maybe I'm paraphrasing) and that squad rotation would solve this apparent lack of cover and depth. When I pointed out that Saha is always a kick away from 2 months out, Giggs is too old, and Rooney is not an out and out striker, again this magical "squad rotation" was highlighted and sure how could I have an opinion as SAF is paid "millions" to make these decisions and so therefore his decision must be the correct one!!:)

I was glad to see Smith go, and I stand by that. If he was on the pitch I doubt we would have done any better. Annoyed to see Rossi go but that's the way it goes. It's clear to all United need another striker, but with a tiny bit more luck we woulda got away with it. We didn't, that's football.

Hobart

PHB wrote:

Look again, it's clearly going to be saved until the deflection, clearly.
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=0ECNFEYM

It doesn't mean United shouldn't have won, but it doesn't change the fact that it was from a deflection.

Fair enough, it had more of an influence on the shot than I previously thought. VDS may have saved it, but for the deflection.

PHB wrote:

Em, the Copa America was last season, then he had his holiday. That's like saying when last season Gerrard was not fully fit at the start because he didn't get a full pre-season cause of the World Cup that he was as fit as somebody like Finnan. He wasn't, and Tevez isn't now.

The Copa America finished on the 15th of July. He played up to the 15th of July. He trained with Manu on the 3rd of August, and has been training since. I don't accept that his physical fitness deteriorated to such an extent in a couple of weeks holidays to render him unfit. As for his match fitness, he was as match fit as any other Manu player, I don't see how you could argue he was not.

PHB wrote:

I was glad to see Smith go, and I stand by that. If he was on the pitch I doubt we would have done any better. Annoyed to see Rossi go but that's the way it goes. It's clear to all United need another striker, but with a tiny bit more luck we woulda got away with it. We didn't, that's football.

True, that's football. I'm not arguing the toss here in relation to another striker, merely reflecting on the fact that I was told to STFU (not literally) when I suggested that Manu were going to be tight for strikers.

PHB

Hobart wrote:

The Copa America finished on the 15th of July. He played up to the 15th of July. He trained with Manu on the 3rd of August, and has been training since. I don't accept that his physical fitness deteriorated to such an extent in a couple of weeks holidays to render him unfit. As for his match fitness, he was as match fit as any other Manu player, I don't see how you could argue he was not.

The whole point of the off-season is that he allows his body to rest. Otherwise it'd be like playing two seasons in a row and he'd get very very tired. Well, he's only played two games this season. Most United players have played at least 6.

Xavi6

Firstly I just wanna say how proud I am to be a City fan today. Absolutely fantastic result. The defensive performance was one of the best I've seen from any team in a long time. Considering we went into the game with only two players who featured in the last derby that only took place in May I thought we played well. Admittedly we were under the cosh most of the game and didn't offer much up front but to grind out a result like that is something we wouldn't have done under Pearce.

To start with six new signings and a very nervous young goalkeeper was going to pose a couple of problems and that was evident but with Dunne, Richards and Hamann we looked so solid.

As for United, well their problems are plain to see. Tevez's miss was horrendous and Fergie's reaction was priceless. Highlight of the game! Smith should never have been sold. To throw young Campbell on screams desperation. I don't think he even touched the ball. Nothing wrong with back four who were solid, and Hargreaves impressed a lot. To say United desreved to win is ridiculous. Possession is only good if you do something with it.

It's a strange feeling to know United can't catch us for at least three games. Sven has brought excitement to the club and hopefully can keep it up with one or two more additions next week. I intend to enjoy it while it lasts!

Mr Alan

Do people think the result would've been different if Rooney was playing? I'm not so sure

PHB

Absolutely I do, the chances that Tevez had Rooney would have put away at least one.

Loomis

Xavi6 wrote:

Firstly I just wanna say how proud I am to be a City fan today. Absolutely fantastic result. The defensive performance was one of the best I've seen from any team in a long time. Considering we went into the game with only two players who featured in the last derby that only took place in May I thought we played well. Admittedly we were under the cosh most of the game and didn't offer much up front but to grind out a result like that is something we wouldn't have done under Pearce.

To start with six new signings and a very nervous young goalkeeper was going to pose a couple of problems and that was evident but with Dunne, Richards and Hamann we looked so solid.

As for United, well their problems are plain to see. Tevez's miss was horrendous and Fergie's reaction was priceless. Highlight of the game! Smith should never have been sold. To throw young Campbell on screams desperation. I don't think he even touched the ball. Nothing wrong with back four who were solid, and Hargreaves impressed a lot. To say United desreved to win is ridiculous. Possession is only good if you do something with it.

It's a strange feeling to know United can't catch us for at least three games. Sven has brought excitement to the club and hopefully can keep it up with one or two more additions next week. I intend to enjoy it while it lasts!

United created far more than City. They didn't take the chances. But they did create and therefore on performance deserved to win. Richards was amazing and saved them at least 4 times from tab-ins. Tevez looks like a bad miss but the speed the ball came at him he couldn't react fast enough. Perhaps if he were taller he might have reached but the speed the ball came at him made it easier to miss than score despite how close he was to goal

Xavi6

Mr. Anderson wrote:

United created far more than City. They didn't take the chances. But they did create and therefore on performance deserved to win.

That's exactly it though. so what if you create fifteen or twenty chances? That doesn't win you games. City had maybe two chances, took one and got three points. How can you 'deserve to win' if you can't score?

Mr Alan

PHB wrote:

Absolutely I do, the chances that Tevez had Rooney would have put away at least one.

I ain't so sure. Rooney is hardly the most clinical striker. He is almost identical to Tevez.

PHB

I don't think that's true. Rooney has shown himself to be far more clincical a finisher than Tevez. Also he is faster, and in those two breakthoughs I doubt Richards woulda caught Rooney.

Mr Alan

can't help but think Richards would've caught anyone yesterday. he played like a man posessed.

Mitch Connor

millersangel wrote:

can't help but think Richards would've caught anyone yesterday. he played like a man posessed.

agreed - he was awesome at the back.

However, i think Rooney would have had better acceleration/strength to get clear of Dunne. It was Dunne holding Tevez up that allowed Richards to get back at all. If Dunne had not been there I don't think Richards would have been able to get into position to make a legal tackle.

PHB

Maybe, I think somebody with Rooneys acceleration or Saha's pace woulda got past him once. I ain't making excuses, obviously our squad is weak, but the fact that we were missing Saha and Rooney, who I think would have made a big difference yesterday, means that when they are back we'll be fine.

The Rooster

I was surprised at how slow Tevez looked. Maybe it was just that Richards is very fast.

Loomis

Xavi6 wrote:

That's exactly it though. so what if you create fifteen or twenty chances? That doesn't win you games. City had maybe two chances, took one and got three points. How can you 'deserve to win' if you can't score?

Scoring means you win/may win. Bossing the game in terms of possession AND chances means you deserve to win the game because you did more than the opposition. Just cause you score doesn't mean you deserve to win. That wasn't even a chance they had and it certainly wasn't a case of them taking it. An otherwise routine save deflecting out of the reach of the keeper is not 'taking your chances'.
If you do nothing to try to win a game then defending 90 minutes doesn't mean you deserve to win a match. For the first 30 minutes City didn't have a kick. united created chances in that time. Then they got a lucky goal. City passed the ball well until half time without doing anything with it. What happened in the first 30minutes happened for the duration of the second half. I'm not saying United bombarded the City goal for the 90 minutes but they had by far the majority of possession and created numerous chances with that possession.
City got a deflected goal and defended for the rest of the match. Therefore I see it that United's play tried winning the game, City didn't and so one deserved to win and one didn't based on possession, chances created and general attitude about the game.

Mr Alan

Thats the point i was getting at. I think Saha would've made more of a difference than Rooney yesterday. But with him being as injury prone as he is are we gonna be hearing sob stories all year about how injuries are killing ye? All the blame for your weak squad at the moment lies with Ferguson in my opinion. Perhaps with two strikers who like to come deep to pick up the ball like Rooney and Tevez, instead of spending huge money on talent for the future (Nani, Anderson) , he would have been better off spending 10 million on someone Anelka-ish.

Maybe that Fergie First to go thread should be ressurected?!

Serious question for the mods: why was that thread closed?

Mitch Connor

millersangel wrote:

Thats the point i was getting at. I think Saha would've made more of a difference than Rooney yesterday. But with him being as injury prone as he is are we gonna be hearing sob stories all year about how injuries are killing ye? All the blame for your weak squad at the moment lies with Ferguson in my opinion. Perhaps with two strikers who like to come deep to pick up the ball like Rooney and Tevez, instead of spending huge money on talent for the future (Nani, Anderson) , he would have been better off spending 10 million on someone Anelka-ish.

Maybe that Fergie First to go thread should be ressurected?!

Serious question for the mods: why was that thread closed?

but the squad isn't all that weak. How many teams would look string when missing the first choice right back, first choice winger, 2 first choice strikers, 2nd choice winger and the second choice keeper that was widely reported to be number 1 for this season.

Sure, the squad isn't looking great right now, but take that amount of depth out of any side and you'll see problems. I don't think liverpool would look all that hot without Finnan, Torres, Gerrard, Crouch and Pennant.

The Rooster

Tauren wrote:

but the squad isn't all that weak. How many teams would look string when missing the first choice right back, first choice winger, 2 first choice strikers, 2nd choice winger and the second choice keeper that was widely reported to be number 1 for this season.

Sure, the squad isn't looking great right now, but take that amount of depth out of any side and you'll see problems. I don't think liverpool would look all that hot without Finnan, Torres, Gerrard, Crouch and Pennant.

You picked players were Liverpool are well covered

Reina
Arbeloa-Carra-Agger-Riise
Benayoun-Maschernano-Alonso-Babel
Voronin-Kuyt

I'd be happy enough with that team! But take out centre half and keeper and we'd be stumped.

Mitch Connor

The Rooster wrote:

You picked players were Liverpool are well covered

Reina
Arbeloa-Carra-Agger-Riise
Benayoun-Maschernano-Alonso-Babel
Voronin-Kuyt

I'd be happy enough with that team! But take out centre half and keeper and we'd be stumped.

And in my opinion, the current united team, inclusive of the injuries, looks damn good on paper (like that liverpool side) but you'd not be as good as you are with your top players fit. You could possible worry about getting goals (i don't rate Kuyt or Crouch as world class) which is what is happening to United. In terms of general play, we are as good as we were last season, it is ONLY in front of goal we are lacking at the moment.

The results have been poor, but the performances have not.

My general point was simply that any squad is going to have problems when you take out so many important players at one time - it reduces the ability of th manager to make a game changing sub because there simply isn't one available.

Mr Alan

Neville and Rooney are the only first teamers you are missing imo.

rest is back up. Tevez and Rooney will be your first choice this year. Foster was never going to be first choice this year.

Neville being missing isn't that much of an issue cause your are fairly well covered in that position and not exactly leaking goals.

So only bad miss is Rooney.

Mitch Connor

millersangel wrote:

Neville and Rooney are the only first teamers you are missing imo.

rest is back up. Tevez and Rooney will be your first choice this year. Foster was never going to be first choice this year.

Neville being missing isn't that much of an issue cause your are fairly well covered in that position and not exactly leaking goals.

So only bad miss is Rooney.

Well football is a squad game, as rafa the rotater knows, so even missing squad players is a big miss.

You have said yourself Saha would have made a differnce yesterday.

And Ronaldo is certainly a first teamer.

Neville is a bigger miss going forward then going back. His runs down the right, and crossing, are a massive part of how united play - so him being out is always going to be an issue. He is also the captain, and you will always miss your captain.