Why is this the situation with buying council housing?

seahorse

Am just curious as to people’s opinions on this: If a person buys their home under one of the affordable housing schemes, as we all know, they pay a discounted price; but if a person buys a council home, from FCC for example, they get the option to buy after the first year and a 3% discount for every year they’ve been resident in it. That 3% is applicable for every year of rental for the first ten years, so after ten years you’re talking 30%, and it stops there, which is fair enough.

What I’m wondering is, why don’t the councils allow their tenants to purchase their homes with the 30% discount from the off rather than having them wait ten years? It’s a far smaller reduction than is the case in a lot of houses sold under the affordable housing schemes, and if a person is granted a council house to begin with of course they’re not in the financial position to buy on the open market.

As for the people housed by the councils ten years ago; God help them trying to buy their homes by today’s inflated prices, as the 30% knocked off the asking price will be neither here nor there to them taking the rise in property prices that have happened over the last decade into consideration.

I think the ten year wait is also a bad idea in terms of how it affects a person in getting a mortgage from the banks as they’re then ten years older and less likely to qualify for a more extended mortgage, which taking their financial situation into consideration, they're more likely to need.

antoinolachtnai

Because it's public housing. Public housing is not necessarily supposed to be the first step on the property buying ladder. It's supposed to put a roof over the head of a person who wouldn't otherwise be able to get one.

A lot of people would say that selling off public housing is just not a good idea. The council will need that housing again in the future, and you can only sell it once.

seahorse

I'm sure the people who live in them don't regard their own homes as some sort of "public" amenity. I know I wouldn't if I lived in a council house.

One young couple I know were housed by the council about five or six years ago. He got a half decent job soon after they were housed; she was minding their new baby at the time. Their daughter is starting senior infants in a couple of weeks and her mother has been working part time this last year since their child began her first year of school. They're in a position to get a mortgage now, but their reduction on their home is only 15/18%. 15/18% of the full market price is nothing compared to the deal they'd get in an affordable house, but they don't want to move because they don't want to be forced to disrupt their little girls schooling. That's the only home that child has ever known and all her friends are there.

It was hard enough for my friend settling miles away and building a life in an area where she knew nobody, miles away from family and friends, and now she has to disrupt her child and her whole life to move again if she wants to buy. These are the types of situations I'm talking about when I say I don't understand the sense in the councils regulations as they currently stand. I know my friend would take a mortgage out on her home in a moments notice if it offered anything like the same deal as an affordable housing scheme.

Slydice

If he can afford to get a mortgage, would he not think about buying a house and giving the council house back to the council so they can give the house to a family less fortunate than them?

Jo King

This is typical of the dependency culture rampant in this country. People can't or won't do anything unless they can maximise the "free" money from the government. People who have done nothing to house themselves but sign an application form and a lease now want a house sold to them at a substantial discount! Other people who have large mortgages and pay a lot of tax have to subsidise this nonsense. If people's fortunes improve after they are allocated a council house they should be turfed out of it and made to live in the real world.

seahorse

Slydice wrote:

If he can afford to get a mortgage, would he not think about buying a house and giving the council house back to the council so they can give the house to a family less fortunate than them?

No, they wouldn't, unsurprisingly; as the mortgage they can now afford would probably buy them a one bedroom apartment on the open market.

seahorse

Jo King wrote:

This is typical of the dependency culture rampant in this country. People can't or won't do anything unless they can maximise the "free" money from the government. People who have done nothing to house themselves but sign an application form and a lease now want a house sold to them at a substantial discount! Other people who have large mortgages and pay a lot of tax have to subsidise this nonsense. If people's fortunes improve after they are allocated a council house they should be turfed out of it and made to live in the real world.

If 'these people' didn't live in a world more real and more harsh than the one most first home-buyers experience they wouldn't find themselves renting council homes in the first place. Many people "sign an application" and spend upwards of ten years raising their children in damp and squalid conditions in two-roomed hovels while working for buttons and waiting on the remote possibility of a home. I should know; I once lived there myself.

People fortunate enough to hold opinions as ignorant as yours ought to count themselves lucky: Maybe it's time you spent some time in the "real world" yourself.

K_P

So their choice is a house at a 15-18% discount or move to an affordable housing unit and getting a 25-30% discount. Seems like a pretty good deal for your friends whatever way you look at it.

There are thousands of FTBs struggling to scrape together enough of a deposit and desperately trying to qualify for enough of a mortgage to buy a place. Everyone's struggling, myself included. If I was getting a 15-18% discount on a purchase price, you wouldn't hear me complaining.

Another option, they could wait another 4 or 5 years. With the way prices are going at the moment, they might have the full 30% discount and a cheaper selling price.

antoinolachtnai

The OP does have a point though. What exactly is the local authorities' plan with all this housing. Why build new houses to sell at a 30 percent discount when you are only willing to sell existing houses at a 15 or 20 percent discount? Is there a plan or are they just making this up as they go along?

K_P

It's all a result of successive governments pushing owner occupation above all other and to the detriment of all other forms of tenure. But I agree, it seems ridiculous.

foxy06

Jo King wrote:

This is typical of the dependency culture rampant in this country. People can't or won't do anything unless they can maximise the "free" money from the government. People who have done nothing to house themselves but sign an application form and a lease now want a house sold to them at a substantial discount! Other people who have large mortgages and pay a lot of tax have to subsidise this nonsense. If people's fortunes improve after they are allocated a council house they should be turfed out of it and made to live in the real world.

Are you for real? I live in a council estate and was waiting for 6 years for a home of my own. I have spent a fortune making it liveable all at my own expense and hard work. I wont be able to afford to buy it for at least 5 years but by then I will have paid 26,000 Euro in rent to the council as well as the taxes myself and my partner pay through paye. NOBODY is subsidising me! I was paying 3 times as much in rent before and often had to get a credit union loan just to do the weekly shop and pay for childcare! If you think living in a council estate is easy you are on another planet altogether. I would love to live in a private estate where I can let my kids out to play instead of confining them to the back garden for fear of them turning into little brats like the ones haging around outside. But that is the real world and you obviously haven't a clue about it.

PeakOutput

foxy06 wrote:

Are you for real? I live in a council estate and was waiting for 6 years for a home of my own. I have spent a fortune making it liveable all at my own expense and hard work. I wont be able to afford to buy it for at least 5 years but by then I will have paid 26,000 Euro in rent to the council as well as the taxes myself and my partner pay through paye.

everyone/most people pay rent or a mortgage everyone who has a job pays paye HOWEVER you benefit from everyones paye whereas everyone does not benefit from yours as they are not entitled to / dont need council housing or affordable housing or whatever. im not saying you are not entitled to it it jsut sticks in my throat when people complain that they are not getting enough "free"/"cheap"/"reduced" benefits

NOBODY is subsidising me! I was paying 3 times as much in rent before

thats a contradiction in terms

edit; also that 26K in rent you will have paid by the time you can afford to buy is a fraction of the reduction you will get off the house as even if you have just moved in in 5 years you will have a 15% discount which on a 200K house is 30K and I have not seen a house for 200K in quite a while so you will likely get a much better discount. thats not even taking into account the obviously miniscule rent compared to the free market you are paying at the moment.

foxy06

Oh right so the money we pay in tax is for what exactly? Tax is not just used for council housing there is an education system and healthcare system that also uses it. I'm sure my tax is getting used for something.

And its not a contradiction because the house I was in before was at least twice the size and in a much nicer area so the rent on this house is relevent to its size and will be increased if I earn more money. Also when I moved in it was barely habitable and if and when I decide to buy it I would be very suprised if it was more expensive than 230,000 because it is so small.

foxy06

Also that 26,000 is what I will be paying in the future not what I have already paid.

PeakOutput

foxy06 wrote:

Oh right so the money we pay in tax is for what exactly?

ye sorry just re read what i wrote about the tax and your right everyone benefits from everyones tax people who are on benefits /social housing just benefit more but there are obviously sound reasons for this.

And its not a contradiction because the house I was in before was at least twice the size and in a much nicer area so the rent on this house is relevent to its size and will be increased if I earn more money.

26K rent over 5 years is 5,200 euro a year which is 433.33 a month. in dublin(maybe your not in dublin) student accomadation is dearer than that. for that according to daft you will get a 2 bed apartment in clonakilty in cork. everything else on daft other than student accom is more expensive that what you are paying as far as i can see from my very quick search. again im not saying your not entitled to it i just dont think you should be trying to imply you have gotten a raw deal

Also when I moved in it was barely habitable and if and when I decide to buy it I would be very suprised if it was more expensive than 230,000 because it is so small.

are you really trying to argue that you will not be in a better position if/when you go to buy your house than another first time buyer of the same age who has not lived in a council house for the last however many years you have?

foxy06

No financially I will be in a better position but socially do you honestly think I will be better off raising my family in a council estate?
The rent does work out at 433.33 but when I earn a cent more it goes up.
What really annoys me is when people post things like when your financial situation improves you should be turfed out! It's just that easy to get up and go after putting years of work into your home and building a relationship with the community around you. I am a lot better off now than when I was renting privatly but this is my only chance now to get on the property ladder by buying my house and surely I'm entitled to that and anyone who knows the struggles I've had financially in the past few years will agree.

Off topic slightly but I have a friend who is raising her two children alone with benefits and has to lie to welfare saying her rent is 1200 euro a month when it is actually 1400 because you simply cant get accomadation for that price in this area. She has a boy and a girl and she only has two bedrooms. If she works and pays a babysitter they take her earnings from her rent allowance so she CAN'T earn any money to pay her own way. She will be no better off until she gets a house from the council and she has been told it will be at least 3 years.
Unless you have been stuck in the poverty trap you have no idea how hard it is.

seahorse

foxy06 wrote:

No financially I will be in a better position but socially do you honestly think I will be better off raising my family in a council estate?

That is something it wouldn't dawn on a lot of people who've never had to raise their kids in yahoo-land to consider Foxy; they don't consider the trade off between social and financial gain and loss, because they've been fortunate enough never to have had personal experience of it.

Some people entertain the notion that buying a council home is like winning some sort of lottery; they'd want to think on. If I were to choose between buying a home at full market value in a private estate which I'd been renting for ten years, or buying a home in a council estate I'd been renting for ten years at a 30% percent discount, I know where I'd prefer to raise my son and I'm pretty sure I know where you'd prefer to raise your kids; and for all their mouthing, you can be certain the people who look down their noses on council tenants would feel exactly the same way when it comes to where they'd prefer to raise their own.

foxy06 wrote:

Unless you have been stuck in the poverty trap you have no idea how hard it is.

How true; and on top of all the other aspects of the poverty trap that are so difficult to deal with, there is the stigma of middle-class public opinion that contends you are some sort of layabout scrounger, which is so extreme that some even hold the opinion, as evidenced on this thread, that should your fortunes improve you ought to be "turfed out" of your own home!!!

A good deal of council tenants are single mothers. There are 180.000 single parent families in this country and I am sick to the gills hearing people run down single mothers; at least the Americans have a term for the men who are 50% responsible for this situation - 'deadbeat dads'; a very apt term, that doesn't exist in Irish terminology, unfortunately.

SkepticOne

Social housing should be kept as social housing and not be sold. If it is sold then it is unavailable to those in genuine social need.

So-called "Affordable housing" schemes and inititatives should also be scrapped. They serve no social purpose.

If, however, valuable state assets must sold, they should be sold at full market value so that replacement units can be built.

PeakOutput

SkepticOne wrote:

So-called "Affordable housing" schemes and inititatives should also be scrapped. They serve no social purpose.

i disagree..........the process/system should be changed but they do indeed benefit society

Cantab.

foxy06 wrote:

No financially I will be in a better position but socially do you honestly think I will be better off raising my family in a council estate?

You've been given a roof over your head for you and your family. What more do you expect from the taxpayer?

foxy06 wrote:

The rent does work out at 433.33 but when I earn a cent more it goes up.
What really annoys me is when people post things like when your financial situation improves you should be turfed out! It's just that easy to get up and go after putting years of work into your home and building a relationship with the community around you. I am a lot better off now than when I was renting privatly but this is my only chance now to get on the property ladder by buying my house and surely I'm entitled to that and anyone who knows the struggles I've had financially in the past few years will agree.

You'll find it impossible to rent a house for €433.33 anywhere in Dublin. What are you complaining about? I pay €600 a month for a ROOM in a shared house. If I had a large family, I'd be looking at €1,500 - €2,000 for a modest house in suburbia.

foxy06 wrote:

What really annoys me is when people post things like when your financial situation improves you should be turfed out! It's just that easy to get up and go after putting years of work into your home and building a relationship with the community around you. I am a lot better off now than when I was renting privatly but this is my only chance now to get on the property ladder by buying my house and surely I'm entitled to that and anyone who knows the struggles I've had financially in the past few years will agree.

No you're not entitled to own your own home. You're entitled to a roof over your head, food, warmth, safety and security. Ownership of an asset worth several hundred thousand Euro is a privilige, not an entitlement, that people must work bloody hard for.

foxy06

Cantab. wrote:

You've been given a roof over your head for you and your family. What more do you expect from the taxpayer?


You'll find it impossible to rent a house for €433.33 anywhere in Dublin. What are you complaining about? I pay €600 a month for a ROOM in a shared house. If I had a large family, I'd be looking at €1,500 - €2,000 for a modest house in suburbia.

I am a bloody taxpayer!!! and I work bloody hard for my home too!! If I was off on the piss five nights a week I would understand what you are saying but I have been working hard since I was 13 years old (I am 25 now) and I have paid 1300 euro in rent every month for the last 3 years and 1100 a month for the 3 years before that and have often had to do without the basic essentials because we just didn't have it and now that I am in a council house I am entilted to buy it because I have put my heart and soul into making it a home for me and my kids and I struggle every day to make sure they are well looked after and its not that big a discount after a year of tenancy.

I am happy that you have your opinion because it means that you have never had to go through the hardships that me and my family and the majority of people that live on council estates have had to and I am happy for you. I bet there are thousands of people that wish they could argue the same thing in ignorance.

I can assure you that if my house was offered on the market for the discount i was getting it at they would be hard pushed for takers because no one wants to live in a council estate unless they have to. Just today I had to grab my children and bring them inside because one of the locals thought 4 in the afternoon was a nice time to go Joyriding.

No you're not entitled to own your own home. You're entitled to a roof over your head, food, warmth, safety and security. Ownership of an asset worth several hundred thousand Euro is a privilige, not an entitlement, that people must work bloody hard for.

I know its a privilage and that is why I am going to be paying a hell of a lot of money for it! It's not like they wrap it in a bow and hand it to you!! You do actually have to get a mortgage to pay for a house even in a place like this.

Cantab.

foxy06 wrote:

I am a bloody taxpayer!!! and I work bloody hard for my home too!! If I was off on the piss five nights a week I would understand what you are saying but I have been working hard since I was 13 years old (I am 25 now) and I have paid 1300 euro in rent every month for the last 3 years and 1100 a month for the 3 years before that and have often had to do without the basic essentials because we just didn't have it and now that I am in a council house I am entilted to buy it because I have put my heart and soul into making it a home for me and my kids and I struggle every day to make sure they are well looked after and its not that big a discount after a year of tenancy.

I am happy that you have your opinion because it means that you have never had to go through the hardships that me and my family and the majority of people that live on council estates have had to and I am happy for you. I bet there are thousands of people that wish they could argue the same thing in ignorance.

I can assure you that if my house was offered on the market for the discount i was getting it at they would be hard pushed for takers because no one wants to live in a council estate unless they have to. Just today I had to grab my children and bring them inside because one of the locals thought 4 in the afternoon was a nice time to go Joyriding.



I know its a privilage and that is why I am going to be paying a hell of a lot of money for it! It's not like they wrap it in a bow and hand it to you!! You do actually have to get a mortgage to pay for a house even in a place like this.

I'm sure you've been given a council house because you need one. I'm not disputing that. It's just in a previous post you said:

foxy06 wrote:

this is my only chance now to get on the property ladder by buying my house and surely I'm entitled to that

You're not entitled to own your own home. If you want to own your own home, you'll have to go out and work for it. The government should not be contributing to people's personal wealth by way of discounted council houses (and affordable houses).

foxy06

I am working for it I dont get it for free and If I was doing it for my own personal wealth I would have to wait for 20 years to make it worth my while because of the clawback clause. I don't want personal wealth I want a happy family and our own home that I Pay for.

PeakOutput

the difference is foxy you are arguing from a personal perspective while he is arguing from a general perspective. its not ignorance its just a different point of view. I agree with alot of what he says from a general for the greater good perspective but I have sympathy for people in your situation also.

one thing i will say is that assuming your circumstances did not change dramatically I dont see why you should be in social housing if you can afford to pay standard rents as you have been for the last five years or whatever. if you are simply doing it so you can save the extra money for a house i think thats bang out of order but then your circumstances could of changed aswell so im not making any personal judgements.

you used entitled in your post again your entitled to buy the home under the current system put in place by the government its not because of any ethical or moral or human right issue that you must be allowed to own your own home and that is what cantab was trying to say i believe. the very system that entitles you to buy your house is the same one that has created an area you dont want to live in.

you mention council estates alot and as far as i know they are on the way out anyway as it is well known they that areas of just social housing become gettoised however you seem to blame the area whereas i would blame the people (minority or not) who have a lack of respect for things they have not worked for. if all of the houses in your estate were offered for sale with the discount you can get they would be snapped up in a second as it is the people that make the area not the houses.

the main thing that strikes me from your posts is that almost everything you say is relative. you say you work really hard for your house and money and family and I am sure you do but you do not work any harder than someone with the same number of kids who earns 3 times as much as you but pays 3 times as much rent because they cannot get a council house (regardless of weather they want one or not) or indeed the person who earns 3 times as much but has 8 kids and still cant get a council house due to their income. these people would be relatively as "poor" as you. As these people would more than likely "begrudge" you of the fact you are getting so many benefits from the state, and still do not seem happy/satisfied with them and indeed ungrateful of the opportunities you have been given, you would view them as ignorant.

foxy06

I was about to write a big long reply but the gist of my argument is...

Why am I not entitled to a 3% (7500euro) discount when buying a house in a council estate that nobody else would want to buy and that I made habitable out of my own pocket?
If a private seller was having trouble selling they would probably drop the price by more than that? The main point I am making is that I AM PAYING FOR THE HOUSE I AM NOT GETTING IT FOR FREE!

Also I dont get any other benefits and I pay tax.

PeakOutput

foxy06 wrote:

Why am I not entitled to a 3% (7500euro) discount when buying a house in a council estate that nobody else would want to buy and that I made habitable out of my own pocket?

i dont particularly begrudge you the discount and never said otherwise.

however were the house is is irrelevant, if i am not mistaken, you get 3% for every year you have lived there off the MARKET VALUE of the property. the market value takes into consideration how many people do or do not want to live there.

If a private seller was having trouble selling they would probably drop the price by more than that? The main point I am making is that I AM PAYING FOR THE HOUSE I AM NOT GETTING IT FOR FREE!

you are paying up to 30% less than anyone else who wants that house would have to pay after having already benefitted from MUCH cheaper rent for that period of time and I(personally, not that you should particularly care what i personally feel) still dont begrudge you that.

What I have a problem with is you still somehow manage to make it sound like you have gotten a raw deal..........it is that simple.

foxy06

No I am paying 3% less than what other people are paying and I also lose any other benefits I had while I was paying the massive rent so financially I am no better off. And is 7500 off the market value of a council house that you will have to live in for at least 20 years or you will be seriously financially penalised a great deal? I think not. My Aunt actually owed the council money after paying them 8 years to BUY her house so don't ever worry about the council wasting taxpayers money. They could teach us a trick or two!

foxy06

PeakOutput wrote:

What I have a problem with is you still somehow manage to make it sound like you have gotten a raw deal..........it is that simple.

I don't think I have gotten a raw deal but when people who have no clue tell me I should be "turfed out" of my home and have no opportunity to buy it and should just get out to the real world then I take it personally because I know the real world better than most.

PeakOutput

foxy06 wrote:

No I am paying 3% less than what other people are paying and I also lose any other benefits I had while I was paying the massive rent so financially I am no better off.

you said yourself you wont be able to consider buying until at least 5 years time so at that stage you will have a 15% reduction worked up so i dont understand where you are getting this 3% from.

And is 7500 off the market value of a council house that you will have to live in for at least 20 years or you will be financially penalised a great deal? I think not.

even if it was only 7,500 it is 7,500 that 90% of people are not able to avail off now it is not alot but it is still more than anyone else can get

I don't think I have gotten a raw deal but when people who have no clue tell me I should be "turfed out" of my home and have no opportunity to buy it and should just get out to the real world then I take it personally because I know the real world better than most.

ok i can see were you are coming from then i suppose whereas I do think that the option to buy the house should be replaced with an option along the lines of affordable housing so the original house is kept as an asset for the next family that needs it.

dodgyme

foxy06 - if you get something from the council it is being subsidised by the taxpayer, thems the facts. It seems to me that the people replying to you are doing so because their houses are not being subsidised by the tax payer. As someone not from a rich background who is paying throught the nose to buy in a part of dublin where there aren't schools or decent public transport etec etc and where half the houses are rented (alot to Eastern healthboard) my tendency is to agree with those arguing against you. Although I think you are trying to do the right thing for you and your family and as such are in motive the same as me and anyone arguing against you.

antoinolachtnai

Why turf her out and displace a family? Why not rent the new affordable house to the next family that needs a house and let her buy the one she is in at a good discount?

Alternatively, if they really feel that it's a property they want to hold, why don't they just say so, and refuse altogether to sell it?

This isn't about the individuals involved, it's about the council's property strategy.