What If............Penalty Points question

Golferx

crosstownk wrote:

I nominate drivers for one simple reason - they are the ones that commited the offence. It's not my job to get them off the hook, ....................................

It's not your job, either, to convict the person you are nominating of a motoring offence, but you don't seem to mind that.


BTW, you have no "proof" the person you are nominating was actually the driver of the car at the time of the offence, I presume? Hardly fair, now, is it? I presume they are then guilty until proven innocent.



The process of forcing someone to nominate an errand driver is wrong. We have a system of Law which is supposed to do this. I know of people with points on their licence simply because they would not nominate the actual driver of the car.

Darragh29

I know someone who tried the "I can't remember who was driving that car" as a defence and had a photo of the driver (who turned out to be himself!), taken by the speed camera, produced in court as evidence. Got 4 penalty points and a 600 Euro fine...

JSPTD

I'm in very same situation as described by OP. Car registered in Company Name. Received speeding ticket after being caught by GATSO van. Unsure of who was driving.

1) Should I say that I don't know who was driving?
2) Should I toss a coin between myself and my Wife?
3) Should I say one of our Polish driver's was driving at the time and send copy of his Polish licence?

Blitzkrieger

Shuco wrote: »

if you go to court, & lose, you MUST get 4 points.

Was talking to a solicitor who was hoping somebody would take a case based on that point. If you contest a ticket and lose you automatically get a harsher punishment, but under European law it's illegal to punish someone for trying to prove they're innocent. If I had a few grand to spend on legal fees....

godtabh

JSPTD wrote: »

3) Should I say one of our Polish driver's was driving at the time and send copy of his Polish licence?

Your Polish driver wasnt driving

Sizzler

Sergei was doing a spot of painting for me and he nipped out to the shops in the car....sorry lads I dont know where he is now though

JSPTD

kearnsr wrote: »

You do know who was driving

Wrong!.........I'm 90% sure that I wasn't.

Your wife wasnt driving (is she even insured to do so?)

Wrong: She is insured and I'm 90% sure she was.

Your Polish driver wasnt driving

Right!

Gregor Samsa

Blitzkrieger wrote: »

Was talking to a solicitor who was hoping somebody would take a case based on that point. If you contest a ticket and lose you automatically get a harsher punishment, but under European law it's illegal to punish someone for trying to prove they're innocent. If I had a few grand to spend on legal fees....

Except it works the other way. The penalty for being caught speeding is 4 points. You get a 2 point deduction for not contesting. So the punishment isn't increased for going to court, it's decreased for not going. He won't be a very popular solicitor if he gets that policy removed.

Back to the original topic - the penalty point website says:

The Act also provides that unless another person is identified as the driver it will be assumed that the registered owner was driving the vehicle at the time of the occurrence of the alleged offence.

(http://www.penaltypoints.ie/faq.php#generalqueries : Q. What is a fixed charge?)

So this is saying that if you don't (or can't) explicitly identify another driver, the registered owner of the vehicle gets the points by default. I'm not sure how this affects companies/leased cars etc, but it seems to answer the question in regards to private cars.

godtabh

JSPTD wrote: »

Right!

Sorry I missed the unsure who was driving part. post edited

R.O.R

phutyle wrote: »

So this is saying that if you don't (or can't) explicitly identify another driver, the registered owner of the vehicle gets the points by default. I'm not sure how this affects companies/leased cars etc, but it seems to answer the question in regards to private cars.

From what I've been lead to understand, it is the Company Directors or Secretary who gets the points. If the car is registered to a leasing company then it is one of the Leasing Company directors who gets the points.

However, we did recently have a case go to court. The nomination had been filled in and the driver was willing to accept the points & fine, but the nomination went missing in the post. The Judge dismissed the case against the leasing company as it definately wasn't the leasing company speeding, as far as he is aware companies cannot drive and therefore cannot speed.

I wouldn't like to contest this on a regular basis though. Company policy here is to contact the driver of the vehicle and check it was them driving at the time, only ever had one person who wouldn't nominate as he said it wasn't him - but we got the photo in from the Gardai as conclusive proof.

Also had one where the driver's sister was over for the weekend from Mexico City (or at least that's what he told me), so I filled in her details and posted it back.

JSPTD

Some time ago, we sent back forms nominating drivers which resulted in them getting points. In this case, I'm not 100% sure as to who was driving although sure enough as not to cause a divorce in the house.
While trying to decide on what I must do, I enquired from two garda friends of mine to see if it would be possible to get clearer photo. Both of them put the idea of whether it was one of our Polish Employees driving. They said that in most cases it's only people who are being honest that are being screwed. People who lie through their teeth are getting away completely free.
One of them had a number of people in court last week with various excuses. They all got away with probation act........no points.
It's not right if we're not all playing by the same rules.

Golferx

R.O.R wrote: »

From what I've been lead to understand, it is the Company Directors or Secretary who gets the points. If the car is registered to a leasing company then it is one of the Leasing Company directors who gets the points.

.............................

I don't know who has told you that but it's 100% false.
How, in God's name, could "one of the Leasing Company directors" be liable for points on his/her license ? If that was the case then the directors of AVIS, EUROPCAR, HERTZ, or any of the Corporate Leasing companies would have been banned from driving long ago. It's such a ridiculous idea.

The Law as it's written is manifestly unfair in imposing penalty points on people who have done nothing wrong, they just happen to be the registered owner of a car. The principal of Law is supposed to be fairness with everyone supposed to be innocent until proven otherwise. This law is the opposite.

Please find me one, just one, reference to a Director of a Leasing company getting p points for a speeding offence in one of their cars?

Finally, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO FORCE A COMPANY TO IDENTIFY an errand driver. It's a loophole in the Law.

As for someone in Administration in a Leasing Company filling in details of drivers caught smacks of unfairness in my book. I wouldn't, in my conscience, hang anyone in such a way. Good Policing woul have such people stopped at the point and time of the infraction, not sending some sh1tty fine a few months down the line.

I would seek Legal advice about what you're doing. If my Leasing company did that, they would lose a customer.

R.O.R

Golferx wrote: »

I don't know who has told you that but it's 100% false.
How, in God's name, could "one of the Leasing Company directors" be liable for points on his/her license ? If that was the case then the directors of AVIS, EUROPCAR, HERTZ, or any of the Corporate Leasing companies would have been banned from driving long ago. It's such a ridiculous idea.

I was told this information by Directors of Corporate Leasing companies with the largest fleet in Ireland, 3rd largest Fleet in Ireland and where I am at the moment. This information dates back to meetings between the major leasing companies and the Gardai when the Penalty Points were introduced.

Clauses in the contracts between leasing companies and customers allow for the nomination of driver's for speeding offences, otherwise the leasing company would end up with all the fines and driver's would be getting off scot free.

Golferx

That was just scaremongering. No director of any company can be penalised. It cannot happen and it hasn't happened.

w.r.t. fines? I'd pass them on, if I was you, but I would not give any drivers' details.

R.O.R

Golferx wrote: »

That was just scaremongering. No director of any company can be penalised. It cannot happen and it hasn't happened.

w.r.t. fines? I'd pass them on, if I was you, but I would not give any drivers' details.

The back of the speeding fine has a nomination for who was driving at the time of the offence. After checking with who we think was driving at the time and confirming who was driving at the time, that nomination is filled in. The fine is then re-issued directly to the driver. Points are not applied at that point, and if the driver wants to contest the fine they can do. Only a name and address is supplied - not a driver's licence number.

Golferx

From http://audgen.irlgov.ie/documents/annualreports/2003/Chapter7.pdf.

Report from Comptroller and Auditor General

Detections involving company cars
The Gardaí reported that there had been 235 cases where vehicles intercepted were in company
ownership and where the penalty points accruing to the drivers of these vehicles could not be allocated to
specific driver files as nomination forms had not been received from companies in respect of the detected
offences.
I enquired as to how this situation has arisen with regard to drivers of company cars.
The Accounting Officer stated that under the penalty point system as set out in the Road Traffic Act
2002, payments can only be accepted where the payment is accompanied by the original Fixed Charge
Notice (the format of which is prescribed in Regulations) duly completed, including the driver’s licence
number. This is to ensure that penalty points are recorded on the driver licence record. The issue of
company vehicles was referred to the Office of the DPP by the Gardaí and his Office directed that
companies could not be prosecuted for a speeding offence, as it was a driver offence. Therefore, in
circumstances where a company, as the registered owner of a vehicle, ignores a nomination notice, a
summons is not issued by the Garda Fixed Penalty Office.

At the very end it points out the following difficulty

•
Inability to take appropriate action against drivers of company cars

So. If you fail to identify the driver of a company registered car, no penalty points may be imposed on any director or individual of the company.

JSPTD

So are you saying that I should bin the fixed notice or return it stating that I do not know who was driving at the time.
I spoke with solicitor about it. He asked how many points had probable driver got? I said none. He said I'd have to nominate somebody because, saying I don't know would not work. I felt that if driver had quite a few points, he would be prepared to look at it differently.

Golferx

He said I'd have to nominate somebody because, saying I don't know would not work. I felt that if driver had quite a few points, he would be prepared to look at it differently.

I fail to see what difference the number of points a driver has already accumulated makes.

If you are in admin in a Leasing company you do not know and could not be expected to know who was driving a particular vehicle at any given time.

Speed cameras are, in general, a lazy man's way of tackling a problem. I have a problem with the way the fines from them are being administered and I would have great difficulty in helping administer such a flawed system.

JSPTD

I know that the ammount of points held has nothing to do with it. I felt solicitor was thinking there's not much point in fighting it when there's no real risk of getting near losing licence time.

In this case, I'm director of company. Vehicle is registered in Company name. Either myself or my wife were driving it (Almost 90% sure that it was her). I've already nominated one employee and one brother on previous occasion when they were driving over the speed limit. I've been told by numerous people that I need not have done so. That's why I'm enquiring about this situation.

Jomcc

Golferx,
That report quoted is 2003 Annual report. Is there any fear that law has been corrected since 2003?