Just how utterly self-loathing are some Irish people?

Karl Hungus

Yep, I've had a big rant on the subject before here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53645706&postcount=11

But reading the "Irish Patriotism" thread, one comment started me thinking about this phenominon again, and I've decided to start a thread about it. This just made me balk:

Exit wrote:

What's there to be proud of? It's just a place I was born in. I could've just as easily been born in England and would be automatically expected to believe England is the greatest country on Earth.

By that logic... Why love your family? Why would anyone love their family? They're just people you were born to, you could've just as easily been born to some other family. Why give any more affection to your parents than you would a stranger on the street?

Of course, I don't mean to pick on Exit here, there were plenty of other comments in that thread that made me shake my head in dismay.

But it really gets to me, when people here say that us Irish are such a "Begrudging" bunch, and that word gets thrown around ad nauseum, but what a majority of 'us Irish' are is self-loathing. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I can't read After Hours without running into 50 comments about how awful Ireland is, how the people suck, and how everything's crap and ****, and it's all worthless. That's what Irish people seem great at, elevating self-hatred and national masochism to an artform.

I won't go on about how in my personal experience mostly everyone who's so mouty about how much Ireland sucks has never been outside of the country, and doesn't realise just how good we have it here, because I'll just be repeating what I said earlier.

But you know another thing that bothers me?

The almost complete inability to see 'Irish' as a distinct ethnic group. Take that idea in the context of how we see the world, and it's ridiculous. We can look at Korean, and Japanese people, and see that they are a completely different ethnic group, they're a very distinct people and have a distinct culture.

Take for example the usual reaction on here when an American person would consider themselves Irish, and it boils down to a case of they weren't born here, they don't hold an Irish passport, therefor they're not Irish. But it never comes into it that they might be ethnically Irish? No, of course not! Because people here don't seem to like that idea. Something unique about the Irish as a people? No, certainly not, there's no such thing as Irish 'people' only people who hold an Irish passport. :rolleyes:

It's just amazing how many different cultures consider themselves unique and distinct, yet to many Irish people, the very thought is ridiculous, possibly even repulsive. I just don't get it.

So no, I'm certainly not the most nationalistic person out there. I've often talked about jumping ship to Japan, and living there. I don't know the national anthem. I didn't vote in the election because I thought it would've been futile. I think our capitol is a ****hole, and our government a shower of bastards. But I like Ireland. I think it's a pretty god damn good place on the whole, and you know what? I'm happy to be Irish. I'm happy to have been born here. It's like that comfy feeling of lying in your own bed. It's not just any bed, it's your bed, and nothing else is quite the same. Ireland just feels right, and it's not perfect, but I like it.

So yeah, there's my rant that went all fluffy in the end.

tallus

Seconded.

mike65

Karl, get a blog!

Mike.

Anto McC

Karl Hungus wrote:

I didn't vote in the election because I thought it would've been futile.

Now thats an typical Irish thing to do. Something thats sets us apart.

masseyno9

Agree with all except the bit about people in the states etc being 'irish.' It just seems to me (from personal experience) that they all seem to want to have an identity separate to their nationality. John is half polish half viatnamese, bethany's parents had irish grandparents so she's Irish...? First or second generation I will accept that they can call themselves Irish, but after that they're American/Canadian/whatever. They may have Irish roots, but they're not Irish. I'm not saying people shouldn't know their roots, but to go around saying you're Irish when clearly you're not is just pointless.

Something that just occurred to me; Aussies nearly all have Irish/English roots somewhere down the line, but for some reason they almost always call themselves Aussies. Is it because they have a national identity? or are more proud of their country, and so don't try to find a new nationality/race to belong to?

Back to the point of begrudging Irish, and people putting the country down. Its only when you travel that you see how good Ireland is.

AlmightyCushion

I couldn't agree with you more there Karl. While yes this country does have it's problems but on the whole it's still a great place. The thing that really pisses me off though is when people complain that even though we are one of the richest countries in the world, we have a completely shít public transport, health whatever.
These people seem to have forgotten that we've only had this money in the past twenty years. A country doesn't go from having a third class infrastructure to having an infrastructure that the whole world is jealous of. These things take time.
Yes big projects have gone over budget and I think that's something the government needs to work on but this happens in prettty much every country. The fact of the matter is that things wern't great but they are getting better.

Nehpets

What a stupid post.

Karl Hungus wrote:

By that logic... Why love your family? Why would anyone love their family? They're just people you were born to, you could've just as easily been born to some other family. Why give any more affection to your parents than you would a stranger on the street?

People (but not everyone) loves their family because they were raised by them and cared by them. Why do you think adopted children love the people that adopted them? You don't love your family because they're our family (Well, if you do, that's stupid).

EDIT: This is just going to be an arguement between people who love Ireland, people who don't care where they were born and people who hate Ireland.

Karl Hungus

masseyno9 wrote:

Agree with all except the bit about people in the states etc being 'irish.' It just seems to me (from personal experience) that they all seem to want to have an identity separate to their nationality. John is half polish half viatnamese, bethany's parents had irish grandparents so she's Irish...? First or second generation I will accept that they can call themselves Irish, but after that they're American/Canadian/whatever. They may have Irish roots, but they're not Irish. I'm not saying people shouldn't know their roots, but to go around saying you're Irish when clearly you're not is just pointless.

You see, Asian people in America don't stop being ethnically Asian (Outside of intermarrying with other ethnicities) after first or second generation. I don't believe ethnicity is something you lose over time, so I agree someone with a single Irish grandparent calling themselves Irish is a bit of a stretch, but someone coming from a 100% ethnically Irish background, reguardless of how many generations they've been there, I think that's a different story altogether.

This is an interesting discussion.

mike65

So blood over culture? Very German.

Mike.

Average-Ro

You know, I used to be very proud of being Irish, and I still am in a way, but something happened a while ago....

I was coming home from a pub (not drinking at all, photographing a band for a college project) and I walked past this group congested in the street. They were all looking up, so naturally my neck creaked to match theirs. There was a man standing on a window ledge a few stories up about to jump. He's was crying, really upset, and his friends were on the ground below trying to coax him down, telling him he had lots to live for etc.

Anyway, I stuck around; and true to the situation, the crowd kept getting bigger and bigger. A good few people kept coming up to me asking if I knew what was going on. They all sounded really worried. Here's the kicker, all the people who asked me were foreign. I heard Spanish, Polish, French and American accents. ANY Irish accents I heard that night (other than the Jumper's friends) were laughing their heads of at the situation and shouting at him to jump! One guy even said "Will ya jump already! I can't stand around here all night". Eventually he was coaxed down by a friend when the fire department and the Gardaí showed up.

But it was this reaction from the Irish voices that disturbed me. With all the foreigners around at that moment in time, I was feeling very embarressed to be Irish, just because I was being associated with those eejits. I can understand that there are people like this all over the world, but EVERY Irish voice I heard that night were singing the same tune, and it wasn't pretty.

Anyone else find themselves in a situation where the Irish showed this side of themselves?

azezil

*tears of patriotic joy fill mine eyes and booties*

masseyno9

Asian people don't stop being ethnically Asian, but they stop clinging to the 'Asian' tag. Most of those that i've met call themselves American, with japanese/korean roots. Met a good few americans travelling this summer, and most of them say they're american, until i said i was irish, then they say "oh yeah I'm irish....well my moms grandpa was from skibbereen." That doesn't make them Irish. That makes their great grandad Irish.

They can be of Irish/japanese/Korean/whatever descent, but they aren't Irish. Agree with you on the 100% ethnic thing though, but that generally doesn't last more than a generation or 2. I think we have to draw a line between being ethnically Irish, and having 'Irish' as your nationality.

Anyone got any idea why Aussies never seem to do the same "oh I'm Irish" thing? posted it already, but its annoying me now!

Red Hand

masseyno9 wrote:

Anyone got any idea why Aussies never seem to do the same "oh I'm Irish" thing? posted it already, but its annoying me now!

"Coz its the best bloody country in the world, thats why!":p

arac

I agree with the orginal poster here...Ireland has an awful lot wrong with it, but its like all the flaws (some albeit larger than others) some how in a wierd way make it special...so many things about this little country of ours are so crap but I still can't think of anywhere else that I would rather live.....

Pigman II

I personally I agree with Exit. Also just because you don't love a country doesn't automatically mean you hate it.

From a social & economic you it's good luck to be born here but that's all it is. If you won the national lottery it's only right that you'd be glad you won it - but that doesn't mean you should be grateful to the people who organised the competition (or the other million mugs who's €4's contributed to your windfall).

Hogmeister B

AlmightyCushion wrote:

The thing that really pisses me off though is when people complain that even though we are one of the richest countries in the world, we have a completely shít public transport, health whatever.
These people seem to have forgotten that we've only had this money in the past twenty years. A country doesn't go from having a third class infrastructure to having an infrastructure that the whole world is jealous of. These things take time.

Spain, similarly to Ireland, has emerged in the last couple of decades from economic desolation into better times. They have ever-expanding- and extremely cheap and well-designed- metros in their major cities (including Bilbao and Palma de Majorca) as well as high-speed rail lines. Seems to me like a country can indeed "go from having a third class infrastructure to having an infrastructure that the whole world is jealous of" within a decade or two.

Karl Hungus

masseyno9 wrote:

Asian people don't stop being ethnically Asian, but they stop clinging to the 'Asian' tag. Most of those that i've met call themselves American, with japanese/korean roots. Met a good few americans travelling this summer, and most of them say they're american, until i said i was irish, then they say "oh yeah I'm irish....well my moms grandpa was from skibbereen." That doesn't make them Irish. That makes their great grandad Irish.

They can be of Irish/japanese/Korean/whatever descent, but they aren't Irish. Agree with you on the 100% ethnic thing though, but that generally doesn't last more than a generation or 2. I think we have to draw a line between being ethnically Irish, and having 'Irish' as your nationality.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying that anyone who's had one Irish grandparent should have any right to claim they're Irish, don't get me wrong there, because that's not what I'm saying. I'm just using it as an example that a lot of people simply don't recognise the idea of Irish ethnicity.

Earthhorse

Well, people are hardly going to complaing about a country they don't live in. I mean, I'm not going to complain about the smog in Brazil, or the NHS, or the attitudue of French people because I'm not exposed to it every day. People are just venting steam about the place they live in. I guarantee you that if you went to an Anglo-centric bulletin board they'd be giving about about chavs and what have you. It's not something peculiar to Ireland or the Irish.

Exit

Karl Hungus wrote:

By that logic... Why love your family? Why would anyone love their family? They're just people you were born to, you could've just as easily been born to some other family. Why give any more affection to your parents than you would a stranger on the street?

As another poster already said... You love your family because that group of people are the people who have brought you up, provided for you and supported you through your life. And yes, I could've just as easily been born to another family, and I would have loved them just as much as the family that I was born into. That's my point.

Ireland does have it's own unique culture, and there are things that I really like and that make me nostalgic when I'm away, but that's not something unique to Ireland. That doesn't make Ireland a great country and somewhere to be proud of. If I had been born in England, then those memories would have been English memories. And as I said in the quoted post, I would have been expected to believe that England is a great country and somewhere to be proud of.

Thinking that one country is better than another based on the fact that you were born there is silly. It all depends on your point of view and experiences in the world. I had no problems with Ireland growing up, but then I spent 2+ years living in Canada, and I realised how much better things were done over there, how much cleaner it was and how much more polite the people were. That's just my opinion and I don't expect others to agree with me, and likewise I'm not trying to force my opinions on anybody else. I have experienced two different ways of life, and I prefer one over the other. That's all.

I don't think many people would consider their town or city to be the greatest place in the world, and nobody feels obligated to have pride for it. So, why do the same for your country?

User45701

Well Karl, the guy you quoted does have a point, you could if you where born in the right part of america and you could have allowed yourself to be condisioned into red neck-ness , i known its not a word but im saying that he makes a excellent point but tbh it depends on one thing, whats makes you you? is it some sort of soul? whereever you where born you would still be very simmilar? or maybe its genetic? so if you had the exact same genes but lived in Berlin would you still be the same person?

Or does none of that matter? maybe the person you ar is decided 100% by your upbringing and your interations with others

.Hmmm ive kinda rambled.

anyway i actually dont understand the point of this topic, there are only two different types of people , race, sexual orintation and nationality should not matter

Orange69

Exit wrote:

Thinking that one country is better than another based on the fact that you were born there is silly. It all depends on your point of view and experiences in the world. I had no problems with Ireland growing up, but then I spent 2+ years living in Canada, and I realised how much better things were done over there, how much cleaner it was and how much more polite the people were. That's just my opinion and I don't expect others to agree with me, and likewise I'm not trying to force my opinions on anybody else. I have experienced two different ways of life, and I prefer one over the other. That's all.

I have had a pretty similar experience, spent 2 years in canada and 6 months in the US.. People don't realize how badly managed and disorganized ireland really is.. You need to get out there and compare things for yourself..

Its nothing to do with self loathing or pride, its a simple matter of comparing the quality of life in a number of different countries..

Black Swan

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

"Coz its the best bloody country in the world, thats why!":p

OZ? Could it be all those shrimp they put on the Barbie?

Oh, this is a serious thread on AH? OK, I was born Galway, my Da was born Irish, and my Gran (on Da's side) claims that we descend from the original 14 families (if you believe in one of the Galway origin myths). But my Mum was born USA and both her parents were French and immigrated to USA before having her. I have an Irish passport. I have family on both sides of the pond, and have spent time growing up here and there. For the past 2 years I've been overseas doing a gig and now a drama student at a major university. So by the implications of some posters on this thread, my claim to being Irish is questionable? If so, what qualifies them to sit in judgement on me (or anyone)?

chump

YAWNNNNNNNNN


The irony of moaning about moaners.

I agree with many of your sentiments.
ie. Ireland is not a bad place.

I disagree with the fact you didn't vote and think your sentiment on the Dublin city is largely false - it's a grand city.

There are plenty of justifiable reasons for people to moan about Ireland, but I'd prefer to see them moan about one reason at a time outlining the shortcomings and suggesting how they could be improved.

This to a large extent is what other forums on boards do - you tend to get the generic moan about everything posts on AfterHours because it's mainly full of BIG EEJITS

Red Hand

Have to say, I'm one of the ones that moans about Ireland every so often, Karl. Usually about the weather, and shoddy planning.;)


Oh, we're not the only ones that moan btw. I know a few Finns that live here, and they think Irish grumble ALOT LESS than Finns in Finland. Which is funny, cause Finland is one of those countries that is portrayed (when compared to the US/UK/Ireland) as "working well"-good public transport, seasons, health care, childcare etc.

To me, there are alot of parallels between religions and nationalities...Nationality comes into play when a government wants tax off of you. Isn't that how all nations start?


Blue_Lagoon, stop causing difficulties!:p

Dr_Teeth

A country, any country, is always going to be on a journey to more closely match the will of its people. The real question is, are we proud of ourselves? Ireland is just this thing we're working on together.

challengemaster

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

Have to say, I'm one of the ones that moans about Ireland every so often, Karl. Usually about the weather, and shoddy planning.;)

well, fair enough.. I mean its not sensational at all.. the weather can be disgraceful (especially as seen this summer with regards to rainfall), and some plans for building seem to have no planning what so ever behind it. heck, if you look at the county council groups in most areas down the country.. I'll use moate for an example because I'm rather familiar with it. The county council (so it seems, anyway) will go, randomly pick a spot on the town map, decide to dig a hole, look down it for 6hrs with lads. send a camera down (because they like to mess with the cam tbh imo) the next day for 6 more hours. spend another day looking into this hole, then, after looking down a hole for 3 days, fill it back up (poorly) leaving the roads in shíte. This is then repeated regularly in the year... so yes, there are some things that should be complained about, questioned, etc.. because it's certainly not up to scratch with certain things.. but moaning about the weather wont change it...

Oh, we're not the only ones that moan btw. I know a few Finns that live here, and they think Irish grumble ALOT LESS than Finns in Finland. Which is funny, cause Finland is one of those countries that is portrayed (when compared to the US/UK/Ireland) as "working well"-good public transport, seasons, health care, childcare etc.

To me, there are alot of parallels between religions and nationalities...Nationality comes into play when a government wants tax off of you. Isn't that how all nations start?

well I guess everyone wants their 'perfect' country in their mind.. but since when do people know jack shít about what they really want/need. and there will almost certainly be something to always complain about.. nothing will ever suit 100% of people, all the time.. I guess we're just lucky we have some sort of say in what does go on, though...

Blue_Lagoon, stop causing difficulties!:p

I don't think she can help it.. she always makes things hard

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

slipss

I couldn't agree with you more Karl, brilliant thread, brilliant post. I was actually talking about this a few weeks ago with an Israeli friend I have and she put forward the idea that the attitude is something similar to the old stereotype of the self-hating Jew. She compared the phenomenom to the way that if you call an insecure person stupid or fat or ugly often enough that they start to believe it and given the histories of the two peoples, Jews and Irish, ones of oppresion and ridicule to a certain extent, that this could be responsible for the slelf derogatory attitude of some people in regards to thier own cultures or ethnicity. Her husband is from South Africa and he said that it was also a common enough attitude amongst some of the poorer blacks and the coloureds over there. I'm not sure if I agree with her or not but it's an interesting theory, and it seems to match up that usually the people, that I know in anyway, with this attitude do tend to be quite insecure, anyone have any thoughts on it?

slipss

Anto McC wrote:

Now thats an typical Irish thing to do. Something thats sets us apart.

I wouldn't agree with that, I don't know where this presumption that Irish people don't vote came from, didn't we have something like a 78% voter turnout for the election just gone, I think England had roughly a 29% turnout for thier last election, I don't know about the rest of the world, anyone know if the figures are available somewhere? (I'm not sure on those percentages but I believe they are approximate.)

Black Swan

challengemaster wrote:

I don't think she can help it.. she always makes things hard

Hey! Why do I sense a double meaning? Oh, did you wear your gas mask in Bejing? At least Irish air is better, even if it's always wet (just don't talk about the water in Galway!).

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

Blue_Lagoon stop causing difficulties!

It's part of my job description to cause you lads difficulties! Where's my shrimp? Just cause my name isn't Barbie is no excuse to be left out!

Sam Vimes

karl, its nothing to do with hating ireland or anything to do with ireland at all tbh. i don't believe in the concept of patriotism.

some quotes:


“Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.” GB Shaw

“Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.” Oscar Wilde

“Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy” GB Shaw again


loving your family is different to patriotism. people love their families because they were raised together and lived together. i never lived with roy keane, have never met roy keane, have no connection whatsoever to roy keane, yet i'm supposed to feel pride in this stranger's achievements for some reason because 'patriots' tell me i should. it makes no sense.

why can't i feel pride in ryan gigg's achievements? i'm pretty sure wales is closer to me than cork is so ryan giggs has very slightly more connection to me than roy keane does

a patriot should fight for his country. but what if the leader of your country is kim jong il or saddam hussein or heaven's forbid, george bush? why the f*ck should i throw myself in front of a bullet for these twats? if i'm going to fight for a stranger, i'll fight for them because they're right, not because they're from my country.

should a patriot criticise a german who defected in 1940 and fought on the english side? what he did was morally right but patriotically wrong

i feel pride in my achievements and those of my family. i don't want to take any of the credit for roy keane's footballing ability any more than i want to take the blame for michelle smith's drug taking. i've never met them and because i'm not a patriot, i don't feel the need to associate myself with them

Dyr

Commander Vimes wrote:

karl, its nothing to do with hating ireland or anything to do with ireland at all tbh. i don't believe in the concept of patriotism.

some quotes:


“Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.” GB Shaw

“Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.” Oscar Wilde

“Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy” GB Shaw again

Yeah but you have to bear in mind that ould GB was full of sh** most of the time. Patriotism is'nt about believing that your country is superior to all others its about believing that is the most important country in your life.

Sam Vimes

Bambi wrote:

Yeah but you have to bear in mind that ould GB was full of sh** most of the time. Patriotism is'nt about believing that your country is superior to all others its about believing that is the most important country in your life.

and this continent is the most important continent in my life and this world is the most important world in my life etc etc etc. that doesn't mean i should support it whether its right or wrong. i support someone because they're right, not because they're from the same country as me

Sam Vimes

here's a perfect example of the flawed logic of patriotism from DaveMcG's sig.

"Which is more likely: That the whole natural order is suspended? Or that a Jewish minx should tell a lie?"
-David Hume (on the virgin birth)

exactly the same logic could be extended to all the miracles jesus supposedly did and his claim to be the son of god and basically the whole religion but he doesn't do that because he's rubbishing someone else's beliefs. his beliefs are different and the only reason they're different is they're his

Hydroquinone

Karl Hungus wrote:

You see, Asian people in America don't stop being ethnically Asian (Outside of intermarrying with other ethnicities) after first or second generation.

That's not equivalent, though is it? Nationality and ethnicity are two entirely different ball games.

Asia is a massive continent and comprises many different nationalities. If an Indian marries a person from Singapore in America and they have a child, then the parents are both etnnically Asian, the kid is ethnically Asian, but is the kid a Indian-Singaporean American or an Asian American?
Dunno

fly_agaric

AlmightyCushion wrote:

The thing that really pisses me off though is when people complain that even though we are one of the richest countries in the world, we have a completely shít public transport, health whatever.
These people seem to have forgotten that we've only had this money in the past twenty years. A country doesn't go from having a third class infrastructure to having an infrastructure that the whole world is jealous of. These things take time.

sigh...Japan and Germany were bombed to ash and rebuilt in "20 years". I know they were big industrial powers before they embarked on insane militaristic "lebensraum"/empire-building policies and they had major help from the US in rebuilding but this is somewhat counterbalanced by the fact that a) they are an awful lot bigger than we are and b) in addition to our economic boom in the past decade we have had alot of monetary and other help from the EU/EC/EEC over our "20 years".
Our government should have done better at this stuff than it has given its resourses. Particularly IMO over that past decade or so (2000-now).

Perhaps low expectations of the "cute-hoors" we elect to lead us is another Irish failing?

Orange69

fly_agaric wrote:

sigh...Japan and Germany were bombed to ash and rebuilt in "20 years". I know they were big industrial powers before they embarked on insane militaristic "lebensraum"/empire-building policies and they had major help from the US in rebuilding but this is somewhat counterbalanced by the fact that a) they are an awful lot bigger than we are and b) in addition to our economic boom in the past decade we have had alot of monetary and other help from the EU/EC/EEC over our "20 years".
Our government should have done better at this stuff than it has given its resourses. Particularly IMO over that past decade or so (2000-now).

Perhaps low expectations of the "cute-hoors" we elect to lead us is another Irish failing?

I agree, the current/past government have a lot to answer for.. Whats worse is that the opposition parties seem to be just as incompetent..

The entire power system in Ireland is rotten to the core.. Personally i wouldn't trust Bertie Ahearn & co to run a youth disco.. let alone a country.....

DublinDilbert

Orange69 wrote:

I have had a pretty similar experience, spent 2 years in canada and 6 months in the US.. People don't realize how badly managed and disorganized ireland really is.. You need to get out there and compare things for yourself..

..

Agree 100% with the above spent 3 years in canada and i can see why people are so proud to be a canadian... the place is very well organised, very well run and the poeple there take huge pride in it....

In ireland things are 1/2 done, laws are created but not enforced ect... in places like canada its black and white, plain and simple... what amazed me when i first went to canada was how proud people were to work for the local city / government they had a real pride in it...

What i have learned since i came back to Ireland, is that Ireland is small and full of vested interests, and it affects everyones lives.... our health system is 3rd world, the GPs don't want to do a thing about it as they are onto a great tax free winner, €60 / visit to say "I think u need to go home and rest" or "its probably a virus"....

K-9

Commander Vimes wrote:

loving your family is different to patriotism. people love their families because they were raised together and lived together. i never lived with roy keane, have never met roy keane, have no connection whatsoever to roy keane, yet i'm supposed to feel pride in this stranger's achievements for some reason because 'patriots' tell me i should. it makes no sense.

should a patriot criticise a german who defected in 1940 and fought on the english side? what he did was morally right but patriotically wrong

Many would disagree with you on Keane, going back to Saipan and all that, but thats another thread! Some patriots would say you should feel no pride in his achievements. There's a bandwagon element to Keane, even from so called "patriot" Celtic supporters.

Other than that, you make good points on patriotism.

There are many points to bring up about Ireland and where we are going wrong. FF/Bertie being the easy one to blame for everything.

I agree with many of those points, however if this was 20 years ago, the majority of us wouldn't be here, most of us would be in America/England etc. moaning about Ireland from afar.

The fact that most of us are here moaning about Ireland and alot of us by choice are moaning from afar, says alot.

Are there problems to be solved, yes. Have a lot of problems been solved, yes.

Bertie and his cronies have been in power for 17/20 years. Has everything they have done been right, no. But they must have done something right or most of us wouldn't be in Ireland posting this stuff!

Are there less problems now than 20 years, yes. Will there be in 20 years time?

SimpleSam06

Karl Hungus wrote:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I can't read After Hours without running into 50 comments about how awful Ireland is, how the people suck, and how everything's crap and ****, and it's all worthless.

What makes you think the posters are Irish? I am continually surprised by both the number and vociferousness of non-Irish posters I encounter on boards, and I'll tell you what, some of them make a pastime out of whining about how crap Ireland is. If its so bad, go home, simple as.

I'm proud of this country, and its people, both its rich Celtic heritage and its recovery from an extraordinarily long period of occupation. We also have a long history of innovators, scientists, mathemeticians, and world-beating artists and musicians. We are also well known as a friendly outgoing race, when we could be forgiven for sealing the borders and never allowing anyone in ever again, given our history.

For a little place like Ireland, we have made breathtaking achievements. As they say, if the Irish hadn't invented whiskey, they would have conquered the world!

Thats not patriotism, by the way (which is knuckle dragging tribal drum bashing on a national level), its the simple truth.

Mr. CooL ICE

I totally agree with Karl. IMO, the country has so many flaws that I find it hilarious. The general attitude of the people torwards everything (e.g. "ah sure it'll be grand" while in a burning building) might be undesirable, but as much as I would try to disassociate myself with this attitude, it will always surface somehow. So IMO, trying to improve oneself's attitude is quite pointless, cos at the end of the day, it'll be grand

I am atheist. I am pro-abortion. I am (under restricted circumstances) pro-death penalty. I hate trad music. I have never been to a céilí. I got a C3 in ordinary level Irish when i did the LC. I think Roy Keane is a twat. I don't like U2. I don't know the national anthem. I think Irish should be made optional, not mandatory in secondary school. I buy from online shops instead of supporting the national economy. None of these are typical irish stances, but I'm still proud of where I come from.

Another thing: craic. You will not have any craic in any other country unless you are with other irish people. You will have fun, randomness, craziness, etc, but you will never have craic. Its unexplainable, but disassociate yourself from your heritage as much as you want, but you will always miss the craic. excuse the corniness...

Raekwon

masseyno9 wrote:

Agree with all except the bit about people in the states etc being 'irish.' It just seems to me (from personal experience) that they all seem to want to have an identity separate to their nationality. John is half polish half viatnamese, bethany's parents had irish grandparents so she's Irish...? First or second generation I will accept that they can call themselves Irish, but after that they're American/Canadian/whatever. They may have Irish roots, but they're not Irish. I'm not saying people shouldn't know their roots, but to go around saying you're Irish when clearly you're not is just pointless.

Something that just occurred to me; Aussies nearly all have Irish/English roots somewhere down the line, but for some reason they almost always call themselves Aussies. Is it because they have a national identity? or are more proud of their country, and so don't try to find a new nationality/race to belong to?

Good to see that there is somebody here that is on my wavelength I whole-heartily agreed with what you have said, infact I was debating this with an American poster on another thread called Related to Americans. Unfortunately the debate ended in a one-sided barrage of insults from the American, but I did raise nearly the exact same arguments that you did.

challengemaster

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Hey! Why do I sense a double meaning? Oh, did you wear your gas mask in Bejing? At least Irish air is better, even if it's always wet (just don't talk about the water in Galway!).

well... there's always other ways to take it..

and no, I didnt! it's rather fine here actually.. apart from the poor visibility due to the mist/fog, its quite nice. clean enough air.. as for it being wet.. well.. there's more things in Ireland wet than the air..

It's part of my job description to cause you lads difficulties! Where's my shrimp? Just cause my name isn't Barbie is no excuse to be left out!

shrimp cócktails?

I do not see my Irishness as being the defining characteristic that makes me who I am. People place too much importance in the country they're born. It is understandable though. If you feel a need to identify and associate yourself with something external, an easy place to start is with where you were born .

Any sense of association or solidarity I have is with Irish society rather than the Irish state. While I may owe something to society, I owe nothing to the state. I'm pretty sure I'd be writing the same thing if I was from any other country. Who benefits most from identities that stop at a state borders?

Unthinking patriotism does far more harm than good. If you've got a few minutes look at:

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Goldman/Writings/Anarchism/patriotism.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W27wBf7Jw34 - might involve swearing, so possibly NSFW

We are all one

pid()

I agree with your initial post Karl. I love it here, but I have lost faith in the Irish people. We wouldn't be Irish if we didn't complain. The old Irish generation had a lot to put up with. I was born in the early 80's but didn't really experience the crap economy back then because I was too young to. The 90's were booming, and the 00's are going fine too. The one thing I will give out about is how racist and close minded people in Ireland are. I only noticed this when I went traveling and experienced other countries and cultures. The crap people go through, and how they cope with it is what builds character. I don't think we'll ever learn to mix with "foreigners" for a long long time. Have a look at how many skangers you walk past over the next few days and ask yourself: Do they have any respect for anyone or anything? Can you really see them actually stopping to help someone in the street, give someone proper directions? They are the new generation, and they're scum. Their population is increasing like rabbits and soon we'll be over run by them. This makes me want to jump ship but why should I? **** them, this is my country.

r3nu4l

Average-Ro wrote:

...but EVERY Irish voice I heard that night were singing the same tune, and it wasn't pretty.

Well I'm assuming you are Irish and your voice wasn't amongst those goading the man to jump? So not EVERY Irish voice was carrying on like this then. What about voices you didn't hear? How many of those were Irish? How many Irish people were there silently thinking how awful it was or were out of your earshot? There's idiots everywhere, you saw a few that night.

I saw a mans' body being fished out of the liffey one night by Dublin Fire Brigade at about 3 am. There was a huge crowd around as a fireman hung off a ladder and tried to fish the body out with a pole. One eejit started jeering the fireman because it took him about 6 attempts to get the guy in. Most of the crowd was silent until then and began shouting at the moron telling him to shut the f**k up and show some respect!

Anyway, I've travelled a lot and seen a lot of different cultures in action and I love Ireland. Not through the rosy eyes of the emigrant (I have emigrated) either. I return to Ireland every 8-10 weeks so I'm not out of touch. I just love the country I was born in and miss not living there. Fair play to Karl for his rant/post.

+1

Ekancone

Karl Hungus wrote:

Yep, I've had a big rant on the subject before here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53645706&postcount=11

But reading the "Irish Patriotism" thread, one comment started me thinking about this phenominon again, and I've decided to start a thread about it. This just made me balk:



By that logic... Why love your family? Why would anyone love their family? They're just people you were born to, you could've just as easily been born to some other family. Why give any more affection to your parents than you would a stranger on the street?

Of course, I don't mean to pick on Exit here, there were plenty of other comments in that thread that made me shake my head in dismay.

But it really gets to me, when people here say that us Irish are such a "Begrudging" bunch, and that word gets thrown around ad nauseum, but what a majority of 'us Irish' are is self-loathing. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I can't read After Hours without running into 50 comments about how awful Ireland is, how the people suck, and how everything's crap and ****, and it's all worthless. That's what Irish people seem great at, elevating self-hatred and national masochism to an artform.

I won't go on about how in my personal experience mostly everyone who's so mouty about how much Ireland sucks has never been outside of the country, and doesn't realise just how good we have it here, because I'll just be repeating what I said earlier.

But you know another thing that bothers me?

The almost complete inability to see 'Irish' as a distinct ethnic group. Take that idea in the context of how we see the world, and it's ridiculous. We can look at Korean, and Japanese people, and see that they are a completely different ethnic group, they're a very distinct people and have a distinct culture.

Take for example the usual reaction on here when an American person would consider themselves Irish, and it boils down to a case of they weren't born here, they don't hold an Irish passport, therefor they're not Irish. But it never comes into it that they might be ethnically Irish? No, of course not! Because people here don't seem to like that idea. Something unique about the Irish as a people? No, certainly not, there's no such thing as Irish 'people' only people who hold an Irish passport. :rolleyes:

It's just amazing how many different cultures consider themselves unique and distinct, yet to many Irish people, the very thought is ridiculous, possibly even repulsive. I just don't get it.

So no, I'm certainly not the most nationalistic person out there. I've often talked about jumping ship to Japan, and living there. I don't know the national anthem. I didn't vote in the election because I thought it would've been futile. I think our capitol is a ****hole, and our government a shower of bastards. But I like Ireland. I think it's a pretty god damn good place on the whole, and you know what? I'm happy to be Irish. I'm happy to have been born here. It's like that comfy feeling of lying in your own bed. It's not just any bed, it's your bed, and nothing else is quite the same. Ireland just feels right, and it's not perfect, but I like it.

So yeah, there's my rant that went all fluffy in the end.

Nationalist hyperbole. It belongs between the years 1848-1945, the world is moving on. I suggest you do too.

r3nu4l

daithifleming wrote:

Nationalist hyperbole. It belongs between the years 1848-1945, the world is moving on. I suggest you do too.

A quick quip with little substance. Do you work for Independant News and Media?

big b

I must be reading the wrong threads.
Whilst I often read posts decrying poor services/infrastrucure & dodgy politicians, pretty much all the posts I read concerning the Irish people are of the "sure, aren't we great and everyone loves us" variety.
Posts on the economy are positive, posts on landscapes and quality of life ditto.
I really don't see the amount of self-loathing alluded to.

Ekancone

r3nu4l wrote:

A quick quip with little substance. Do you work for Independant News and Media?

Nationalism is an idea, nothing more. Do we have some divine right/commitment to this country/lump of rock in the sea? I hate this nationalist bull****, all it does is incite hatred and violence.

r3nu4l

big b wrote:

...pretty much all the posts I read concerning the Irish people are of the "sure, aren't we great and everyone loves us" variety.
Posts on the economy are positive, posts on landscapes and quality of life ditto.
I really don't see the amount of self-loathing alluded to.

From a recent thread on the Motors forum...

This new car sh*t is sheer madness, the Irish only see the badge and the numberplate. And the Lexus would beat the crap out of VW for badge appeal!!

Seems like self-loathing to me and is a typical example of the 'only the Irish...' mentality that is prevalent in Ireland.

@Daithi - I never claimed we have a right to this 'lump of rock in the sea' but I still love Ireland.