Just how utterly self-loathing are some Irish people?

Plissken1

Anto McC wrote:

Now thats an typical Irish thing to do. Something thats sets us apart.

Most people voted for Bertie, but only to try and hold onto what they have. Tom Wolfe called it the "ME ME" generation, the English copied it from America in the 1980's, and we adopted it from the English in the 1990's (as we do everything, strange seeing as we are supposed to dislike them). Ireland is still a nice place to live, but you cannot help but notice how many greedy cowboys there are on the island. One thing I find, is that you can pay through the nose for a service and still get crap !.

layke

Quite honestly I see patriotism and realism on opposite ends of the pole.

It's the most abused word out there, one only has to look towards the mighty US, 'patriot' this 'patriot' that. I can guarentee if they brought in a no firearm law all of the hicks wouldn't respect the new legislation of their government, throw up two finger salute and carry on being armed. Where's the Patriotism to their great country gone there?

To ask what are you patriotic towards? Are you patriotic to Ireland? The county your born in? Loyalists/Unionists consider themselves patriotic to the crown even though the crown says Westminster is the government and they say love your neighbouring Catholics. "No sure went don't want to do that" for [insert reason here].

In other words Patriotism only exists to peoples own set rules and can be twisted anyway you like.

Now national pride (as already said) is one thing. Personally speaking I am of the same mindset as LordChessington well more specificly his 2nd paragrah.
Except the difference being Ireland has changed for the worse imo, it's a ME-Me culture and I hate it but welcome to the developed world there's nowt I can do about it.

Morlar

I agree with the OP too - was thinking something along those lines the other day too. I think there is an element of an inferiority complex going on here too - seemingly more so amongst Irish people who have never lived/worked in other countries or travelled much. imo.

Collie D

+1 for the OP, apart from the ****hole capital reference

I think a lot of the moaners on here forget that they are all working and had a free third level education and have taken it for granted. Not something we all had a few years ago unless you were middle class.

thebman

r3nu4l wrote:

From a recent thread on the Motors forum...

Seems like self-loathing to me and is a typical example of the 'only the Irish...' mentality that is prevalent in Ireland.

@Daithi - I never claimed we have a right to this 'lump of rock in the sea' but I still love Ireland.

I'd go with logic. Most people only do see the badge. The only real problem with this statement is the use of the word Irish instead of people because most people everywhere are this stupid. The Irish aren't special, we just notice it more here because we live here.

Its the same everywhere else too, you'll find people complaining about SUV drivers etc ...

Karl Hungus

Ok, haven't bothered reading much of the responses in depth (Hey, I rarely visit After Hours, so shoot me!) but I get the feeling that some people here aren't quite on the same page as I am with reguards to patiotism, so I think I'd probably like to clear some of that up.

As I've said, I'm not a person who knows the national anthem, I didn't vote in the election, I don't listen to traditional music, I don't even speak Irish!

But to me, those are just some unimportant details. It's not about arbitrary pride in things that just happen to be Irish. It's about the place where you grew up holding a special place in your heart. It's the same reason why your home isn't just a house like any other, it's your home, and that's something special. It's like that with Ireland (Or Galway to be specific), it feels homely, it feels special to me.

That's why I can't get behind the idea of Ireland being nothing special, being just a place like any other. Yeah, if I was born somewhere else, I'm sure I'd grow up with that place becoming a part of me, and having a special place in my heart.

I think a bit more pride (A sense of home) would do this nation a hell of a lot of good.

In reguards to whoever said they only heard Irish voices egging someone on in a suicide attempt, well that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about! Do you think would've done that if they had a better sense of kinship? Do you think people would've done it if they cared about themselves reflecting badly on the country? I think they'd even treat people better if they had more of a sense of national pride. You wouldn't treat your home like a dump, and you wouldn't treat a guest in your home like crap either.

Likewise, we're one of the filthiest countries out there. I think if people didn't think so poorly of the place, if they had more pride in the place, if they thought it was their home instead of just some rock, they wouldn't treat it like a garbage dump. I think Japan was easily the cleanest place I've ever been to, and they're a very nationalistic people.

Honestly, I think a lot of problems Ireland faces is because a lot of Irish people have 0% repsect for the country, or each other.

Ekancone

Karl Hungus wrote:

Ok, haven't bothered reading much of the responses in depth (Hey, I rarely visit After Hours, so shoot me!) but I get the feeling that some people here aren't quite on the same page as I am with reguards to patiotism, so I think I'd probably like to clear some of that up.

As I've said, I'm not a person who knows the national anthem, I didn't vote in the election, I don't listen to traditional music, I don't even speak Irish!

But to me, those are just some unimportant details. It's not about arbitrary pride in things that just happen to be Irish. It's about the place where you grew up holding a special place in your heart. It's the same reason why your home isn't just a house like any other, it's your home, and that's something special. It's like that with Ireland (Or Galway to be specific), it feels homely, it feels special to me.

That's why I can't get behind the idea of Ireland being nothing special, being just a place like any other. Yeah, if I was born somewhere else, I'm sure I'd grow up with that place becoming a part of me, and having a special place in my heart.

I think a bit more pride (A sense of home) would do this nation a hell of a lot of good.

In reguards to whoever said they only heard Irish voices egging someone on in a suicide attempt, well that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about! Do you think would've done that if they had a better sense of kinship? Do you think people would've done it if they cared about themselves reflecting badly on the country? I think they'd even treat people better if they had more of a sense of national pride. You wouldn't treat your home like a dump, and you wouldn't treat a guest in your home like crap either.

Likewise, we're one of the filthiest countries out there. I think if people didn't think so poorly of the place, if they had more pride in the place, if they thought it was their home instead of just some rock, they wouldn't treat it like a garbage dump. I think Japan was easily the cleanest place I've ever been to, and they're a very nationalistic people.

Honestly, I think a lot of problems Ireland faces is because a lot of Irish people have 0% repsect for the country, or each other.

...and they are considered (in Asia) to be rascist, sexist and have a superiority complex. Sounds like nationalists to me!

Karl Hungus

http://dennisjudd.com/albums/cats/orly.jpg

r3nu4l

brim4brim wrote:

The only real problem with this statement is the use of the word Irish instead of people because most people everywhere are this stupid. The Irish aren't special, we just notice it more here because we live here.

That's my point, in Ireland we constantly refer to 'us Irish, worst drivers, haven't a clue..ony the Irish could litter the country like that...we Irish are useless at..."

We constantly moan about what a terrible people we are! I've been living in England 3 years and I've yet to hear English people compain, "Oh us English, we're such a nation of thugs and hooligans, look at us when we are abroad...". You just don't hear that level of self loathing anywhere else I've been to. This despite the fact that England has as many (if not more) problems than Ireland. At least they can recognise that there problems are specific to a particular type or group of people and not the nation as a whole!

Taking the example of the guy standing on the ledge and a bunch of scumbags jeering him to jump...had that happened while a bunch of elderly ladies were returning home from mass I can assure you the reaction of "the Irish" would have been different. There would have been a lot of "Oh Jesus, Mary and Joseph, Lord bless us and protect us, come down from there now son and tell us what's wrong", instead of jeering.

There's plenty of scum around but there are more better people. The problem is that the scum are more vocal and like attracting attention to themselves.

I loved living in Ireland, it will always be special to me and be my home country, that doesn't make me a crazed, flag-waving, foaming at the mouth patriotic nationalist.

Karl Hungus

r3nu4l wrote:

I loved living in Ireland, it will always be special to me and be my home country, that doesn't make me a crazed, flag-waving, foaming at the mouth patriotic nationalist.

That's exactly what I'm getting at with my previous post on the subject!

nice1franko

Self-loathing might be a bit strong but there are lots of people who are self-deprecating and just have no confidence in anything we, as a country, do.

It is a problem and it really grates me. I usually tear into anyone who does it.

I vote for Karl.

Exit

Karl Hungus wrote:

Ok, haven't bothered reading much of the responses in depth

Typical Irish attitude!

It's about the place where you grew up holding a special place in your heart. It's the same reason why your home isn't just a house like any other, it's your home, and that's something special. It's like that with Ireland (Or Galway to be specific), it feels homely, it feels special to me.

See, I do feel something for the place I grew up, but I wouldn't necessarily call it special. It'll always be my home, but for me, I don't think it's anything to be proud of. Maybe it's just where I come from (Coolock area, northside Dublin), maybe if I came from a nice small village, it'd be much more special.

Likewise, we're one of the filthiest countries out there. I think if people didn't think so poorly of the place, if they had more pride in the place, if they thought it was their home instead of just some rock, they wouldn't treat it like a garbage dump. I think Japan was easily the cleanest place I've ever been to, and they're a very nationalistic people.

See, I think we're on the same wavelength here. You have a problem with people putting Ireland down. Well, you just did it there. See, sometimes it deserves to be put down. The people who are putting it down aren't usually the problem. The people who put it down are doing it because they see something about the country that they don't like. I would be proud of Ireland if it was clean, if there was more civic and community pride and if people were generally more friendlier towards each other. But I don't see any of that.

Here, swans are put into a lake in a park, a week later someone has killed them with a pellet gun. Here, a new community centre is built to service a neighbourhood, the next day it's covered in graffiti. Here, somebody is standing next to a litter bin and throws their bottle on the ground. I'd like to have pride in my community but it's really hard when the local park has no benches because they've been taken out due to teenage drinking or when you hear yet another stolen car bombing it down the street or when somebody is stabbed for a mobile phone that is later found smashed on the ground further on down the road or when the fire brigade are stoned for trying to help people. I could go on and on.

You're right. There is zero respect for people here and zero respect for people's property. That's why I have no pride for this place, and I don't see why I particularly should. I'll be moving to Canada next year because that's a place where I do see civic pride, where people are very friendly to their neighbours and strangers on the street.

Terry

Exit wrote:

You're right. There is zero respect for people here and zero respect for people's property. That's why I have no pride for this place, and I don't see why I particularly should. I'll be moving to Canada next year because that's a place where I do see civic pride, where people are very friendly to their neighbours and strangers on the street.

I see that as the easy way out.

That's a big part of the problem in Ireland.
People just say 'Oh, I hate this place. I'm leaving'.
Why not try to improve it?
If enough people try to improve things, then maybe we will see a change in attitude.

Exit

How do you change the attitudes of any of the people involved in the activities I outlined above? None of them care about other people, other people's property or their own neighbourhoods. There is an aspect of rebelliousness and lawlessness here and to be fair, it's not just an Irish thing. British society is just as bad. I don't know how any of it can be changed, and I don't believe anyone else does either.

Anyway, this isn't my prime reason for getting out. My girlfriend is Canadian and in a choice between the two countries, Canada wins for me.

Terry

The main point of my post wasn't aimed directly at you.
I should have worded it better. Sorry.

Anyway, the way to change attitudes is through shame.
It's not an overnight solution, but it is one way of changing the attitudes of some people. I know it won't work on everyone, but it will work on most.
Name and shame the scum and they will eventually change their ways.
It worked where I live.
Not the whole town, mind. Just my little part of it.

nice1franko

I'm bringing this thread up again because the Dunne v Martinez fight on Saturday night.

Some people think Dunne got what he deserved - some people have every sympathy for him. Either way, it's only a sporting event and still, it degenerates into "ireland is a nation of begrudgers" or we are "misreable, hating, negative, envious, money hungry people" (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53834271&postcount=47).

It's cropped up in numerous other posts over in the Boxing forum and was also mentioned in the pub I was in too.

If you find yourself with this nasty habit, make a conscious effort to put a stop to it!! Think before you open your mouth!!

Slow Motion

nice1franko wrote:

I'm bringing this thread up again because the Dunne v Martinez fight on Saturday night.

Some people think Dunne got what he deserved - some people have every sympathy for him. Either way, it's only a sporting event and still, it degenerates into "ireland is a nation of begrudgers" or we are "misreable, hating, negative, envious, money hungry people" (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53834271&postcount=47).

It's cropped up in numerous other posts over in the Boxing forum and was also mentioned in the pub I was in too.

If you find yourself with this nasty habit, make a conscious effort to put a stop to it!! Think before you open your mouth!!

There will always be begrudgers reglardless of which country you are in, I don't think we are any worse / better than anyone else, it's just that those with a chip on their shoulders always seem to be louder than those that don't. As for Bernard Dunne, I was and still am a huge fan, I was gutted that he lost and have faith that he will learn from the experience and come back a better boxer for it ! (I think now he might learn to keep his chin in !)

EdgarAllenPoo

nice1franko wrote:

I'm bringing this thread up again because the Dunne v Martinez fight on Saturday night.

Some people think Dunne got what he deserved - some people have every sympathy for him. Either way, it's only a sporting event and still, it degenerates into "ireland is a nation of begrudgers" or we are "misreable, hating, negative, envious, money hungry people" (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53834271&postcount=47).

You can't really have sympathy for a professional sportsperson (or team) they get paid to do what they do and they know the decision can go either way. Sure it sucks to lose but it's better than having a real job:)

On the whole "we've never had it so good" thing, the only difference the Celtic Tiger ever made to my family was that we got more for selling our house than we normally would have but then that was cancelled out by the price we paid for our new house.

The only people that really benefitted were large businesses not nurses and bus drivers(aside from wage agreements which in fairness had to be raised due to the cost of living).

There's another little peeve I have, economists are the most vile group of people known to man. They should be thrown screaming from helicopters in front of their families. Why? Because once they say something or publish a report the ordinary Joe Soap gets hit in the pocket.

They appear on the news and say the price of oil may rise, next day every petrol station has upped their prices.

They say the cost of living will rise and then a week later the shops charge more because people expect to have to pay more and they can get away with it because the economists said it would happen.

Same thing with the housing market, it's not really a slow down, it's just few people can afford a house and end up either renting or buying an appartment so while house building decreases apartment building increases but do we hear about that - no because then the economists wouldn't be seen to be right.

Sorry for the rant but I felt like I needed to get that out.

Sleepy

I'm not exactly proud of being Irish but I'm glad I am. I've had more benefits than 90% of the world because I was lucky enough to be born here.

The main thing that galls me in Ireland is our reluctance to fix the problems. Our recent financial success has almost happened in spite of the governments we've had rather than because of them. The mismanagement of such a successful economy and it's rewards (i.e. high tax income) and the reluctance of people smart enough to do something about it (by first providing a real alternative to FF and secondly getting out and voting them out of government) is what gets me.

The answer to scumbags is found in our education system yet it's relatively underfunded.

Slow Motion

Sleepy wrote:

The main thing that galls me in Ireland is our reluctance to fix the problems. Our recent financial success has almost happened in spite of the governments we've had rather than because of them. The mismanagement of such a successful economy and it's rewards (i.e. high tax income) and the reluctance of people smart enough to do something about it (by first providing a real alternative to FF and secondly getting out and voting them out of government) is what gets me.

Have you been listening to me ranting in the pub ?

K-9

Sleepy wrote:

The mismanagement of such a successful economy and it's rewards (i.e. high tax income) and the reluctance of people smart enough to do something about it (by first providing a real alternative to FF and secondly getting out and voting them out of government) is what gets me..

If we reduce income tax how do we fund better health and education systems? The countries that have good systems are higher taxed. Can't see how Ireland can buck the trend.

It's like saying I want a better car or a new house. I know, I'll save less, that'll get me it.

People can't have low taxes and excellent public services. Its a contradiction.

Seriously if you want lower taxes and better services, well I don't think you'll ever be happy!

Raskolnikov

I'm not that old but I would consider myself very well travelled at this stage.

It seems to me, that the more citizens of a country have, the more they complain. I'd consider myself an average earner living in an average area of suburbia. I look at what I've got. I have a world class education that I paid little or nothing for. I have a well paying job that is secure and satisfying. I can afford to take two foreign holidays a year and numerous weekend breaks. The health system isn't great, but like a lot, I have health insurance. Despite having a lifestyle that is the envy of 95% of the world, I constantly beguile the state of affairs here and bitterly complain at the most minor of grievances.

The thing which irks me about the moaners is when the claim XXX country is vastly superior despite the fact many of them have never even travelled there. People talking about our "dreadful" climate annoys me as well. Try sitting in a car in Boston with your shirt soaked in sweat thanks to 100% humidity. What about being locked up inside your heated car/home for several months of the year in Toronto at Winter? Then there's Australia with heat so unbearable you'd break out in a sweat after walking a few metres down the road.

EdgarAllenPoo

I never complain about "bad" weather, I hate warm/hot weather so I don't mind that aspect of living here. I wish it would snow more.

GabrielJonquin

masseyno9 wrote: »

Agree with all except the bit about people in the states etc being 'irish.' It just seems to me (from personal experience) that they all seem to want to have an identity separate to their nationality. John is half polish half viatnamese, bethany's parents had irish grandparents so she's Irish...? First or second generation I will accept that they can call themselves Irish, but after that they're American/Canadian/whatever. They may have Irish roots, but they're not Irish. I'm not saying people shouldn't know their roots, but to go around saying you're Irish when clearly you're not is just pointless.

Something that just occurred to me; Aussies nearly all have Irish/English roots somewhere down the line, but for some reason they almost always call themselves Aussies. Is it because they have a national identity? or are more proud of their country, and so don't try to find a new nationality/race to belong to?

Back to the point of begrudging Irish, and people putting the country down. Its only when you travel that you see how good Ireland is.

I have an explanation about the whole Irish-American identity.

Hyphenated-identity is a hallmark of the American experience in many non-Anglo comunities here, starting with the Irish back in the 18th century....the Irish (mostly indentured servants, sailors, mercenaries) coming to the colonies identified themselves as being Irish, and so did the Scots. In the 19th century the Italians, Poles, Jews, Germans, etc. did the same. Living in any east coast metropolis, it was a way to stay tribal, and it's a practice that continues today, among Brazilians, Guatamalians.

The Irish still do it. In fact, here's the curious thing for the "pure" Irish (those with an Irish passport) to consider. As they have for 300 years, and continue to this very day, the Irish come to America - and many of them settle in Irish enclaves in New York, Boston, Chicago, etc. They cling to their own identity - wave the tri-color, go to GAA games, traditional music events, Catholic church-activities. They insist on their "Irishness" and pass that along to their children and grandchildren. So right there you have three generations of Irish people living in America insisting that they're Irish!

I would venture to say that it is the Irish temperment itself, and the Irish inclinations to nationalism, that has created the Irish-American going back so many generations. You can meet an Irish person anywhere in America who has been out here 30, 40, 50 years, and they'll consider themselves, and their entire off-spring, to be Irish, or Irish-Americans. Why is that??

Dyr

Something else to bear in mind is while ireland has changed massively in the last hundred years, the irish american "identity" has probably remained the same. They're probably more irish than us in that sense.

Just like the way the english might snigger at american use of their language and spelling yet its generally of an older vintage than modern english.

Latchy

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

"Coz its the best bloody country in the world, thats why!":p

and they are not ashamed to sing about it either :P

I am australian

''we are one ,but we are many and from all the lands on earth we come ,we'll share a dream ,and sing with one voice, i am ,you are ,we are australian ''

Munya

Well they do acknowledge the Irish ethnicity when they say we're all ugly and immigrants will fix that

kraggy

Hogmeister B wrote: »

Spain, similarly to Ireland, has emerged in the last couple of decades from economic desolation into better times. They have ever-expanding- and extremely cheap and well-designed- metros in their major cities (including Bilbao and Palma de Majorca) as well as high-speed rail lines. Seems to me like a country can indeed "go from having a third class infrastructure to having an infrastructure that the whole world is jealous of" within a decade or two.

If that country has the population to finance the capital payment to build it in the first place and maintain it in the guise of passenger numbers when it's built.

This issue comes up constantly. This and other issues such as "why should we have to pay a tv license AND have to put up with ads on RTE?"

It's because we're an island nation with a very small population and we have to pay a little extra for some things.

Sure, Dublin is smaller than Madrid and so the underground needed wouldn't be as extensive but there's still the initial dig, equipment rental etc needed to build it. Thus, the cost would not be a direct fraction/percentage of the cost of a Madrid underground.

We're out here on our own on the periphery of Europe and while it's nice to have our own space, we have to pay for that comfort sometimes.

Munya

masseyno9 wrote: »

Agree with all except the bit about people in the states etc being 'irish.' It just seems to me (from personal experience) that they all seem to want to have an identity separate to their nationality. John is half polish half viatnamese, bethany's parents had irish grandparents so she's Irish...? First or second generation I will accept that they can call themselves Irish, but after that they're American/Canadian/whatever. They may have Irish roots, but they're not Irish. I'm not saying people shouldn't know their roots, but to go around saying you're Irish when clearly you're not is just pointless.

You want them to have pretend they have no ethnicity

The thing which irks me about the moaners is when the claim XXX country is vastly superior despite the fact many of them have never even travelled there. People talking about our "dreadful" climate annoys me as well. Try sitting in a car in Boston with your shirt soaked in sweat thanks to 100% humidity. What about being locked up inside your heated car/home for several months of the year in Toronto at Winter? Then there's Australia with heat so unbearable you'd break out in a sweat after walking a few metres down the road.

But that's YOUR opinion. Just because you like the climate here doesn't mean everyone else has to. It's a bit condescending to assume none of the people who moan about Irish weather have been or lived abroad. I'd say I wouldn't mind the weather here as much if I hadn't been to other countries and realised how much nicer it is to wake up to a blue sky and loads of light instead of clouds and rain every day. I've lived in Andalusia (inland) so I know what it's like to live with heat/humidity. No, 40 degree weather isn't pleasant, but that's a few months in the summer, then the rest of the year is lovely. It gets cold in winter, but barely ever rains and it's still sunny and light. I've also lived in New York City and love the fact they get seasons there - yeah summer is very muggy and winter is really really cold, but for me it beats all year round grey skies and drizzle. I love knowing what the weather will be like when I walk out of the front door, not like here when it changes about 4 times a day, and you end up boiling in tights and boots or freezing in flip flops. Good for you if you like the weather but acting like there's nothing to complain about is taking it a bit far, IMO.

Phlann

You wouldn't see threads like this in Sweden

beautiation

Sorry, how is it self-loathing not to be patriotic? My identity has nothing to do with the place I was born, I'm plenty happy thanks.

Phlann

beautiation wrote: »

Sorry, how is it self-loathing not to be patriotic? My identity has nothing to do with the place I was born, I'm plenty happy thanks.

Personally I view patriots the way atheists view creationists.

SimpleSam06

kraggy wrote: »

be as extensive but there's still the initial dig, equipment rental etc needed to build it. Thus, the cost would not be a direct fraction/percentage of the cost of a Madrid underground.

Most of the London underground currently in use was dug by 19th century machines and manual labour, thats how hard it is. There is no excuse for Irish infrastructure, not one.

beautiation

Phlann wrote: »

Personally I view patriots the way atheists view creationists.

+1 to that. We have a good standard of living here and a good culture, but to be proud of that as if it's your own achievement is just ridiculous. I couldn't stand to be limited to regarding one place as my home all my life, it just seems such an insular mindset. There's so much more to see then Ireland, and if you go exploring with an open mind you'll almost definitely find somewhere you like more.

Poccington

I consider myself a patriot but I also that there's a 99% chance I'd find better places to live than Ireland.

However, I still love this place to death for the simple reason, it's what made me. All the major experiences in my life happened here, both good and bad. I grew up in Finglas and still remember fondly the way people would do anything to help each other out. Sure there was a bit of trouble now and again but it was all part of growing up. That place has changed since I was small, scumbags seem more prevalent but I believe there's still plenty of good left in the place. Even seeing tourists during the summer, just watching how much they enjoy being in the country..... I'm happy to see that this country is something people actually want to visit and explore. Even outside of the city, there is so many beautiful places to visit and lots of different types of people to meet. This country means everything to me because if it was not for this place, I wouldn't be me.

That's why I can go into work every morning, see the Tricolour sitting on my arm and be glad it's there.

OK-Cancel-Apply

beautiation wrote: »

Sorry, how is it self-loathing not to be patriotic? My identity has nothing to do with the place I was born, I'm plenty happy thanks.

Exactly. Why should anyone have a 'built-in' allegiance to either their place of birth or their ethnicity? To me that's just tribal mentality. Nothing about having been born here impacts my desires, what I stand for, or my allegiance to anybody. What would we expect of people born here of parents from other countries? A guy I went to school with had English parents, but he never professed his 'Englishness', nor did he feel any attachment to the place. What's his ethnicity? Should we start tracing everyone's DNA so that we can divide ourselves back into Pict, Celt, Saxon, Norman and Viking? To me, Ireland is just a place. Nothing special. Just were I was born. Hell, I was ALMOST born in Soviet Russia, but that's a different story!

GabrielJonquin

Bambi wrote: »

Something else to bear in mind is while ireland has changed massively in the last hundred years, the irish american "identity" has probably remained the same. They're probably more irish than us in that sense.

Just like the way the english might snigger at american use of their language and spelling yet its generally of an older vintage than modern english.

That's true - plus a lot of the Irish who have defined "Irishness" in America for the past half century emigrated in the late 40s and 50s, many of them were rural and Catholic, listening to Carmel Quinn and Bing Crosby. They've kept alive that particular brand of "Irishness" of their youth and passed it along to their children and grandchildren.

I've noticed that a lot of the "new" Irish who come to the states even mock their fellow Irish who came out a generation or two earlier than they did, as being embarassingly old-fashioned. Yet the ones who came out in the 50s really provided a welcome mat and always looked out for the newcomers. I don't think you can say the same thing about this generation.

Poccington

GabrielJonquin wrote: »

I don't think you can say the same thing about some of this generation.

Fixed that for ya

Acid_Violet

Karl Hungus wrote: »

It's just amazing how many different cultures consider themselves unique and distinct, yet to many Irish people, the very thought is ridiculous, possibly even repulsive. I just don't get it.

In some way (the expression 'some way' being key) I'd blame the Brits:p. If you look at our history during the seven centuries of being oppressed, we were treated as a subordinate species by them, like the Jews of Western Europe, you could say, and our culture suffered greatly (penal laws anyone?) Even though this usually strengthens a people's identity and will to fight the powa, I suppose you could say that it didn't last long afterwards. The fact that there was no difference in the colour of our skin with that of the Brits, or any real differences between us (apart from religion and wealth in the time gone by) would've caused that there was no stark contrast between us and them, thus possibly resulting in our loss of identity. Not saying it's a very well-founded argument, just there might be something to it.

Acid_Violet

Phlann wrote: »

Personally I view patriots the way atheists view creationists.

It's very easy to knock patriotism when in our world today, the irish have nothing to be patriotic about. Patriotism has always been equated with war, the way I see it is Patriotism is love for one's current state of being (ie. their culture, their liberties etc.) which supposedly is made available in one's country, so the expression 'I love my culture and the way my civil rights are provided to me here' becomes 'I love my country'. What's so wrong with that?

The reason why people would go to war over patriotism (by my understanding of it) is because their liberties/culture etc are being taken away from them, and this deprivation of one's rights and culture can only be achieved by the enforcement unjust laws or violence, in which case retaliation is self-defence or very well justified.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Do you mean 'self-loating' or 'national-loathing'? I think this country is an arrogant waste of space full of conformist nutjobs, that's national. I don't loathe 'myself' though.

Poccington

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Do you mean 'self-loating' or 'national-loathing'? I think this country is an arrogant waste of space full of conformist nutjobs, that's national. I don't loathe 'myself' though.

Care to explain your opinion? Even just a little bit?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Poccington wrote: »

Care to explain your opinion? Even just a little bit?

Sure.

There's an air of arrogance that if something is Irish it's automatically better and more important than everything else. We think we're a modern European country, for example, but we can't even put in a decent transport system. We think our pubs, music and culture is better than everyone elses.

As for the conformist notjob bit; there's see the thread about controversial opinions. Specifically, how best to deal with criminals. You couldn't get more Orwellian.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

explanations are conformist

Adam

Princess Innocent Knickers wrote: »

explanations are conformist

Why?

:pac:

GabrielJonquin

Poccington wrote: »

Fixed that for ya

You're right, thanks for that!

meglome

Have to say I agree with you 100% there Karl. I love this country even though it pisses me off sometimes. I love Dublin but I'm sick to death of junkies on every street in the city centre. I sick to death of so many of the little things not being fixed or right. Yet I still love it.

Cianos

I disagree with you Karl, because the whole need for people to identify themselves with a 'nation' is flawed to begin with. It's an idea we're sold as soon as we're old enough to understand it. Like every other country, "Ireland" is just an idea in peoples heads!

Sherifu

Ireland is grand if you mind the odd shower.

|-*SxyDubGrrl93*-| wrote: »

explanations are conformist

Lol @ the new name.