What If............Penalty Points question

Shuco · 20-08-2007 10:18am #1

Just wondering what would be situation if the following happened. Hasn’t happened to me yet but could at any time.

From what I can see, you can still receive summons for speeding up to 6 months after being caught.
If I received a summons for speeding in my car 5 months ago, it could happen that I honestly would know whether myself or my wife were driving.
In usual circumstances, points would go to the registered owner if they could not name who was driving. My car is registered in company name. What happens in this case?

keefg · 20-08-2007 10:28am

This happened all the time in my last job with the sales reps.

A letter is sent to the company address (reg owner) and they have to reply with the drivers info. The company will put your name down and send it back (which you sign) and you get a fixed penalty in the post.

Not sure what happens if the company doesn't name the driver - never seen that happen, I think by law they have to nominate someone to take the hit.

seamus · 20-08-2007 10:30am

I'm not 100% sure, but ultimately someone is responsible for the car - even if it's in a company name.

From what I understand, if the company can't say who was driving at the time (i.e. if they don't have a check-in/out log for the vehicles), then whoever's name is on the VLC gets the points.

I always thought however that "I don't know who was driving" was sufficient defence - provided that you can "prove" your car would be used a lot by different people.

Golferx · 20-08-2007 10:48am

A Company cannot be compelled to disclose the identity of a driver and cannot be penalised for failure to do so.

Shuco · 20-08-2007 11:03am

seamus wrote:

I'm not 100% sure, but ultimately someone is responsible for the car - even if it's in a company name.

From what I understand, if the company can't say who was driving at the time (i.e. if they don't have a check-in/out log for the vehicles), then whoever's name is on the VLC gets the points.

I always thought however that "I don't know who was driving" was sufficient defence - provided that you can "prove" your car would be used a lot by different people.

The name on VLC is Limited Company Name so therefore where can points go? Surely not the directors......
This car is family car, obviously I don't keep log of who's driving it so it could happen that I genuinely would not know whether it was myself or my wife.
One of the drivers of company vans received summons for "speeding" (think he was doing 50mph in a 40mph zone on 3 lane Dual Carriagway on Naas Road). In this case, we knew who was driving at the time and wrote it on summons. He received the points. I'm talking about a genuine case of not knowing who was driving at the time. (Whether we would have named the driver if we knew it didn't have to be done is another story)

jhegarty · 20-08-2007 11:14am

What happens if you don't know who was driving , but can prove it wasn't you (eg. passport stamped saying you where in the states)....

markpb · 20-08-2007 12:34pm

Shuco wrote:

The name on VLC is Limited Company Name so therefore where can points go? Surely not the directors......

Not sure about Ireland but in England that's definitely the cast. A regional chief of police has points on his license because they couldn't identify the driver of a marked car when it was caught speeding.

DublinDilbert · 20-08-2007 1:21pm

Yes as far as i know it is the company directors... don't think it has ever happened... also which director gets the points? as by law as limited company must have atleast 2 directors!

I guess the buck has to stop some where, cause every transport company could just use that as a loop hole, "errrrr we don't know who was driving that van/truck that day.... "

RobAMerc · 20-08-2007 1:31pm

Wasn't there some challenge to the legality speeding fines here ?

As you obliged to sign and return the form or face a fine, you are being pressured into incriminating yourself - which they cannot legally do.

Anyone know if this got off the ground or how it got on?

As for who should take them - 2 points is nothing so whoever gets them doesn't matter - next time one of you get caught the other user should take them.

After all marriage is about sharing no ?

MrPudding · 20-08-2007 1:38pm

RobAMerc wrote:

Wasn't there some challenge to the legality speeding fines here ?

As you obliged to sign and return the form or face a fine, you are being pressured into incriminating yourself - which they cannot legally do.

Anyone know if this got off the ground or how it got on?

As for who should take them - 2 points is nothing so whoever gets them doesn't matter - next time one of you get caught the other user should take them.

After all marriage is about sharing no ?

I know that in Scotland a number of people challenged points at the beginning using the arguement that having to fill in the form stating who was driving erroded their right to remain silent. That did not last long as a defense.

As another poster mentioned there has been a lot of hassle in the UK over vehicles shared by a pool of drivers. The long and the short of it is the points have to go somewhere, expect when the driver does not have a UK license, in which case nothing happens pointswise but the driver could get summoned to court.

There are people who will take points for you.....

MrP

Shuco · 20-08-2007 1:51pm

RobAMerc wrote:

Wasn't there some challenge to the legality speeding fines here ?

As you obliged to sign and return the form or face a fine, you are being pressured into incriminating yourself - which they cannot legally do.

Anyone know if this got off the ground or how it got on?

As for who should take them - 2 points is nothing so whoever gets them doesn't matter - next time one of you get caught the other user should take them.

After all marriage is about sharing no ?

Luckily, this is only a hypothetical question.........but it could very well occur some day.

On the subject of legality fines etc. My brother found himself in a very unfair situation.

He was caught speeding in May '06. Garda took details etc and said he would receive a fine which had to be paid etc etc..
In November, he received a summons for not paying the fine. He never received the fine. I spoke with Garda friend of mine who told him to go to Court, explain the story as it happened but problem is that if you go to court, & lose, you MUST get 4 points. My brother was not disputing the fact that he was speeding and was prepared to pay his fine and take his 2 points.
At the court, there were many people who did not receive their fines in post. The fines are no longer sent by registered post and obviously there was a cock up. Guards were fed up of situation because it happens regularly. Judge was p***ed off because it was wasting court time. Judge adjourned case until July because wanted to see what could be done.
In the opinion of my Garda friend, the only legal option was to strike out all of the cases or give 4 points. The Judge does not have discretion of giving original penalty of €80 plus 2 points.
When the case came up again in July, the judge was in a different mood.....gave anyone who attended the court €250 fine and anyone who didn't turn up €800. My brother still doesn't know how many points he'll receive. Some of the people up had solicitor's representing them. They got nowhere. judge wasn't prepared to listen to argument that people should have received fines in post originally.

Seems very wrong.......

Golferx · 20-08-2007 2:29pm

markpb wrote:

Not sure about Ireland but in England that's definitely the cast. A regional chief of police has points on his license because they couldn't identify the driver of a marked car when it was caught speeding.

Please. This is so ridiculous it's laughable. You really should research such a statement before you post such stuff. Please name and shame the person?

How , in any stretch of the imagination, could the director of a company with hundreds of vehicles be liable to get penalty points for every speeding offence on one of the company's fleet where a driver cannot be identified?

Are you saying the Director (s)/Chief Executive/Secretary, or whoever, of the ESB, could be liable for speeding offences by any of their vehicles?

Or, how about EIRCOM? IS some lad in Australia in danger of getting his licence revoked?

FFS, it would only take 7 offences from a fleet of potentially thousands, for one person to lose his licence, for something he didn't do?

Irish Legislation is so worded than only a "person" can be prosecuted for failing to identify the driver in a speeding prosecution. This "person" has to be the registered owner of the car. The Directors of a company have no obligation whatsoever to disclose the identity of a driver and face no penalty for failure to do so.

markpb · 20-08-2007 2:36pm

Golferx wrote:

Please. This is so ridiculous it's laughable. You really should research such a statement before you post such stuff. Please name and shame the person?

Subsection (11) provides that unless another person is identified by the registered owner as the driver, it will be assumed that the registered owner was driving the vehicle at the time of the occurrence of the alleged offence. This means that if a company cannot identify the driver who committed the offence, the registered owner of the company vehicle (which may be the company director or secretary) will be the one liable for the offence and who incurs the penalty points and pays the fine.

Linky Document is gone but there's a cache of it on Google.

crosstownk · 20-08-2007 2:38pm

I'd a situation a few years back similar to this. It was a tossup between to guys as to who was driving the car. Typically, both of them denied all knowledge. I rang the fines office (the number on the fine that arrived in the post) and was told that in the event that a driver could not be identified, then the company would be brought to court with the distinct possibility that a fine (circa €1000) could be dished out. Apparently, the company is responsible for keeping a record of who was driving what - first I'd heard of that. Now I don't know whether the person I spoke with was a Garda or not, but suffice it to say that I heard no more about it! As I said, that was a few years ago when a lot of fines weren't processed (or lost in the system somewhere).

But since then I've been keeping a log of who drives what.

Golferx · 20-08-2007 2:45pm

I asked to name and shame the supposed Chief Constable with the points on his licence!

@markpb

While you're GOOGLing, can you find one example of a Company Director who has penalty Points because of speeding in one of his company's vehicles?

What about somebody, like AIB, who have leased all their vehicles? The owner of the car is the Leasing company. Are you honestly trying to say a Director of the Leasing company could be liable for a speeding offence by an AIB employee?

MrPudding · 20-08-2007 2:45pm

Golferx wrote:

Please. This is so ridiculous it's laughable. You really should research such a statement before you post such stuff. Please name and shame the person?

I am not sure if the chief got points but it did get a huge amount of trouble over it. It was all over the news in the UK.

Golferx wrote:

How , in any stretch of the imagination, could the director of a company with hundreds of vehicles be liable to get penalty points for every speeding offence on one of the company's fleet where a driver cannot be identified?

The point is, you should not be in a position where you don't know who is driving you vehicles. I think the basis of it was that too many people were using the old company vehicle as a loophole for speeding. If the director of a company, or at least the fleet manager, gets the points if he can't identify the actual driver then, I am sure you will agree, it is in his best interest to keep accurate logs.

Golferx wrote:

Are you saying the Director (s)/Chief Executive/Secretary, or whoever, of the ESB, could be liable for speeding offences by any of their vehicles?

Or, how about EIRCOM? IS some lad in Australia in danger of getting his licence revoked?

FFS, it would only take 7 offences from a fleet of potentially thousands, for one person to lose his licence, for something he didn't do?

I don't know what the law is in Ireland. Like I said, it is a pretty good incentive for keeping records.

MrP

Golferx · 20-08-2007 2:47pm

crosstownk wrote:

I'd a situation a few years back similar to this. It was a tossup between to guys as to who was driving the car. Typically, both of them denied all knowledge. I rang the fines office (the number on the fine that arrived in the post) and was told that in the event that a driver could not be identified, then the company would be brought to court with the distinct possibility that a fine (circa €1000) could be dished out. ...............

IMO that was pure scaremongering.

markpb · 20-08-2007 2:47pm

Golferx wrote:

Are you honestly trying to say a Director of the Leasing company could be liable for a speeding offence by an AIB employee?

Are you honestly trying to say that the government left a huge gaping hole in the RT legislation by allowing anyone in a company car to evade penalty points?

I never said a director has been fined or given points, I said I thought, in the UK, that company directors are responsible for either naming the driver or accepting responsibility. Exactly the same as any other registered owner of a vehicle is responsible.

You do realise company directors have personal liability for lots of things? If you install counterfeit software on your work PC, both you and your boss are legally responsible. If someone has a work-related accident that could have been prevented, the company director can be personally responsible. There have been several instances in Ireland of company directors being served warrants to appear at a court case for work related accidents.

Golferx · 20-08-2007 3:00pm

markpb wrote:

Are you honestly trying to say that the government left a huge gaping hole in the RT legislation by allowing anyone in a company car to evade penalty points?

.................................

Yes!

markpb wrote:

............I never said a director has been fined or given points, I said I thought, in the UK, that company directors are responsible for either naming the driver or accepting responsibility. Exactly the same as any other registered owner of a vehicle is responsible.

.................................

You did say a Police Chief has points. Who ?

Shuco · 20-08-2007 3:24pm

markpb wrote:

Are you honestly trying to say that the government left a huge gaping hole in the RT legislation by allowing anyone in a company car to evade penalty points?

There obviously has been a major hole left in legistlation when someone can be brought to court and given 4 points/€250 fine simply because fixed penalty notice was not sent out. Surely these fines should be sent registered post. Someone made the argument to me that people can refuse to accept registered post when expecting a fine and this was reason for not sending fines by registered post. I can't see the current situation as being a solution to this problem. Why can't Garda give "speeding ticket" as before? Crazy........

crosstownk · 20-08-2007 3:24pm

Golferx wrote:

Are you honestly trying to say a Director of the Leasing company could be liable for a speeding offence by an AIB employee?

The leasing company will simply nominate the company and driver who are leasing the vehicle making, in you example, AIB responsible. There is a formal contract between the lessee and the lessor so it is highly unlikely that the leasing company would be held responsible.

Golferx · 20-08-2007 3:39pm

crosstownk wrote:

The leasing company will simply nominate the company and driver who are leasing the vehicle making, in you example, AIB responsible. There is a formal contract between the lessee and the lessor so it is highly unlikely that the leasing company would be held responsible.

With all due respect, that is all supposition.

According to the Law, the Registered Owner is supposed to identify the driver. In the case I hypothesized, the Leasing Company is the company who will be asked to identify the driver, not AIB. It doesn't matter what contracts exist between the Leasing Company and AIB .

markpb · 20-08-2007 3:42pm

Golferx wrote:

With all due respect, that is all supposition.

According to the Law, the Registered Owner is supposed to identify the driver. In the case I hypothesized, the Leasing Company is the company who will be asked to identify the driver, not AIB. It doesn't matter what contracts exist between the Leasing Company and AIB .

Would it not be reasonable to suppose that the leasing company, as registered owners, will have to pay the fine but will recoup it through their contract with AIB?

crosstownk · 20-08-2007 3:51pm

Golferx wrote:

With all due respect, that is all supposition.

According to the Law, the Registered Owner is supposed to identify the driver. In the case I hypothesized, the Leasing Company is the company who will be asked to identify the driver, not AIB. It doesn't matter what contracts exist between the Leasing Company and AIB .

I'm not sure, but you may have misread my post. What I stated is that the leasing company DO nominate the company who are leasing the vehicle. If there is a dispute as to who was driving on behalf of the client company, then that is the client company's problem and not the leasing company's.

In the event that no driver can be identified, the leasing company will not be held responsible. The legal leasing contract should absolve the leasing company of responsibility.

Golferx · 20-08-2007 4:02pm

markpb wrote:

Would it not be reasonable to suppose that the leasing company, as registered owners, will have to pay the fine but will recoup it through their contract with AIB?

The thread is about Penalty Points, my posts were about Penalty Points, why change the subject?

Golferx · 20-08-2007 4:10pm

crosstownk wrote:

I'm not sure, but you may have misread my post. What I stated is that the leasing company DO nominate the company who are leasing the vehicle. If there is a dispute as to who was driving on behalf of the client company, then that is the client company's problem and not the leasing company's.

In the event that no driver can be identified, the leasing company will not be held responsible. The legal leasing contract should absolve the leasing company of responsibility.

So Garda Jimmy sends summons to P Points Ltd, who then complete the form nominating XYZ Ltd as the driver?

Nah, it doesn't work like that.

The summons dies. It's a loophole and no person can get penalty points, if a car is registered to a Company and the driver cannot be identified.

(There was a famous case a few years ago, in England, when Manchester United refused to identify the driver of a car they had on lease, after it was spotted committing an offence. Nobody got any penalty points for that.)

markpb · 20-08-2007 4:13pm

Golferx wrote:

So Garda Jimmy sends summons to P Points Ltd, who then complete the form nominating XYZ Ltd as the driver? Nah, it doesn't work like that.

Have you got a link or is that supposition?

There was a famous case a few years ago, in England, when Manchester United refused to identify the driver of a car they had on lease, after it was spotted committing an offence. Nobody got any penalty points for that.

Got a link for this?

Golferx · 20-08-2007 4:21pm

Links?

Nah, you'll have to Google them for yourself!

crosstownk · 20-08-2007 4:22pm

Golferx wrote:

So Garda Jimmy sends summons to P Points Ltd, who then complete the form nominating XYZ Ltd as the driver?

Nah, it doesn't work like that.

Errm.............Yes it does. I work for a vehicle leasing company. We nominate companies and drivers every day of the week.

Golferx · 20-08-2007 4:38pm

crosstownk wrote:

Errm.............Yes it does. I work for a vehicle leasing company. We nominate companies and drivers every day of the week.

My point was that the system falls down if you fail to do so.

Why do you nominate drivers when you have no obligation to do so?

crosstownk · 20-08-2007 4:48pm

Golferx wrote:

My point was that the system falls down if you fail to do so.

Why do you nominate drivers when you have no obligation to do so?

I nominate drivers for one simple reason - they are the ones that commited the offence. It's not my job to get them off the hook, and, if such a loophole does indeed exist they can do it themselves. While I doubt it, it may well do - the example I stated earlier (post #14) could well be proof of your theory.

EDIT: @Golferx - this link is in support of your opinion > http://www.rte.ie/pda/news/2004/0928/1023241.html
Granted the article is 3 years old, and the situation may have been rectified since, but then again.......

What If............Penalty Points question

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